An Event from "One Against All"
An Event from "One Against All"
Friends,
Following is one incident from the Book 'One against All" written on the life of Zehra Cyclewala:
A SHOCKING INCIDENT THAT OCCURED ON 13th DAY OF RAMZAN
For the citizens of Surat that day was an usual day full of daily routine. It was the 13th day of holy month of Ramadan and believers were fasting. The heat was severe. People were tired. Some persons had taken small break from work to soothen their busy minds and tired bodies. In the midst of usual business activities there was some strange silence in the atmosphere. Some individuals seeking peace and comfort for themselves had decided to disturb the peace of others. Some individuals are born sadists who enjoy harassing and torturing others. That day there was a gathering of such sadist Dawoodi Bohras in 'Saifee Street' of Surat at mid-noon. There was loud provocation and commotion inside the Bohra mosque of the area. Many fanatics with their long hanging beards and robs were shouting disgustingly. Any civilised person with a trace of decency and sense of religion would never do any thing as heinous especially in the holy month of Ramadan. But these people were different. They, who called themselves 'religious' and true followers of Sayedna, were engaged in most unholy act of opposing the burial of an old lady belonging to their own community. They in rage were shouting " we will not allow the burial of Muddaee Fulibai's burial in our cemetery."
But Fulibai had done nothing to invite Sayedna's wrath. She was an elderly believing lady. A Dawoodi Bohra by birth who remained faithful to her religion all her life. She had expired and her dead body was dishonored. The fanatic followers of Sayedna were making all efforts to stop her burial in the community's burial ground. They were over vehemently carrying on their mission. Their noise was becoming higher each time. The Dawoodi Bohras were gathering there in more and more numbers and were creating a mass-hysteria for slogan-shouters.
But even in such circumstances most people do show their respect to a dead person. They may not attend celebrations but they hardly fail to attend a funeral ceremony. Even the last rites of a hardcore criminal are carried out as the last rites of saints and priests. Death is an event that the sins of the dead are forgiven. All the bitterness is buried in the soil or burnt in ashes. Then why the burial of Fulibai was stopped. She was not a criminal, nor she had committed any sin.
But in the eyes of Sayedna she was a 'sinner'. Her sin was that Fulibai was the mother of a girl named Zehra Taherali Cyclewala. Zehra herself was a follower of Sayedna and an ordinary kind Bohra from her childhood. But she was forced to fight a battle against atrocious and rigid religious leadership. The unjust, inhuman and exploitative leadership that had terrorized the entire community. That is why her relatives and other Bohras had disowned Falibai on her death and had submitted to the authoritarian rule. Though bearing all odds Zhera Cyclewala had remained committed. There was nobody except herself at the time of her mother's death as her father had died many years ago. Fulibai had five children, two sons and three daughters and they were alive and grown up today. But they had no courage and self-respect to appose the exploitative leaders for fear of excommunication.
The entire scene of dishonoring Falibai's dead body was so horrifying and blood boiling that many passerby strangers cried looking at it. But Fulibai's own children had become absolutely insensitive. The fear had wiped out all humanity in them. They had no fear of god but they feared the wrath of Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin and his inhuman Amils.
The local Bohras and Fulibai's own children had disowned her, but how could Zehra forget her mother who chose to stay with her till her last breath. Zehra was determined to give her a most lovable farewell. So she kept her courage. She wanted to weep and cry loudly, she wanted to roll her tears down to console her heart, but she could not afford to do so. She did not weep. She remained calm and passionate but not inactive. Gathering all her courage she went to the mosque and started a logical dialogue with the Amil and community leaders. She asked them, "Have I changed my religion? No, I still follow the principles of the community based on Islam. I offer my daily prayers. I have been paying regularly my sabil and other dues. What is my fault? Why this harassment?" Zehra's arguments were logical but there was no room for logic in minds of mullas hearing them. Their conscious had died down. After hearing continuous arguments from Zehra, the Jamat members permitted Fulibai's funeral ceremony. But the Amil of Sayedna put one condition before Zehra. "Withdraw all your court cases against us. Then and then only we will permit the burial of your mother's dead body."
