One more thing comes to mind looking at the 6 social reforms mentioned above. It may be a coincidence but in the sect I am a part of now, all six have been implemented.
There is complete accountability and you account for your own charities. No one forces you to pay anything to anybody.
There is complete jamaat democracy in every local mosque, schools and jamakhaanas. Completely decentralized.
No baraat.
No Raza and Misaq.
Very limited clergy role.
Respect and Dignity for everyone.
Can you guess which sect it is?
Moharram
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Can you guess which sect it is?
All sects beside the present kothar set up !!!
All sects beside the present kothar set up !!!
Re: Moharram
From our experience, it is our local Shia Ithnaasheri Association (North American city) who meet all the above virtuous charactestics. We had the same pleasant experience when we visited another North American country city.
Just the minimal annual very reasonable dues per family; but no compulsion for those who only visit their Imamvada occasionally.
Just the minimal annual very reasonable dues per family; but no compulsion for those who only visit their Imamvada occasionally.
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hussainidealist
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Is there is a concept which explains of why we were born as a bohra?
is there any kind of past life or reincarnation which influences our present state explained by batin or haqiqa sabaks.i want to know what
it mean that there are 7 world cycles or prophetic
cycles,are we born in every of these cycles
through reincarnation or this is our only first
and last birth.
is there any kind of past life or reincarnation which influences our present state explained by batin or haqiqa sabaks.i want to know what
it mean that there are 7 world cycles or prophetic
cycles,are we born in every of these cycles
through reincarnation or this is our only first
and last birth.
Re: Moharram
It doesn't matter whether other sects have these issues or not. The fact is that Borhas have it, and the point is to bring about the reforms. Of course, the easiest thing is to join another sect and wash your hands of it, but there are some of us who would rather stay put and try to change things.
anamji, here's an anology that you will easily understand: You, like many others, have issues with U.S.'s foreign policy (especially in the Middle East). So what are the options before you: 1) as a tax paying resident/citizen you do your best to force Washington to change its policies or 2) leave the U.S. and go live in a country which doesn't have such issues, e.g. Denmark or 3) do nothing.
Idealist,
From the cold rational/scientific point of view your birth is a pure accident, the result of some insane one in a billion chance of the right sperm meeting the right egg.
From the fuzzy mythical persperctive your birth as a bhora is either a blessing or a curse depending on one's point of view.
From the perspective of the animate Naure the birth of any human being is bad news.
anamji, here's an anology that you will easily understand: You, like many others, have issues with U.S.'s foreign policy (especially in the Middle East). So what are the options before you: 1) as a tax paying resident/citizen you do your best to force Washington to change its policies or 2) leave the U.S. and go live in a country which doesn't have such issues, e.g. Denmark or 3) do nothing.
Idealist,
From the cold rational/scientific point of view your birth is a pure accident, the result of some insane one in a billion chance of the right sperm meeting the right egg.
From the fuzzy mythical persperctive your birth as a bhora is either a blessing or a curse depending on one's point of view.
From the perspective of the animate Naure the birth of any human being is bad news.
Re: Moharram
Humsafar,
Believe me my brother, if Denmark had open borders, both of us would've been living over there. Well.....may be just me. The real Islam has open borders, but why am I telling this to you? Does it matter that it does, to you?
Believe me my brother, if Denmark had open borders, both of us would've been living over there. Well.....may be just me. The real Islam has open borders, but why am I telling this to you? Does it matter that it does, to you?
Re: Moharram
idealist,
Imagine believing in science which tells you that everything and everyone is an accident. You'd seem kind of stupid wouldn't you?
Besides do not believe in crap about 7 lives and cycles, these are all hindu beliefs picked up by disingenuous bohras trying to fool others. You've got one shot, make the most of it.
Imagine believing in science which tells you that everything and everyone is an accident. You'd seem kind of stupid wouldn't you?
Besides do not believe in crap about 7 lives and cycles, these are all hindu beliefs picked up by disingenuous bohras trying to fool others. You've got one shot, make the most of it.
