Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

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anajmi
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2221

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:12 pm

. Note that as Walker mentions, the very fact of performing nass is a validation of an Imam. Hence, an Imam can not pass away without designating a successor. (BTW: This does not mean, as Ahmed Ali Raj in a lecture implied, that an imam can't die if he has not appointed a successor. It simply means that appointing a successor is the single most important task for an imam, and hence he takes care of it as soon as feasible). In the absence of the imam, the same holds for a da'i al-mutlaq. (Again: Ahmed Ali Raj says that there is no need for this principle for da'i al-mutlaq. I strongly disagree. The position of the da'i al-mutlaq in the time of satr is on par with the imam, except in some theoretical ways. Hence, what applies to an imam, applies to a da'i al-mutlaq in satr).
The irony is that both the Imams as well as the Dais have failed to establish clear and indisputable nuss. This taken in conjunction with what walker has stated invalidates both the Imamat and the dawat!!!



SincereOfHeart
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2222

Unread post by SincereOfHeart » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:05 am

anajmi wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:12 pm
. Note that as Walker mentions, the very fact of performing nass is a validation of an Imam. Hence, an Imam can not pass away without designating a successor. (BTW: This does not mean, as Ahmed Ali Raj in a lecture implied, that an imam can't die if he has not appointed a successor. It simply means that appointing a successor is the single most important task for an imam, and hence he takes care of it as soon as feasible). In the absence of the imam, the same holds for a da'i al-mutlaq. (Again: Ahmed Ali Raj says that there is no need for this principle for da'i al-mutlaq. I strongly disagree. The position of the da'i al-mutlaq in the time of satr is on par with the imam, except in some theoretical ways. Hence, what applies to an imam, applies to a da'i al-mutlaq in satr).
The irony is that both the Imams as well as the Dais have failed to establish clear and indisputable nuss. This taken in conjunction with what walker has stated invalidates both the Imamat and the dawat!!!
The nass of both Imams and Dais is clear and indisputable, that is, if you go by Fatimid theology and principles. As for what Ahmed Ali Raj said; he was correct (again according to Fatimid theology and principle), an Imam cannot die without appointing his successor, as this would cause difference in the adl of Allah SWT, and cause the Earth to be void of his argument against the people; why does one age have an Imam and one not? It is fundamentally against justice (I won't go into too much detail here, though). The same applies for Dai al-Mutlaq; if the Imam has gone into satr then his representatives, the Dais (once again by Fatimid theology) must also carry on through nass until when the Imam returns from satr. If you are saying that the Imams and Dais have failed to establish a clear nass, then by logic the legacy and Dawat of the Prophet has failed (I reiterate, this is all by Fatemi theological principle). His heir has failed to keep his Dawah in front of the people by failing to do nass, and his heir's representatives the same. This makes no logical sense, whatsoever. I am assuming you believe in Fatimid theology, and therefore I have put forth this argument. The nass of the Imams and the Dais (whether it may seem confusing to you or not) must continue, by way of necessity and foundational Fatemid theological principle (which is based on logic). If you say this has stopped, then you have given those who don't believe an excuse to make to Allah SWT on the day of Judgement.

I'd like to end on the ayah
والله غالب على امره ولكن اكثر الناس لا يعلمون
May Allah guide us all to Haq.



yfm
Posts: 161
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2223

Unread post by yfm » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:38 am

To help us with knowledge and understanding what are others view on this i.e. not just fatimids, what about mainstream Sunnis and non fatimids shias?

I also learnt that muffadal went to alazhar university in Cairo where he was educated by mainstream Sunnis ulama. Does be acknowledge their views?



SincereOfHeart
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2224

Unread post by SincereOfHeart » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:58 am

yfm wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:38 am
To help us with knowledge and understanding what are others view on this i.e. not just fatimids, what about mainstream Sunnis and non fatimids shias?

I also learnt that muffadal went to alazhar university in Cairo where he was educated by mainstream Sunnis ulama. Does be acknowledge their views?
Regarding others' views specifically on the matter of nass, I cannot say for sure what a shia or sunni would say, but we can speculate.

Sunni's don't believe in a specific figure head/ Imam as such and so would probably blow all of this aside; they believe in a direct connection with Allah, not through a specific saahib of the age they are living in.
Shias - there are a ton of different schools of thoughts, the Isna'ashari, Nizaari, Aga khaani, Sulaimani etc etc, the list goes on and on.