For Zehra, court cases were like Jihad. An ongoing struggle for the truth. Her mother, Fuliben had inspired her daughter to fight for the values of religion and truth. And Fuliben's dead body was lying in front of her as a challenge. A storm had erupted in her mind. " Can Allah ever give such inhuman orders? What sin my mother had committed against Islam? Can a true Muslim dishonour an old lady's dead body?" The cases she had filed were for her fundamental rights of live and to perform her duties as a citizen of India. At last she reached at the conclusion that Fuliben would be buried in the Dawoodi Bohra Graveyard even if she had to take the protection of police and the law! On the other hand the fanatics and selfish leaders were almost ready to throw the dead body out of the mosque. Zehra did not want to loose time. So she rushed to Mahidharpura Police station in Surat.
At police station she explained the situation to the officer in-charge, PI Shree M.G. Kaneria. She explained her stand giving some proofs of her fight for right to live. The police force rushed to the Saifee Street. Till then, thousands of people had gathered there. Hindus and Muslims were cursing the leaders of the Bohra community. The Sunni Muslims offered her to bury her mother's dead body in their cemetery but Zehra did not accept it. She had decided to expose high-handedness of the Amil and Jamat's office bearers.
The fanatics of Sayedna were aware of their unfair act. Therefore the moment the police arrived, their fury subsided. After some arguments, they agreed to permit Fulibai's burial in the community's graveyard, but again played a trick to save their face. They allowed the burial in a place, which was earmarked for the dead bodies of suicidal cases. Zehra refused the offer. As pressure built up by police and Sunni Muslims the Amil and Jamat members allowed the burial in the usual place where repectable members are buried. Thousand of Hindus and Muslims also joined the funeral procession. A large crowd had collected on the roads. Fuliben had died at 2'O'clock in the afternoon but her body was buried finally 3 o'clock at night under heavy police protection. Tears now broke down in Zehra's eyes. Her mother had got justice after a long struggle. The news had flashed in the prominent National dailies like Times of India, Indian Express, and other Gujarati local newspapers of Gujarat.
Following is one incident from the Book 'One against All" written on the life of Zehra Cyclewala:
A SHOCKING INCIDENT THAT OCCURED ON 13th DAY OF RAMZAN
For the citizens of Surat that day was an usual day full of daily routine. It was the 13th day of holy month of Ramadan and believers were fasting. The heat was severe. People were tired. Some persons had taken small break from work to soothen their busy minds and tired bodies. In the midst of usual business activities there was some strange silence in the atmosphere. Some individuals seeking peace and comfort for themselves had decided to disturb the peace of others. Some individuals are born sadists who enjoy harassing and torturing others. That day there was a gathering of such sadist Dawoodi Bohras in 'Saifee Street' of Surat at mid-noon. There was loud provocation and commotion inside the Bohra mosque of the area. Many fanatics with their long hanging beards and robs were shouting disgustingly. Any civilised person with a trace of decency and sense of religion would never do any thing as heinous especially in the holy month of Ramadan. But these people were different. They, who called themselves 'religious' and true followers of Sayedna, were engaged in most unholy act of opposing the burial of an old lady belonging to their own community. They in rage were shouting " we will not allow the burial of Muddaee Fulibai's burial in our cemetery."
But Fulibai had done nothing to invite Sayedna's wrath. She was an elderly believing lady. A Dawoodi Bohra by birth who remained faithful to her religion all her life. She had expired and her dead body was dishonored. The fanatic followers of Sayedna were making all efforts to stop her burial in the community's burial ground. They were over vehemently carrying on their mission. Their noise was becoming higher each time. The Dawoodi Bohras were gathering there in more and more numbers and were creating a mass-hysteria for slogan-shouters.
But even in such circumstances most people do show their respect to a dead person. They may not attend celebrations but they hardly fail to attend a funeral ceremony. Even the last rites of a hardcore criminal are carried out as the last rites of saints and priests. Death is an event that the sins of the dead are forgiven. All the bitterness is buried in the soil or burnt in ashes. Then why the burial of Fulibai was stopped. She was not a criminal, nor she had committed any sin.
But in the eyes of Sayedna she was a 'sinner'. Her sin was that Fulibai was the mother of a girl named Zehra Taherali Cyclewala. Zehra herself was a follower of Sayedna and an ordinary kind Bohra from her childhood. But she was forced to fight a battle against atrocious and rigid religious leadership. The unjust, inhuman and exploitative leadership that had terrorized the entire community. That is why her relatives and other Bohras had disowned Falibai on her death and had submitted to the authoritarian rule. Though bearing all odds Zhera Cyclewala had remained committed. There was nobody except herself at the time of her mother's death as her father had died many years ago. Fulibai had five children, two sons and three daughters and they were alive and grown up today. But they had no courage and self-respect to appose the exploitative leaders for fear of excommunication.