Re: Moharram
idealist,
I am a strong believer in reincarnation but where did you get this figure of 'seven'? There are indeterminate births till you are free from your 'karmas' and attain 'moksha'. The number of times your soul is alloted a physical body in this planet could be several thousand or just a couple, depending on your spiritual disposition (karmas).
Call me an escapist but the most blissful state a soul can attain is when it is free from the compulsion of having to wear a bag of flesh and bones - ie the body.
PS: I am already running for cover after expressing the 'unscientific' and out and out 'hindu' views....
I am a strong believer in reincarnation but where did you get this figure of 'seven'? There are indeterminate births till you are free from your 'karmas' and attain 'moksha'. The number of times your soul is alloted a physical body in this planet could be several thousand or just a couple, depending on your spiritual disposition (karmas).
Call me an escapist but the most blissful state a soul can attain is when it is free from the compulsion of having to wear a bag of flesh and bones - ie the body.
PS: I am already running for cover after expressing the 'unscientific' and out and out 'hindu' views....
Re: Moharram
anajmi,
I chose Denmark advisedly. What if it publishes the offending cartoons of the Prophet? Run to the next open border?
As to your advice to "idealist", consider this scenario:
Hindu "idealist": What is the idea about Prophet Mohammed ascending to the 7th heaven, or Muslims trying to attain martyrdom in order to enjoy houris in heaven?
Hindu "anajmi": these are all Arab beliefs picked up by disingenuous Muslims trying to fool their own people.
I chose Denmark advisedly. What if it publishes the offending cartoons of the Prophet? Run to the next open border?
As to your advice to "idealist", consider this scenario:
Hindu "idealist": What is the idea about Prophet Mohammed ascending to the 7th heaven, or Muslims trying to attain martyrdom in order to enjoy houris in heaven?
Hindu "anajmi": these are all Arab beliefs picked up by disingenuous Muslims trying to fool their own people.
Re: Moharram
Humsafar,
Instead of becoming a reformist why don't you become a kothari and try to fix kothar from the inside?
Remember there was a time the prophet had to leave Mecca and go to Medina (of course that was after he went to the 7th heaven). But eventually he was able to capture mecca. The only difference being that he wasn't trying to pretend to be something he was not. You are!!
Besides muslims aren't trying to attain martyrdom to enjoy houris. That is American propaganda and you, like average american morons, seem to be falling for it. Muslims are fighting so that their families can live in peace.
Instead of becoming a reformist why don't you become a kothari and try to fix kothar from the inside?
Remember there was a time the prophet had to leave Mecca and go to Medina (of course that was after he went to the 7th heaven). But eventually he was able to capture mecca. The only difference being that he wasn't trying to pretend to be something he was not. You are!!
Besides muslims aren't trying to attain martyrdom to enjoy houris. That is American propaganda and you, like average american morons, seem to be falling for it. Muslims are fighting so that their families can live in peace.
Re: Moharram
tahir,
May be if we are all cockroaches in the next birth, we won't have to worry about the kothar, or even a nuclear holocaust.
May be if we are all cockroaches in the next birth, we won't have to worry about the kothar, or even a nuclear holocaust.
Re: Moharram
But what will you do for Baygon spray ? Baygon won't understand your language, Bush does. You can atleast send a letter to him...
Re: Moharram
I don't think Bush is any smarter than Baygon spray.
So the moral of the story is that no matter what you are born as, since you are bound to get screwed, I'd rather it just happened once, than several thousand times.
So the moral of the story is that no matter what you are born as, since you are bound to get screwed, I'd rather it just happened once, than several thousand times.
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Dear Rahi/Humsafar
I think it is clear to both of you, why I got out of the Bohri community.
Rahi, if you say that Progressives can pray in the Holy Harrams with the congregation and pray in Sunni mosques than I am sorry to say that you are making a "deviation" from the accepted Bohri beleifs.
