jawanmardan,
One other thing, if you find a single mullah who advocates that it is ok to kill innocent civilians during a suicide bombing, give me his name and number if possible. I will have him declared a non-muslim.
A Womans Place in Mosques
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
In the west, you must've heard of something called "collateral damage". This is a legal way to kill innocent civilians and then get away with it all the same time when you are describing how evil muslims are for killing innocents.
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jawanmardan
- Posts: 398
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:01 am
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Porus,
Salaam brother,
As I have said before; I view the structure of the Qu’ran as being fundamentally important in ascertaining readings from it. Its formless essence allows juxtaposing of ayah and its metaphorical language encourages great depth for study.
As Isma’ili Mustali or Nizari we both view the Qu’ran as also being “Created” theologically which allows us to reason, and justify contemporary interpretations to serve our modern community.
The ayah allowing the marriage of several women, once served an ancient community which had lost many men in the struggle for its survival, yet we know that the Ayah ends with the following injunction:
“but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
This clearly encourages Monogamy as the most desirable state, and as such relatively small numbers of Muslims ever enter into Polygamy today. Few contemporary and observant Muslim women would be capable of accepting sharing their man, as their aspirations have altered significantly, and so I would argue it would be almost impossible for a man to be able to deal justly with their needs.
Obviously any man and woman (women) who choose to enter such an arrangement should be free to so, as long as there is no coercion applied.
More Mosques like the Noor centre may encourage Muslim women to assume a more prominent platform largely denied them, and one would hope could encourage other sections of Muslim women to begin asking questions of their local Mosques and treatment.
salaam
Salaam brother,
As I have said before; I view the structure of the Qu’ran as being fundamentally important in ascertaining readings from it. Its formless essence allows juxtaposing of ayah and its metaphorical language encourages great depth for study.
As Isma’ili Mustali or Nizari we both view the Qu’ran as also being “Created” theologically which allows us to reason, and justify contemporary interpretations to serve our modern community.
The ayah allowing the marriage of several women, once served an ancient community which had lost many men in the struggle for its survival, yet we know that the Ayah ends with the following injunction:
“but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."
This clearly encourages Monogamy as the most desirable state, and as such relatively small numbers of Muslims ever enter into Polygamy today. Few contemporary and observant Muslim women would be capable of accepting sharing their man, as their aspirations have altered significantly, and so I would argue it would be almost impossible for a man to be able to deal justly with their needs.
Obviously any man and woman (women) who choose to enter such an arrangement should be free to so, as long as there is no coercion applied.
More Mosques like the Noor centre may encourage Muslim women to assume a more prominent platform largely denied them, and one would hope could encourage other sections of Muslim women to begin asking questions of their local Mosques and treatment.
salaam
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
jawanmardan,
salaams
Ever wondered why Bohras, and I suspect Ismailis, prohibit polygamy?
Prophet refused to permit Ali ib Abi Talib to make proposals of marriage to two women while he was married to his daughter Fatima. Prophet also refused to marry his daughters to men who were already married. Why? Would you agree to give away your daughter to a married man? No, you would follow the Sunna of the Prophet and refuse it.
If Ali had more than one wife after the death of Fatima, then it begs explanation.
Coming to 4:3, I put it up to see if bigots can provide an explanation. They cannot because they are not really Muslims, but bigots, anathema to all the teachings of Islam.
There are two reasons often cited for 4:3. One is that it was to restrict injustice to orpahned girls, whose property, was confiscated by those who pretended to care for them, sometimes by 'marrying' them without limit as to numbers. This was a common practise among the Arabs, especially the powerful ones.
The other reason is that the ayat refers to specific situation of orphaned girls only and not to women in general. 4:127 clearly confirms this.
To underline that monogamy is the correct institution, 4:129 talks about the impossibility of being fair to women. This abrogates any reference to twos, threes and fours in 4:3.
