A lot of creative ideas are generating out of this debate.
However, if you look at the history and bohra history in particular there are no traces of reform movement bringing vital changes to the existing establishment. It is usually a break-up of the existing establishment resulting in creation of new establishment. Further outside forces do not play any major role but it is the in fight between inners circle for the succession that results in break-up.
Udaipur fiasco was rather accidental. It erupted from nowhere. May be the arrogance of Yusuf Najmuddin was the key factor. It would be unfair to give credit any reform leader.
It is claimed that people in Udaipur are living with reform to the existing system. How that can be existing system? In my opinion it is a nameless and direction less system. Worst form of break-up than what we have seen in the past.
So again my advise is to wait. Meanwhile take this opportunity to organize yourself. Organization does not mean creating few pockets of reform clubs at some places. It means consensus on a bigger scale and you are being recognised as power.
If you are organized, then when final hour for succession comes, the incumbent candidates for the succession will come at your door for your support. At that time you can dictate your agenda before promising any support.
Moharram
Re: Moharram
accountability,
You are right, there are a lot of contradictions in religion, I consider you to be one of those contradictions.
You are right, there are a lot of contradictions in religion, I consider you to be one of those contradictions.
Re: Moharram
You forget a simple thing. We are all here to give a test. The jews who were getting prepared food failed the test. Even though there were a lot of starving people, the jews still wouldn't eat the ready-made food. Go figure.My question, why did God just shower his mercy and kindness on one group of people. At 2500 BC approximate timing of Moses according to old testament, the world population was atleast 100 million. Israelites were only couple of thousand. So while rest of the humanity was starving, god was sending prepared food from heaven to them. God being the creator of all, wouldn't he care for all his creation.
By the way, these jews were left stranded in the wilderness for 40 years and they've been having to fight for the land that God promised them with a bunch of malnourished kids throwing stones.
Re: Moharram
One other thing, the jews were chosen because God wanted them to spread his message, not because they caught his fancy for some reason as you might think.
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aliasgarkb
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
World human population touched the 100 million mark not before 500 B.C. In 2500 BC it was about 20.5 million.Originally posted by accountability:
At 2500 BC approximate timing of Moses according to old testament, the world population was atleast 100 million. Israelites were only couple of thousand.
Historical Estimates of World Population
Re: Moharram
Jpasand,
Stop shooting in the dark. You don't know what you're talking about. Have you been to Udaipur, are you from Udaipur? If not then you don't have the slightest idea what reformists are doing in Udaipur. Stop using the phrase "it is claimed", it shows your ignorance. And what do you mean by "worst form of break-up"? All earlier break-ups occurred because of succession disputes and NOT as a result of any reform movement. Even if you think that the Udaipur experiment is a break-up, it is not the worst but the best because it is born out of values and principles that reformists uphold.
But leave aside Udaipur, its leaders, its achievements. Let's assume they count for nothing. The point is where do you go from here. You say, wait and organise. Okay, let's do that. Are you ready to organise, or are just going to wait for somebody else to do it for you?
Stop shooting in the dark. You don't know what you're talking about. Have you been to Udaipur, are you from Udaipur? If not then you don't have the slightest idea what reformists are doing in Udaipur. Stop using the phrase "it is claimed", it shows your ignorance. And what do you mean by "worst form of break-up"? All earlier break-ups occurred because of succession disputes and NOT as a result of any reform movement. Even if you think that the Udaipur experiment is a break-up, it is not the worst but the best because it is born out of values and principles that reformists uphold.
But leave aside Udaipur, its leaders, its achievements. Let's assume they count for nothing. The point is where do you go from here. You say, wait and organise. Okay, let's do that. Are you ready to organise, or are just going to wait for somebody else to do it for you?
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Thanks for correction. Still Israelites were less than couple thousand.
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Quote from Humsafar
Stop shooting in the dark
For your information, I have traveled to Udaipuri more than once and I met lots of Udaipuris around the globe over the last several decades. I know the Taj family,paliwal,kathawala and others from the time when present reform movement activists were called medina na Loggo
Further, I may recognize you with your real identity, if you are a big name in the Udaipur movement.
