Literal Intepretation of the quran

[Thai]

This topic touched on hijab and rape and I would like to take the opportunity discuss some of the common misconceptions of rape/sexual assault.

copied from "the office of voilence against women" from the medline website.

as is shown here, when it comes to rape it matters little if a woman wears "hijab" or is kept indoors etc. rape is a crime of "power"

Myths and Facts about Sexual Violence

Myth #1: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or act in a promiscuous manner.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that stem from a person's determination to exercise power over another. Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for unwanted sexual activity. Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person dresses or acts.


Myth #2: If a person goes to someone's room or house or goes to a bar, she assumes the risk of sexual assault. If something happens later, she can't claim that she was raped or sexually assaulted because she should have known not to go to those places.

Fact: This "assumption of risk" wrongfully places the responsibility of the offender's actions with the victim. Even if a person went voluntarily to someone's residence or room and consented to engage in some sexual activity, it does not serve as a blanket consent for all sexual activity. If a person is unsure about whether the other person is comfortable with an elevated level of sexual activity, the person should stop and ask. When someone says "No" or "Stop", that means STOP. Sexual activity forced upon another without consent is sexual assault.

Myth #4: Most sexual assaults are committed by strangers. It's not rape if the people involved knew each other.

Fact: Most sexual assaults and rapes are committed by someone the victim knows. Among victims aged 18 to 29, two-thirds had a prior relationship with the offender(1). During 2000, about six in ten rape or sexual assault victims stated the offender was an intimate, other relative, a friend or an acquaintance(2). A study of sexual victimization of college women showed that most victims knew the person who sexually victimized them. For both completed and attempted rapes, about 9 in 10 offenders were known to the victim(3). Most often, a boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, classmate, friend, acquaintance, or co-worker sexually victimized the women(4). Sexual assault can be committed within any type of relationship, including in marriage, in dating relationships, or by friends, acquaintances or co-workers. Sexual assault can occur in heterosexual or same-gender relationships. It does not matter whether there is a current or past relationship between the victim and offender; unwanted sexual activity is still sexual assault and is a serious crime.


Myth #5: Rape can be avoided if women avoid dark alleys or other "dangerous" places where strangers might be hiding or lurking.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault can occur at any time, in many places, to anyone. According to a report based on FBI data, almost 70% of sexual assault reported to law enforcement occurred in the residence of the victim, the offender, or another individual(5). As pointed out above in Fact #4, many rapes are committed by people known to the victim. While prudent, avoiding dark alleys or "dangerous" places will not necessarily protect someone from being sexually assaulted.

Myth #8: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.

Fact: The belief that only young, pretty women are sexually assaulted stems from the myth that sexual assault is based on sex and physical attraction. Sexual assault is a crime of power and control and offenders often choose people whom they perceive as most vulnerable to attack or over whom they believe they can assert power. Sexual assault victims come from all walks of life. They can range in age from the very old to the very young. Many victims of sexual violence are under 12. Sixty-seven percent of all victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were juveniles (under the age of 18); 34% of all victims were under age 12. One of every seven victims of sexual assault reported to law enforcement agencies were under age 6.(7) Men and boys are sexually assaulted. Persons with disabilities are also sexually assaulted. Assumptions about the "typical" sexual assault victim may further isolate those victimized because they may feel they will not be believed if they do not share the characteristics of the stereotypical sexual assault victim.



Myth #10: Someone can only be sexually assaulted if a weapon was involved.

Fact: In many cases of sexual assault, a weapon is not involved. The offender often uses physical strength, physical violence, intimidation, threats, or a combination of these tactics to overpower the victim. As pointed out in Fact #4, most sexual assaults are perpetrated by someone known to the victim. An offender often uses the victim's trust developed through their relationship to create an opportunity to commit the sexual assault. In addition, the offender may have intimate knowledge about the victim's life, such as where she lives, where she works, where she goes to school, or information about her family and friends. This enhances the credibility of any threats made by the offender since he has the knowledge about her life to carry them out. Although the presence of a weapon while committing the assault may result in a higher penalty or criminal charge, the absence of a weapon does not mean that the offender cannot be held criminally responsible for a sexual assault.

[anajmi]

I guess so what we should do is not worry about preventing rape cause it's bound to happen in any case according to you.