Having identified the zahir of Quran and Sunna as recommending Monogamy, we are still left with having to delve deeper into the symbology that these ayats invite us to contemplate. Let us remember that primary symbols in taawil are nature and man and primordial universe to which we are returning, all pointing essentially to Tawhid, or essential unity. Here is a clue to loyalty to one woman, like loyalty to one God.
As above, so below.
salaams
Ever wondered why Bohras, and I suspect Ismailis, prohibit polygamy?
Prophet refused to permit Ali ib Abi Talib to make proposals of marriage to two women while he was married to his daughter Fatima. Prophet also refused to marry his daughters to men who were already married. Why? Would you agree to give away your daughter to a married man? No, you would follow the Sunna of the Prophet and refuse it.
If Ali had more than one wife after the death of Fatima, then it begs explanation.
Coming to 4:3, I put it up to see if bigots can provide an explanation. They cannot because they are not really Muslims, but bigots, anathema to all the teachings of Islam.
There are two reasons often cited for 4:3. One is that it was to restrict injustice to orpahned girls, whose property, was confiscated by those who pretended to care for them, sometimes by 'marrying' them without limit as to numbers. This was a common practise among the Arabs, especially the powerful ones.
The other reason is that the ayat refers to specific situation of orphaned girls only and not to women in general. 4:127 clearly confirms this.
To underline that monogamy is the correct institution, 4:129 talks about the impossibility of being fair to women. This abrogates any reference to twos, threes and fours in 4:3.
Having identified the zahir of Quran and Sunna as recommending Monogamy, we are still left with having to delve deeper into the symbology that these ayats invite us to contemplate. Let us remember that primary symbols in taawil are nature and man and primordial universe to which we are returning, all pointing essentially to Tawhid, or essential unity. Here is a clue to loyalty to one woman, like loyalty to one God.
As above, so below.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
porus,
The fact that Ali wanted to have more than one wife tells you how much he understood the quran doesn't it? And he is supposed to be your first Imam!!
Quite a statement coming from someone who is a self proclaimed kafir. I have told you before that I am not interested in discussing the ayahs of the quran and sunnah with you. You forget to mention the fact that the prophet had 11-13 wives. What about following that sunnah? Oh but wait, you want us to follow not the sunnah of the prophet but the sunnah of porus!!They cannot because they are not really Muslims, but bigots, anathema to all the teachings of Islam.
The fact that Ali wanted to have more than one wife tells you how much he understood the quran doesn't it? And he is supposed to be your first Imam!!
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Imagine someone throwing stones at the quran to peddle his own taawil. The kafir forgot to mention the second part of 4:129. A kafir will only pick and choose that which advances his own agenda or re-inforces his own personal beliefs. He will also use 4:3 and 4:129 to claim that God is schizophrenic.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
If the Prophet and Ali were not following their own advise then, what does that show?
Maybe they had special permision from God. No? And there are precedents.
I stopped discussion of Quran with the bigot long time ago with a specific post saying that.
Maybe they had special permision from God. No? And there are precedents.
I stopped discussion of Quran with the bigot long time ago with a specific post saying that.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
That shows how much you have understood the quran. For someone who is unable to grasp the meaning of simple words like "can" and "or", to try to understand the quran would be a herculean task.
You "can" marry 2 or 3 or 4 if you think you can be just. If after marrying you try and can't be just then Allah is forgiving and merciful. And that makes him a schizophrenic according to your scientific brain.
It was in the power of the prophet to prevent Hazrat Ali from marrying someone else while Hazrat Fatima was alive, just as it is for any father these days. There is nothing in the quran which prevents a father from doing this if he thinks it is in the best interest of his daughter. Doesn't mean he was in favour of one ayah and against another. Your stupid brain cannot understand these things. Keep reading taawil. Try not to figure out the quran.
You "can" marry 2 or 3 or 4 if you think you can be just. If after marrying you try and can't be just then Allah is forgiving and merciful. And that makes him a schizophrenic according to your scientific brain.
