With the utter rubbish that the progressives sometimes spew out of their mouths, you'd wish they smarten up and perhaps say something like:
(1) We could be wrong. I mean the only the only info we ever get about bohras is from this progressive website.
(2) I'm a hypocrite. I tell the orthodox bohras that they follow whatever Syedna (TUS) says but in fact I'm following everything ali asgher engineer is saying.
(3) It's odd that raza should have been emphasised so much during Rasulullah's time but when we find it inconvenient, we just say it is dictatorship, yet we claim that we follow Islam.
(4) I must be a moron. If I don't like going to a Majlis-e-dawat, then why don't I stop going, since I claim to be a reformist?
(5) I claim to be a Dawoodi Bohra. But I insult Aqa Maula (TUS) every chance I get. But he's an integral part of the Dawoodi Bohra Faith. So in the end, I insult my own faith.
(6) Hmmm, I wonder if there's corruption in my own progressive jamaats?
(7) Perhpas Bayaan and Vaaz do have Value of Fatemi Ilm after all! The only reason the progressives make stupid stories about such majalis being arranged only to get money is to keep me away from the truth and keep me engrossed in reformist hogwash.
(8) I wonder why the progressives always insult the Jamea-tus-Saifiyah. After all, its a first class institution with the most relevant subjects taught and many international Institutions respect and acknowledge the Jamea.
Well, I hope and pray the above lines may wake the progressives up. After all, I am just asking you to free your minds from progressive hogwash, no? Isn't that what progressives are all about, being able to think freely?
May Allah prolong the life of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb (TUS), the 52nd Dai-ul-Mutlaq and the true vicigerant and representative of the Fatemi Imam In seclusion.
Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
-
MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
ANhar; You did come out with some hog wash again!You must be dreaming ! HA! HA!HA!
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
And yet again.. the dog barks..Originally posted by MOHD HUSSAIN:
ANhar; You did come out with some hog wash again!You must be dreaming ! HA! HA!HA!
and yeah anhar was not takling about you.. you are not even bohra.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Yadda..yaddda..yaddaOriginally posted by anhar:
With the utter rubbish that the progressives sometimes spew out of their mouths, you'd wish they smarten up and perhaps say something like:
We dont live on "could be right" or "Could be wrong" like Bohraji slaves. Everything for us is black and white.Originally posted by anhar:
[QB](1) We could be wrong. I mean the only the only info we ever get about bohras is from this progressive website..
Does Asghar Ali Engineer forces us to kiss his feet and do poja?? Do he give raza and safai chitti. Do he sent his mafia too harass anyone who refuse his edict?Originally posted by anhar:
(2) I'm a hypocrite. I tell the orthodox bohras that they follow whatever Syedna (TUS) says but in fact I'm following everything ali asgher engineer is saying..
Unsubstantiated claimOriginally posted by anhar:
(3) It's odd that raza should have been emphasised so much during Rasulullah's time but when we find it inconvenient, we just say it is dictatorship, yet we claim that we follow Islam..
I don’t expect a fool like you to understand how ruthlessly the Dawat is organized.Originally posted by anhar:
(4) I must be a moron. If I don't like going to a Majlis-e-dawat, then why don't I stop going, since I claim to be a reformist?.
How can a tyrant and a thug be an integral path of any faith? Are you a moron not to get this?Originally posted by anhar:
(5) I claim to be a Dawoodi Bohra. But I insult Aqa Maula (TUS) every chance I get. But he's an integral part of the Dawoodi Bohra Faith. So in the end, I insult my own faith..
If there is, we can kick his ass. Pity you cant say the same..can you?Originally posted by anhar:
(6) Hmmm, I wonder if there's corruption in my own progressive jamaats?.
Well my friend, truth doesn’t come in the shape of Raza, Safai chitti , extortion and blind faithOriginally posted by anhar:
(7) Perhpas Bayaan and Vaaz do have Value of Fatemi Ilm after all! The only reason the progressives make stupid stories about such majalis being arranged only to get money is to keep me away from the truth and keep me engrossed in reformist hogwash..
What is the value of Jamia if all it do is brainwashing children in the name of religion and it’s teachers are bastard who rape their female student as young as 13Originally posted by anhar:
(8) I wonder why the progressives always insult the Jamea-tus-Saifiyah. After all, its a first class institution with the most relevant subjects taught and many international Institutions respect and acknowledge the Jamea..
Thanks..but no thanks. We have always been wide-awake and alert.Originally posted by anhar:
Well, I hope and pray the above lines may wake the progressives up. After all, I am just asking you to free your minds from progressive hogwash, no? Isn't that what progressives are all about, being able to think freely?.
Originally posted by anhar:
May Allah prolong the life of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb (TUS), the 52nd Dai-ul-Mutlaq and the true vicigerant and representative of the Fatemi Imam In seclusion.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Jinx, is unsubstantiated claim with low blows all you can come up with? Pathetic. I guess you guys do have smaller mental capacities after all. Try to substantiate your claims with hard proof. Then perhaps, you might look more mature.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
With the utter rubbish that the progressives sometimes spew out of their mouths, you'd wish they smarten up and perhaps say something like:
(1) We could be wrong. I mean the only the only info we ever get about Bohras is from this progressive website.
Dear Anhar, Please correct your self. Most of we progressives are better informed as we do not depend on vaiz of ignorant Amils for our knowledge and get it from reading the authentic books of our religion. Rather than wasting our time in moneymaking Mujlises but attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world.
(2) I'm a hypocrite. I tell the orthodox Bohras that they follow whatever Sayedna (TUS) says but in fact I'm following everything ali asgher engineer is saying.
Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar, Shaikh Qurban Husain Mandasorewala, who was in possession of many authentic Tawil and other subject books with him. Being a son of an Amil he is an eyewitness of high-level corruption in Kothar. He has also burnt many candles in learning the true Islam and glorious Ismaili tradition. He has written more than 30 books on Islam & Muslims and they are accepted and praised in many Muslim countries.
But with all that to Dr. Asghar Ali’s credit we do not follow every that he says. Dr. Asghar Ali has never insisted on that either. In fact he bases all his arguments on writing and teachings of Quran. He says what Quran says. Sayedna Saheh claims that the Quran in its book form is a dead book he (Sayedna) is Quran-e-Natiq i.e. Speaking Quran. A claim that even the Holy Prophet had never made.
(3) It's odd that raza should have been emphasised so much during Rasulullah's time but when we find it inconvenient, we just say it is dictatorship, yet we claim that we follow Islam.
There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time. These new innovations by present they Dai’s administration to make money.
I must be moron. Idon't like going to a Majlis-e-dawat, then why don't I stop going, since I claim to be a reformist?
(5) I claim to be a Dawoodi Bohra. But I insult Aqa Maula (TUS) every chance I get. But he's an integral part of the Dawoodi Bohra Faith. So in the end, I insult my own faith.
Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration is not to insult him but to ask for re-establishing the values of Islam and Dawat like humanity, compassion, love, and charity and caution the arrogant Shahzadas and Amil from doing things against our own traditions.
6) I wonder if thre's corruption in my own progressive jamaats?
Reformists Jamats are registered as Dawoodi Bohra Jamaat everwhere. Kothar never want to give any credit to the community therefore you will find there Jamaats referred as Anjumans ( Anjumane-Shiate-Ali, Anjumane-Najmi etc. etc.) Again Reformist’s Jamats are run democratically, elections are held, office-bearers are elected for a given period only, and their accounts are properly and regularly audited, discussed in meetings and are made public. There is no imposition of taxes, no forcible collection by refusing marriages or burials.
(7) Perhpas Bayaan and Vaaz do have Value of Fatemi Ilm after all! The only reason the progressives make stupid stories about such majalis being arranged only to get money is to keep me away from the truth and keep me engrossed in reformist hogwash.