However, it is your ignorance to think that all others are living in darkness.
It is better if you let me stop here. Thanks.
Stop shooting in the dark
For your information, I have traveled to Udaipuri more than once and I met lots of Udaipuris around the globe over the last several decades. I know the Taj family,paliwal,kathawala and others from the time when present reform movement activists were called medina na Loggo
Further, I may recognize you with your real identity, if you are a big name in the Udaipur movement.
However, it is your ignorance to think that all others are living in darkness.
It is better if you let me stop here. Thanks.
Re: Moharram
Jpasand,
Still, you are forming your opinion on half-baked incomplete information. The names you name doesn't mean a thing. Anway, forget Udaipur. The question is, what next?
Still, you are forming your opinion on half-baked incomplete information. The names you name doesn't mean a thing. Anway, forget Udaipur. The question is, what next?
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear Humsafar
Before I can answer your's "what next".
The leadership of reform have to answer the questions from my friend Ezzoud ( I want to forget Udaipur but what he referred to in point 2 has occurred in Udaipur )
The questions that need to be answered are as follows:
1. Why has the 1986 Trust sat back and observed the decline of the DBWS movement in the UK.
2. What is the 1986 Trust doing in stemming the the ever increasing flow of reformists in the UK joining the Kothar Jumaats.
3. With reformist activities in the UK near non existent, How can the 1986 Trust and its assets be disbanded to ensure the emphasis is put back into the local Jumaats.
Salaams Ezzoud
Before I can answer your's "what next".
The leadership of reform have to answer the questions from my friend Ezzoud ( I want to forget Udaipur but what he referred to in point 2 has occurred in Udaipur )
The questions that need to be answered are as follows:
1. Why has the 1986 Trust sat back and observed the decline of the DBWS movement in the UK.
2. What is the 1986 Trust doing in stemming the the ever increasing flow of reformists in the UK joining the Kothar Jumaats.
3. With reformist activities in the UK near non existent, How can the 1986 Trust and its assets be disbanded to ensure the emphasis is put back into the local Jumaats.
Salaams Ezzoud
Re: Moharram
JP,
I don't understand why your action should be hinged on answers to these questions. Ezzoud raised very relevant questions, but you must know that the "reform leadership" is not obliged to answer these questions. The 1986 Trust is a private trust and not a part of any UK jamaat; no doubt it is a reformist trust but the way it is constituted, it is not accountable to anyone (something which I strongly disapprove of). Answers to these questions must come from the trustees.
As to questions what this trust was doing when "reformist were leaving" or why "reformist activities are non-existent" - it is not the trust’s role to look after these issues. It's the local jamaats and every reformist individual (including Ezzoud) who must answer these questions.
I don't understand why your action should be hinged on answers to these questions. Ezzoud raised very relevant questions, but you must know that the "reform leadership" is not obliged to answer these questions. The 1986 Trust is a private trust and not a part of any UK jamaat; no doubt it is a reformist trust but the way it is constituted, it is not accountable to anyone (something which I strongly disapprove of). Answers to these questions must come from the trustees.
As to questions what this trust was doing when "reformist were leaving" or why "reformist activities are non-existent" - it is not the trust’s role to look after these issues. It's the local jamaats and every reformist individual (including Ezzoud) who must answer these questions.
Re: Moharram
Kabeer,
You escaped physical harassment thanks to your significant financial contribution. However, by thus bribing the kothar, you not only condoned their atrocious demands but your inaction also encouraged the kothar to continue to suck the lifeblood out of the poor Bohras. And, as you know, it doesn’t end with money. They are not satisfied until they have completely crushed your self esteem, and turned you away from Allah and into Syedna worshiping zombies. This has to weigh heavy on your conscience. With money comes power and influence. You had enough influence to turn the otherwise unthinkable punishment for not regularly attending darees into friendly chides! Rather than using your influence to rescue the helpless Bohras, you decided to walk out on them! You bought your way out of physical harassment only to inflict a spiritual one on yourself. So, here’s an opportunity to redeem yourself brother. Join the reform movement. Emancipate our helpless brothers who are physically, emotionally and spiritually enslaved by the ruthless kothar.