There are refutations for all of these schools of thought present, but this is not the place to put them forth.

Mufaddal Saifuddin has had the best of opportunities in life; born in the house of the Dai, an eminent Fatemid scholar; resources to attain the best of educations; but still it seems he has turned out more of a puppet than a scholar.



SincereOfHeart
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2225

Unread post by SincereOfHeart » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:26 am

I Rizwan wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:37 am
Things to be done by fatemi dawat :

1) accept Burhanuddin was faulty person he let go many un islamic practices in his tenure. (including different coloured safai chitthi).

2) accept you guys have no contact with Imam uz zamaan and you have been fooling people in the name of Imam.

3) you are not dai mutlaq but you are dai nizaam.

4) do not claim to be jannat naa aapnar and masoom. (you seriously dont have any such power)

5) stop lying.

6) come down to normal level and talk every one with humility.

7) take back your shezada and shezadi titles ( you are not prince and princess of some gaga land)

8 ) STOP LYING (very important)
I can understand the frustration that many people have on this forum with Mainstream Dawoodi Bohrism, but there are several underlying key faults with your arguments. I shall respond to each of your points in brief here, and in more detail if you would like later.

1) What is to be understood here is that the Sons of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin had taken a lot of control in all kothars/jamaats and administrative institutions. In short, many things which can be seen as 'un-islamic' and wrong happened not to the knowledge of Syedna Burhanuddin, as his Sons on many occasions, aided by some of Syedna Taher Saifuddin's Sons conspired to give false reports and testimonies to him. They also strategically isolated Syedna especially towards the end of his reign, preventing true reports from every reaching him. They placed their own sycophants and 'yes-men' in high positions, falsely saying that they were pious and ideal for such positions. This is an extremely wide discussion point and I cannot go into a ton of detail at the moment, but I am open to any questions for further clarification.

2) This goes fundamentally against Fatimid ideology and logic. If the people are left without any contact with the Imam al-zamaan, the one who in each age explains the Shariah of the Prophet and shows the meanings hidden within the Qur'an, then the message/legacy of the Prophet has been lost. An Imam must be present, and in his seclusion his representative, a Dai who has roohani contact with the Imam, who gives people the barakat of the Imam in place; otherwise one can say to God on the day of judgment that he did not believe because God did not place any guide on the Earth. Again, I can give more detail if needed.

3 and 4) Again, fundamentally against logic and Fatimid ideology. If a Dai is naazim, that is to say Dai with limited authority, as opposed to Dai al-Mutlaq, Dai with full authority, why should anyone believe in him? Why should you believe in him? The very phrase naazim Dai means he does not have ismat, ie: he is not ma'soom. This means that the Dai can make a mistake in giving guidance to the people, and go against the Shariah prescribed by the Prophet - again, why therefore would you believe in him? The Dai has to be Dai al-mutlaq (with full authority) and has to be therefore ma'soom in the time of seclusion of the Imaam, as the Imaam has left him in front of the people as a representative and source of guidance, whilst he has gone into satr. If he is not ma'soom then what authority does he have to give any guidance to anyone?

5 and 8 ) These are comments which should both be directed at administration and kothar/jamaat.

6 and 7) Shezada/Shezadi are not titles, they are merely descriptions. 'Shezada' and 'Shezadi' is not a position/station/rutba in the Dawah, it is merely a description that they are the sons and daughters of Syedna. By Fatemi Dawat I assume you mean followers of Syedna Taher Fakhruddin, in which case, what have you found in their speech which is not full of humility?



yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2226

Unread post by yfm » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:58 pm

In India if you have money, it is paradise. If you don't have money you have muffadal.



dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 417
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2227