It was in the power of the prophet to prevent Hazrat Ali from marrying someone else while Hazrat Fatima was alive, just as it is for any father these days. There is nothing in the quran which prevents a father from doing this if he thinks it is in the best interest of his daughter. Doesn't mean he was in favour of one ayah and against another. Your stupid brain cannot understand these things. Keep reading taawil. Try not to figure out the quran.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Where is 'can', 'or' in the ayat?Originally posted by bigot:
For someone who is unable to grasp the meaning of simple words like "can" and "or", to try to understand the quran would be a herculean task.
You "can" marry 2 or 3 or 4 if you think you can be just. If after marrying you try and can't be just then Allah is forgiving and merciful....
The bigot just peddles Yusufali. Actually, it is a conditional command:
"Marry two and three and four."
That means marry nine.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
porus,
As I said, do not trouble your brain trying to understand the quran. Keep reading taawil.
As I said, do not trouble your brain trying to understand the quran. Keep reading taawil.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
O Great Master of 'copy and paste Yusufali', I will take your advise and not bother understanding Yusufali (your Quran).
For others, there is no word for 'can' and 'or' in the ayat 4:3 in the Arabic Quran. And nothing at all in it about Allah forgiving when 'not being equitable' after marrying multiple women.
For others, there is no word for 'can' and 'or' in the ayat 4:3 in the Arabic Quran. And nothing at all in it about Allah forgiving when 'not being equitable' after marrying multiple women.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
porus,
If I have to choose between the yusufali quran and the porus quran, I will choose the yusufali quran because porus is a self proclaimed kafir. He will lead me straight to hell.
For the others, understand this, you "can" marry 2 "or" 3 "or" 4 (not 9 as the kafir suggests), if you can be just to them, but as the kafir pointed out, since it is impossible to be just, and if you still have to marry for some reason, like orphan girls as the kafir mentioned correctly, then you "can" since Allah is all forgiving. Now watch the kafir scouring Yusufali to find this the word "kafir" in 4:3.
If I have to choose between the yusufali quran and the porus quran, I will choose the yusufali quran because porus is a self proclaimed kafir. He will lead me straight to hell.
For the others, understand this, you "can" marry 2 "or" 3 "or" 4 (not 9 as the kafir suggests), if you can be just to them, but as the kafir pointed out, since it is impossible to be just, and if you still have to marry for some reason, like orphan girls as the kafir mentioned correctly, then you "can" since Allah is all forgiving. Now watch the kafir scouring Yusufali to find this the word "kafir" in 4:3.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Mirza has never claimed to be Jesus - he is the Mahdi. It is only Bukhari and his fellow Literary Club members who suggest that the Prophet indicated that Jesus will return when the Mahdi comes!
The purpose of posting the hadith was twofold - one to show that you can use a hadith to make any point as well as to query why the Prophet did not qulaify that statement by saying that it was better if women did not attend prayers at all.
Weird hadiths? But someone told me Bukhari did not write lies - so the second most important book in Islam has weird things?
The purpose of posting the hadith was twofold - one to show that you can use a hadith to make any point as well as to query why the Prophet did not qulaify that statement by saying that it was better if women did not attend prayers at all.
Weird hadiths? But someone told me Bukhari did not write lies - so the second most important book in Islam has weird things?
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
And the fourth rightly guided caliph! So are you ridiculing the Shias or questioning the virues of Ali?The fact that Ali wanted to have more than one wife tells you how much he understood the quran doesn't it? And he is supposed to be your first Imam!!
As for Ahmadiyyas intellectual capacity - they are, with the exception of the Bohras and Ismailis, the only Muslim community not to be deemed in desperate need of help. Look at the statistics from any international organisation - Muslims are bottom of the pile when it comes to capabilities. Wherever there is any sizeable ethnic population the Bangladeshis and Pakistanis are always rated below the national average; they only excel in preaching violence against non-Muslims. And then you have the Somalis and North Africans in Europe and what is their faith?