The kadambosi, matam, roza and other rites and practices that were bogging you down, this modified system, is the brainchild of Burhanuddin and his father. This is not our original tradition. So, let’s together clean up the system. The beauty of the reform movement is that your personal and religious beliefs are intact here. Without any undue pressure, you’ll be able to “pray five times in any mosque without any harassment, pray Juma in the Holy Harams wiith the congregation and not slip in like some "fugitive".â€
You escaped physical harassment thanks to your significant financial contribution. However, by thus bribing the kothar, you not only condoned their atrocious demands but your inaction also encouraged the kothar to continue to suck the lifeblood out of the poor Bohras. And, as you know, it doesn’t end with money. They are not satisfied until they have completely crushed your self esteem, and turned you away from Allah and into Syedna worshiping zombies. This has to weigh heavy on your conscience. With money comes power and influence. You had enough influence to turn the otherwise unthinkable punishment for not regularly attending darees into friendly chides! Rather than using your influence to rescue the helpless Bohras, you decided to walk out on them! You bought your way out of physical harassment only to inflict a spiritual one on yourself. So, here’s an opportunity to redeem yourself brother. Join the reform movement. Emancipate our helpless brothers who are physically, emotionally and spiritually enslaved by the ruthless kothar.
The kadambosi, matam, roza and other rites and practices that were bogging you down, this modified system, is the brainchild of Burhanuddin and his father. This is not our original tradition. So, let’s together clean up the system. The beauty of the reform movement is that your personal and religious beliefs are intact here. Without any undue pressure, you’ll be able to “pray five times in any mosque without any harassment, pray Juma in the Holy Harams wiith the congregation and not slip in like some "fugitive".â€
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear Rahi
As noted earlier, I do not agree with the Bohri beliefs. Starting from the imamate concept, which if you have read Farhad Daftary book " The Ismailis" is a dubious foundation. I was amazed over the number of Imams, their lineage etc when I read this book. Its an eye opener for all.
Anyway, this book has nothing to do with my turning away from the Bohra fold. All way through the Progressives have maintianed that they are Dawoodi Bohra's. I do not want to remin or identify myself with this Dawoodi Bohra concept. I cannot accept the "religous" beleifs of both progressive and orthodox set which are essentially the same.
I want to be way from misak, raza, matam etc. Tell me that the Progressive do not do "matam"
Will write later as am busy with some tax work.
Regards
As noted earlier, I do not agree with the Bohri beliefs. Starting from the imamate concept, which if you have read Farhad Daftary book " The Ismailis" is a dubious foundation. I was amazed over the number of Imams, their lineage etc when I read this book. Its an eye opener for all.
Anyway, this book has nothing to do with my turning away from the Bohra fold. All way through the Progressives have maintianed that they are Dawoodi Bohra's. I do not want to remin or identify myself with this Dawoodi Bohra concept. I cannot accept the "religous" beleifs of both progressive and orthodox set which are essentially the same.
I want to be way from misak, raza, matam etc. Tell me that the Progressive do not do "matam"
Will write later as am busy with some tax work.
Regards
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear RAhi
Parting shot. You refer to rich culture. What rich culture. This is the hindu culture and I want to forget it asap.
Regards
Parting shot. You refer to rich culture. What rich culture. This is the hindu culture and I want to forget it asap.
Regards
Re: Moharram
Kabeer,
I'm assuming that you're of Indian origin. If so, you must know that your forefathers most probably were Hindus who converted to Islam. Given your geographical history and background, Hindu culture is your "natural and organic" culture. It is Islamic culture, steeped as it is in Arabian culture and language, that is far more alien and foreign to you than Hindu culture can ever be. And the Indian Bohra culture – with its Hindu flavours - is more germane to you than your adopted "wahabi" culture can ever be.
Besides, all cultures are rich in their own right. By showing contempt - What rich culture. This is the hindu culture and I want to forget it asap - you are not only showing your ignorance but also your racism.
