By the way, here are some of the books that I recommend.
Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince by Rowling.
The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown.
They may be just as useless as Bertrand Russell for most, but with a lot more entertainment value.
Zahir Batin SABAK
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
By the way, here are some of the books that I recommend.
Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince by Rowling.
The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown.
They may be just as useless as Bertrand Russell for most, but with a lot more entertainment value.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Average Bohra,
I also said that I make a lot of money (without working too much for it). Now that doesn't make me a fool does it?
I also said that I make a lot of money (without working too much for it). Now that doesn't make me a fool does it?
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
And I said that I was below average in software programming. And as you've already felt it, an expert at kicking average butt.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
More about ayat 36:12
The reason why Imam is translated as book by notable translators is that they are trying to logically connect the last sentence of the ayat (And we have vested all things in Manifest Imam) with the previous sentence (And we write what they send before and their footprints that they left behind). Since God says he is writing, then it must mean that all the writing is in a book. They reduce God to a double entry book-keeper. However, Quran's ayats are not always taken to be logically connected one after the other. This is well established.
In fact, their translation of the earlier sentence also begs question. God will not write "what they send before and their footprints" after the dead are resurrected. That does not make sense.
This is a peculiar Arabic construction. First the future tense. "We will resurrect the dead." Then the present tense "We write what they present with what they left behind." But this second sentence must be interpreted as a continuation of the first sentence and hence it is not present tense but also future tense.
Thus the best sense is that "We will resurrect the dead and we will note (let them realize) that the situation they find themselves in (ma qaddamu) is the result of their deeds (aathaara-hum).
The reason why Imam is translated as book by notable translators is that they are trying to logically connect the last sentence of the ayat (And we have vested all things in Manifest Imam) with the previous sentence (And we write what they send before and their footprints that they left behind). Since God says he is writing, then it must mean that all the writing is in a book. They reduce God to a double entry book-keeper. However, Quran's ayats are not always taken to be logically connected one after the other. This is well established.
In fact, their translation of the earlier sentence also begs question. God will not write "what they send before and their footprints" after the dead are resurrected. That does not make sense.
This is a peculiar Arabic construction. First the future tense. "We will resurrect the dead." Then the present tense "We write what they present with what they left behind." But this second sentence must be interpreted as a continuation of the first sentence and hence it is not present tense but also future tense.
Thus the best sense is that "We will resurrect the dead and we will note (let them realize) that the situation they find themselves in (ma qaddamu) is the result of their deeds (aathaara-hum).
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
porus,
I apologize for the pointless chatter earlier.
Then you say Since God says he is writing, then it must mean that all the writing is in a book. They reduce God to a double entry book-keeper.
Bertrand Russell wrote everything he knew about Mathematical Philosophy in a book, I am sure you are not suggesting that he is a double entry book-keeper as well!!
God is writing down his knowledge just as Bertrand Russell wrote down his.
And I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I would be greatful if you could clarify.
I apologize for the pointless chatter earlier.
First, you are talking about 2 pieces of the same ayah so I am not sure what you are referring to when you talk about Quran's ayats are not always taken to be logically connected one after the other.The reason why Imam is translated as book by notable translators is that they are trying to logically connect the last sentence of the ayat (And we have vested all things in Manifest Imam) with the previous sentence (And we write what they send before and their footprints that they left behind). Since God says he is writing, then it must mean that all the writing is in a book. They reduce God to a double entry book-keeper. However, Quran's ayats are not always taken to be logically connected one after the other. This is well established.
Then you say Since God says he is writing, then it must mean that all the writing is in a book. They reduce God to a double entry book-keeper.
Bertrand Russell wrote everything he knew about Mathematical Philosophy in a book, I am sure you are not suggesting that he is a double entry book-keeper as well!!
God is writing down his knowledge just as Bertrand Russell wrote down his.
And I am not sure what point you are trying to make. I would be greatful if you could clarify.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Besides there are some other ayahs that talk about "written" and "writing". Although I am not sure that they are allegorical. I do not want to be amongst "those in whose hearts is perversity".
031.027
YUSUFALI: And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
PICKTHAL: And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
033.006
YUSUFALI: The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).