The Ahmadiyyas started their own TV channel and guess who followed their example? That's right -the Jamat-al-Sunah! And what do they churn out, endless tripe from so called scholars preaching non-obedience to local laws as obeying anyone other than the Mullahs is Shirk. They even broadcast "open" debates between their champion Deedat and Christian preachers. Despite valiant efforts by the editors and (crude) attempts to superimpose the Muslim version of the Bible over their printed text your champion looks a blithering idiot. Like everything the 7th Centurions do - they now have a proliferation of channnels (islam Channel, Noor Channel, Peace Channel etc etc)blaring out the same old rhetoric.
Anju luvvie - wake up - you have been conditioned by the Mullahs at the Madrassa. Read what your Madrassa masters have to say about modernity - the Wall Street Journal is a good place to start
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
This quote from a Pakistani scholar sums up why we have the likes of Anju and junior:
"I realized that there was a problem, that there was a storm coming because these young kids would be taught according to a very narrow syllabus - a very narrow syllabus. They were being taught only certain versus of the Qu’ran for instance. Now there’s nothing wrong that. The Qu’ran is the holy book of the Muslims. But if you restrict it only to certain versus and leave out the cultural context or political context, the historical context, you have a problem. You are then not only pointing to a hatred of the Jews and the Christians, but of other Muslims."
And more:
"Muslim society must rediscover its respect for tolerance, its respect for learning, its respect for others, for minorities and for women and that has to come." Akbar Ahmed Ibn Khaldun Chair of Islamic Studies at American University and the author of Islam Under Siege: Living Dangerously in a Post-Honor World
"I realized that there was a problem, that there was a storm coming because these young kids would be taught according to a very narrow syllabus - a very narrow syllabus. They were being taught only certain versus of the Qu’ran for instance. Now there’s nothing wrong that. The Qu’ran is the holy book of the Muslims. But if you restrict it only to certain versus and leave out the cultural context or political context, the historical context, you have a problem. You are then not only pointing to a hatred of the Jews and the Christians, but of other Muslims."
And more:
"Muslim society must rediscover its respect for tolerance, its respect for learning, its respect for others, for minorities and for women and that has to come." Akbar Ahmed Ibn Khaldun Chair of Islamic Studies at American University and the author of Islam Under Siege: Living Dangerously in a Post-Honor World
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Enemies of Islam do not have to visit message boards - they will get plenty of ammunition from the "official" sites of Jamat-al-Sunnah. They will get affirmation that the Sunnis rank Bukhari and his works very highly indeed. And as your fellow Muslims have very kindly provided almost the complete works in a searchable format you need to more than a Madraas level education to find the "weird" ones - better still Google for "hadith +contradiction" and you will find stuff that J K Rowling would wish she had penned.No one thinks Bukhari is god, but saying such things makes it easier for the enemies of Islam to attack Islam and muslims. A kafir will never understand Islam, the quran or the sunnah.
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
bhajipao,
Bullshit is learned only by morons like you. We are learning all the good stuff. Remember, you are the non-muslim over here. Even with the Mahdi, you got labelled as non-muslims. What could be worst. Maybe he should've attended a madrassa.
Bullshit is learned only by morons like you. We are learning all the good stuff. Remember, you are the non-muslim over here. Even with the Mahdi, you got labelled as non-muslims. What could be worst. Maybe he should've attended a madrassa.
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turbocanuck
- Posts: 1531
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:01 am
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
There he goes again issuing his "edict" or fatwa for dummies....Originally posted by anajmi:
bhajipao,
Remember, you are the non-muslim over here.
Goes twice-a-day to the Madrassa and this is the best "ilm" he can produce! God help us!!
turbonut
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
turbonut
What happened to your Hazar Imam? Is he out of commission?God help us!!
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turbocanuck
- Posts: 1531
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:01 am
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
"Hazar AND Maujood"Originally posted by anajmi:
turbonut
What happened to your Hazar Imam? Is he out of commission?God help us!!
Turbonut
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
God help us!!