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:54 pm

kimanumanu wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:14 pm
IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUDICATURE AT BOMBAY
ORDINARY ORIGINAL CIVIL JURISDICTION
SUIT NO. 337 OF 2014
Khuzemabhai Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb alias
Khuzemabhai STS Qutbuddin alias Khuzaima
Qutbuddin
...Plaintiff
Versus
Mufaddal Burhanuddin Saifuddin
...Defendant
Mr Anand Desai
, a/w Mr Chirag Mody, Mr Naushri Kohli, i/b DSK
Legal, for the Plaintiff.
Mr Janak Dwarkadas, Senior Advocate
, with Mr Fredun DeVitre,
Senior Advocate, Mr Firdosh Pooniwalla, Mr Juzer Shakir, M s
Azmin Irani, Mr Abzeer Faizullabhoy, Mr Murtaza Kachwalla,
Mr Aashdin Chivalwala & Mr Shahen Pradhan, i/b J Sagar
Associates, for the Defendant.
CORAM:
G.S. PATEL, J
DATED:
24th July 2017
PC:-
1.
The plaintiff has filed his own affidavit in lieu of examination
in chief. He has also filed the affidavit of evidence of an expert, one
Wilferd Ferdinand Madelung, a German citizen and Laudian
Professor of Arabic at Oxford University from 1978 to 1998.
The
two evidence affidavits are taken on record.
2.
Mr Desai’s application immediately on behalf of the Plaintiff
is for leave to lead the evidence of the expert first under Order
XVIII Rule 3A of the Code of Civil Procedure 1908 on account of
his advanced years:
he is 86 years old.
3.
Mr Desai is also filed a Motion as yet in draft for this purpose
and Mr Dwarkadas seeks time to respond in writing. Affidavit in
reply to be filed and served on or before 28th August 2017. At this
stage, no affidavit in rejoinder.
4.
In addition to the documents previously marked, the Plaintiff
has filed a compilation of 33 additional documents that he seeks to
have marked in evidence. A copy of this compilation has been given
to the advocates for the Defendant. Statements of admission and
denial are being prepared. Inspection is complete.
5.
It is unlikely that the matter can be taken much before Diwali
vacation. I will list the matter for directions on 31st October 2017,
but with liberty to the parties to apply for an earlier date if possible.

(G. S. PATEL, J)
Any update on the court case?



yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2228

Unread post by yfm » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:29 am

What do you think is the purpose of having the bohra upliftment program by Muffadal with respect to the dawoody succession case?



yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2229

Unread post by yfm » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am

Who is the spiritual leader of PDB?



ajamali
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2230

Unread post by ajamali » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:34 pm

yfm wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:31 am
Who is the spiritual leader of PDB?
It must be MS because of his ummmm Superior Spiritual qualities :roll:



yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2231

Unread post by yfm » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:46 am

Hmmmm why does he than have to defend his superior spiritual position to high Hindu judge's?



yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2232

Unread post by yfm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:27 am

I think the dai can go to heaven and of course I will cheer Allah



Shams
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2233

Unread post by Shams » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:01 pm

Dawoodi Bohra Succession Case, story so far: Fakhruddin claims historic precedents of private conferment of succession rights exist
India Utkarsh Srivastava Dec, 08 2017 20:00:34 IST

The Bombay High Court heard the case relating to the succession dispute for the spiritual head of Dawoodi Bohra community on Friday.

While the matter has been in the courts since 2014, Friday's hearing was considered important as the high court heard the main petitioner Syedna Taher Fakhruddin, who has staked claims to be recognised as the spiritual head of the community.

Fakhruddin was questioned by his legal counsel Anand Desai with the court also frequently asking questions. The court session began at 12.00 pm and continued until 5 pm, with a break for lunch. The recording of evidence will continue on 11 and 12 December and cross-examination by the defendant’s counsel will commence once examination by Desai is complete.

Interestingly, the transcription of Fakhruddin's statements was visible in real time on screens in front of the judge, the lawyers, Fakhruddin and the people in the court.

The hearing began with the court examining various documents, including letters, which could prove who the real successor is. It accepted the letters and their translations in evidence, subject to them being proved correct in both content and translation.

After that Desai began Fakhruddin’s examination-in-chief (questioning of a witness by the party which has called that witness to give evidence, in support of the case being made). Fakhruddin first explained how the Dawoodi Bohra community was established and how they differ from other sects of Muslims.

The court then asked Fakhruddin about the functions of the other appointees in the community such as the Mazoon-ul-Matlaq and the Mukasir. The petitioner also explained certain rituals of the community.

It was after lunch that the questioning became more pointed as the petitioner explained the nuances of how Dais (religious head of the Dawoodi Bohras) are appointed. Questions were asked as to the defined methods in which a nass of succession to Dai is conferred and as to whether a nass conferred in private without the presence of witnesses could be held valid.

Fakhruddin asserted that the nass can be conferred privately and once conferred is irrevocable. He also gave examples of such cases in the past.

The petitioner also spoke about the sources of doctrinal knowledge in the Dawoodi Bohra faith. He was asked to differentiate between two religious texts and asked why one was more authoritative than the other. He explained that the authority comes from author of the text and their standing in the community.

