Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[ajamali]

After 1503 questions , cross examination of STF by lawyers of MS is finally over.

[momeenbhai]

why all questions only from claimant?

when will muffu appear?

[objectiveobserver53]

why all questions only from claimant?

when will muffu appear?

You assume Muffu has the B@11$ to appear. If he had any courage/knowledge he would have accepted the twice issued challenge by haq na duat to public debate!

[momeenbhai]

court calls every one. balls or no balls.

amazed why he is not been called yet.

[objectiveobserver53]

court calls every one. balls or no balls.

amazed why he is not been called yet.

It’s a civil law-suit. He cannot be forced (subpoenaed) to testify. He actually does need said balls in order to appear in court. So unless he grows a pair, he ain’t coming. He may designate someone. Having said that, it would be a lot of fun to see him in court. His keen intellect would really shine through!! Also, his “truthfulness” would mesmerize!!

[momeenbhai]

so hows the josh? high or low?

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Starting March 11th is the testimony of the Professor of Ismailli history. I would be curious to hear what the arguments in court are. I hope that the newspapers summarize them. It would also be good if they are posted here too, for those who are interested.

[juzer esmail]

Who's the professor?

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Who's the professor?

Legal Update January 2019
[From FD website]

The cross-examination of Syedna Fakhruddin concluded on 29th January 2019, after hearings on 27 days at the Hon’ble Bombay High Court. Over 2,000 questions in aggregate were asked. The next witness, Prof Wilferd Madelung, from the University of Oxford, and an expert on the history of Islam will be cross examined from 11th March 2019.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilferd_Madelung

https://iis.ac.uk/people/prof-wilferd-madelung

[Qadir]

TF's side witness, right? A claimant for dai and can't prove him being one with all the texts from dawat and wants to call a professor. I am not opposed to it but it would be great to see TF proven wrong by this professor. I read some of his papers and the professor is quite impartial to different schools of thought of islam, at least in his paper. Don't know what he is gonna say in court under oath. How funny it would be if he says something in favor of TF and the lawyers find him contradicting his own papers?

I believe that SMS will visit the court if he needs to. The judge can ask him to appear but can't force him. STS went to fight for dawat and his equally fearless successor will too if the need arises.

[Qadir]

Whoever wins its hardly gonna change the fact that SMS is the true dai and his people will never leave his side.

[SBM]

Whoever wins its hardly gonna change the fact that SMS is the true dai and his people will never leave his side.

So you already decided---A true sign of Blind Abde

[Qadir]

Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.

[zinger]

Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.

From what you have written, it is evident that you are speaking from your heart and not grand-standing.
While i cannot speak for the others, i for one certainly respect that. i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

What i appreciated about your post was not just the honesty-from-the-heart but that you did not resort to name calling and mocking and abusing, something which is so rare on this site these days

[Biradar]

... i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

Can you enlighten us what what was the "truth" in your statement "the truth dawned on me finally"? What made this "truth" dawn on you?

Also, in general, I agree with Qadir. This case is not really about determining who is the da'i. People have picked sides and nothing will change at this point. A judge can't determine matters of personal faith. In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.

[zinger]

... i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

Can you enlighten us what what was the "truth" in your statement "the truth dawned on me finally"? What made this "truth" dawn on you?

Also, in general, I agree with Qadir. This case is not really about determining who is the da'i. People have picked sides and nothing will change at this point. A judge can't determine matters of personal faith. In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.

The truth that perhaps Muffadal Maula, even though he may have been "chosen" as the Dai, is perhaps:
1. Either not good enough at it, or
2. Perhaps not the legitimate Dai at all

[objectiveobserver53]

In fact, the judge will essentially ask the two sides to share various properties and resources, but will not make a definitive statement on who the da'i is. He can't as he has no authority to do so.

The judge is indeed not going to pick the dai - you are right, he has no authority. He is going to rule, based on evidence presented, whom Burhanuddin Moula picked as Dai.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Appreciate the civil nature of the discussions here. Hope that it continues.

At its best, I believe that the judge will decide who in the opinion of the court is the correct dai, and hence who should be the administrator (in effect, controlling ?) of Dawat-e-hadiyah (all the bohra properties).

As far as what are an individual's belief and in the matter of his/her faith, that is for that individual to follow - the constitution guarantees it and the court is not going to say anything about an individual's faith. That is my thinking.