(8) I wonder why the progressives always insult the Jamea-tus-Saifiyah. After all, its a first class institution with the most relevant subjects taught and many international Institutions respect and acknowledge the Jamea.
Just read the horror stories of Jamea-tus-Saifiyah (Karachi)’s Shaikh’s sex-scandals, murder, running of brothels of Bohra women in Karachi and decide yourself.
(1) We could be wrong. I mean the only the only info we ever get about Bohras is from this progressive website.
Dear Anhar, Please correct your self. Most of we progressives are better informed as we do not depend on vaiz of ignorant Amils for our knowledge and get it from reading the authentic books of our religion. Rather than wasting our time in moneymaking Mujlises but attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world.
(2) I'm a hypocrite. I tell the orthodox Bohras that they follow whatever Sayedna (TUS) says but in fact I'm following everything ali asgher engineer is saying.
Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar, Shaikh Qurban Husain Mandasorewala, who was in possession of many authentic Tawil and other subject books with him. Being a son of an Amil he is an eyewitness of high-level corruption in Kothar. He has also burnt many candles in learning the true Islam and glorious Ismaili tradition. He has written more than 30 books on Islam & Muslims and they are accepted and praised in many Muslim countries.
But with all that to Dr. Asghar Ali’s credit we do not follow every that he says. Dr. Asghar Ali has never insisted on that either. In fact he bases all his arguments on writing and teachings of Quran. He says what Quran says. Sayedna Saheh claims that the Quran in its book form is a dead book he (Sayedna) is Quran-e-Natiq i.e. Speaking Quran. A claim that even the Holy Prophet had never made.
(3) It's odd that raza should have been emphasised so much during Rasulullah's time but when we find it inconvenient, we just say it is dictatorship, yet we claim that we follow Islam.
There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time. These new innovations by present they Dai’s administration to make money.
I must be moron. Idon't like going to a Majlis-e-dawat, then why don't I stop going, since I claim to be a reformist?
(5) I claim to be a Dawoodi Bohra. But I insult Aqa Maula (TUS) every chance I get. But he's an integral part of the Dawoodi Bohra Faith. So in the end, I insult my own faith.
Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration is not to insult him but to ask for re-establishing the values of Islam and Dawat like humanity, compassion, love, and charity and caution the arrogant Shahzadas and Amil from doing things against our own traditions.
6) I wonder if thre's corruption in my own progressive jamaats?
Reformists Jamats are registered as Dawoodi Bohra Jamaat everwhere. Kothar never want to give any credit to the community therefore you will find there Jamaats referred as Anjumans ( Anjumane-Shiate-Ali, Anjumane-Najmi etc. etc.) Again Reformist’s Jamats are run democratically, elections are held, office-bearers are elected for a given period only, and their accounts are properly and regularly audited, discussed in meetings and are made public. There is no imposition of taxes, no forcible collection by refusing marriages or burials.
(7) Perhpas Bayaan and Vaaz do have Value of Fatemi Ilm after all! The only reason the progressives make stupid stories about such majalis being arranged only to get money is to keep me away from the truth and keep me engrossed in reformist hogwash.
(8) I wonder why the progressives always insult the Jamea-tus-Saifiyah. After all, its a first class institution with the most relevant subjects taught and many international Institutions respect and acknowledge the Jamea.
Just read the horror stories of Jamea-tus-Saifiyah (Karachi)’s Shaikh’s sex-scandals, murder, running of brothels of Bohra women in Karachi and decide yourself.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Dear S. Insaf,
Authetic books that Progressives refer to...that's is the most arrogant LIE I have read yet!
"attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world"
---think about this statement a bit more...who are you learning YOUR so called superior knowledge from...people who consider your Fatimi belief UNTRUE.
"Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar"
--and if you read his writings, you'd know he learned or supports very little of what his father learned.
"There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time"
---this is utterly FALSE! I have quoted authetic texts of our Prophet and Imams praticing this traditions on this very site. People asked raza (permission) of the Prophet to lead prayers, Mithaq is in the Quran, Wajibat is a term used for zakat and khums, daris means lessons, najwa is from the Quran and was practiced by the Imams.
"Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration.."
--and what qualifies you and your fellow reformists the abilities to say something is "islamic" or not??? Is it the sunni lecturers you go an listen to...or the non-authetic texts you refer to....or your un-learned, self promoted scholars that advice you?
Authetic books that Progressives refer to...that's is the most arrogant LIE I have read yet!
"attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world"
---think about this statement a bit more...who are you learning YOUR so called superior knowledge from...people who consider your Fatimi belief UNTRUE.
"Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar"
--and if you read his writings, you'd know he learned or supports very little of what his father learned.
"There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time"
---this is utterly FALSE! I have quoted authetic texts of our Prophet and Imams praticing this traditions on this very site. People asked raza (permission) of the Prophet to lead prayers, Mithaq is in the Quran, Wajibat is a term used for zakat and khums, daris means lessons, najwa is from the Quran and was practiced by the Imams.
"Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration.."
--and what qualifies you and your fellow reformists the abilities to say something is "islamic" or not??? Is it the sunni lecturers you go an listen to...or the non-authetic texts you refer to....or your un-learned, self promoted scholars that advice you?
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
S. Insaf Says "He says what Quran says. Sayedna Saheh claims that the Quran in its book form is a dead book he (Sayedna) is Quran-e-Natiq i.e. Speaking Quran. A claim that even the Holy Prophet had never made."
Ameer-ul-Mumineen, Maulana Ali (AS), the wasi of Rasululah (SAW) once took a copy of the Holy Quraan in his hands and said, "Speak! Speak! Speak!". His followers looked at him, wondering what Maulana Ali (AS) was doing. Maulana Ali (AS) then said, "This Quran cannot speak. I am the Quran-e-Natiq and this is the Quraan-e-Samit."
This only goes to show what little your seminars and conferences teach you. Apparently, I have learnt a lot more than you by just listening to Waaz and Bayaan and going to sabaq. Mr Insaf, maybe if you shake off your prejudice against the orhtodox bohras, you might learn something useful by attending Majli-e-Dawat.
Ameer-ul-Mumineen, Maulana Ali (AS), the wasi of Rasululah (SAW) once took a copy of the Holy Quraan in his hands and said, "Speak! Speak! Speak!". His followers looked at him, wondering what Maulana Ali (AS) was doing. Maulana Ali (AS) then said, "This Quran cannot speak. I am the Quran-e-Natiq and this is the Quraan-e-Samit."
This only goes to show what little your seminars and conferences teach you. Apparently, I have learnt a lot more than you by just listening to Waaz and Bayaan and going to sabaq. Mr Insaf, maybe if you shake off your prejudice against the orhtodox bohras, you might learn something useful by attending Majli-e-Dawat.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Authentic books that Progressives refer to...that's is the most arrogant LIE I have read yet!
Dear Anhar, while entering in debate with you I have considered you a simple and truth-searching soul. So please avoid using harsh words like ‘arrogant LIE’ especially when you do not know my source of knowledge. The acquiring knowledge in most cases is out of compulsion. In the Muslim world Shias are in minority. So to defend themselves they have to study the religion deeply and keep themselves prepared against the majority attacks. Similarly the Ismailis were in minority in Shia community. So they studied Quran and other philosophical work of their time and compiled 52 resalas of Ikhwaus-Safa and made many such valuable literary contributions.
The Reformist or progressive Bohras movement came in forefront in the beginning of 20th century for two reasons: 1) because the 51st Bohra Dai became greedy of wealth and fame and hence in order to have absolute control over the community’s properties and finances he resorted to coercion to crush the opposition. 2) With the British Raj in India and modern education and judiciary people (including Bohra elites) became more aware of their civil rights. Numbers of legal suits filed against our 51st Dai are proof of this awareness.