Anyway, I do not have anything more to write on this. I don't have the will or desire to stay in the community and fight. If educated people want to stay in the communty and get ripped off by the Kothar, I really can't do much about it.
Regards
I think it is clear to both of you, why I got out of the Bohri community.
Rahi, if you say that Progressives can pray in the Holy Harrams with the congregation and pray in Sunni mosques than I am sorry to say that you are making a "deviation" from the accepted Bohri beleifs.
Anyway, I do not have anything more to write on this. I don't have the will or desire to stay in the community and fight. If educated people want to stay in the communty and get ripped off by the Kothar, I really can't do much about it.
Regards
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kabeer19922001
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Moharram
Humsafar
You wrote in your previous post
"You have more ethnic, cultural claims over them than you have over say, the Arab ritual of circumambulating the Kaba or slaughtering a goat."
Since when have "tawaf' and "qurbani" become the exclusive domain of Arabs. All muslims have the right over these acts as they are the basics tenents of Islam. ( I know that you consider these to be pagan rituals but all Dawoodi Bohra's practice it and I suppose the Progressive also do so as there are no religious differences between the two)!!!!
Next you will say Arabs have the exclusive right over prayers, roza etc as all these Islamic rituals, as you call them, are basically Arabic in origin.
So going by your logic I should hold on to my Hindu customs and forget the Islamic traditions as I am not bilogically or genetically inclined towards them. ( Superb reasoning !!!)
Before you reply,please let know the importance of Quran in your life. I seem to recollect reading in some other thread that you believe that the principles contained in the book were for a certain place and werre appropriate to the circumstances at those times therby implying that it has no relevance in modern times.
If you still hold this view, then this discussion can be put to an end here.
Regards
You wrote in your previous post
"You have more ethnic, cultural claims over them than you have over say, the Arab ritual of circumambulating the Kaba or slaughtering a goat."
Since when have "tawaf' and "qurbani" become the exclusive domain of Arabs. All muslims have the right over these acts as they are the basics tenents of Islam. ( I know that you consider these to be pagan rituals but all Dawoodi Bohra's practice it and I suppose the Progressive also do so as there are no religious differences between the two)!!!!
Next you will say Arabs have the exclusive right over prayers, roza etc as all these Islamic rituals, as you call them, are basically Arabic in origin.
So going by your logic I should hold on to my Hindu customs and forget the Islamic traditions as I am not bilogically or genetically inclined towards them. ( Superb reasoning !!!)
Before you reply,please let know the importance of Quran in your life. I seem to recollect reading in some other thread that you believe that the principles contained in the book were for a certain place and werre appropriate to the circumstances at those times therby implying that it has no relevance in modern times.
If you still hold this view, then this discussion can be put to an end here.
Regards
Re: Moharram
kabeer,
Let me give you a couple of analogies regarding humsafar's logic.
A couple of friends go to a restaurant. They eat and they fall sick because of it. They go to the same restaurant again the next day. Bad habits die hard. They fall sick again. One of the friends decides to go to a better restaurant the next day. The other decides to go into the kitchen and fix the problem and still insists on not changing the cook. Who knows why. But which of the two friends is the smarter one?
A hindu decides to convert to Islam because he finds out that Islam is the true religion. Humsafar would ask him to stay a hindu and fix the problems with hinduism from inside.
I wouldn't care about it too much. Do what you think is right, not what somebody else thinks you should do. And besides, to a very large extent what is the right thing to do has already been decided by a higher power.
Let me give you a couple of analogies regarding humsafar's logic.
A couple of friends go to a restaurant. They eat and they fall sick because of it. They go to the same restaurant again the next day. Bad habits die hard. They fall sick again. One of the friends decides to go to a better restaurant the next day. The other decides to go into the kitchen and fix the problem and still insists on not changing the cook. Who knows why. But which of the two friends is the smarter one?
A hindu decides to convert to Islam because he finds out that Islam is the true religion. Humsafar would ask him to stay a hindu and fix the problems with hinduism from inside.