A little confusion was caused during this comparison of texts as the page numbers on different volumes of the evidence were different causing the court to ask for better organisation from the petitioner’s side.

Fakhruddin was also asked if ever a sitting Dai had told his successor who to appoint as the next Dai. Fakhruddin answered in the affirmative and gave the example of the 8th Dai who was appointed by the 7th Dai in accordance with the wishes of the 6th Dai. The hearing ended at 5 pm and will again continue on Monday at 12 noon.

Background of the case

The dispute arose in January 2014 after the death of 52nd spiritual head of the community, Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin. His son Mufaddal Saiffudin succeeded him as the 53rd Dai al-Mutlaq, however, his claim was challenged by Burhanuddin's half brother Khuzaima Qutbuddin.

The matter reached the court in 2014 when Qutbuddin filed a declaratory suit in the court asking to be recognised as the 53rd Dai al-Mutlaq (the spiritual leader of the community). The community's spiritual head usually, but not always, rise up through a hereditary line of succession.

The Syednas call themselves the representatives of Imams (the line of successors to Islam’s prophet), according to Hindustan Times. Dawoodi Bohras are part of the Shia sect which broke away from the Sunnis after a dispute over the successor to Islam’s prophet.

The case saw another complication after Qutbuddin passed away in 2016. His claim was then pursued by his son Syedna Taher Fakhruddin (the current petitioner).

In March 2017, the Bombay High Court allowed Fakhruddin to be substituted in place of his father as petitioner in the case, The Economic Times reported. This was done to avoid multiple proceedings in the case.

The case has thrown up questions regarding the law as would apply to succession in such cases. The matter is being heard by Justice Gautam Patel who framed the following questions which the court must answer:

- What constitutes a valid nass (act of succession)?

- Was a valid nass conferred upon Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin by Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin?

- Can a nass once conferred be retracted, revoked, changed or superseded?

- If a nass can be retracted, revoked, changed or superseded, was a valid nass conferred upon Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin (defedant) by Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin?

The Bombay High Court had fixed the dates of 8, 11 and 12 December, 2017 for the cross examination of Fakhruddin.

Published Date: Dec 08, 2017 07:44 pm | Updated Date: Dec 08, 2017 08:00 pm




anajmi
Posts: 13399
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2235

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:50 am

They also strategically isolated Syedna especially towards the end of his reign, preventing true reports from every reaching him.
So the bohra claim that the Dai is ghaib na jaankar is a lie correct?
2) This goes fundamentally against Fatimid ideology and logic. If the people are left without any contact with the Imam al-zamaan, the one who in each age explains the Shariah of the Prophet and shows the meanings hidden within the Qur'an, then the message/legacy of the Prophet has been lost. An Imam must be present, and in his seclusion his representative, a Dai who has roohani contact with the Imam, who gives people the barakat of the Imam in place; otherwise one can say to God on the day of judgment that he did not believe because God did not place any guide on the Earth. Again, I can give more detail if needed.
What is the use of a guide who doesn't know what is going on in his own household? You said - In short, many things which can be seen as 'un-islamic' and wrong happened not to the knowledge of Syedna Burhanuddin, as his Sons on many occasions, aided by some of Syedna Taher Saifuddin's Sons conspired to give false reports and testimonies to him. They also strategically isolated Syedna especially towards the end of his reign, preventing true reports from every reaching him.

And also read the rest of your own post to validate the invalidity of this chosen guide. Bottom line is that even if there is supposed to be a guide, a Dai-ul-Mutlaq, we can say with utmost certainty, based upon your own posts, that Syedna Burhanuddin was not that!!!



dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2236

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:57 pm

Shams wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:01 pm
Dawoodi Bohra Succession Case, story so far: Fakhruddin claims historic precedents of private conferment of succession rights exist
India Utkarsh Srivastava Dec, 08 2017 20:00:34 IST

...

Interestingly, the transcription of Fakhruddin's statements was visible in real time on screens in front of the judge, the lawyers, Fakhruddin and the people in the court.