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turbocanuck
- Posts: 1531
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:01 am
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
EXACTLY MY WORDS!!Originally posted by anajmi:
God help us!!
Re: A Womans Place in Mosques
Below is an article which appeared in the Hindustan Times Dt.22/10/2007.
Equality, at any cost
Sunita Aron
Pudukkottai (Tamil Nadu)
It's a big project, with all the necessary trappings - fund-related delays, a big bunch of opponents and, therefore, the need for secrecy of the kind surrounding a defence project. Will it ever be completed?
Deep inside a village in Tamil Nadu's Pudukkottai district is a building under construction. The base is ready and there are a couple of unfinished columns sticking out. It looks like some one ran out of money here.
And that, indeed, is the situation. The building is an unfinished mosque and its builder is a woman called Daud Sharifa Khanum. When, and if, it is completed, it will be the world's first mosque for women.
This will be the second first for Sharifa. Her first first was starting a jamaat made of only women. A jamaat is a group of religious leaders and elders for sorting community and domestic issues in villages. They are always made of men. And because jamaats are held in mosques - women never get a hearing, and cases involving them are settled without their presence or participation. Sharifa started jamaats of women.
The 41-year-old is a fulltime activist; she began social work in 1991. She was born in a large family of 10 siblings. Just after she was born, her parents separated, and Sharifa was raised by her mother, a teacher. Most of her education took place in Tamil Nadu. She then left for the famed Aligarh Muslim University to study office management. She lives with her husband, a businessman, in Pudukkottai.
Sharifa has grand plans. Not only will it be the first mosque open to women, it will also have women in all key positions there such as the muezzin (the one who calls for the prayer - the azaan) and the pesh imam (the one who leads the prayers). "We will invite men also," Sharifa says without a hint of rancour, "they can come and pray." But here is the revolutionary idea: "All positions of power and responsibility shall remain with women."
Just as she did with the jamaat. Her female jamaats have been so successful that even men approach them for help now. Also, the all-male jamaats are little more sensitive to women now.
The buzz around the mosque project is growing in the area. And though money is hard to find - the construction work happens in fits and bursts - there is hope that it will be completed. Some day.
An estimated 10,000 women showed up for prayers at the groundbreaking ceremony. Now, however, she is struggling for funds. Things haven't improved much since, despite many appeals. "I can complete the construction work in three months provided I have the funds," said Sharifa. The project began in 2003, and she hopes to complete it by 2009, if she can find the funds for it.
She says women had access to mosques during the Prophet's time, and to his abode, to clarify doubts. But, today, men have interpreted the religious tenets to their advantage, keeping women out. "Ninety percent of Muslim women face issues related to dowry, a practice prohibited in Islam. Rs 50,000 dowry and Rs 500 meher, our clerics know about it, but no one raises these isssue. But when it comes to discriminating against women, they never lose an opportunity. See how they opposed Sania Mirza, Imrana, Khushboo…"
Getting land for the mosque was difficult, too. Some people enthused by her campaign backed out when they heard the clerics were up in arms against Sharifa's mosque. She says clerics tell her to turn the building into a community centre - they are fine with that. There have been threats to her life, too, something that she does not take seriously despite police advice.
Eventually, Sharifa donated her own land. "How can anyone stop me from constructing anything on my land? I have kept our beliefs about the mosque direction in mind while getting it designed."
She agrees to give us a tour of the mosque - or the building under construction. But makes it a condition that we will not identify the village. We agree readily. The building has plenty of natural green cover.
The project is likely to cost Rs 35 lakh. She has launched a $1 million project urging her friends in India and abroad to donate a dollar each. And her appeal has started fetching support. A friend sent her Rs 55,000.
In her appeal, she says: "I appeal to you to contribute to accomplish the historical edifice, which stands as a mark of rights of Muslim women and ensures space for them."
And here is her ultimate dream: down the road from her mosque is a church managed by two sisters, and there is a temple that is being looked after by the 75-year-old mother of the man who made it. "One day this would emerge as the biggest holy centre in the world run and owned by women."