However, I believe the court case is important for at least 2 reason, probably more:

• There may be proofs presented which FD is restricted from being shared with the public as the case is on-going. I would hope that they can be shared afterwards. That can help the general public decide one way or the other.
  * A relatively neutral party's opinion (the Indian courts) may count for something for some people who are open to listening to it and on the fence.

[kseeker]

Correct me if I am wrong, many progressives believe that Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin was not a rightfully selected dai, right?

Now when the judge overseeing the Chandabhoy Galla Case, upheld the right of Syedna Taher Saifuddin as the rightful Dai al Mutlaq, and hence legally accepting Syedna AbdulQadir Najmuddin as rightful Successor to Syedna Mohammed Badruddin, why didn't you accept the verdict.

Now I don't exactly know the beliefs of progressive and maybe the above statements might not be true for them, but I am confident that Syedna Aaliqadr is the rightful successor to Syedna Burhanuddin not because a judge thought it was correct but because my soul thought it was correct. Our beliefs are what makes us who we are, what are we if our beliefs can be changed so easily. I wouldn't place my bets that if SMS finally wins the case, TF's followers will leave his side. Nor would I assume that when Imam-uz-Zaman does zuhur progressives will accept him because the dai said he his Imam uz Zaman and not the court.

It is literally pointless to wait for the verdict if you consider spirituality to be in question. The question is about billions of dollars worth of properties and waqf spaces. Also, I wouldn't think that TF would get right to masjids inaugurated by SMS due to waqf board rules. Once again, I will stand by SMS just like lakhs of other mumineen not just because he won the case or not but because we believe he is our dai.

From what you have written, it is evident that you are speaking from your heart and not grand-standing.
While i cannot speak for the others, i for one certainly respect that. i was once just as confident about Mufaddal Maula being the Dai, as much as you are, but i guess the truth dawned on me finally.

What i appreciated about your post was not just the honesty-from-the-heart but that you did not resort to name calling and mocking and abusing, something which is so rare on this site these days

I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS

Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again.... Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...

What I fear in this whole ordeal is that if TF wins and uprisings start, people might start to mistake the greed of men for defects in our sect. The very reason why Ali (AS) did not fight for his right - to protect the ummah and not let people think all the preaching was just a new way to control the masses.

Your first two points.

1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case
2. You question if the progressives will accept the Imaam when he does zuhoor, my question is will the MS followers accept the Imaam when he does Zuhoor?..because just like you assume progressives would not accept an Imam pointed out by the current DB clergy, the progressives assume you would not accept an Imam unless validated by the DB clergy....

I have heard that the plans to position Jaafar Us Saadiq BS as the hidden Imaam have ramped up in speed.. a lot of the very close and very influential bohras have now gained 'Maarifat' of his 'exalted' position.

[zinger]

I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS

I think i will tend to agree with Qadir on this one. It seems very unlikely, that whatever the outcome of the case will be, majority will change side. yes, a few definitely might, but i think most will prefer to stay put where they are. the reason could either be brainwashing, or it could be that they genuinely believe that Burhanuddin Maula has done nass on him

Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again....

You must be right on the points above but my question to you is brainwashed again by whom? By Mufaddal Maula and his camp into making masses believe that the court case is all wrong or by Fakhruddin Maula and his camp that he has been victorious and is the righteous Dai?

Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...

Again, i will probably tend to disagree. While the kothar is definitely a nuisance, it is seen as a minor nuisance by most people, as long as they are in the daaman of Mufaddal Maula. most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him

1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case

I dont think that that is the official stand of reformists. I would suggest that you couch it as a personal opinion

2. You question if the progressives will accept the Imaam when he does zuhoor, my question is will the MS followers accept the Imaam when he does Zuhoor?..because just like you assume progressives would not accept an Imam pointed out by the current DB clergy, the progressives assume you would not accept an Imam unless validated by the DB clergy....

Ofcourse, this goes without saying. even if the true Imam came and stood in front of the Bohra crowd today, i personally feel most people would be sceptical, unless authenticated by Muffadal Maula.

I have heard that the plans to position Jaafar Us Saadiq BS as the hidden Imaam have ramped up in speed.. a lot of the very close and very influential bohras have now gained 'Maarifat' of his 'exalted' position.