Nice mythical analysis.

[Thai]

Your point is interesting. In order to prevent a crime from occurring, one must know "Intent". Therefore, if we want to prevent a burglary from happening, we first have to know if a thief/criminal has the intent to steal. Since we cannot read minds (yet) the only way we know about " criminal intent" is if a crime is in progress. That is, if a burglar has broken your lock and is about to enter... etc.
We all have a CHOICE as to how to safeguard ourselves. Some may choose to lock their house, some may install a high tech system or some may choose to sit tight and hope nothing will happen. What we choose will be influenced by our background, education, finances, and such. Our choices depend on the information available to us.
I think this is also an important point when it comes to our approach to religion. life is all about making choices. Even the fellow (above messages) who did what his mother told him to do and compared himself to a wahabi, made a choice.
He chose to listen to his mother blindly.
We can read all the literal, non-literal, mystical translations of the Quran we want, but in the end, it is our choice how we, as an individual, approach the Quran.

[anajmi]

Thai,

Sure you have a choice my friend, you can approach the quran however you want. Hey, you even have the choice to not approach it at all. You have the choice to completely ignore it. I choose to approach it the way the prophet taught me how to approach, cause if I as an individual decide to choose my own way, it will be just as screwed up as everybody else's who have decided to approach it in their own way.

Your rape analysis is a case in point!!

[anajmi]

The beauty of the quran is that it actually gives you a hint about how to approach it. It tells you to approach it via the messenger.

[humble_servant_us]

I choose to approach it the way the prophet (pbuh) and after him his ahlul bait(as) taught me how to approach, cause if I as an individual decide to choose my own way, it will be just as screwed up as everybody else's who have decided to approach it in their own way.

[khan19922001]

Dear Humble Servant

And how did you learn from the Ahle Bait. ???? Did you get some divine inspiration or was it through mortals, and therefore prone to errors and bias.

How do you know what you have been taught is not as "screwed" up as others.

Regards

[JC]

Dear Humble

Where are the Ahle-Bait today?? How many are they? and what are they doing to teach us?

And WHO are Ahle-Bait?? Ali's decesandants..??!! if yes, they are many, WHOM to believe .... Iranians, Ithan Ashrees, Khojas, Ismailis, Bohras .... WHO is the TRUE REPRESENTATIVE.

My friend you are looking here and there.... The Prophet you believe in has said
"Islam is complete and I am leaving behind Quran and my Sunnah to guide you"
He has NEVER mentioned he is leaving Ahle-Bait for our guidance. WHY..?? Because logically there is no need. Islam is complete per Prphet so why would he leave some one else?

[humble_servant_us]

peace be upon u..

The Prophet you believe in has said "Islam is complete and I am leaving behind Quran and my Sunnah to guide you" He has NEVER mentioned he is leaving Ahle-Bait for our guidance. WHY..?? Because logically there is no need. Islam is complete per Prphet so why would he leave some one else?

Well if we go with the hadis mentioned above the first question arises is that how is the true sunnah of prophet(pbuh) protected becoz today we find a number of false hadis in the name of prophet(pbuh).

There is a need of protection of Quran and the sunnah of prophet(pbuh). History tells us that false hadith were fabricated in the name of prophet(pbuh). To preserve and protect the traditions (sunnah) of prophet(pbuh), some one of a character , morals and life as the prophet(pbuh) was required and this task was carried forward by ahlul bait (as)/Imams. For this the prophet(pbuh) has said: "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al­Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al­Kawthar on the Judgement's Day)." For authenticity and chain of narrators of the hadis please refer the following. It includes shia and sunni narrators.
http://al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/index.htm

Logically a protected and unaltered quran and sunnah makes more sense.

hs

[khan19922001]

Dear Humble Servent

You have not answered JC's question as how to find the true followers of the Ahle Bait in this age. Are they the Bohri's, who claim that their Dai is in touch with the Imam or the Ithna shri who believe that their Imam is in seclusion or the Agha Khani who have a present and living Imam. For the Bohri's and Agha Khani's there is a huma manifestation of the Imam. I don't know who is the current Imam of the 12ers is.

So where do we stand??? I personally think if God wanted a succession to continue, he would not have ended the Prophetood. The current practice would have and has created confusion.