For now, she says, work will resume shortly on the mosque.
saron@hindustantimes.com
Equality, at any cost
Sunita Aron
Pudukkottai (Tamil Nadu)
It's a big project, with all the necessary trappings - fund-related delays, a big bunch of opponents and, therefore, the need for secrecy of the kind surrounding a defence project. Will it ever be completed?
Deep inside a village in Tamil Nadu's Pudukkottai district is a building under construction. The base is ready and there are a couple of unfinished columns sticking out. It looks like some one ran out of money here.
And that, indeed, is the situation. The building is an unfinished mosque and its builder is a woman called Daud Sharifa Khanum. When, and if, it is completed, it will be the world's first mosque for women.
This will be the second first for Sharifa. Her first first was starting a jamaat made of only women. A jamaat is a group of religious leaders and elders for sorting community and domestic issues in villages. They are always made of men. And because jamaats are held in mosques - women never get a hearing, and cases involving them are settled without their presence or participation. Sharifa started jamaats of women.
The 41-year-old is a fulltime activist; she began social work in 1991. She was born in a large family of 10 siblings. Just after she was born, her parents separated, and Sharifa was raised by her mother, a teacher. Most of her education took place in Tamil Nadu. She then left for the famed Aligarh Muslim University to study office management. She lives with her husband, a businessman, in Pudukkottai.
Sharifa has grand plans. Not only will it be the first mosque open to women, it will also have women in all key positions there such as the muezzin (the one who calls for the prayer - the azaan) and the pesh imam (the one who leads the prayers). "We will invite men also," Sharifa says without a hint of rancour, "they can come and pray." But here is the revolutionary idea: "All positions of power and responsibility shall remain with women."
Just as she did with the jamaat. Her female jamaats have been so successful that even men approach them for help now. Also, the all-male jamaats are little more sensitive to women now.
The buzz around the mosque project is growing in the area. And though money is hard to find - the construction work happens in fits and bursts - there is hope that it will be completed. Some day.
An estimated 10,000 women showed up for prayers at the groundbreaking ceremony. Now, however, she is struggling for funds. Things haven't improved much since, despite many appeals. "I can complete the construction work in three months provided I have the funds," said Sharifa. The project began in 2003, and she hopes to complete it by 2009, if she can find the funds for it.
She says women had access to mosques during the Prophet's time, and to his abode, to clarify doubts. But, today, men have interpreted the religious tenets to their advantage, keeping women out. "Ninety percent of Muslim women face issues related to dowry, a practice prohibited in Islam. Rs 50,000 dowry and Rs 500 meher, our clerics know about it, but no one raises these isssue. But when it comes to discriminating against women, they never lose an opportunity. See how they opposed Sania Mirza, Imrana, Khushboo…"
Getting land for the mosque was difficult, too. Some people enthused by her campaign backed out when they heard the clerics were up in arms against Sharifa's mosque. She says clerics tell her to turn the building into a community centre - they are fine with that. There have been threats to her life, too, something that she does not take seriously despite police advice.
Eventually, Sharifa donated her own land. "How can anyone stop me from constructing anything on my land? I have kept our beliefs about the mosque direction in mind while getting it designed."
She agrees to give us a tour of the mosque - or the building under construction. But makes it a condition that we will not identify the village. We agree readily. The building has plenty of natural green cover.
The project is likely to cost Rs 35 lakh. She has launched a $1 million project urging her friends in India and abroad to donate a dollar each. And her appeal has started fetching support. A friend sent her Rs 55,000.
In her appeal, she says: "I appeal to you to contribute to accomplish the historical edifice, which stands as a mark of rights of Muslim women and ensures space for them."
And here is her ultimate dream: down the road from her mosque is a church managed by two sisters, and there is a temple that is being looked after by the 75-year-old mother of the man who made it. "One day this would emerge as the biggest holy centre in the world run and owned by women."
For now, she says, work will resume shortly on the mosque.
saron@hindustantimes.com