Published Date: Dec 08, 2017 07:44 pm | Updated Date: Dec 08, 2017 08:00 pm
Is the transcript available for the public records? Some of the court proceedings in other countries are available publicly.



yfm
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2237

Unread post by yfm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:28 pm

If these dais can be so worldly minded, where is the Imam zuhr who talks to them. It is like the king who has no clothes. Finally some thing reveals the truth. Do we still have to be so gullible? What other kid do we need to tell us that the Dias have no clothes. They are all impostors.



momeenbhai
Posts: 83
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2238

Unread post by momeenbhai » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:26 am

those who dont have ilm should avoid talking on Islam, first do your job of reading Quran and understand Islam, then get qualified to talk on Islam and Imam and Iman.




objectiveobserver53
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2240

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:15 am

The single mindedness and courage of the Qutbuddins in taking on this Goliath is commendable. From all reports, those from the media, and those that I received from the courtroom, STF was in command and very effective in achieving his purpose. It cannot be easy conveying doctrinal nuance through a system of justice consisting of non-Bohras. Slowly but surely, the judge will see the light. Justice will be done inshaAllah.



dal-chaval-palidu
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2241

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:53 pm

http://www.firstpost.com/india/dawoodi- ... 57759.html

Dawoodi Bohra succession case: Three-day examination of Syedna Taher Fakhruddin yields little new information



UnhappyBohra
Posts: 491
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2242

Unread post by UnhappyBohra » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:15 am