Regards

Regards

[anajmi]

Here is a different question. Let us assume for a moment that the prophet did ask us to follow the ahle-bait.

Now as far as these things are concerned, Islam, fasting, praying, zakat, hajj, marriage, divorce, shirk, quran, parents rights, children's rights, orphan's rights, sadaqa, khairat, saying lies, adultery, fornication, theft, murder, rape or anything else that you might think of, can someone tell me if the ahle-bait have said anything or taught anything that the prophet hasn't taught already or has missed?

[Alislam]

_________________________________________________

Now as far as these things are concerned, Islam, fasting, praying, zakat, hajj, marriage, divorce, shirk, quran, parents rights, children's rights, orphan's rights, sadaqa, khairat, saying lies, adultery, fornication, theft, murder, rape or anything else that you might think of, can someone tell me if the ahle-bait have said anything or taught anything that the prophet hasn't taught already or has missed?

_______________________________________________

If all these were thought at the time of Prophet itself, then why would there be difference in their interpretation among different sects of muslims..

Quran is not for a time period but for a period till the Qiyamat and needs to be interpreted according to the times..

For many issues of today, you'll not find Ahadees (sunnah) cause it was not asked or the conditions did not prevailed..

<small>[ 04-26-2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

[anajmi]

Alislam,

Let me repeat my question.

Now as far as these things are concerned, Islam, fasting, praying, zakat, hajj, marriage, divorce, shirk, quran, parents rights, children's rights, orphan's rights, sadaqa, khairat, saying lies, adultery, fornication, theft, murder, rape or anything else that you might think of, can someone tell me if the ahle-bait have said anything or taught anything that the prophet hasn't taught already or has missed?

[JC]

AliSlam,

Exactly........that is my point too.

Quran is open to interpretation. AND there are many Mulsim sects who are interpreting it. So thw million dollar question is WHO IS RIGHT?

IF there are Ahle-Bait to guide where are they and who are they and WHY are they NOY guiding us, why on earth they are in PURDAH till today???

You very rightly said - there are tons of things today which were not there at Prophet's time, say organ donation/transplantation, going to moon .... so what does Islam say of those things. Are they in Quran, if yes, where and who and how will we learn that.

Perfection does not exist, it will come with time and age.

[Alislam]

_________________________________________________

You very rightly said - there are tons of things today which were not there at Prophet's time, say organ donation/transplantation, going to moon .... so what does Islam say of those things. Are they in Quran, if yes, where and who and how will we learn that.

________________________________________________

Ijtehad is the only way which can solve this issue to a major extent..

<small>[ 04-26-2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

[Admin]

Alislam,

In your posts you seem to be creating lines (with dashes?) to quote others' posts. May we request you to stop doing this as it throws off the formatting of the page.

If you need to quote someone you are responding to, you can click on the "quotation marks" icon on top of each post.

Thanks,

Admin

[anajmi]

Organ donation is not considered unislamic by a lot of Ulema.

The following institutes have called upon Muslims to donate organs for transplantation.

- the Shariah Academy of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (representing all Muslim countries)
- the Grand Ulema Council of Saudi Arabia.
- the Iranian Religious Authority
- the Al-Azhar Academy of Egypt

I am not sure if the ahle-bait are a part of any of the above institutes. If they are, please let me know.

[humble_servant_us]

Now as far as these things are concerned, Islam, fasting, praying, zakat, hajj, marriage, divorce, shirk, quran, parents rights, children's rights, orphan's rights, sadaqa, khairat, saying lies, adultery, fornication, theft, murder, rape or anything else that you might think of, can someone tell me if the ahle-bait have said anything or taught anything that the prophet hasn't taught already or has missed?

Various muslim sects have different ways of sunnah..most common example is the different ways of offering namaz. A religion of Islam which believes in unification of ummah will surely not allow different ways of offering namaz. In that context it doesn't make sense to accept that the prophet(pbuh) showed different ways of namaz.

Surely he(pbuh) wud have showed one way but the people after him manipulated and fabricated sunnah as per their likes and dislikes. The right sunnah needed to be preserved and this was protected by ahlul bait(as). They were the people who preached and practiced what prophet(pbuh) had done. They neither added nor deleted anything like others in history did which was made halal and haram by the allah(swt) through his messenger(pbuh). Questions unanswered during prophet's time(pbuh) were explained by them according to quran and the true hadis of prophet(pbuh)..