Now to stand against two powerful forces, black money and religious fanatism which Sayedna had at his command and to justify their cases the Bohra opponents had to undertake study of their religion, their past history and powers and authorities of their Dais. On the contrary the orthodox Bohras remained subject of Kothar’s provocation and confined to Kothar’s teachings.
In my survey of Bohras of Gujarat in 1996 I found just two houses where the members of the house had read Maula Ali’s Nahjul Balagha. All other houses were filled with Kothar’s so called literature of hi fi praises and colored photographs of 51st and 52nd Dais.
"attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world"
---think about this statement a bit more...who are you learning YOUR so called superior knowledge from...people who consider your Fatimi belief UNTRUE.
In modern Times the non-Bohra scholars like W. Ivanow, F. Wusternfeld, O’Leary, P.J. Vatikoiti, Prof. R.A. Nicholson and Prof. A.A.A. Faizee and have done pioneering work and have made known to the outside world the significance and importance of Ismaili literatures. Their books are no doubt a result of painstaking research and interest the specialists have taken.
Not from any of our Dais but from these non-Bohra researchers and scholars we came to know how that our Fatimi Imams were rich in science, philosophy and literature apart from religious knowledge and in their time Fatimite Library of Cairo contained 1000,0000 volumes of astronomy, medicine, philosophy, history, jurisprudence and politics elegantly transcribed and bound.
Taking advantage of religious freedom during British Raj on lines of our Fatimi Imams, our 43rd Dai Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin Saheb (from 1785-1819 A.D.) started a college in Surat in India. The students were taught 52 tracts of Ikhwanus-Safa, Rahatul Aql, Taawilud-Da’em, Majlise-Moaiyedi etc to keep the glorious tradition of Fatimi Dawat.
But unfortunately 51st Dai in order to amass wealth disregarded the literary and ecclesiastical qualifications required for higher degree of priesthood (Dai, Mazoon, Mukasir, Shaikhs). This in turn necessitated the gradual suppression of the open sectarian education in Surat and degeneration of the institution started. By 60s and 70s like Asghar Ali Engineer’s Father, Shaikh Qurban Husain there were many Ulemas who used to regret (off course in private) the repressive policies of late Sayedna and Kothar was aware of this. The ultimate blow came when Mulla Abbas Aurangabadi was burnt alive in brought day light in Karachi and four Shaikhs of Surat’s Jamiya, Shaikh Hasan Ali, Shaikh Sajjad Husain, Shaikh Ahmed Ali and Shaikh Ali Huasain were beaten up by a crowd instigated by Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb’s brother, Yusuf Najmuddin.
"Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar"
--and if you read his writings, you'd know he learned or supports very little of what his father learned.
Please do not make general comments and cite examples from his writings.
"There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time"
---this is utterly FALSE! I have quoted authentic texts of our Prophet and Imams practicing this traditions on this very site. People asked raza (permission) of the Prophet to lead prayers, Mithaq is in the Quran, Wajibat is a term used for zakat and khums, daris means lessons, najwa is from the Quran and was practiced by the Imams.
If was so, the Holy prophet is regarded by all Muslims why and there is no concept of raza in any other Muslim sect? There are many incidents where the Holy prophet came to know of certain marriage being going on in Muslim houses and he sent his blessings to the couple afterwards. Dead bodies of Muslims were buried and the Holy Prophet came to know of their death much letter. You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food.
"Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration.."
--and what qualifies you and your fellow reformists the abilities to say something is "islamic" or not??? Is it the sunni lecturers you go an listen to...or the non-authetic texts you refer to....or your un-learned, self promoted scholars that advice you?
The Holy Prophet never got offended or humiliated by the Jew woman who used through dust on him and Maula Ali offered ‘sharbat’ to Ibne-Muljim, his murderer, and Sayedna Burhanuddin can not even tolerate Asghar Ali Engineer traveling with him in the same plane and organizes a murderous attack on him at the airport. What qualification do you need to judge such anti-Islamic and in-human behavior of a leader who fabricates stories, instigates his fanatics and yet claims to be religious and spiritual leader and Maula Ali’s Dai?
Dear Anhar, while entering in debate with you I have considered you a simple and truth-searching soul. So please avoid using harsh words like ‘arrogant LIE’ especially when you do not know my source of knowledge. The acquiring knowledge in most cases is out of compulsion. In the Muslim world Shias are in minority. So to defend themselves they have to study the religion deeply and keep themselves prepared against the majority attacks. Similarly the Ismailis were in minority in Shia community. So they studied Quran and other philosophical work of their time and compiled 52 resalas of Ikhwaus-Safa and made many such valuable literary contributions.
The Reformist or progressive Bohras movement came in forefront in the beginning of 20th century for two reasons: 1) because the 51st Bohra Dai became greedy of wealth and fame and hence in order to have absolute control over the community’s properties and finances he resorted to coercion to crush the opposition. 2) With the British Raj in India and modern education and judiciary people (including Bohra elites) became more aware of their civil rights. Numbers of legal suits filed against our 51st Dai are proof of this awareness.
Now to stand against two powerful forces, black money and religious fanatism which Sayedna had at his command and to justify their cases the Bohra opponents had to undertake study of their religion, their past history and powers and authorities of their Dais. On the contrary the orthodox Bohras remained subject of Kothar’s provocation and confined to Kothar’s teachings.
In my survey of Bohras of Gujarat in 1996 I found just two houses where the members of the house had read Maula Ali’s Nahjul Balagha. All other houses were filled with Kothar’s so called literature of hi fi praises and colored photographs of 51st and 52nd Dais.
"attend the Seminars and Conferences organized by renowned Muslim organizations where scholars of Islam discuss various issues of Islam in reference to their importance in changing world"
---think about this statement a bit more...who are you learning YOUR so called superior knowledge from...people who consider your Fatimi belief UNTRUE.
In modern Times the non-Bohra scholars like W. Ivanow, F. Wusternfeld, O’Leary, P.J. Vatikoiti, Prof. R.A. Nicholson and Prof. A.A.A. Faizee and have done pioneering work and have made known to the outside world the significance and importance of Ismaili literatures. Their books are no doubt a result of painstaking research and interest the specialists have taken.
Not from any of our Dais but from these non-Bohra researchers and scholars we came to know how that our Fatimi Imams were rich in science, philosophy and literature apart from religious knowledge and in their time Fatimite Library of Cairo contained 1000,0000 volumes of astronomy, medicine, philosophy, history, jurisprudence and politics elegantly transcribed and bound.
Taking advantage of religious freedom during British Raj on lines of our Fatimi Imams, our 43rd Dai Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin Saheb (from 1785-1819 A.D.) started a college in Surat in India. The students were taught 52 tracts of Ikhwanus-Safa, Rahatul Aql, Taawilud-Da’em, Majlise-Moaiyedi etc to keep the glorious tradition of Fatimi Dawat.
But unfortunately 51st Dai in order to amass wealth disregarded the literary and ecclesiastical qualifications required for higher degree of priesthood (Dai, Mazoon, Mukasir, Shaikhs). This in turn necessitated the gradual suppression of the open sectarian education in Surat and degeneration of the institution started. By 60s and 70s like Asghar Ali Engineer’s Father, Shaikh Qurban Husain there were many Ulemas who used to regret (off course in private) the repressive policies of late Sayedna and Kothar was aware of this. The ultimate blow came when Mulla Abbas Aurangabadi was burnt alive in brought day light in Karachi and four Shaikhs of Surat’s Jamiya, Shaikh Hasan Ali, Shaikh Sajjad Husain, Shaikh Ahmed Ali and Shaikh Ali Huasain were beaten up by a crowd instigated by Sayedna Burhanuddin Saheb’s brother, Yusuf Najmuddin.
"Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer is a son of original Shaikh of Kothar"
--and if you read his writings, you'd know he learned or supports very little of what his father learned.
Please do not make general comments and cite examples from his writings.