[kseeker]

I believe there will be a change in the followers dynamics if the ruling goes in TF's favour. Dawoodi bohras are not just a sect of islam but a full fledged socialist organization. Without 90% of the halls, jamaats and other structures, controlling the mass will not be easy. I understand that the judgement will only be applicable in India and to gain control over the rest of the world's structures, he will have to fight cases in all of them but if his support in India grows, that feeling will surely trickle to bohras in other countries.. As far as Waqf board rules go, hardly any significant landmarks have been made waqf by MS

I think i will tend to agree with Qadir on this one. It seems very unlikely, that whatever the outcome of the case will be, majority will change side. yes, a few definitely might, but i think most will prefer to stay put where they are. the reason could either be brainwashing, or it could be that they genuinely believe that Burhanuddin Maula has done nass on him

Qadir - Your statements are based on the thought that every follower of MS is a loyal one who will follow him no matter where but the truth is the majority of our community did not even know his name until he was selected to be the mansoos... the population has been brainwashed ever since with stories of his great contributions to the jamea studies and Hakimi masjid in Misr.. did you ever hear about those before he became the mansoos? I have been to Misr twice before he became mansoos and stayed in the DB facilities, on both occasions we were given history lessons but never was MS mentioned... anyways, my point is that if people can be brainwashed once, they can be brainwashed again....

You must be right on the points above but my question to you is brainwashed again by whom? By Mufaddal Maula and his camp into making masses believe that the court case is all wrong or by Fakhruddin Maula and his camp that he has been victorious and is the righteous Dai?

Moreover, there are many people who are not die-hard followers and just going with the flow, if the case goes against MS, they will get a bit more courage and freedom to explore the TF arena...most of our brethren put up with the kothar crap because sadly, we are more worried about how and where we are going to be buried when we die than what deeds we do while we are alive. If TF gets majority of those spots, the masjids, he will surely get a larger following...

Again, i will probably tend to disagree. While the kothar is definitely a nuisance, it is seen as a minor nuisance by most people, as long as they are in the daaman of Mufaddal Maula. most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him

1. Like you said yourself, a judge or a case cannot decide who the Dai is.. just like you would not leave MS if he lost the case, progressives won't believe STS was rightful just because he won a case

I dont think that that is the official stand of reformists. I would suggest that you couch it as a personal opinion


Ofcourse, this goes without saying. even if the true Imam came and stood in front of the Bohra crowd today, i personally feel most people would be sceptical, unless authenticated by Muffadal Maula.

1. they genuinely 'believe' he is the rightful leader even though there is no proof of nass - the only way for any sane person to get there is brainwashing.
2. brainwashed by the kothar to believe that MS is the rightful Dai.
3. "most people in my jamat are of that opinion, that kothar ka kaam hain lootna, but Mufaddal Maula is there, he will give back much more to us and he is giving much more to us, by allowing us to be with him"

That because most people in the jamaats don't know that it was MS who was the ringleader of all the kothar extortions back in the day. any one who would go to pay wajebaat to MB would first have to go through MS and he would double or triple the number without any thought or justification.

4. A reformist is a person who holds thoughts different from the ones of the clergy. there are different scales at which a person demands reform.. so there is no set reformist view.. however, a reformist does not base a view on what the court dictates.. he/she goes to the court to stop something they believe needs to be stopped.. and not for the court to help them make their opinion.. so my point stands, a reformist does not care what a court says.

[Qadir]

The idea of Bohras following Mufaddal Maula are brainwashed or as you call braindead abdes is quite wrong. See to it this way, Mufaddal Maula was publicly announced as successor (please don't say it was all a staged show, KQ did not claim his place then so we can forgive people for believing even if it was, but I believe it wasn't fake and hopefully the court will too.)

Even if we consider Burhanuddin Moula to not know anything going on around him, he was given mic when he clearly read the shahadat of Imam Hussain at least thrice (on Ashura, not to forget him doing the first bayaan in 1433). He could have just said Khuzaima Qutbuddin in public various times and maybe people would have known something is fishy. He did not so we can assume that he was ok with events folding around him.

Mufaddal Maula has produced a letter written by SMB, now you might say it could be forged but let court decide that. I hope they have good detectives looking into the letter's legitimacy.