I'm assuming that you're of Indian origin. If so, you must know that your forefathers most probably were Hindus who converted to Islam. Given your geographical history and background, Hindu culture is your "natural and organic" culture. It is Islamic culture, steeped as it is in Arabian culture and language, that is far more alien and foreign to you than Hindu culture can ever be. And the Indian Bohra culture – with its Hindu flavours - is more germane to you than your adopted "wahabi" culture can ever be.
Besides, all cultures are rich in their own right. By showing contempt - What rich culture. This is the hindu culture and I want to forget it asap - you are not only showing your ignorance but also your racism.
Re: Moharram
I agree with Humsafar RE: Kabeer
Our culture influences our outlook and interpretation of Islam. It makes us unique compared to the Wahabbis. Saying that this is Hindu culture and you wanting to forget it sounds dangerously like the crazy Talibans who were blowing up statues. Tolerance is paramount to inner growth. People do have the right to evolve religion to fit their particular cultural norms. It makes the world interesting! You may not agree with the practices, but at least have the courage to free your mind and look and the wonderment of Allah in Mankind!
Our culture influences our outlook and interpretation of Islam. It makes us unique compared to the Wahabbis. Saying that this is Hindu culture and you wanting to forget it sounds dangerously like the crazy Talibans who were blowing up statues. Tolerance is paramount to inner growth. People do have the right to evolve religion to fit their particular cultural norms. It makes the world interesting! You may not agree with the practices, but at least have the courage to free your mind and look and the wonderment of Allah in Mankind!
Re: Moharram
Al-M,
Previously you said:
Humsafar:
The likes of you and anajmi, i'm afraid, will always remain backwords. Go on to your internet cafes and pretend you know that the world actually buys your BS... .the rest of us actually make a difference in this owrld...that's what separates losers like you and the rest of us.
Please explain your sudden change of stance.
Previously you said:
Humsafar:
The likes of you and anajmi, i'm afraid, will always remain backwords. Go on to your internet cafes and pretend you know that the world actually buys your BS... .the rest of us actually make a difference in this owrld...that's what separates losers like you and the rest of us.
Please explain your sudden change of stance.
Re: Moharram
It's not a change of stance, my brother:)
I have always believed-and still do-that every single person is entitled to their interpretation of religion. Religion is an evolving concept...as long as we humans are thinking beings, every concept around us evolves. HOWEVER, I do not believe in forcing down peoples' throats beliefs-and to belittle those who think differently-as long as one does not turn around and impose their thought processes on others as well.
We all drink from the eternal well of God. Our thirst for knowledge should not be subdued just because the water has some dirt on it....the source is clean, isn't it?
Religion fanatism is my pet-peeve. I solidly believe that if one just contemplates the world around them, one becomes much closer to Allah.
I have always believed-and still do-that every single person is entitled to their interpretation of religion. Religion is an evolving concept...as long as we humans are thinking beings, every concept around us evolves. HOWEVER, I do not believe in forcing down peoples' throats beliefs-and to belittle those who think differently-as long as one does not turn around and impose their thought processes on others as well.
We all drink from the eternal well of God. Our thirst for knowledge should not be subdued just because the water has some dirt on it....the source is clean, isn't it?
Religion fanatism is my pet-peeve. I solidly believe that if one just contemplates the world around them, one becomes much closer to Allah.
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Humsafar/Rahi
Although Rahi has not responded, I believe that his response will not be different from Humsafar.
I am of Indian origin. As I replied to Rahi, what is the difference between the Progressives and Orthodox where religion is concerned. For example:
a) Will the Progressive pray in a Sunni mosque or like the orthos shun them and say that they are without raza and therfore not in "hadd" or something?
b) Will the progressive continue with the cleebration of Moharram?
c) Will the progressive pray 5 times or 3 times
There a number of questions and for all practical purposes the PRogressive follow the Bohra faith, because that is what they are.