"There was absolutely no concept of innovations like raza, misaq, mafi, wajebat, darees , Najva, Salam, Ruqa-chiththi, Safai chiththi etc. during Holy Prophet’s time or during Imam’s or earlier Dai’s time"
---this is utterly FALSE! I have quoted authentic texts of our Prophet and Imams practicing this traditions on this very site. People asked raza (permission) of the Prophet to lead prayers, Mithaq is in the Quran, Wajibat is a term used for zakat and khums, daris means lessons, najwa is from the Quran and was practiced by the Imams.
If was so, the Holy prophet is regarded by all Muslims why and there is no concept of raza in any other Muslim sect? There are many incidents where the Holy prophet came to know of certain marriage being going on in Muslim houses and he sent his blessings to the couple afterwards. Dead bodies of Muslims were buried and the Holy Prophet came to know of their death much letter. You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food.
"Questioning anti-Islamic and anti-human activities of Sayedna Saheb or his administration.."
--and what qualifies you and your fellow reformists the abilities to say something is "islamic" or not??? Is it the sunni lecturers you go an listen to...or the non-authetic texts you refer to....or your un-learned, self promoted scholars that advice you?
The Holy Prophet never got offended or humiliated by the Jew woman who used through dust on him and Maula Ali offered ‘sharbat’ to Ibne-Muljim, his murderer, and Sayedna Burhanuddin can not even tolerate Asghar Ali Engineer traveling with him in the same plane and organizes a murderous attack on him at the airport. What qualification do you need to judge such anti-Islamic and in-human behavior of a leader who fabricates stories, instigates his fanatics and yet claims to be religious and spiritual leader and Maula Ali’s Dai?
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
This website has far more relevant information on the Bohra faith than any of the kothari sites such as mumineen.org and malumaat.com. In fact, the latter serve one main purpose - the glorification and deification of Burhanuddin. And this is the one of the two principles upon which kothari Bohraism is based. The other is monetary gain.
The word "mithaq" is mentioned in the Qur'an, but it has no resemblance to what is practised by the Kothar. The mithaq of the Qur'an is a covenant, for example between Allah and the Bani Israel that the latter will not shed blood. See http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 536#000000 for more. The Bohra mithaq, on the other hand, is an un-Islamic ritual enslavement to the Dai and utter disgrace to human dignity, for example:
<blockquote><B>The Dai shall raise among you or degrade among you persons as he likes. He shall gift to and shall deprive persons as he pleases. The Dai shall reward persons and shall punish them in his discretion. The Dai shall smile upon or shall break his wrath on whomsoever he thinks fit. You shall be pleased in that which Dai is pleased....Say yes.</B></blockquote>
Burhanuddin's role today in some ways bears resemblance to Uthman's (3rd khalifa). He appointed his close family and relatives to top positions in the government and made Islam his own family-run affair. While the people complained about the corruption rife in the land, in general they did not point the finger directly at Uthman seeing him as an old man possibly not in total control of the situation. When Ali came to power, he proceeded to remove Uthman's relatives from governorship positions. (Muawiya, a relative of Uthman, was governor of Syria and refused to step down, hence the battle of Siffin).
The word "mithaq" is mentioned in the Qur'an, but it has no resemblance to what is practised by the Kothar. The mithaq of the Qur'an is a covenant, for example between Allah and the Bani Israel that the latter will not shed blood. See http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 536#000000 for more. The Bohra mithaq, on the other hand, is an un-Islamic ritual enslavement to the Dai and utter disgrace to human dignity, for example:
<blockquote><B>The Dai shall raise among you or degrade among you persons as he likes. He shall gift to and shall deprive persons as he pleases. The Dai shall reward persons and shall punish them in his discretion. The Dai shall smile upon or shall break his wrath on whomsoever he thinks fit. You shall be pleased in that which Dai is pleased....Say yes.</B></blockquote>
Burhanuddin's role today in some ways bears resemblance to Uthman's (3rd khalifa). He appointed his close family and relatives to top positions in the government and made Islam his own family-run affair. While the people complained about the corruption rife in the land, in general they did not point the finger directly at Uthman seeing him as an old man possibly not in total control of the situation. When Ali came to power, he proceeded to remove Uthman's relatives from governorship positions. (Muawiya, a relative of Uthman, was governor of Syria and refused to step down, hence the battle of Siffin).
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Mr Insaf, I had not made those comments about the arrogant lie. It was Bhai Qiyam. While I am in support of his comments, I request you to pose your inquiries to him, not me, about what he said. I restate, I do agree with what he says.
Mr Muslim, firstly, your translation, which is the translation used by the progressives, is wrong. Let me inform you that the words "The Dai" have to be replaced by "the Imam and his Dai". This indicates that the Imam is the supreme authority on this earth and it is with his authority that the Dai takes Mithaq or takes any other action. In the absence of the Imam, the dai is the supreme authority.
Also, mithaq had been performed during Rasulullah's (SAW) time. The most prominent incident is at Ghadir-e-khum, where he took mithaq of thousands of people present after his Final Hajj, after Proclaiming that Maulana Ali (SA) is his true successor.
If you dispute the above, the reason you would do so is clear: That you're not a Shia, much less a Dawoodi Bohra; thus my argument no longer remains with you. It is with the progressives to whom the post is addressed in the first place.
Mr Muslim, firstly, your translation, which is the translation used by the progressives, is wrong. Let me inform you that the words "The Dai" have to be replaced by "the Imam and his Dai". This indicates that the Imam is the supreme authority on this earth and it is with his authority that the Dai takes Mithaq or takes any other action. In the absence of the Imam, the dai is the supreme authority.
Also, mithaq had been performed during Rasulullah's (SAW) time. The most prominent incident is at Ghadir-e-khum, where he took mithaq of thousands of people present after his Final Hajj, after Proclaiming that Maulana Ali (SA) is his true successor.
If you dispute the above, the reason you would do so is clear: That you're not a Shia, much less a Dawoodi Bohra; thus my argument no longer remains with you. It is with the progressives to whom the post is addressed in the first place.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Let me inform you that the words "The Dai" have to be replaced by "the Imam and his Dai".
Whoever - it does not change the argument, which is that an oath that that allows a person to be <B>degraded, deprived and punished at another's will</B> goes against the principles of human dignity, justice and respect that Islam stands for.
This indicates that the Imam is the supreme authority on this earth and it is with his authority that the Dai takes Mithaq or takes any other action. In the absence of the Imam, the dai is the supreme authority.
1. The prophet and imams authority is not above Allah's authority, and He did not empower the prophet to degrade or punish as he saw fit (as per Bohra mithaq), but to deal justly according to the laws that He had laid down.
2. The imam, according to the Shia, is infallible. The dai, despite being projected as such, is not, and thefore cannot have the same authority. Al-Fariqi, who was during Imam Hakim's time the Dai-ul-Duat (chief dai), was removed from office and executed.
Also, mithaq had been performed during Rasulullah's (SAW) time.
"Mithaq" simply an Arabic word for oath, a promise, a binding agreement. The Bani Israel made a mithaq with Allah according to the Quran. The prophet made a mithaq with the Jews of Medina. Yazid wanted a a form of mithaq from Imam Husein. The marriage is a kind of mithaq. A prime minister or president takes a form of mithaq when taking office.
I am not wondering whether mithaqs in any form existed. I am more interested, if there exists, in the mithaq the prophet made with his people that was effectively an enslavement charter similar to the Bohra mithaq I quoted.
Whoever - it does not change the argument, which is that an oath that that allows a person to be <B>degraded, deprived and punished at another's will</B> goes against the principles of human dignity, justice and respect that Islam stands for.
This indicates that the Imam is the supreme authority on this earth and it is with his authority that the Dai takes Mithaq or takes any other action. In the absence of the Imam, the dai is the supreme authority.