Now being brainwashed would be when someone is forced to believe in radical ideologies by psychologically manipulative techniques. Just like I said KQ never came forward when he could have in front of SMB to demand his right, he just says that he was chosen SMB's successor in private. (No letter, no witness, no public announcement)

KQ said he was the beloved son and what not but we must not forget that STS gave the title Aaliqadr to SMS. Now, I don't see a lot of Aaliqadrs roaming in Bohra circles, do you?

If anyone could have been brainwashed, its followers of KQ and not SMS because even if staged, we are believing in visual proof not some secret nass ceremony 50 years ago.

Yes, we might be blind followers of SMS and whatever he says we do it but it would be so easy for him to just say that he is everything, but no he does not. He still leads us on the true paths of Daim al Islam and reminds us over and again that it is Imam who is the real deal and he is just his servant.

[objectiveobserver53]

The idea of Bohras following Mufaddal Maula are brainwashed or as you call braindead abdes is quite wrong. See to it this way, Mufaddal Maula was publicly announced as successor (please don't say it was all a staged show, KQ did not claim his place then so we can forgive people for believing even if it was, but I believe it wasn't fake and hopefully the court will too.)

Even if we consider Burhanuddin Moula to not know anything going on around him, he was given mic when he clearly read the shahadat of Imam Hussain at least thrice (on Ashura, not to forget him doing the first bayaan in 1433). He could have just said Khuzaima Qutbuddin in public various times and maybe people would have known something is fishy. He did not so we can assume that he was ok with events folding around him.

Mufaddal Maula has produced a letter written by SMB, now you might say it could be forged but let court decide that. I hope they have good detectives looking into the letter's legitimacy.

Now being brainwashed would be when someone is forced to believe in radical ideologies by psychologically manipulative techniques. Just like I said KQ never came forward when he could have in front of SMB to demand his right, he just says that he was chosen SMB's successor in private. (No letter, no witness, no public announcement)

KQ said he was the beloved son and what not but we must not forget that STS gave the title Aaliqadr to SMS. Now, I don't see a lot of Aaliqadrs roaming in Bohra circles, do you?

If anyone could have been brainwashed, its followers of KQ and not SMS because even if staged, we are believing in visual proof not some secret nass ceremony 50 years ago.

Yes, we might be blind followers of SMS and whatever he says we do it but it would be so easy for him to just say that he is everything, but no he does not. He still leads us on the true paths of Daim al Islam and reminds us over and again that it is Imam who is the real deal and he is just his servant.

This is a most amusing bunch of lies. Firstly Burhanuddin Moula never once did a public nass on MS. He never did finish the sentence he was given to read about “nass nu taj.” He stopped midway. When Moula RA was asking people to recite Syedas Shohadai, Moiz announced to the people that Moula nass farmave che. One wonders what was the need for him to lie like that.
Secondly, after the stroke, Burhanuddin Moula never once did a clear shahadat. I was there. In fact it was so incomprehensible that in a mark of great disrespect, the quack Moiz had to remove the microphone away from him even as he was “speaking.”
As for the letter.... Where can I begin?! The signature of Miyasaab Yamani that is supposedly on the letter is clearly faked. He never signed his name with an Alif. Miyasaab yamani never did sajda to MS, but he always did sajda to SKQ, now would he do that if he had signed a letter that conferred nass on MS? There is other evidence that will come out in court inshaallah that will prove many times over that the letter is a fake. Also, this letter was never mentioned in the 40 page document about the “nass” that was produced after Raudat Tahera drama. You’d think that it would have found a small mention given that it was supposedly the first time nass was conferred on MS. All this is enough to conclude that the letter is a fake. People will ask themselves WHY the MS toli needed to fabricate lies to prove his nass and if he fabricated this letter what else did he fabricate?

As for Aliqadar...he was given the name because he was born on 23rd of Shere Ramadan. And he has renounced that very milad and has adopted Burhanuddin Moula’s! I have not seen more numbskull confused behavior.