Humsafer what "rich" Hindu/Bohra culture part do you want me to continue with:
a) the aarti or vadhana
b) the "kadam bossi" or poa laggon
c) the marsiyas or bhajans
I do not want my children to get involved in the so called ritulas as I did and forget all about the basic obligatory duties.
All these rituals customes etc which are an integral part of the Bohri/Hindu culture were getting too much for me to follow. I could not take the stress of jamans, matam, kadam bossi, raza, mesak etc and wanted to be FREE.
For people who want to continue with the "culture" its their choice.
Regards
Although Rahi has not responded, I believe that his response will not be different from Humsafar.
I am of Indian origin. As I replied to Rahi, what is the difference between the Progressives and Orthodox where religion is concerned. For example:
a) Will the Progressive pray in a Sunni mosque or like the orthos shun them and say that they are without raza and therfore not in "hadd" or something?
b) Will the progressive continue with the cleebration of Moharram?
c) Will the progressive pray 5 times or 3 times
There a number of questions and for all practical purposes the PRogressive follow the Bohra faith, because that is what they are.
Humsafer what "rich" Hindu/Bohra culture part do you want me to continue with:
a) the aarti or vadhana
b) the "kadam bossi" or poa laggon
c) the marsiyas or bhajans
I do not want my children to get involved in the so called ritulas as I did and forget all about the basic obligatory duties.
All these rituals customes etc which are an integral part of the Bohri/Hindu culture were getting too much for me to follow. I could not take the stress of jamans, matam, kadam bossi, raza, mesak etc and wanted to be FREE.
For people who want to continue with the "culture" its their choice.
Regards
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Where did I say that the Hindu culture is good or bad. All I said was that I wanted to get out of it. I am not a Hindu and therefore do not want to follow Hindu practices. The Hindu culture is excellent, if you are a Hindu.
You keep on labelling me a "wahabi". While it does not offend me, because I have come to practice most of thier beleifs, its the way you degrade them that shows your "racist" views.
While I may become a wahabi or whatever, I still like to wear the Kurta/ Ijaar, I still like to eat Dal Chawal Palida and biryani. Its not as I have started to wear the Saudi dress and started eating the Saudi food, most of them are too rich for me. I am still a Pakistani and still walk, talk, eat and behave like a Pakistani for as long as I live.
Most of the muslims in the Sub-continent were converts, however, its the Bohris only who seem to hang on to their Hindu customs.
You keep on labelling me a "wahabi". While it does not offend me, because I have come to practice most of thier beleifs, its the way you degrade them that shows your "racist" views.
While I may become a wahabi or whatever, I still like to wear the Kurta/ Ijaar, I still like to eat Dal Chawal Palida and biryani. Its not as I have started to wear the Saudi dress and started eating the Saudi food, most of them are too rich for me. I am still a Pakistani and still walk, talk, eat and behave like a Pakistani for as long as I live.
Most of the muslims in the Sub-continent were converts, however, its the Bohris only who seem to hang on to their Hindu customs.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
AL-Muizz wrote:
Islam is a simple religion to follow and how to be good Muslim is well documented. Ismailis of past and present (Bohras and Agakhanis) are forever introducing innovation in religion.
Let me quote Murad Hoffman in his book in his book “Islam the Alternativeâ€
What loaded crap.Religion is an evolving concept...
Islam is a simple religion to follow and how to be good Muslim is well documented. Ismailis of past and present (Bohras and Agakhanis) are forever introducing innovation in religion.
Let me quote Murad Hoffman in his book in his book “Islam the Alternativeâ€
Re: Moharram
Kabeer,
You got me confused. You started by questioning how the progressives would elect the Dai when you don’t even believe in his office! When I asked the ex-bohras to come back and join the reform, I thought I’d made it clear that I was appealing only to the ones who left because they were disenchanted with kothar and the current system. Yet you responded giving several reasons.
Of your various reasons, all of them other than prayers were basically complaints about the current practice – salam, matam, jaman, raza, kadambosi, misaq. With the exception of praying five times versus three, you gave the impression that you left because of these practices, when in truth you do not even agree with the entire Ismaili system, as you later stated.