1. The prophet and imams authority is not above Allah's authority, and He did not empower the prophet to degrade or punish as he saw fit (as per Bohra mithaq), but to deal justly according to the laws that He had laid down.
2. The imam, according to the Shia, is infallible. The dai, despite being projected as such, is not, and thefore cannot have the same authority. Al-Fariqi, who was during Imam Hakim's time the Dai-ul-Duat (chief dai), was removed from office and executed.
Also, mithaq had been performed during Rasulullah's (SAW) time.
"Mithaq" simply an Arabic word for oath, a promise, a binding agreement. The Bani Israel made a mithaq with Allah according to the Quran. The prophet made a mithaq with the Jews of Medina. Yazid wanted a a form of mithaq from Imam Husein. The marriage is a kind of mithaq. A prime minister or president takes a form of mithaq when taking office.
I am not wondering whether mithaqs in any form existed. I am more interested, if there exists, in the mithaq the prophet made with his people that was effectively an enslavement charter similar to the Bohra mithaq I quoted.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
S. Insaf,
I wrote "arrogant LIE" because it is a true statement. It is arrogant to make statements to discredit another's argument...statements that are totally un-supported. And most of the "facts" you stated were untrue (ie LIES). Secondly, the only sources you could have refered to for those same old arguments is the ones always used...the invisible kind.
"In my survey of Bohras of Gujarat in 1996 I found just two houses where the members of the house had read Maula Ali’s Nahjul Balagha. All other houses were filled with Kothar’s so called literature of hi fi praises and colored photographs of 51st and 52nd Dais."
-firstly I am from Gujarat...my wife is from Gujarat...and most shiah...let alone also bohras don't have copies of Najhul Balagha. Most don't have very many books at all! The typical bohra house in Gujarat has 1 or 2 Qurans copies, 1 sayfah, and two or three duas written by either Maulana Ali or Imam Zaynul Abidin. Twelvers will typically have the same except they will have Mafatahul Jinan instead of the sayfah...there both books on ibadat, duas and salat.
The modern scholars you refer to have done translations and analysis...from an Agha Khanni point of reference. You cannot take their analysis at face value. I have read both Ivanow and O'Leary...both their analysis on succession of imamate alone are wrong according to the sources they quote from.
"Not from any of our Dais but from these non-Bohra researchers and scholars we came to know how that our Fatimi Imams..."
-Actually it is from the writings of OUR DAIS that these orientalist wrote their books from!
"Please do not make general comments and cite examples from his writings."
--I have to make a general statement for this...he has written many articles, like the ones on this website, which have little Fatimi source backing them.
"If was so, the Holy prophet is regarded by all Muslims why and there is no concept of raza in any other Muslim sect?"
--Your basing your argument on what muslims today do??? That's suicide. Most of the muslims today follow the method of Islam ingrained by the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs. Remember they don't believe in Imamate either.
"There are many incidents where the Holy prophet came to know of certain marriage being going on in Muslim houses and he sent his blessings to the couple afterwards. Dead bodies of Muslims were buried and the Holy Prophet came to know of their death much letter."
--Who performed the nikah and janaza???? Someone approved to do so by the Prophet or an amil (governer) of the Prophet. Maulana Amil was a Dai and Amil of Rasullah.
"You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food."
--The Quran references Najwa to be given as a gift for a lesson. Imam Hakim and the Dais that lead the majalis in Cairo are recorded as receiving najwa.
You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food.
I wrote "arrogant LIE" because it is a true statement. It is arrogant to make statements to discredit another's argument...statements that are totally un-supported. And most of the "facts" you stated were untrue (ie LIES). Secondly, the only sources you could have refered to for those same old arguments is the ones always used...the invisible kind.
"In my survey of Bohras of Gujarat in 1996 I found just two houses where the members of the house had read Maula Ali’s Nahjul Balagha. All other houses were filled with Kothar’s so called literature of hi fi praises and colored photographs of 51st and 52nd Dais."
-firstly I am from Gujarat...my wife is from Gujarat...and most shiah...let alone also bohras don't have copies of Najhul Balagha. Most don't have very many books at all! The typical bohra house in Gujarat has 1 or 2 Qurans copies, 1 sayfah, and two or three duas written by either Maulana Ali or Imam Zaynul Abidin. Twelvers will typically have the same except they will have Mafatahul Jinan instead of the sayfah...there both books on ibadat, duas and salat.
The modern scholars you refer to have done translations and analysis...from an Agha Khanni point of reference. You cannot take their analysis at face value. I have read both Ivanow and O'Leary...both their analysis on succession of imamate alone are wrong according to the sources they quote from.
"Not from any of our Dais but from these non-Bohra researchers and scholars we came to know how that our Fatimi Imams..."
-Actually it is from the writings of OUR DAIS that these orientalist wrote their books from!
"Please do not make general comments and cite examples from his writings."
--I have to make a general statement for this...he has written many articles, like the ones on this website, which have little Fatimi source backing them.
"If was so, the Holy prophet is regarded by all Muslims why and there is no concept of raza in any other Muslim sect?"
--Your basing your argument on what muslims today do??? That's suicide. Most of the muslims today follow the method of Islam ingrained by the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs. Remember they don't believe in Imamate either.
"There are many incidents where the Holy prophet came to know of certain marriage being going on in Muslim houses and he sent his blessings to the couple afterwards. Dead bodies of Muslims were buried and the Holy Prophet came to know of their death much letter."
--Who performed the nikah and janaza???? Someone approved to do so by the Prophet or an amil (governer) of the Prophet. Maulana Amil was a Dai and Amil of Rasullah.
"You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food."
--The Quran references Najwa to be given as a gift for a lesson. Imam Hakim and the Dais that lead the majalis in Cairo are recorded as receiving najwa.
You say dris means lesson. Yes that term was daras and not daris and Sayedna Hatim used to give daras to momineen and there was no question of monitory contribution and enjoying of best of the food.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Its rather strange when you justfy Raza from incidance of Prophet blessing marrage after the fact.From qiyam
--Your basing your argument on what muslims today do??? That's suicide. Most of the muslims today follow the method of Islam ingrained by the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs. Remember they don't believe in Imamate either.
"There are many incidents where the Holy prophet came to know of certain marriage being going on in Muslim houses and he sent his blessings to the couple afterwards. Dead bodies of Muslims were buried and the Holy Prophet came to know of their death much letter."
Bohra's ignore direct commands of Allah like when Allah says in Quran 72:18 "And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
Despite this specific instructions to invoke Allah alone. Bohra's sing "Ghanu jivo---ghanu jivo" in the praise of their demi-god. They beat their chest despit a authentic Hadith of prophet forbidding it.
For your information there is a Hadith, Hasan al-Bari reported that the Prophet said; "A time will come when the conversation of people in the mosque will center around worldly affairs. You must nor sit with such people, for Allah has nothing to do with them." [Related by al-Bayhaqi]
also
Amr bin Shu'ayb related on authority of his father and grandfather: "The prophet SAW forbade buying, selling,seeking lost property, and reciting poetry in mosque." [Abu Dawud and at-Tirmidhi]
Now my question to you brother qiyam is please justify singing poetry in masjid, Maatam in masjid and Historical inflammatory diatribe in the form of majlish?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Muslim First, On your point on matam:
Rasulullah (SAW) himself has been known to do matam of his grandson Imam Husain (AS) even though Imam Husain's Shahadat didn't occur till much later after Rasulullah's (SAW) wafat. Before his death Rasulullah (SAW) made four parts out of Hunut he had received from Janaat on Lailatul-meraaj. Rasulullah (SAW) had given one part to Maulana Ali (AS) and told him to put it in Rasulullah's Qabr. He gave another part to him and told Maulana Ali to give it to Imam Hasan (AS) to put in Maulana Ali's Qabr. He then Gave a part to Maulatena Fatema (AS), his daughter and told her to give it to Maulana Ali to put it in her qabr. Finally he gave the last part to Imam Hasan (AS) to give it to Imam Husain to be put in Imam Hasan's Qabr. Imam Husain (AS) then asked Rasulullah (SAW), "Oh Rasulullah! You have always treated me equally as Hasan. You have always carried both of us on your shoulders. Why is it now that you have left me out of the barakat of the hunut from jannat?" Rasulullah replied with teras in his eyes that Imam Husain's body would be left on the ground after his Shahadat and told him of the cruelties the forces of Yazid would throw on him. At that, Rasulullah and the rest of the sahebs in attendance started doing matam of Imam Husain.