The entire scene of dishonoring Falibai's dead body was so horrifying and blood boiling that many passerby strangers cried looking at it. But Fulibai's own children had become absolutely insensitive. The fear had wiped out all humanity in them. They had no fear of god but they feared the wrath of Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin and his inhuman Amils.
The local Bohras and Fulibai's own children had disowned her, but how could Zehra forget her mother who chose to stay with her till her last breath. Zehra was determined to give her a most lovable farewell. So she kept her courage. She wanted to weep and cry loudly, she wanted to roll her tears down to console her heart, but she could not afford to do so. She did not weep. She remained calm and passionate but not inactive. Gathering all her courage she went to the mosque and started a logical dialogue with the Amil and community leaders. She asked them, "Have I changed my religion? No, I still follow the principles of the community based on Islam. I offer my daily prayers. I have been paying regularly my sabil and other dues. What is my fault? Why this harassment?" Zehra's arguments were logical but there was no room for logic in minds of mullas hearing them. Their conscious had died down. After hearing continuous arguments from Zehra, the Jamat members permitted Fulibai's funeral ceremony. But the Amil of Sayedna put one condition before Zehra. "Withdraw all your court cases against us. Then and then only we will permit the burial of your mother's dead body."
For Zehra, court cases were like Jihad. An ongoing struggle for the truth. Her mother, Fuliben had inspired her daughter to fight for the values of religion and truth. And Fuliben's dead body was lying in front of her as a challenge. A storm had erupted in her mind. " Can Allah ever give such inhuman orders? What sin my mother had committed against Islam? Can a true Muslim dishonour an old lady's dead body?" The cases she had filed were for her fundamental rights of live and to perform her duties as a citizen of India. At last she reached at the conclusion that Fuliben would be buried in the Dawoodi Bohra Graveyard even if she had to take the protection of police and the law! On the other hand the fanatics and selfish leaders were almost ready to throw the dead body out of the mosque. Zehra did not want to loose time. So she rushed to Mahidharpura Police station in Surat.
At police station she explained the situation to the officer in-charge, PI Shree M.G. Kaneria. She explained her stand giving some proofs of her fight for right to live. The police force rushed to the Saifee Street. Till then, thousands of people had gathered there. Hindus and Muslims were cursing the leaders of the Bohra community. The Sunni Muslims offered her to bury her mother's dead body in their cemetery but Zehra did not accept it. She had decided to expose high-handedness of the Amil and Jamat's office bearers.
The fanatics of Sayedna were aware of their unfair act. Therefore the moment the police arrived, their fury subsided. After some arguments, they agreed to permit Fulibai's burial in the community's graveyard, but again played a trick to save their face. They allowed the burial in a place, which was earmarked for the dead bodies of suicidal cases. Zehra refused the offer. As pressure built up by police and Sunni Muslims the Amil and Jamat members allowed the burial in the usual place where repectable members are buried. Thousand of Hindus and Muslims also joined the funeral procession. A large crowd had collected on the roads. Fuliben had died at 2'O'clock in the afternoon but her body was buried finally 3 o'clock at night under heavy police protection. Tears now broke down in Zehra's eyes. Her mother had got justice after a long struggle. The news had flashed in the prominent National dailies like Times of India, Indian Express, and other Gujarati local newspapers of Gujarat.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
so tell me what is the solution for this..?
it usually ends up as this, 'one against all', in our community. the rest sit on the sidelines and watch, some are too terrified to get involved, some sympathetic but dont have to the guts to speak out. most of the rest, the fanatic ones, get an ideal oppotunity to vent their collected spleen against the happless victim for various personal or vested interests.
the terror of the establishment is so great that no one dares...and besides we are a community of baniya's, not the belligerent warrior type that attacks physically first and thinks later!
i was joking with a few friends recently that maybe we should work on converting a few hundred blacks into our bohras, then whenever they are challenged by the bhaisaab or whoever, they'll flash a gun or knife and say, "here u motherf***er, take this u bloody ar**hole, wanna mess with me..??!!"
but one of my friends, perhaps more worldly wise to the ways of our kothar, instantly replied, "so what, our guys will get a black aamil to fix them, no big deal!!"