From the FD website:
Bombay High Court Declaratory Suit 8th, 11th & 12th December 2017
Posted on December 17, 2017
The recording of the evidence of His Holiness Syedna Taher Fakhruddin Saheb (TUS), the Plaintiff in Suit 337/2014, which had been originally filed by his predecessor His Holiness the Late Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin Saheb RA in the Hon’ble Bombay High Court, began on the 8th of December 2017 at 12:00pm in the historic Courtroom No. 46, presided over by the Hon’ble Justice Gautam Patel.
The Plaintiff first took the oath, and prayed Bismillah.
The Plaintiff was first examined by his Cousel Mr. Anand Desai of DSK Legal. The Hon’ble Justice Gautam Patel also asked the Plaintiff several questions.
Mr. Desai asked the Plaintiff to explain the origins of the Dawoodi Bohra community. The Plaintiff replied that Dawoodi Bohras are Shia Ismaili Muslims, followers of Imam Ismail AS.. Syedna Saheb explained that Ismaili Shia’s believe that nass of succession, once conferred, cannot be revoked, changed, superseded or replaced and that is a core Dawoodi Bohra theological doctrine. This was the basic difference in belief from the followers of Musa Kazim, who believed that the nass on Ismail was revoked, and nass was then conferred on Musa Kazim by Imam Jafer us-Sadiq.
(An issue is of central importance in this succession case is that the defendant, Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, is saying that nass can be revoked, superseded, replaced or changed.)
Mr. Desai asked the Plaintiff about the sources of doctrinal knowledge in the Dawoodi Bohra community. The Plaintiff answered that in the hierarchy of texts, the highest would be the Holy Qur’an, the hadith of Mohammed Rasulullah SA, and the sayings of the Imams. At the same level are books of the Dais. The Plaintiff explained that the books are like notes, and it is the oral interpretations provided by the Dais that are considered the highest level, as they are the authentic interpretations of the texts.
The Plaintiff said that he is also relying on oral interpretations given by the 51st Dai His Holiness the Late Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb RA and the 52nd Dai His Holiness the Late Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb RA to establish issues of belief and doctrine in this case.
The Hon’ble Justice Gautam Patel asked the Plaintiff whether it is important or necessary for others to know of the conferment of nass at or around the time when it is conferred. The Plaintiff replied that it is not compulsory or necessary, and that there are historical precedents of keeping such a conferment private, including to prevent opposing forces from attempting a disruption in the chosen order of Dais.
Mr. Desai asked the Plaintiff to provide an explanation for the case of private nass, where the nass is communicated only from the appointer to the appointed. The Plaintiff answered that not only is this possible, but gave several historical examples of when this has been previously done. The Plaintiff also stated that he has personally heard the 52nd Dai on multiple occasions say that private nass is valid and there are audio recordings of the 51st Dai saying this.
Mr. Desai asked the Plaintiff to explain the case where a mansoos (successor) dies before he assumes office as Dai. The Plaintiff explained that once nass is conferred, the mansoos has already reached the high station in this world and will attain the same high station in heaven. The Dai would anoint a new mansoos by conferring nass on him in case his mansoos passes away during the lifetime of the Dai. In support of this, among other examples, the Plaintiff quoted the Holy Quran (Ch. 19: Verse 53: 53rd verse of Surat Maryam) which states that Prophet Haroon (Aaron), the mansoos (appointed successor) of Prophet Musa (Moses), is referred to as having the same station as Musa himself, that of Nabi (Prophet). Another mansoos was appointed after Prophet Haroon passed away.
Mr. Desai asked the Plaintiff what is the difference between Sajda (prostration) of worship and Sajda to an Imam or his Dai. The Plaintiff replied that the Sajda for worship can be done only to Allah (God); Sajda to an Imam or his Dai is also denoted as ‘taqbeel al ard’ (meaning kissing of the ground) and is the highest form of respect.
(This point is important because the Plaintiff’s case is that sajda is only done to an Imam, Imam-to-be, his Dai or Dai-to-be. The Defendant and his brothers used to perform Sajda to the Original Plaintiff Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin Saheb.)
Mr. Desai also asked whether there are any expressions used to jointly refer to the Dai and the Mazoon. The Plaintiff, illustratively, named the following:
The Mazoon is the right hand of the Dai and jointly takes up the work of the Dawat
The Dai and the Mazoon are the spiritual parents of the people of Dawat
The Mazoon is the true friend of the Dai and witness upon the believers
The Plaintiff also offered testimony about the photos taken when Syedna Burhanuddin RA viewed the handwritten misaal (letter) written by the 51st Dai Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb RA to Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin Saheb RA. Syedna Burhanuddin and Syedna Qutbuddin are visible in the photographs and Syedna Fakhruddin took the photographs. The misaal has clear indications by the 51st Dai that the Original Plaintiff would be the 53rd Dai.
The Hon’ble Justice Gautam Patel asked the Plaintiff the reasons for wanting to rely on audio and video recordings of the 51st and 52nd Dais sermons. The Plaintiff replied that he is relying on these as they are the authoritative pronouncements by the 51st Dai and 52nd Dai on several key doctrinal beliefs, including:
There can be a private conferment of nass
That the mansoos can testify for himself and in favour of himself to show that the Dai conferred nass on him
That a nass can be conferred with an indication
That a nass once conferred cannot be changed, revoked or superseded
To show the high credibility and station of the rank of Mazoon
The examination in chief concluded and Senior Counsel Mr. Iqbal Chagla for the defendant Shehzada Mufaddal Saifuddin, began his cross-examination.
Mr. Chagla asked many questions about the Plaintiff’s personal background, inquiring in detail into his educational background, places of residence, business dealings, and also other family related matters.
Mr. Chagla asked the Plaintiff about the special knowledge and Dawat secrets bestowed upon him by the Original Plaintiff, inquiring into their purpose. He replied that the reason for bestowing such knowledge was so that he “could serve the Dawat and the Dai”. Mr. Chagla asked how the Original Plaintiff expected the Plaintiff to serve Dawat and the Dai. He replied: “In the way he had served them, with sincerity and devotion.”
Mr. Chagla questioned the Plaintiff about the role of the Mazoon in settling disputes relating to the identity of the true Dai, and Syedna Fakhruddin indicated that in previous disputes, the word of the Mazoon was taken as authoritative in determining the true Dai.
Syedna Fakhruddin was asked when he believed that his father, the 53rd Dai Syedna Khuzaima Qutbuddin Saheb was the successor to the 52nd Dai. He replied that it was a progression from childhood and the actions of the 52nd Dai’s children, including the defendant, all of whom offered Sajda to Syedna Qutbuddin, and jointly referred to the 52nd Dai and Syedna Qutbuddin Saheb as “Bewe Moula” (Both Moula), contributed to this belief.
Mr. Chagla also entered into evidence a newspaper article that the Plaintiff had brought in his Plaint, but which was not earlier admitted by the Defendant. This newspaper article quoted the former Chief Justice of India, the Hon’ble Justice Aziz M. Ahmadi saying that “I examined the documents and believe that Syedna Qutbuddin’s stand of the 53rd Dai is principled”. The Hon’ble Justice Patel took this document on record as the Defendant’s exhibit.
The Hon’ble Justice Patel has scheduled the further cross-examination of the Plaintiff on 8th, 9th, and 12th of January 2018.
Posted in All, Bombay High Court Declaratory Suit




objectiveobserver53
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2244

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:34 am

There is a lot of nuance and new detail in the above two posts. Looks like things are going well for STF TUS.