PICKTHAL: The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature).
SHAKIR: The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.
050.003
YUSUFALI: "What! When we die and become dust, (shall we live again?) That is a (sort of) return far (from our understanding)."
PICKTHAL: When we are dead and have become dust (shall we be brought back again)? That would be a far return!
SHAKIR: What! when we are dead and have become dust? That is afar (from probable) return.
050.004
YUSUFALI: We already know how much of them the earth takes away: With Us is a record guarding (the full account).
PICKTHAL: We know that which the earth taketh of them, and with Us is a recording Book.
SHAKIR: We know indeed what the earth diminishes of them, and with Us is a writing that preserves.
And most importantly
082.010
YUSUFALI: But verily over you (are appointed angels) to protect you,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! there are above you guardians,
SHAKIR: And most surely there are keepers over you
082.011
YUSUFALI: Kind and honourable,- Writing down (your deeds):
PICKTHAL: Generous and recording,
SHAKIR: Honorable recorders,
Again I would appreciate it if you could give us your interpretation.
031.027
YUSUFALI: And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing): for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
PICKTHAL: And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, (were ink), the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
033.006
YUSUFALI: The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).
PICKTHAL: The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves, and his wives are (as) their mothers. And the owners of kinship are closer one to another in the ordinance of Allah than (other) believers and the fugitives (who fled from Mecca), except that ye should do kindness to your friends. This is written in the Book (of nature).
SHAKIR: The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.
050.003
YUSUFALI: "What! When we die and become dust, (shall we live again?) That is a (sort of) return far (from our understanding)."
PICKTHAL: When we are dead and have become dust (shall we be brought back again)? That would be a far return!
SHAKIR: What! when we are dead and have become dust? That is afar (from probable) return.
050.004
YUSUFALI: We already know how much of them the earth takes away: With Us is a record guarding (the full account).
PICKTHAL: We know that which the earth taketh of them, and with Us is a recording Book.
SHAKIR: We know indeed what the earth diminishes of them, and with Us is a writing that preserves.
And most importantly
082.010
YUSUFALI: But verily over you (are appointed angels) to protect you,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! there are above you guardians,
SHAKIR: And most surely there are keepers over you
082.011
YUSUFALI: Kind and honourable,- Writing down (your deeds):
PICKTHAL: Generous and recording,
SHAKIR: Honorable recorders,
Again I would appreciate it if you could give us your interpretation.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Dear anajmi: I think you misunderstand the reason I post. I am not interested in kicking any ones butt, as you are so keen on doing. I simply express my thoughts, as they come to me. As a humanist I feel everyone should be completely free to hold any beliefs they want. If you want to believe in the literal interpretation of the Quran, good for you. If some bohra wants to consider the da'i as god, good for him too. As long as this is done in a manner that it does not break any laws and infringe on someone else's right to a similar freedom of belief, you should do what you want.
Further, although your story about 'hadgaris' is touching, most immigrants to this country have had difficult struggles in early life. In this case you are not unique. Also many bohras in the US are programmers (some below-average) and are well paid for their skills. So in this way too you are not unique. So I do not understand the point of your post.
Best of luck in your apparent life-quest to kick as many butts as you can. Continue feeling smug about your apparent butt-kicking. Have fun doing this!
Further, although your story about 'hadgaris' is touching, most immigrants to this country have had difficult struggles in early life. In this case you are not unique. Also many bohras in the US are programmers (some below-average) and are well paid for their skills. So in this way too you are not unique. So I do not understand the point of your post.
Best of luck in your apparent life-quest to kick as many butts as you can. Continue feeling smug about your apparent butt-kicking. Have fun doing this!
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Here is something else,
002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
This is not the last ayah of the quran to be revealed, still it refers to the revelation as a book/scripture which is complete. Maybe it is written down somewhere and then is being revealed to the prophet ayah by ayah.
085.021
YUSUFALI: Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
PICKTHAL: Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
SHAKIR: Nay! it is a glorious Quran,
085.022
YUSUFALI: (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!
PICKTHAL: On a guarded tablet.