it usually ends up as this, 'one against all', in our community. the rest sit on the sidelines and watch, some are too terrified to get involved, some sympathetic but dont have to the guts to speak out. most of the rest, the fanatic ones, get an ideal oppotunity to vent their collected spleen against the happless victim for various personal or vested interests.
the terror of the establishment is so great that no one dares...and besides we are a community of baniya's, not the belligerent warrior type that attacks physically first and thinks later!
i was joking with a few friends recently that maybe we should work on converting a few hundred blacks into our bohras, then whenever they are challenged by the bhaisaab or whoever, they'll flash a gun or knife and say, "here u motherf***er, take this u bloody ar**hole, wanna mess with me..??!!"
but one of my friends, perhaps more worldly wise to the ways of our kothar, instantly replied, "so what, our guys will get a black aamil to fix them, no big deal!!"


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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
you cant fight the well-entrenched kothar on spiritual or moral grounds, they simply twist everything around with their propaganda machine, you cant fight them with money or politics or the law, their resources are too superior.
at this point what is sorely lacking is a well-organised and completely united opposition. let us honestly examine whether that exists..??
the no. of people willing to leave the orthodox and join up with the progressives will increase by ten-fold, 'YES, TEN FOLD'!!!!, if the progressives can stop their internal petty bickering and sincerely decide to improve their co-ordination with one voice and one united front. presently each progressive jamaat is tending to get isolated from the others. i am not saying to bring in another framework like the kothar, but there must be some other solutions to get us all integrated and interwoven to fight the powerful kothar.
also has anyone seriously considered, what after bro. asgharali engineer...?? is there an able second-tier leadership cadre ready? presently, without bro. engineer there is no other nationally and internationally recognised 'face' for the progressives. he is exceptional and doing his best, but besides him and after him, what else? ....
at this point what is sorely lacking is a well-organised and completely united opposition. let us honestly examine whether that exists..??
the no. of people willing to leave the orthodox and join up with the progressives will increase by ten-fold, 'YES, TEN FOLD'!!!!, if the progressives can stop their internal petty bickering and sincerely decide to improve their co-ordination with one voice and one united front. presently each progressive jamaat is tending to get isolated from the others. i am not saying to bring in another framework like the kothar, but there must be some other solutions to get us all integrated and interwoven to fight the powerful kothar.
also has anyone seriously considered, what after bro. asgharali engineer...?? is there an able second-tier leadership cadre ready? presently, without bro. engineer there is no other nationally and internationally recognised 'face' for the progressives. he is exceptional and doing his best, but besides him and after him, what else? ....
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Zulfiqar,
I agree with you, progressives do need to unite and present a united front. In India we have a central organisation (CBDBC)- Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community - representing all progressive jamaats. In the West though I've seen that the progressive jamaats are reluctant, for whatever reason, to become a part of CBDBC, and most of them are sceptical of Asghar Ali Engineer and his leadership.
I've talked to quite a few progressives - mostly from Africa - and the general feeling is to keep the Kothar out of the picture. They say, "why waste time cribbing and complaining about mullahs, let us do our own thing." This is playing into Kothar's hands, and essentially declaring breakup with the mainstream.
My take is, let us do our own thing but let us also not forget why we are reformists. We cannot ignore the basic issues that trouble our community. As a consequence of this "western" attitude what has happened is that the burden of challenging and fighting the Kothar has fallen squarely on Indian progressive, while their "western" brethren are busy doing their own thing - although, to be fair, they do chip in financially when the need arises.
What is lacking is a global reformist platform and agenda to bring everyone together. In my view CBDBC has the experience and authority to play this kind of a role. But getting a buy-in from "westerners" seems to be the biggest road block.
I agree with you, progressives do need to unite and present a united front. In India we have a central organisation (CBDBC)- Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community - representing all progressive jamaats. In the West though I've seen that the progressive jamaats are reluctant, for whatever reason, to become a part of CBDBC, and most of them are sceptical of Asghar Ali Engineer and his leadership.
I've talked to quite a few progressives - mostly from Africa - and the general feeling is to keep the Kothar out of the picture. They say, "why waste time cribbing and complaining about mullahs, let us do our own thing." This is playing into Kothar's hands, and essentially declaring breakup with the mainstream.
My take is, let us do our own thing but let us also not forget why we are reformists. We cannot ignore the basic issues that trouble our community. As a consequence of this "western" attitude what has happened is that the burden of challenging and fighting the Kothar has fallen squarely on Indian progressive, while their "western" brethren are busy doing their own thing - although, to be fair, they do chip in financially when the need arises.