Now you’re questioning the differences between the progressives and the othrodox. Here they are:
There is no concept of raza in progressives. We are all free to follow our beliefs to our comfort level. And we do not need permission from anyone to live our life our way.
Now, here are the differences between progressives and orthorox with respect to the concerns you raised that were not addressed above:
1) A progressive can pray Juma in the Holy Harams with the congregation and does not have to slip in like some "fugitive".
2) Progressives do not believe in kadambosi. You shouldn’t have to bow down to anyone other than Allah.
3) Progressives do matam like other shias. But they strongly disagree with the way it is practiced by the orthodox today. Also, a progressive is not compelled to do matam. There are reformists here in Udaipur who do not practice it because they do not believe in it. I say again, progressives want you to practice your religious beliefs to your comfort level without any compulsion.
Regarding the culture, you’re right, I completely agree with Humsafar. I couldn’t have said it better. It doesn't require any further discussion here and would only force us to digress from the reform issue.
By the way, by making "significant financial contributionsâ€
You got me confused. You started by questioning how the progressives would elect the Dai when you don’t even believe in his office! When I asked the ex-bohras to come back and join the reform, I thought I’d made it clear that I was appealing only to the ones who left because they were disenchanted with kothar and the current system. Yet you responded giving several reasons.
Of your various reasons, all of them other than prayers were basically complaints about the current practice – salam, matam, jaman, raza, kadambosi, misaq. With the exception of praying five times versus three, you gave the impression that you left because of these practices, when in truth you do not even agree with the entire Ismaili system, as you later stated.
Now you’re questioning the differences between the progressives and the othrodox. Here they are:
Progressives have absolutely no problems with anyone praying in any mosque. A mosque is the house of Allah and is meant for that.a) Will the Progressive pray in a Sunni mosque or like the orthos shun them and say that they are without raza and therfore not in "hadd" or something?
There is no concept of raza in progressives. We are all free to follow our beliefs to our comfort level. And we do not need permission from anyone to live our life our way.
We are shias and will continue to prescribe to the shia belief. Please remember, it is not our mission to modify the Bohra religion in any way, as has been mentioned by several people at several occasions. The reform movement addresses social reform.b) Will the progressive continue with the cleebration of Moharram?
We, Bohras, pray three times a week. But, as I’d mentioned before, we do not have any problems with someone praying five times. Again, I know a lot of progressives here in Udaipur, some related to me, who pray five times. Don’t forget, we are talking about social reform.c) Will the progressive pray 5 times or 3 times
Now, here are the differences between progressives and orthorox with respect to the concerns you raised that were not addressed above:
1) A progressive can pray Juma in the Holy Harams with the congregation and does not have to slip in like some "fugitive".
2) Progressives do not believe in kadambosi. You shouldn’t have to bow down to anyone other than Allah.
3) Progressives do matam like other shias. But they strongly disagree with the way it is practiced by the orthodox today. Also, a progressive is not compelled to do matam. There are reformists here in Udaipur who do not practice it because they do not believe in it. I say again, progressives want you to practice your religious beliefs to your comfort level without any compulsion.
Regarding the culture, you’re right, I completely agree with Humsafar. I couldn’t have said it better. It doesn't require any further discussion here and would only force us to digress from the reform issue.
By the way, by making "significant financial contributionsâ€
Re: Moharram
Rahi,
I have asked this question before and may or may not have been answered but here it is again.
These social reforms that progressives are proposing. Can you list a summary in bullet form? I would appreciate it if you could mention the current problem and your proposed solution. If you want you can start a new thread and mention them over there.
I have asked this question before and may or may not have been answered but here it is again.
These social reforms that progressives are proposing. Can you list a summary in bullet form? I would appreciate it if you could mention the current problem and your proposed solution. If you want you can start a new thread and mention them over there.
Re: Moharram
This is for Kabeer.........