I wouldn't care about it too much. Do what you think is right, not what somebody else thinks you should do. And besides, to a very large extent what is the right thing to do has already been decided by a higher power.
Re: Moharram
Kabeer,
I'm not sure whether you really understand what I write. I never said that Arabs have "exclusive rights" over these rituals. What I'm saying is that these are part of their native culture and they (the Arabs) have a more natural affinity to and claim over them than say a converted Indian, Chinese or whoever. For a south Asian like you, aarti would be a more "natural" ritual than say the tawaaf. But if you disown aarti (and its adaptations) with contempt and claim the tawaf to be your true ritual, then you speak as a colonised person. It's as odd as an Indian claiming the Queen of England and fish 'n' chips as his natural herigate.
Also, you must know that tawaf, animal sacrifice and a host of other rituals are pre-islamic Arab traditions which were incorporated into Islam and passed on to its followers as essentially "islamic".
So going by your logic I should hold on to my Hindu customs and forget the Islamic traditions as I am not bilogically or genetically inclined towards them. ( Superb reasoning !!!)
What I was saying is that people and their cultures cannot be separated - they are bound together intimately by their the land, the ecology, history, local traditions, songs and stories. The "biological and genetic" bit that you talk about is the figment of your imagination.
As for my views on the Quran, you're misread me again. The principles - of justice, compassion, fairness etc. - laid down in the Quran are universal and eternal values. They do not change, but their interpretation and application must with changing times.
I'm not sure whether you really understand what I write. I never said that Arabs have "exclusive rights" over these rituals. What I'm saying is that these are part of their native culture and they (the Arabs) have a more natural affinity to and claim over them than say a converted Indian, Chinese or whoever. For a south Asian like you, aarti would be a more "natural" ritual than say the tawaaf. But if you disown aarti (and its adaptations) with contempt and claim the tawaf to be your true ritual, then you speak as a colonised person. It's as odd as an Indian claiming the Queen of England and fish 'n' chips as his natural herigate.
Also, you must know that tawaf, animal sacrifice and a host of other rituals are pre-islamic Arab traditions which were incorporated into Islam and passed on to its followers as essentially "islamic".
So going by your logic I should hold on to my Hindu customs and forget the Islamic traditions as I am not bilogically or genetically inclined towards them. ( Superb reasoning !!!)
What I was saying is that people and their cultures cannot be separated - they are bound together intimately by their the land, the ecology, history, local traditions, songs and stories. The "biological and genetic" bit that you talk about is the figment of your imagination.
As for my views on the Quran, you're misread me again. The principles - of justice, compassion, fairness etc. - laid down in the Quran are universal and eternal values. They do not change, but their interpretation and application must with changing times.
Re: Moharram
anajmi,
You make too many assumptions. One of the persistent ones is:
A hindu decides to convert to Islam because he finds out that Islam is the true religion.
There is no such thing as "true religion". I've said it repeatedly - and porus has said it more often and more eloquently - that each person find his/her own religion to be true and they are all correct. And, I would add, wrong at the same time.
You make too many assumptions. One of the persistent ones is:
A hindu decides to convert to Islam because he finds out that Islam is the true religion.
There is no such thing as "true religion". I've said it repeatedly - and porus has said it more often and more eloquently - that each person find his/her own religion to be true and they are all correct. And, I would add, wrong at the same time.
Re: Moharram
Humsafar,
I'm sure you've said it repeatedly and will probably be saying the same thing repeatedly. And now since you've said it repeatedly am I supposed to believe it?
And porus isn't anywhere near as eloquent as the quran or those that recite it. And if they can all be wrong, I am sure porus can be wrong.
I'm sure you've said it repeatedly and will probably be saying the same thing repeatedly. And now since you've said it repeatedly am I supposed to believe it?
And porus isn't anywhere near as eloquent as the quran or those that recite it. And if they can all be wrong, I am sure porus can be wrong.
Re: Moharram
Besides, you missed the entire point of that particular post of mine.