There are many other instances where Rasulullah has foretold the Shahadat of Imam Husain and has cried and done matam on him.
Rasulullah has said, "Those who cry and do matam for my grandson Husain, Those who make other people cry and do matam for husain and for even those who make crying faces when he hears the zikr of Husain (should his heart be so hardened that he cannot cry), He will be granted entry to jannat."
So Muslim First, please tell me why we shoudn't do matam of Imam Husain, when the Holy Prophet himself instructed us to do so.
Rasulullah (SAW) himself has been known to do matam of his grandson Imam Husain (AS) even though Imam Husain's Shahadat didn't occur till much later after Rasulullah's (SAW) wafat. Before his death Rasulullah (SAW) made four parts out of Hunut he had received from Janaat on Lailatul-meraaj. Rasulullah (SAW) had given one part to Maulana Ali (AS) and told him to put it in Rasulullah's Qabr. He gave another part to him and told Maulana Ali to give it to Imam Hasan (AS) to put in Maulana Ali's Qabr. He then Gave a part to Maulatena Fatema (AS), his daughter and told her to give it to Maulana Ali to put it in her qabr. Finally he gave the last part to Imam Hasan (AS) to give it to Imam Husain to be put in Imam Hasan's Qabr. Imam Husain (AS) then asked Rasulullah (SAW), "Oh Rasulullah! You have always treated me equally as Hasan. You have always carried both of us on your shoulders. Why is it now that you have left me out of the barakat of the hunut from jannat?" Rasulullah replied with teras in his eyes that Imam Husain's body would be left on the ground after his Shahadat and told him of the cruelties the forces of Yazid would throw on him. At that, Rasulullah and the rest of the sahebs in attendance started doing matam of Imam Husain.
There are many other instances where Rasulullah has foretold the Shahadat of Imam Husain and has cried and done matam on him.
Rasulullah has said, "Those who cry and do matam for my grandson Husain, Those who make other people cry and do matam for husain and for even those who make crying faces when he hears the zikr of Husain (should his heart be so hardened that he cannot cry), He will be granted entry to jannat."
So Muslim First, please tell me why we shoudn't do matam of Imam Husain, when the Holy Prophet himself instructed us to do so.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Br Anhar_ Where did you get this info about Matam ? One of the cheap Vaez of Syedna where you are not allowed to question anything? You seem to have been brain washed on entry to Jannat -Wake up & do some other good deeds that might help than blindly following your Syedna!
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
MuslimFirst,
"Its rather strange when you justfy Raza from incidance of Prophet blessing marrage after the fact."
---I did not quote incidents after the fact...however I did mention where muslims commonly asked raza from the Prophet. I have quoted this on other thread...again the short memory syndrome that exists on this site. I was common for muslims to ask the Prophet on many things (ie naming children, business venture, fiqh, etc). This was partially for barakat and partially because of the permission (raza) of the Prophet. Again, no one was authorized to lead salat except by leave of the Prophet or his appointee of an area.
In regards to your quoted ayat...read it very clearly and try to understand how poetry and worshipping are not related.
"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
---note the KEY word here is worship. The masajid is worship ONLY for Allah. When we recite "ghanu jivo.." WHO is being asked to bring long life to Sayedna (tus)???? ALLAH!! Even the "(t.u.s.)" means may ALLAH give/extend his age. No one names is ever taken in worship EXCEPT ALLAH.
Reciting and singing qasidahs and poetry were common in the time of the Prophet and amongst muslim. There are hadith of the poetry being recited in front of the Prophet for entertainment. The Prophet was greeted by one of the most famous qasidahs when coming back to Mecca from Madina.."Tala'al Badru Alaina".
"They beat their chest despit a authentic Hadith of prophet forbidding it."
--please quote this.
"Its rather strange when you justfy Raza from incidance of Prophet blessing marrage after the fact."
---I did not quote incidents after the fact...however I did mention where muslims commonly asked raza from the Prophet. I have quoted this on other thread...again the short memory syndrome that exists on this site. I was common for muslims to ask the Prophet on many things (ie naming children, business venture, fiqh, etc). This was partially for barakat and partially because of the permission (raza) of the Prophet. Again, no one was authorized to lead salat except by leave of the Prophet or his appointee of an area.
In regards to your quoted ayat...read it very clearly and try to understand how poetry and worshipping are not related.
"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
---note the KEY word here is worship. The masajid is worship ONLY for Allah. When we recite "ghanu jivo.." WHO is being asked to bring long life to Sayedna (tus)???? ALLAH!! Even the "(t.u.s.)" means may ALLAH give/extend his age. No one names is ever taken in worship EXCEPT ALLAH.
Reciting and singing qasidahs and poetry were common in the time of the Prophet and amongst muslim. There are hadith of the poetry being recited in front of the Prophet for entertainment. The Prophet was greeted by one of the most famous qasidahs when coming back to Mecca from Madina.."Tala'al Badru Alaina".
"They beat their chest despit a authentic Hadith of prophet forbidding it."
--please quote this.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
where do anhar get all this,"Rasulullah (SAW) himself has been known to do matam of his grandson Imam Husain (AS) even though Imam Husain's Shahadat didn't occur till much later after Rasulullah's (SAW) wafat--------------". Without any authentic proof, or references, this
information is nothing but a junk of rubbish. It wont surprise me that the source is "vaiz", or probably one of those famous "daris"
information is nothing but a junk of rubbish. It wont surprise me that the source is "vaiz", or probably one of those famous "daris"
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
What is the difference between "komi libas" and "Imani libas". Is this another one of Kothari inventions to milk the stupid bohri? 
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Dear anwar
Before asking me for authentic proof, please pove whatever hadith you people have been bringing out in your discussions. Upon checking, half of the hadith you talk about don't even exist.
About Rasulullah doing matam, it has been recorded by many of his most distinguished ashab and ecspeacially by his Wasi Maulana Ali (AS) in many of his kitaab.
Before asking me for authentic proof, please pove whatever hadith you people have been bringing out in your discussions. Upon checking, half of the hadith you talk about don't even exist.
About Rasulullah doing matam, it has been recorded by many of his most distinguished ashab and ecspeacially by his Wasi Maulana Ali (AS) in many of his kitaab.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
I guess Imani Libas comes after Fat Salams since Money is measurement of piety(iman) in Bohra Firqa.Originally posted by Anwar:
What is the difference between "komi libas" and "Imani libas". Is this another one of Kothari inventions to milk the stupid bohri?
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Katwa ke buhattar ko na roai Shabbir,
Chauda so baras bad ye rona kaisa?
Kufa was the Capital of Hazrat Ali and therefore a center of Shias. These shias invited Husain to fight against Yazid but turned their back as soon as the governor of Kufa was changed and they were warned of sever consequences. Muslim bin Aqil was killed in front of their eyes, Husain and 72 others were killed in front of their eyes but at a time when two third world had become Muslims, hundreds of mosques were built, azans were given, Quran was being read everywhere, ashabs who had heard and fought for Islam with the holy Prophet and Hazrat Ali they all remain silent spectators, no one came forward to save grand son of their Prophet and son of their Ali. It is a very sad story of FEAR. the FEAR that prevels still in our community which stops us from telling the truth. As for Sayedna Saheb is concerned all his tear shadding in the name of Husain is an eyewash. How can he talk of Husain when he himself is living a life of Banu-Umayyah. Insisting for Misaq, denying burial & marriages, torturing people for Safai-Chtthi, Cards, raza, wajebat, sajdat. Fabricating stories and provocating violence.