This video clip is really interesting
it is a must see for you and your family
See and hear for yourself There are no such thing as 3 times prayer. Listen and understand
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9160070561
This video clip is really interesting
it is a must see for you and your family
See and hear for yourself There are no such thing as 3 times prayer. Listen and understand
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9160070561
Re: Moharram
Kabeer,
There is NO difference between the Progressives and Orthodox where religion is concerned. The progressives are concerned with social issues. Moreover, your objections to the Bohra practice - praying 3 times, Moharram, not praying in a sunni mosque etc. - are not only minor and peripheral issues, but not even essentially religious in nature. I cannot understand why one should abandon Bohra faith over these things. (BTW, reformists do challenge the 'raza' business.)
As for the Hindu/bohra culture, you entirely missed my point. What I'm saying is that the Hindu/Bohra culture which you speak of with disdain is your true cultural heritage. By virtue of you being a south Asian, you are culturally, racially, historically and geographically more closely bonded to the Hindu culture than to the Arab culture (which Islam represents).
The ritual you point out "the aarti or vadhana", "the kadam bossi or poa laggon", "the marsiyas or bhajans" are, whether you like them or not, are rooted in the land you come from. You have more ethnic, cultural claims over them than you have over say, the Arab ritual of circumambulating the Kaba or slaughtering a goat.
The Muslims colonised India so did the British. Islam is the religion of Muslim colonialists that Indians adopted in the same way as Christianity is the religion of Europeans colonialists that Indians adopted. You as a Muslim are as much a product of Muslim colonisation as an Indian Christian is of European colonisation. Of course, all this is past and the question is how far back in history one should go to tease out one's "original organic" culture. You've to draw a line somewhere. So let's accept this difficulty, but at the same time let's also accept that Islam is as much foreign and alien to the original Hindu ethos (of our forefatehrs) as any other foreign religion/culture.
So let’s accept that we are Muslim/Bohras and share some unique non-Arab cultural variations with the culture of our land. In fact we should cherish these differences and NOT try to morph into an alien, foreign culture. It is bad enough that we are religiously colonised, but at least keep what truly belong to us.
I find it amusing, as well as tragic, that upstart colonised converts like you should have the gumption to turn around and ridicule (“forget it asapâ€
There is NO difference between the Progressives and Orthodox where religion is concerned. The progressives are concerned with social issues. Moreover, your objections to the Bohra practice - praying 3 times, Moharram, not praying in a sunni mosque etc. - are not only minor and peripheral issues, but not even essentially religious in nature. I cannot understand why one should abandon Bohra faith over these things. (BTW, reformists do challenge the 'raza' business.)
As for the Hindu/bohra culture, you entirely missed my point. What I'm saying is that the Hindu/Bohra culture which you speak of with disdain is your true cultural heritage. By virtue of you being a south Asian, you are culturally, racially, historically and geographically more closely bonded to the Hindu culture than to the Arab culture (which Islam represents).
The ritual you point out "the aarti or vadhana", "the kadam bossi or poa laggon", "the marsiyas or bhajans" are, whether you like them or not, are rooted in the land you come from. You have more ethnic, cultural claims over them than you have over say, the Arab ritual of circumambulating the Kaba or slaughtering a goat.
The Muslims colonised India so did the British. Islam is the religion of Muslim colonialists that Indians adopted in the same way as Christianity is the religion of Europeans colonialists that Indians adopted. You as a Muslim are as much a product of Muslim colonisation as an Indian Christian is of European colonisation. Of course, all this is past and the question is how far back in history one should go to tease out one's "original organic" culture. You've to draw a line somewhere. So let's accept this difficulty, but at the same time let's also accept that Islam is as much foreign and alien to the original Hindu ethos (of our forefatehrs) as any other foreign religion/culture.
So let’s accept that we are Muslim/Bohras and share some unique non-Arab cultural variations with the culture of our land. In fact we should cherish these differences and NOT try to morph into an alien, foreign culture. It is bad enough that we are religiously colonised, but at least keep what truly belong to us.
I find it amusing, as well as tragic, that upstart colonised converts like you should have the gumption to turn around and ridicule (“forget it asapâ€
Re: Moharram
anajmi,
In answer to your question, read this article: http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/issues/separation.htm
In answer to your question, read this article: http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/issues/separation.htm
Re: Moharram
Muslim First,
Religion must evovle or, like everything else that stop evolving, die. By evolution, one does not mean that basic tenets and princilples must change but their interpretations and application must with changing realities. (pls do not draw me into a debate to elaborate this. I've written on it repeatedly in previous posts.)