Over centuries they have educated the people to that level that when now the imam(as) is in occultation the scholars can do ijtehad and strive to deduce answers to newer problems of times.Why imam is in occultation is a different topic of discuss.

The ahlul bait (as) are Ali, fatema, hasan and husain and after him the children of husain upto the living imam (peace be upon all of them).

[khan19922001]

Dear Humble Servant

I think I have asked you this three times. Who and where is the Hazar Imam and how does one access him???

Out of interest, which Imam do your follow of the three identified so far.

Regards

[anajmi]

Actually, the prophet did pray namaz in different way. Like say for eg folding his hands or keeping them at his sides during qiyam are both ways the prophet used to pray. Sometimes the prophet said 4 sunnah before isha and sometimes 2 sunnah after.

And as far as the ahle - bait are concerned, kindly point me to one reference, just one, where Hazrat Ali (or one of the other ahle - bait) has said something about a sunnah which is different from any sahih hadith of the prophet.

[Danish]

Originally posted by khan19922001:
Who and where is the Hazar Imam and how does one access him???

They are all dead and none are returning. Invoking, imploring and summoning the dead is unIslamic, senseless and a spiritual crime.

[Danish]

...any sahih hadith of the prophet.[/QB]

"Sahih hadiths" by some unscrupulous individuals are nothing but a laughing stock and a talk-of-the-town.

Perhaps the following link would help understanding the Quran in its proper context:
www.aididsafar.com

[anajmi]

Danish,

If I cannot believe sahih hadith, then I definitely cannot believe anything posted by you or any web-site you refer to.

[humble_servant_us]

Actually, the prophet did pray namaz in different way. Like say for eg folding his hands or keeping them at his sides during qiyam are both ways the prophet used to pray. Sometimes the prophet said 4 sunnah before isha and sometimes 2 sunnah after

Moreover as ihave said islam is a religion which wants the ummah to move in one direction unitedly and that direction is seeking nearness to allah(swt), in that perpective using different ways of offering namaz hinders the complete mission as it divides us in sects where each sect start thinking the way they offer prayers is the most correct..i am sure prophet(pbuh) wud have never wanted this...islam wants a united one thought ummah...

ur above argument is probably based on sahih bukhari or muslim whose authenticity is under the scope of debate...

And as far as the ahle - bait are concerned, kindly point me to one reference, just one, where Hazrat Ali (or one of the other ahle - bait) has said something about a sunnah which is different from any sahih hadith of the prophet.

exactly that is what i am also saying, neither of ahlul bait have preached or practiced anything different than what prophet(pbuh) did...ur statement endorse my views..

here i take "sahih hadis" as what actually prophet(pbuh) preached or practiced and not what is there in bukhari or muslim.

[anajmi]

Moreover as ihave said islam is a religion which wants the ummah to move in one direction unitedly and that direction is seeking nearness to allah(swt), in that perpective using different ways of offering namaz hinders the complete mission as it divides us in sects where each sect start thinking the way they offer prayers is the most correct..i am sure prophet(pbuh) wud have never wanted this...islam wants a united one thought ummah...

The unity of muslims is hindered when people want the Ummah to move in one particular way, their way. How about you giving up the way you pray and picking up the way of the others? I have done that for the sake of the unity of the ummah, you can too. Different ways of offering namaz cause sects when you believe yours is the most correct way. If you can get over that there is nothing else coming in the way of this unity.

ur above argument is probably based on sahih bukhari or muslim whose authenticity is under the scope of debate...

And it is under debate by whom? 95% of the ummah believes them to be authentic and the remaining 5% haven't been able to prove that even 1% of it is false.

exactly that is what i am also saying, neither of ahlul bait have preached or practiced anything different than what prophet(pbuh) did...ur statement endorse my views..

Well, I am sure about that.

here i take "sahih hadis" as what actually prophet(pbuh) preached or practiced and not what is there in bukhari or muslim.

Then I am also sure you will be able to point out the differences between the sahih hadith (as per bukhari and muslim) and the sahih hadith as per the prophet himself, which was my first question anyways.