SHAKIR: In a guarded tablet.
referring to the lawhin mahfuz of which the quran is a part.
Here is another interesting ayah that I found.
078.029
YUSUFALI: And all things have We preserved on record.
PICKTHAL: Everything have We recorded in a Book.
SHAKIR: And We have recorded everything in a book,
This is arabic - Wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu kitaban
002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
This is not the last ayah of the quran to be revealed, still it refers to the revelation as a book/scripture which is complete. Maybe it is written down somewhere and then is being revealed to the prophet ayah by ayah.
085.021
YUSUFALI: Day, this is a Glorious Qur'an,
PICKTHAL: Nay, but it is a glorious Qur'an.
SHAKIR: Nay! it is a glorious Quran,
085.022
YUSUFALI: (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved!
PICKTHAL: On a guarded tablet.
SHAKIR: In a guarded tablet.
referring to the lawhin mahfuz of which the quran is a part.
Here is another interesting ayah that I found.
078.029
YUSUFALI: And all things have We preserved on record.
PICKTHAL: Everything have We recorded in a Book.
SHAKIR: And We have recorded everything in a book,
This is arabic - Wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu kitaban
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Kalim,
Then you talk about the literal interpretation of the quran. For someone who doesn't believe in the spirituality of the quran, to talk about anything other than it's literal interpretation is nothing but creation of fitna.
Then you say that as a humanist you feel everyone should be completely free to hold any beliefs, which is more of your hypocrisy. If that is how you feel then why criticise the feelings of others. Remember in a previous thread you said muslims have thin skins because they can't stand criticism of their beliefs?
Here is a quote from you.
Doesn't look like you are a humanist after all.
And yes I do enjoy a good butt kicking.
That is precisely the problem with you. The point was $8.95 would be a waste for most of us on Bertrand Russell.So I do not understand the point of your post.
Then you talk about the literal interpretation of the quran. For someone who doesn't believe in the spirituality of the quran, to talk about anything other than it's literal interpretation is nothing but creation of fitna.
Then you say that as a humanist you feel everyone should be completely free to hold any beliefs, which is more of your hypocrisy. If that is how you feel then why criticise the feelings of others. Remember in a previous thread you said muslims have thin skins because they can't stand criticism of their beliefs?
Here is a quote from you.
And anotherAs porus said it may be time to reject all supernatural belief systems and start anew without primitive tribal boundaries. I have consistently said that secular humanism is the only solution to end this centuries old war of this religion against that.
So what happened to "free to hold any belief you want"?You are like an ostrich who has buried its head in the Bukhari sand: you don't seem to be aware of anything beyond him and his pals.
Doesn't look like you are a humanist after all.
And yes I do enjoy a good butt kicking.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Dear anajmi: There is no contradiction in having complete freedom of belief and trying to convince others to change their view point. Again, as long as the "other" does not feel any (justifiable) coercion, this is completely in line what a humanist will do. Otherwise we will all be trapped in a sort of nihilism.
Most bohras would not spend a dime, let alone $8.95, on Sunni hadith books or even accept one if given free. You should understand that I am not at all interested in the Sunni version of Islam. Although I do not like the dawat administration, as should be obvious to anyone who reads what I write, I believe in a more intellectual approach to religion, as most Ismailis do. Unfortunately for the bohras of today that such an approach has been subverted and replaced by a massive money making machine. I do not advocate buying Bukhari for all bohras and converting them to Sunni-ism. Further, this is not a Sunni discussion board. If you tell a bohra to take Yusuf Ali or Pickthal seriously he will just laugh at you.
Anyway, to each his own. You continue doing what you do best. I will also continue to point out absurdities where I find them and mentioning interesting books when I feel like. I do not expect anyone to rush to Amazon.com and purchase those books. As porus pointed out only a small fraction of humanity makes any attempt to look beyond their noses.
Finally, it will be a good to describe what you mean by "spirituality of the quran". Again, all literal Sunni explanations are rejected by the Ismailis. If you feel tawil is "nothing but creating fitna", good for you. Feel free to believe what you like. I could point out references where you would find what the Ismailis mean by "spirituality of the Quran", but not being written by medieval haidth-collectors you will not be interested.