Mawya used to invite people to his palaces to come witness the magistic power he was enjoying.
What Sayedna is doing with Reformist Bohras the Mawiya had done same thing with Abuzar Gaffari and other out-spoken sahabis, who used to critise him openly and warn him openly for the tyrant and luxurious life he was living.
So it is the Power that people fear and it is the FEAR which hides the truth.
Chauda so baras bad ye rona kaisa?
Kufa was the Capital of Hazrat Ali and therefore a center of Shias. These shias invited Husain to fight against Yazid but turned their back as soon as the governor of Kufa was changed and they were warned of sever consequences. Muslim bin Aqil was killed in front of their eyes, Husain and 72 others were killed in front of their eyes but at a time when two third world had become Muslims, hundreds of mosques were built, azans were given, Quran was being read everywhere, ashabs who had heard and fought for Islam with the holy Prophet and Hazrat Ali they all remain silent spectators, no one came forward to save grand son of their Prophet and son of their Ali. It is a very sad story of FEAR. the FEAR that prevels still in our community which stops us from telling the truth. As for Sayedna Saheb is concerned all his tear shadding in the name of Husain is an eyewash. How can he talk of Husain when he himself is living a life of Banu-Umayyah. Insisting for Misaq, denying burial & marriages, torturing people for Safai-Chtthi, Cards, raza, wajebat, sajdat. Fabricating stories and provocating violence.
Mawya used to invite people to his palaces to come witness the magistic power he was enjoying.
What Sayedna is doing with Reformist Bohras the Mawiya had done same thing with Abuzar Gaffari and other out-spoken sahabis, who used to critise him openly and warn him openly for the tyrant and luxurious life he was living.
So it is the Power that people fear and it is the FEAR which hides the truth.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
This sounds like Bohra Masjid. People are forced to go to masjid and the only worthwhile thing is eating and chit-chat. As for the Amils and khotars, masjid is their dukan(shop).Originally posted by Muslim First:
From qiyam
For your information there is a Hadith, Hasan al-Bari reported that the Prophet said; "A time will come when the conversation of people in the mosque will center around worldly affairs. You must nor sit with such people, for Allah has nothing to do with them." [Related by al-Bayhaqi]
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
It is from one of those secret dawat book which can only be read by the Dai or Khotar. In this book you can get any fatwa you want .Originally posted by Anwar:
where do anhar get all this,"Rasulullah (SAW) himself ...Without any authentic proof, or references, this
information is nothing but a junk of rubbish. It wont surprise me that the source is "vaiz", or probably one of those famous "daris"
You might be familiar with some of fatwa from this book ….such as….Burhanuddin the Dai can go on yearly safari to hunt endangered animal in Africa, Kissing feet of Burnanuddin is okay because the slaves are intoxicated with Moula ka Shan..etc
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Just one question Qiyam,Originally posted by qiyam:
---I did not quote incidents after the fact...however I did mention where muslims commonly asked raza from the Prophet.
What is the Arabic word for Raza?
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
It is from one of those secret dawat book which can only be read by the Dai or Khotar. In this book you can get any fatwa you want .
Dear Jinx, You might be joking but there really exist a secret book called 'Al-Kitab' written by late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb which has the theories of Zahir Imam/Batin Imam, Zahir Dai/Batin Dai, Zahir Mazoon/Mukasr and Batin Mazoon/Mukasr which has been reffered by Tazoon bhai Saheb Shakir on his Zahir/batin Web.
Recently I happen to meet an elderly gentleman from Yamani family who told me that this secret book 'Al-Kitab' has many interesting formulated by late Sayedna; for example on death of any members of his family who will marry the widow and in case a Dai expires without declaring 'Nass' how his successor be appointed. If it is true one should admire his foresight.
Shahzadi Maryam bahen Saheba can throw more light on this.
Dear Jinx, You might be joking but there really exist a secret book called 'Al-Kitab' written by late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb which has the theories of Zahir Imam/Batin Imam, Zahir Dai/Batin Dai, Zahir Mazoon/Mukasr and Batin Mazoon/Mukasr which has been reffered by Tazoon bhai Saheb Shakir on his Zahir/batin Web.
Recently I happen to meet an elderly gentleman from Yamani family who told me that this secret book 'Al-Kitab' has many interesting formulated by late Sayedna; for example on death of any members of his family who will marry the widow and in case a Dai expires without declaring 'Nass' how his successor be appointed. If it is true one should admire his foresight.
Shahzadi Maryam bahen Saheba can throw more light on this.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Actually, the book has been called "A'ala Kitaab" meaning "High Book". It was referred to in a conversation between Taizoon and a lady(don't remember who) and posted on now defunct zahir-batin.com.
Nobody knows who authored it or what its contemns are, that is, if it exists at all.
Nobody knows who authored it or what its contemns are, that is, if it exists at all.
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Muslim First
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Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
From Br.qiyam
But do you have any evidence that they were done inside the Masjid?
I am sure Prophet would have not violated Allah's Commad in Quran 72:18 which says: "And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
The Prophet was greeted by one of the most famous qasidahs when coming back to Mecca from Madina.."Tala'al Badru Alaina".
That was when he reached Madina and he had not built the Masjid.
BTW I read that as per Aamil of Atlanta " makan dukan na mahurat per ghari " is a Bohra Deeni Miqaat.
Tell me if Prophet did Mahurat and buried a Ghari when he built his Masjid in Madina?
Wasalaam
.
Yes, Reciting and singing qasidahs and poetry were common in the time of the Prophet and amongst muslims.Reciting and singing qasidahs and poetry were common in the time of the Prophet and amongst muslim. There are hadith of the poetry being recited in front of the Prophet for entertainment. The Prophet was greeted by one of the most famous qasidahs when coming back to Mecca from Madina.."Tala'al Badru Alaina".
But do you have any evidence that they were done inside the Masjid?
I am sure Prophet would have not violated Allah's Commad in Quran 72:18 which says: "And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
The Prophet was greeted by one of the most famous qasidahs when coming back to Mecca from Madina.."Tala'al Badru Alaina".
That was when he reached Madina and he had not built the Masjid.
BTW I read that as per Aamil of Atlanta " makan dukan na mahurat per ghari " is a Bohra Deeni Miqaat.
Tell me if Prophet did Mahurat and buried a Ghari when he built his Masjid in Madina?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Uhh.. not so fast!
But do you have any evidence that they were done inside the Masjid?
MF hadith-thumps Bohra "polythiests" with the Sunni canon (which is more like trying to extol the virtues of a bacon sausage to a vegetarian) and then asks qiyam for "evidence" that would challenge his narrow literal brand of Islam. Not quite the master of all Sunni-hadiths? Here, let me do the dirty-work for you, so you don't have to go to AskImam.com and say "is poetry haram in a mosque? is it permissible for women to drive cars? is the world flat?"
Bukhari v4, b54, n434: Narrated Sa'id bin Al-Musaiyab: 'Umar came to the Mosque while Hassan was reciting a poem. ('Umar disapproved of that). On that Hassan said, "I used to recite poetry in this very Mosque in the presence of one (i.e. the Prophet ) who was better than you." Then he turned towards Abu Huraira and said (to him), "I ask you by Allah, did you hear Allah's Apostle saying (to me), "Retort on my behalf. O Allah! Support him (i.e. Hassan) with the Holy Spirit?" Abu Huraira said, "Yes."
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MF declares: They beat their chest despit a authentic Hadith of prophet
Qiyam replies: --please quote this.