What is lacking is a global reformist platform and agenda to bring everyone together. In my view CBDBC has the experience and authority to play this kind of a role. But getting a buy-in from "westerners" seems to be the biggest road block.
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Al-Zulfiqar:
I am sorry, I do not wish to judge, but you appear to be stereo-typing and perhaps being a racist when you say that :
"that maybe we should work on converting a few hundred blacks into our bohras, then whenever they are challenged by the bhaisaab or whoever, they'll flash a gun or knife and say, "here u motherf***er, take this u bloody ar**hole, wanna mess with me..??!!"
You seem to be insinuating that blacks resort to violence and swear expletives. I know it's a joke, but it's an uncalled for humour under the circumstances. In East Africa, there are a number of Bohra families who are of African or semi-African origin and my personal experience and understanding is that they are of impeccable morals, character and values - and may I add NOT of chronic Kotahri persuasions either.
I am sorry, I do not wish to judge, but you appear to be stereo-typing and perhaps being a racist when you say that :
"that maybe we should work on converting a few hundred blacks into our bohras, then whenever they are challenged by the bhaisaab or whoever, they'll flash a gun or knife and say, "here u motherf***er, take this u bloody ar**hole, wanna mess with me..??!!"
You seem to be insinuating that blacks resort to violence and swear expletives. I know it's a joke, but it's an uncalled for humour under the circumstances. In East Africa, there are a number of Bohra families who are of African or semi-African origin and my personal experience and understanding is that they are of impeccable morals, character and values - and may I add NOT of chronic Kotahri persuasions either.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Hamsafar Al Zulfiqar
Both of you are semi right. Hamsafar is right and this platform's logo is very clear, that we are to remain in the fold of dawoodi bohra community. For that there are some basics, that we shall have to agree to.
First do we recognize the institution of Dai, we have to ponder history to find the criterea for elevation of dai, what authority do dai has. When he calls himself Dai ul Mutlaq, what exactly is meant by it. Rhetoric aside, according to our doctorine, is the dai an institution or individual.
Secondly, how does he derive his power, or what are the sources of power.
What is, and should be a dai's role in worldly affairs. Should he indulge in obvious political bickering, and public relations, like Syedna Saheb does, getting a meeting with heads of the state at whatever cost.
What role should he play in our daily affair.
Should religion ( in this case dai) be permitted to interfere in our private lives.
In my opinion, as our whole communiyt and religion revolves around dai's personality. His status is being exploited by his family and kins. Therefore it becomes essential, that we define the Word Dai, according to historical characterization.
We will not be able to refom from within, if we are not to remain the part of community. Isolation and aloofness shall get us no where.
We shall have to muster courage and zeal to challange the status quo from within.
We can start chalanging amils, whenever and wherever he is involved conduct unbecoming, even if he is living lavish and extravagant life, we have to ask him in public, that where did he get the money.
I asked the previous amil of toronto, why did his wife drive jamat's car and then got into an accident, and the car had to be written off, he said nothing. But it was first time, someone asked him in public. If we start asking the right questions at the right time, it shall be very helpful in getting rid of the exploitation and manupulation that we suffer at their hands.
Next important thing is cominucation with the general masses, we shall have to go after the stories of embezzlements, and thievery and corruption, and make them obvious.
Challenging Amils is the core issue, it is through this institution, that they are keeping masses under control.
Every jamat right now maintains email list of all mumins, we should use this to inform the ordinary member of our community.
Admin can devise a mailing list, so that each piece of information reaches the maximum no of people, which will be helpful in bringing about the right affect.
Both of you are semi right. Hamsafar is right and this platform's logo is very clear, that we are to remain in the fold of dawoodi bohra community. For that there are some basics, that we shall have to agree to.
First do we recognize the institution of Dai, we have to ponder history to find the criterea for elevation of dai, what authority do dai has. When he calls himself Dai ul Mutlaq, what exactly is meant by it. Rhetoric aside, according to our doctorine, is the dai an institution or individual.
Secondly, how does he derive his power, or what are the sources of power.
What is, and should be a dai's role in worldly affairs. Should he indulge in obvious political bickering, and public relations, like Syedna Saheb does, getting a meeting with heads of the state at whatever cost.
What role should he play in our daily affair.