Religion must evovle or, like everything else that stop evolving, die. By evolution, one does not mean that basic tenets and princilples must change but their interpretations and application must with changing realities. (pls do not draw me into a debate to elaborate this. I've written on it repeatedly in previous posts.)
Re: Moharram
O.K. Truly, who here really believes Islam as a religious belief is UNIQUE? TheHoly Quran clearly shows you that Islam is an evolution of ideologies as well! Why would Allah Subhanahu then quote the Torah and Ingeel as the Books as well? Undoubtedly, RasulAllah SAW was influenced by the Yehudis and the Christian thought processes. Their rituals would not have been incorporated in Islam, otherwise. Just look at the Halaal and Kosher, etc, etc. Orthodox Jews wear a beard that they are told not to cut, etc. I've been to Isreal, and I've seen these Othodox Jews, talked to them, observed their rituals...and they seem to be logical points for Islamic rites and rituals!
Sure, we Muslims BELIEVE that RasulAllah SAW was the last Prophet of Allah, but just ponder this for a moment....the Jews thought of Musa Nabi the same way, the Christians believed in Isa Nabi the same way.....and on and on....
We follow Islam because its concepts and beliefs makes sense to us. BUT within this large framework of Islam, there are other concepts as well...all these Muslim sects are just different concepts that have been ADDED to the original Islamic concept--and their followers are those who now firmly BELIEVE in these novel concepts.
Who's to say someone in the future will come up with another concept within this huge framework, and begin yet another sect of Islam?
IF ideas did not evolve, then there would be no sects....why have them? EVERY Muslim, EVERY Christian would just follow the ORIGINAL (whatever the original form was)ideas!
Sure, we Muslims BELIEVE that RasulAllah SAW was the last Prophet of Allah, but just ponder this for a moment....the Jews thought of Musa Nabi the same way, the Christians believed in Isa Nabi the same way.....and on and on....
We follow Islam because its concepts and beliefs makes sense to us. BUT within this large framework of Islam, there are other concepts as well...all these Muslim sects are just different concepts that have been ADDED to the original Islamic concept--and their followers are those who now firmly BELIEVE in these novel concepts.
Who's to say someone in the future will come up with another concept within this huge framework, and begin yet another sect of Islam?
IF ideas did not evolve, then there would be no sects....why have them? EVERY Muslim, EVERY Christian would just follow the ORIGINAL (whatever the original form was)ideas!
Re: Moharram
Al-Muizz,
Unfortunately, the jews and the christians haven't evolved into muslims.
Humsafar,
So there are six social issues mentioned.
1 - Accountability
2 - Jamaat Democracy
3 - End of baraat
4 - End Raza and Misaq
5 - Limit the role of clergy
6 - Respect and dignity.
correct?
Unfortunately, the jews and the christians haven't evolved into muslims.
Humsafar,
So there are six social issues mentioned.
1 - Accountability
2 - Jamaat Democracy
3 - End of baraat
4 - End Raza and Misaq
5 - Limit the role of clergy
6 - Respect and dignity.
correct?
Re: Moharram
Humsafar,
Besides, according to you, porus and a couple others, the only logical evolution from religion, is to the lack thereof, and yet you want a clergy with a limited role. Nice way to evolve.
In fact you should think about evolving the way I have evolved, from believing in nothing to believing in the Dai and the hidden Imam to being a wahabi. Now that is some evolution.
And everytime you have been answered appropriately.(pls do not draw me into a debate to elaborate this. I've written on it repeatedly in previous posts.)
Besides, according to you, porus and a couple others, the only logical evolution from religion, is to the lack thereof, and yet you want a clergy with a limited role. Nice way to evolve.
In fact you should think about evolving the way I have evolved, from believing in nothing to believing in the Dai and the hidden Imam to being a wahabi. Now that is some evolution.