Anyway, I am getting rather bored of this back and forth. Please do not expect me to reply to you any more on this subject.
Most bohras would not spend a dime, let alone $8.95, on Sunni hadith books or even accept one if given free. You should understand that I am not at all interested in the Sunni version of Islam. Although I do not like the dawat administration, as should be obvious to anyone who reads what I write, I believe in a more intellectual approach to religion, as most Ismailis do. Unfortunately for the bohras of today that such an approach has been subverted and replaced by a massive money making machine. I do not advocate buying Bukhari for all bohras and converting them to Sunni-ism. Further, this is not a Sunni discussion board. If you tell a bohra to take Yusuf Ali or Pickthal seriously he will just laugh at you.
Anyway, to each his own. You continue doing what you do best. I will also continue to point out absurdities where I find them and mentioning interesting books when I feel like. I do not expect anyone to rush to Amazon.com and purchase those books. As porus pointed out only a small fraction of humanity makes any attempt to look beyond their noses.
Finally, it will be a good to describe what you mean by "spirituality of the quran". Again, all literal Sunni explanations are rejected by the Ismailis. If you feel tawil is "nothing but creating fitna", good for you. Feel free to believe what you like. I could point out references where you would find what the Ismailis mean by "spirituality of the Quran", but not being written by medieval haidth-collectors you will not be interested.
Anyway, I am getting rather bored of this back and forth. Please do not expect me to reply to you any more on this subject.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Dear kalim: I am not sure if I have been using any coercion to convert you to whatever I believe in, have I? Well, then I am a humanist too. And what you believe in is bull crap. Believe in what I believe in or you will go to hell. Justifiable coercion or truth?Dear anajmi: There is no contradiction in having complete freedom of belief and trying to convince others to change their view point. Again, as long as the "other" does not feel any (justifiable) coercion, this is completely in line what a humanist will do. Otherwise we will all be trapped in a sort of nihilism.
You should also understand that unlike you I haven't asked anyone to go buy the sunni hadith. Which just goes to prove that I am a better humanist than you are.
As far as you linking "sunni-ism" with bukhari is concerned, that shows your lack of knowledge of both.
You believe in an intellectual approach to which religion? Have you been appointed by God - Bertrand Russell? Or do you think you are one? What do Ismailis do? Give up namza, roza and hajj because of intelligence? You aren't that ignorant, are you?
Well, I am the one more interested in the hereafter, and am preparing for it, you are the one unable to look beyond your nose.only a small fraction of humanity makes any attempt to look beyond their noses.
Here's the deal, I am not interested in what the Ismailis think about the spirituality of a book, most sections of which they have discarded. That might sound like an intellectual approach to you, to me it is blasphemy.
Medieval Hadith collectors. A phrase people like you seem to love. What would you prefer? Ismaili hadith collectors of the 21st century? Because of these medieval hadith collectors the name of Allah and his prophet is still alive in billions of hearts otherwise your intellectual Ismailis would've erased that too.
And I do not expect you to respond. Remember I am a humanist. I just expect you to learn.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
For those that are interested, unlike Bertrand Russell, a translation of Bukhari is available on the internet for free. You won't have to spend a dime.
Translation of Sahih Bukhari
Translation of Sahih Bukhari
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Kalim,
Here is the translation of the first surah of the quran according to sunni translators.
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
001.003
YUSUFALI: Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.004
YUSUFALI: Master of the Day of Judgment.
PICKTHAL: Master of the Day of Judgment,
SHAKIR: Master of the Day of Judgment.
001.005
YUSUFALI: Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
PICKTHAL: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
SHAKIR: Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
001.006
YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way,
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
SHAKIR: Keep us on the right path.
001.007
YUSUFALI: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
SHAKIR: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
Now according to you this interpretation has been rejected by the Ismailis. Can you give me the Ismaili interpretation of this surah?
Others on this board - watch and learn.
Here is the translation of the first surah of the quran according to sunni translators.
001.001
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.002
YUSUFALI: Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
PICKTHAL: Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
SHAKIR: All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
001.003
YUSUFALI: Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: The Beneficent, the Merciful.