Should religion ( in this case dai) be permitted to interfere in our private lives.
In my opinion, as our whole communiyt and religion revolves around dai's personality. His status is being exploited by his family and kins. Therefore it becomes essential, that we define the Word Dai, according to historical characterization.
We will not be able to refom from within, if we are not to remain the part of community. Isolation and aloofness shall get us no where.
We shall have to muster courage and zeal to challange the status quo from within.
We can start chalanging amils, whenever and wherever he is involved conduct unbecoming, even if he is living lavish and extravagant life, we have to ask him in public, that where did he get the money.
I asked the previous amil of toronto, why did his wife drive jamat's car and then got into an accident, and the car had to be written off, he said nothing. But it was first time, someone asked him in public. If we start asking the right questions at the right time, it shall be very helpful in getting rid of the exploitation and manupulation that we suffer at their hands.
Next important thing is cominucation with the general masses, we shall have to go after the stories of embezzlements, and thievery and corruption, and make them obvious.
Challenging Amils is the core issue, it is through this institution, that they are keeping masses under control.
Every jamat right now maintains email list of all mumins, we should use this to inform the ordinary member of our community.
Admin can devise a mailing list, so that each piece of information reaches the maximum no of people, which will be helpful in bringing about the right affect.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Humsafar 1:
Humsafar 2:it is organising that may be the problem. Belief systems are part of how societies are organised. For there is great profit to be made from highly disciplined people who follow commands, behave in predictable manner
I agree with you, progressives do need to unite and present a united front. In India we have a central organisation (CBDBC)- Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community - representing all progressive jamaats.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Humsafar 1:
Humsafar 3:it is organising that may be the problem. Belief systems are part of how societies are organised. For there is great profit to be made from highly disciplined people who follow commands, behave in predictable manner
What is lacking is a global reformist platform and agenda to bring everyone together. In my view CBDBC has the experience and authority to play this kind of a role.
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
AB,
I thought you were more intelligent than this.
Organising to fight and challenge orthodoxy or a cult is not the same thing as organising orthodoxy or a cult itself. True, all rebellions in due time tend to congeal into dogmas and that's why there's a need for "eternal vigilance". Constant rebellion is the only true state of being.
I thought you were more intelligent than this.
Organising to fight and challenge orthodoxy or a cult is not the same thing as organising orthodoxy or a cult itself. True, all rebellions in due time tend to congeal into dogmas and that's why there's a need for "eternal vigilance". Constant rebellion is the only true state of being.
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
that's why there's a need for "eternal vigilance".
Having an army of apologists is a surefire way of nipping vigilance in the bud.
Having an army of apologists is a surefire way of nipping vigilance in the bud.
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Unfortunately, words alone, similarly like postings on this web site will not be sufficient to oppose the Kothar. We need more people like Zehra Cyclewalla to oppose the Kothar single mindedly. I am just perplexed at the cowardly way people in chithi talk against the Kothar and vent it to us. If only they would join the progressive movement, we would collectively make a difference.
Our group is expanding, slowly but surely. Progressives from East Africa have mostly moved and as such we can not expect many new more. On the other hand our growth has comes primarily from India.
The Indian contingent has brought many conributions to the table namely in forging a close liaison with other Indian reformists in U.S. The Indian Reformists are also well versed with Dr.Engineer's work and contribution. Unfortunately, the East Africans are more centered on relationships rather a broader vision of who can lead and serve our broader cause.
Our group is expanding, slowly but surely. Progressives from East Africa have mostly moved and as such we can not expect many new more. On the other hand our growth has comes primarily from India.
The Indian contingent has brought many conributions to the table namely in forging a close liaison with other Indian reformists in U.S. The Indian Reformists are also well versed with Dr.Engineer's work and contribution. Unfortunately, the East Africans are more centered on relationships rather a broader vision of who can lead and serve our broader cause.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Humsafar,
That’s what they all say; some organizing is better than other organizing syndrome is no different than “some pigs are more equal than othersâ€
That’s what they all say; some organizing is better than other organizing syndrome is no different than “some pigs are more equal than othersâ€
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
some organizing is better than other organizing syndrome is no different than “some pigs are more equal than othersâ€
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Absolutely ! Some political and economic models <u>are</u> better than others, and my preferences are well documented on this board. No contradiction there....
..and your point is ?
..and your point is ?
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Q) Which among the following statements is out of synch with the rest?