anajmi
Posts: 13399
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2245

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:27 pm

The same applies for Dai al-Mutlaq; if the Imam has gone into satr then his representatives, the Dais (once again by Fatimid theology) must also carry on through nass until when the Imam returns from satr. If you are saying that the Imams and Dais have failed to establish a clear nass, then by logic the legacy and Dawat of the Prophet has failed (I reiterate, this is all by Fatemi theological principle).
That is an idiotic argument. It is like saying that since Abu Jahal remained a kafir then by logic (more specifically, YOUR logic) the prophet (saw) has failed to deliver the message of Islam!!!



objectiveobserver53
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2246

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:09 pm

anajmi wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:27 pm
The same applies for Dai al-Mutlaq; if the Imam has gone into satr then his representatives, the Dais (once again by Fatimid theology) must also carry on through nass until when the Imam returns from satr. If you are saying that the Imams and Dais have failed to establish a clear nass, then by logic the legacy and Dawat of the Prophet has failed (I reiterate, this is all by Fatemi theological principle).
That is an idiotic argument. It is like saying that since Abu Jahal remained a kafir then by logic (more specifically, YOUR logic) the prophet (saw) has failed to deliver the message of Islam!!!
Your analogy does not apply at all. Think about it. The argument made is court is about the survival of the message and the messenger whereas your example is about the acceptance of the message.



yfm
Posts: 161
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2247

Unread post by yfm » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:14 am

When I see Men afraid of showing their identity then I know that Muffadal has a hold on you and them and I despair.



Shams
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2248

Unread post by Shams » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:22 pm

The most hilarious thought crossed my mind yesterday. Kattar reformists have been, some might say foolishly, clamoring for a democratically elected Dai, instead of nepotism and heredity. And now they have one!!! SMS claim is only bolstered by the peoples support of it! Even if 2-5-20 years down the line, the court were to pronounce STS as rightful Dai, would the majority of bohra swing their allegiance over to Qutbi clan? Nuff said and now to quote Winston Churchill:
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"



Humsafar
Posts: 2484
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2249

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:57 pm

Shams wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:22 pm
The most hilarious thought crossed my mind yesterday. Kattar reformists have been, some might say foolishly, clamoring for a democratically elected Dai, instead of nepotism and heredity. And now they have one!!! SMS claim is only bolstered by the peoples support of it! Even if 2-5-20 years down the line, the court were to pronounce STS as rightful Dai, would the majority of bohra swing their allegiance over to Qutbi clan? Nuff said and now to quote Winston Churchill:
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
Shows how little you know about reformists, kattar or otherwise. No sir, we don't care how the Dai is nassed, but we do care about how the Dai and his parasitic family is milking the community. To be precise, we are clamouring for autonomous jamats where the management is democratically elected. Please read up on reform movement and their agenda before shooting off your mouth. There is enough material here on this forum to inform a generation. You have no excuse not to know.
As for Winston Churchill, I would not take lessons in democracy from that racist war criminal.



Shams
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#2250

Unread post by Shams » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:24 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:57 pm
Shams wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:22 pm
The most hilarious thought crossed my mind yesterday. Kattar reformists have been, some might say foolishly, clamoring for a democratically elected Dai, instead of nepotism and heredity. And now they have one!!! SMS claim is only bolstered by the peoples support of it! Even if 2-5-20 years down the line, the court were to pronounce STS as rightful Dai, would the majority of bohra swing their allegiance over to Qutbi clan? Nuff said and now to quote Winston Churchill:
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
Shows how little you know about reformists, kattar or otherwise. No sir, we don't care how the Dai is nassed, but we do care about how the Dai and his parasitic family is milking the community. To be precise, we are clamouring for autonomous jamats where the management is democratically elected. Please read up on reform movement and their agenda before shooting off your mouth. There is enough material here on this forum to inform a generation. You have no excuse not to know.
As for Winston Churchill, I would not take lessons in democracy from that racist war criminal.
I knew this was coming as soon as I posted. I am well aware of the reform movement agenda and have been quite diligent in my research on it, here or otherwise. In retrospect, I do apologize for naming reformists, my reference was to some people who on this very forum said Dai should be democratically elected. If I had enough free time, I'd pull up the references to those posts. I think I know enough to do something about the current state in my circle of friends and family, each individual seed of thought of matters, but not enough to realize the futility of all and resign to calling people names. As an Indian, our hatred for Winston Churchill is mutual.