Now let’s talk about his supposed adherence to Daim. I imagine this is a reference to MS’s back and forth confusing lack of guidance on khafz - since this has been their misleading talking point. They always falsely cloak their bumbling on this subject as an adherence to Daim First the jamaat issued letters (presumably with his permission) that khafz was not to be done as it is a mark of one’s love for one’s country to follow it’s laws. Then he got on the takhat and denounced those very laws and declared that it MUST be done and screw the laws!! What did STF do? He issued one clear statement COMPLETELY compliant with Daim AND the law. Khafz will be done, if the woman chooses, in her adulthood. STF’s declaration is consistent with SKQ’s declaration of nass conferred on him in private. One clear statement. No wavering, no fabrication of letters. It was just not SKQ’s style to interrupt a drama and create a scene in front of Burhanuddin Moula. He remained till the end, respectful of his Moula and his Aqa. This is the exemplary behavior of a haq na dai. Strong, clear, consistent.

[objectiveobserver53]

I don’t believe that MS followers are all brain dead. I believe that due to the threat of social boycott, a campaign of fear, hate and misinformation (fateh mubeen!) the motivation has been low for them to seek the truth. Some guess at the truth but still choose to believe the lies and ignore inconsistent behavior because it is too inconvenient to face the truth. I’d say they are more cowardly than brain dead. Most see the truth but choose to ignore it.

[ajamali]

I don’t believe that MS followers are all brain dead.

Hmmmm but brain washed surely....Have you heard the Lanat recitations at the slightest provocation? Like trained monkies they spew out their laanats and chant moula moula. Perhaps you can ascribe it to crowd behavior. Perhaps in the sanity of their homes they question his legitimacy. Certainly many voice their doubts to us in person. I am hoping that the critical thinking is more widespread than masjid behavior would lead us to believe.

[ajamali]

As for Aliqadar...he was given the name because he was born on 23rd of Shere Ramadan. And he has renounced that very milad and has adopted Burhanuddin Moula’s! I have not seen more numbskull confused behavior.

The very concept of pretending someone else’s milad is one’s own is so disingenuous. As though one can change the day one was born. So in keeping with the man’s character....

I wonder if it was done to preserve celebrations of the day and hence an opportunity to extract more money. Combining milad with Lailatul qadar was just not optimal for maximum income generation.

[allbird]

Well this way Head you LOSE, Tail he Wins. Along with religion if you use some politics then you can rule for generations. But if you don't mix politics with religion then you become 4th like Moula ALI AS.

Who is better MS type's or Moula ALI AS your guess !

[Qadir]

Well this way Head you LOSE, Tail he Wins. Along with religion if you use some politics then you can rule for generations. But if you don't mix politics with religion then you become 4th like Moula ALI AS.

Who is better MS type's or Moula ALI AS your guess !

There are many examples of Imam who were heavily political.
Imam Hassan gave khilafat to Muawiya by signing a treaty, that's politics.
Imam Moiz established a whole dynasty and then ruled the Fatimid empire, any sane person would agree that involves politics.

There has been politics in dawat for a long time and just because the word politics in recent decades acquired a negative connotation due to corrupt world leaders, it doesn't mean that politics is necessarily bad. When you are in position when lakhs of people will do as you command, you need to be politically active while maintaining your spiritual position. Easier said than done, TF has completely destroyed his spiritual image in being politically right.

[ajamali]

Well this way Head you LOSE, Tail he Wins. Along with religion if you use some politics then you can rule for generations. But if you don't mix politics with religion then you become 4th like Moula ALI AS.

Who is better MS type's or Moula ALI AS your guess !

There are many examples of Imam who were heavily political.
Imam Hassan gave khilafat to Muawiya by signing a treaty, that's politics.
Imam Moiz established a whole dynasty and then ruled the Fatimid empire, any sane person would agree that involves politics.

There has been politics in dawat for a long time and just because the word politics in recent decades acquired a negative connotation due to corrupt world leaders, it doesn't mean that politics is necessarily bad. When you are in position when lakhs of people will do as you command, you need to be politically active while maintaining your spiritual position. Easier said than done, TF has completely destroyed his spiritual image in being politically right.

It must be so since you say so
Following that argument....
Mufaddal Saifuddin’s spiritual image must be greatly enhanced by the cutting up of the genitalia of little girls, by denouncing the laws of UK, USA and Australia like a raving lunatic, by the breaking up of Western Toilets, by the licking of spoons by young boys of his following, by the discouragement of higher education of girls in favor of “home science.” Greatly enhanced indeed.