A Some organizing is better than other organizing syndrome is no different than “some pigs are more equal than othersâ€
A Some organizing is better than other organizing syndrome is no different than “some pigs are more equal than othersâ€
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Tahir,
It is perfectly OK if you don't read my posts, however, if you respond to them then please take the time to read them first.
One last time, I have always stated that some political and economical models are better than others; some pigs are more equal than others.
I was pointing out a contradiction in Humsafar's idealistic world view; my views have been consistent on the matter. I think in your rush to respond negatively to all my posts, you are missing the point again .
It is perfectly OK if you don't read my posts, however, if you respond to them then please take the time to read them first.
One last time, I have always stated that some political and economical models are better than others; some pigs are more equal than others.
I was pointing out a contradiction in Humsafar's idealistic world view; my views have been consistent on the matter. I think in your rush to respond negatively to all my posts, you are missing the point again .
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
AB,
There are two basic political activities. One, organising FOR power and control and two, organising AGAINST power and control. The former describes most of the current political, social and religious systems, and the latter all the challenges mounted to dismantle them. The problem with you is that you’ve have latched on to the word “organisingâ€
There are two basic political activities. One, organising FOR power and control and two, organising AGAINST power and control. The former describes most of the current political, social and religious systems, and the latter all the challenges mounted to dismantle them. The problem with you is that you’ve have latched on to the word “organisingâ€
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Humsafar,
You have peaked my curiosity once again; idealism does fascinate me as I used to be an idealist all through my early 20’s. Thankfully nothing you say makes me shudder as it is just one more opinion, so fire away.
The Progressive Bohra movement does have a defined purpose, so I will grant you that even though how one becomes part of an organized movement when at best they will clean up an office they don’t believe in is beyond me. However, you have never defined a political or economic system you support or believe is workable; therefore, exactly what would you organize against when you say “control and powerâ€
You have peaked my curiosity once again; idealism does fascinate me as I used to be an idealist all through my early 20’s. Thankfully nothing you say makes me shudder as it is just one more opinion, so fire away.
The Progressive Bohra movement does have a defined purpose, so I will grant you that even though how one becomes part of an organized movement when at best they will clean up an office they don’t believe in is beyond me. However, you have never defined a political or economic system you support or believe is workable; therefore, exactly what would you organize against when you say “control and powerâ€
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Correction: should read "clean up an office you don’t believe in "
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
AB,
I’m all too familiar with the tactics of your types. Anything that does not conform to your way of thinking is quickly branded as “idealismâ€
I’m all too familiar with the tactics of your types. Anything that does not conform to your way of thinking is quickly branded as “idealismâ€
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
This is going nowhere.
Your “typeâ€
Your “typeâ€
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
It was quite common for the baron-bishop combine of the medieval Europe to discredit the critics of feudal system as escapists/idealists.
The 'realists' of the time believed it to be the best possible system ! I am glad that the 'escapists' weren't deterred and renaissance finally happened.
The 'realists' of the time believed it to be the best possible system ! I am glad that the 'escapists' weren't deterred and renaissance finally happened.
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
how does one join the progressive movement? attend these gatherings and actively partici[pate?
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
[quote]Originally posted by Humsafar:
AB,
There are two basic political activities. One, organising FOR power and control and two, organising AGAINST power and control. The former describes most of the current political, social and religious systems, and the latter all the challenges mounted to dismantle them. The problem with you is that you’ve have latched on to the word “organisingâ€
AB,
There are two basic political activities. One, organising FOR power and control and two, organising AGAINST power and control. The former describes most of the current political, social and religious systems, and the latter all the challenges mounted to dismantle them. The problem with you is that you’ve have latched on to the word “organisingâ€
Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Happyto.......
You are most welcome.We are encouraging new members and have a fully paid centre and a close knit community.
You are most welcome.We are encouraging new members and have a fully paid centre and a close knit community.
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Re: An Event from "One Against All"
Is there a concept which explains of why we were born as a bohra?
is there any kind of past life or reincarnation which influences our present state explained by batin or haqiqa sabaks.i want to know what
it mean that there are 7 world cycles or prophetic
cycles,are we born in every of these cycles
through reincarnation or this is our only first
and last birth.
is there any kind of past life or reincarnation which influences our present state explained by batin or haqiqa sabaks.i want to know what
it mean that there are 7 world cycles or prophetic
cycles,are we born in every of these cycles
through reincarnation or this is our only first
and last birth.