This met with a pin-drop silence from MF on this question. MF, please search harder for your benefit (because YOUR "authentic" blabber would NOT matter to a Shia - get it?).
-------------
Bohra's ignore direct commands of Allah like when Allah says in Quran 72:18 "And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
Let's paraphrase and look at what is actually being said:
Wa ana (And that) almasaajida (the masjids) lillahi (are for Allah) fala (therefore do not) tad'u (supplicate [tad'u = to supplicate, pray, invoke; from the same root as du'a = supplication, prayer, invocation]) ma' allahi ahadan (upon any one with Allah).
So Mr Literalist, we're not talking about simply mentioning another's name when in a mosque (imagine that, can you?!) - but making a supplication/prayer/dua to them as the pagans did.
Maybe if you spent more time understanding what the Quran is actually saying rather than prostituting the literal meaning of the Quran for mud-slinging, you wouldn't be making such a complete pig's arse of yourself.
-----------
On the thread "Disgusting!", Jinx pampers MF: We still have people who believe that making men grovel and humiliate themselves for the privilege of kissing Moula feet is part of Islam and Bohri sect. These ppl are brainwashed beyond help.
From Safwan ibn `Asal al-Muradi: "One of two Jews said to his companion: Take us to this Prophet so we can ask him about Musa's ten signs... [the Prophet replied in full and then] they kissed his hands and feet and said: we witness that you are a Prophet..." Narrated by Ibn Abi Shayba (Book of Adab, Chapter entitled A Man Kissing Another Man's Hand When He greets Him), Tirmidhi (Book of Adab) who declared it hasan sahih, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Maja (Book of Adab), and al-Hakim who declared it sahih.
Burayda said: When we were with Allah's Messenger on an expedition, a Bedouin came and asked for a miracle. The Prophet pointed at a tree and said to the Bedouin: "Tell that tree: Allah's Messenger summons you." The Beduin did, whereupon the tree swayed and brought itself out, and came to the presence of the Prophet saying: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah!" The Bedouin said: "Now let it return to its place!" When Allah's Messenger ordered it, the tree went back. The Bedouin said: "let me prostrate to you!" The Messenger answered: "If I commanded anyone to do that, I would command the wife to prostrate to her husband." The Bedouin said: "Then give me permission to kiss your hands and feet." The Prophet gave him permission. (Qadi `Iyad narrated it in al-Shifa' (1:299) and al-Bazzar in his Musnad (3:49).)
A man came to the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and told him that he had taken a vow that should Allah Ta'ala grant Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) victory over Makkah, he would go the Holy Kaaba and kiss the chaukat. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) instructed him: "Go and kiss the feet of your mother. Your vow will be complete." (Umdatul Qaari)
Yeah, MF & Co, how "disgusting", and how "brainwashed beyond help" !
--------------
Qiyam was actually RIGHT this time.
But do you have any evidence that they were done inside the Masjid?
MF hadith-thumps Bohra "polythiests" with the Sunni canon (which is more like trying to extol the virtues of a bacon sausage to a vegetarian) and then asks qiyam for "evidence" that would challenge his narrow literal brand of Islam. Not quite the master of all Sunni-hadiths? Here, let me do the dirty-work for you, so you don't have to go to AskImam.com and say "is poetry haram in a mosque? is it permissible for women to drive cars? is the world flat?"
Bukhari v4, b54, n434: Narrated Sa'id bin Al-Musaiyab: 'Umar came to the Mosque while Hassan was reciting a poem. ('Umar disapproved of that). On that Hassan said, "I used to recite poetry in this very Mosque in the presence of one (i.e. the Prophet ) who was better than you." Then he turned towards Abu Huraira and said (to him), "I ask you by Allah, did you hear Allah's Apostle saying (to me), "Retort on my behalf. O Allah! Support him (i.e. Hassan) with the Holy Spirit?" Abu Huraira said, "Yes."
------------
MF declares: They beat their chest despit a authentic Hadith of prophet
Qiyam replies: --please quote this.
This met with a pin-drop silence from MF on this question. MF, please search harder for your benefit (because YOUR "authentic" blabber would NOT matter to a Shia - get it?).
-------------
Bohra's ignore direct commands of Allah like when Allah says in Quran 72:18 "And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah;"
Let's paraphrase and look at what is actually being said:
Wa ana (And that) almasaajida (the masjids) lillahi (are for Allah) fala (therefore do not) tad'u (supplicate [tad'u = to supplicate, pray, invoke; from the same root as du'a = supplication, prayer, invocation]) ma' allahi ahadan (upon any one with Allah).
So Mr Literalist, we're not talking about simply mentioning another's name when in a mosque (imagine that, can you?!) - but making a supplication/prayer/dua to them as the pagans did.
Maybe if you spent more time understanding what the Quran is actually saying rather than prostituting the literal meaning of the Quran for mud-slinging, you wouldn't be making such a complete pig's arse of yourself.
-----------
On the thread "Disgusting!", Jinx pampers MF: We still have people who believe that making men grovel and humiliate themselves for the privilege of kissing Moula feet is part of Islam and Bohri sect. These ppl are brainwashed beyond help.
From Safwan ibn `Asal al-Muradi: "One of two Jews said to his companion: Take us to this Prophet so we can ask him about Musa's ten signs... [the Prophet replied in full and then] they kissed his hands and feet and said: we witness that you are a Prophet..." Narrated by Ibn Abi Shayba (Book of Adab, Chapter entitled A Man Kissing Another Man's Hand When He greets Him), Tirmidhi (Book of Adab) who declared it hasan sahih, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Maja (Book of Adab), and al-Hakim who declared it sahih.
Burayda said: When we were with Allah's Messenger on an expedition, a Bedouin came and asked for a miracle. The Prophet pointed at a tree and said to the Bedouin: "Tell that tree: Allah's Messenger summons you." The Beduin did, whereupon the tree swayed and brought itself out, and came to the presence of the Prophet saying: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah!" The Bedouin said: "Now let it return to its place!" When Allah's Messenger ordered it, the tree went back. The Bedouin said: "let me prostrate to you!" The Messenger answered: "If I commanded anyone to do that, I would command the wife to prostrate to her husband." The Bedouin said: "Then give me permission to kiss your hands and feet." The Prophet gave him permission. (Qadi `Iyad narrated it in al-Shifa' (1:299) and al-Bazzar in his Musnad (3:49).)
A man came to the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) and told him that he had taken a vow that should Allah Ta'ala grant Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) victory over Makkah, he would go the Holy Kaaba and kiss the chaukat. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) instructed him: "Go and kiss the feet of your mother. Your vow will be complete." (Umdatul Qaari)
Yeah, MF & Co, how "disgusting", and how "brainwashed beyond help" !
--------------
Qiyam was actually RIGHT this time.
Re: Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
Some things you'd wish you hear progressives say
The topic in itself is oxymoronic. Free people can say what they want. Therefore if the progressives haven't said something, it should be derived that they haven't said it because that's not how they feel.
Anhar, perhaps you could strive for the same in the Orthodox community (without repercussion ofcourse) in which case, the progressive movement would cease to exist. They would simply be Bohras who wouldn't have to "wish" about what they have to "say", but just say it as they do here.
Yes, it's that simple, so why not strive for it in whatever you believe in ? If the belief is strong enough, why worry about dissension ?
The topic in itself is oxymoronic. Free people can say what they want. Therefore if the progressives haven't said something, it should be derived that they haven't said it because that's not how they feel.
Anhar, perhaps you could strive for the same in the Orthodox community (without repercussion ofcourse) in which case, the progressive movement would cease to exist. They would simply be Bohras who wouldn't have to "wish" about what they have to "say", but just say it as they do here.
Yes, it's that simple, so why not strive for it in whatever you believe in ? If the belief is strong enough, why worry about dissension ?