001.004
YUSUFALI: Master of the Day of Judgment.
PICKTHAL: Master of the Day of Judgment,
SHAKIR: Master of the Day of Judgment.
001.005
YUSUFALI: Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
PICKTHAL: Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
SHAKIR: Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
001.006
YUSUFALI: Show us the straight way,
PICKTHAL: Show us the straight path,
SHAKIR: Keep us on the right path.
001.007
YUSUFALI: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
SHAKIR: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.
Now according to you this interpretation has been rejected by the Ismailis. Can you give me the Ismaili interpretation of this surah?
Others on this board - watch and learn.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
.
Is SHAKIR Sunni?
.
Is SHAKIR Sunni?
.
-
jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
I work about 16 to 20 hours a week, the rest of the time I waste
Kalim
Week consist of 168 hours. If you discount 20 hours, still 148 hours is left. I dont know what you do but I doubt you have that much time for this board. Please please take this cyber crank out of YPS mode.
Kalim
Week consist of 168 hours. If you discount 20 hours, still 148 hours is left. I dont know what you do but I doubt you have that much time for this board. Please please take this cyber crank out of YPS mode.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
A more literal translation of al-Fatiha:
In the name of Allah, the most bountiful, the most merciful
Praise be to Allah, lord of the worlds
The most bountiful, the most merciful
King of the Day of Judgment
You we serve, and from You we seek help
Guide us along the path of the righteous
Path of those whom You have favored with your bounties, not of those with whom You are angry and not of those who have erred.
*******
anajmi,
Do you think these verses are muhkamah or mutashabihah a la 3:7?
In the name of Allah, the most bountiful, the most merciful
Praise be to Allah, lord of the worlds
The most bountiful, the most merciful
King of the Day of Judgment
You we serve, and from You we seek help
Guide us along the path of the righteous
Path of those whom You have favored with your bounties, not of those with whom You are angry and not of those who have erred.
*******
anajmi,
Do you think these verses are muhkamah or mutashabihah a la 3:7?
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
porus,
I have no idea. They sound straight forward enough to me. And I am not looking to figure out if they are one type or the other. Fortunately, I am not from amongst those that have perversity in their hearts.
However, if I had read Bertrand Russell then this is how I would've interpreted them. Ofcourse since you interpretation is literal, my interpretation is good enough.
In the name of Allah, the most bountiful, the most merciful
'Int the name of' has 11 characters and as we all know 'Allah' is one so 11 and one is 12 which refers to the 12 Imams.
'the most' has seven characters which refers to the seven pillars of the shias.
'bountiful' refers to the Dai because it has 9 characters and the Dai is in his 90s.
'merciful' refers to Aga Khan because it has eight characters in it. 'Aga Khan' has seven characters and he is the one and only living Imam that is not hidden.
I will wait for you to understand the above before I continue.
No wonder jamanpasand has no idea what we are talking about.
kalim,
I am really looking forward to the Ismaili interpretation of this surah.
porus,
If you have access to the Ismaili interpretation, please be kind enough to post it.
I have no idea. They sound straight forward enough to me. And I am not looking to figure out if they are one type or the other. Fortunately, I am not from amongst those that have perversity in their hearts.
However, if I had read Bertrand Russell then this is how I would've interpreted them. Ofcourse since you interpretation is literal, my interpretation is good enough.
In the name of Allah, the most bountiful, the most merciful
'Int the name of' has 11 characters and as we all know 'Allah' is one so 11 and one is 12 which refers to the 12 Imams.
'the most' has seven characters which refers to the seven pillars of the shias.
'bountiful' refers to the Dai because it has 9 characters and the Dai is in his 90s.
'merciful' refers to Aga Khan because it has eight characters in it. 'Aga Khan' has seven characters and he is the one and only living Imam that is not hidden.
I will wait for you to understand the above before I continue.
No wonder jamanpasand has no idea what we are talking about.
kalim,
I am really looking forward to the Ismaili interpretation of this surah.
porus,
If you have access to the Ismaili interpretation, please be kind enough to post it.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
br. Muslim First,
I have no idea. Isn't he?Is SHAKIR Sunni?
-
jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
'Int the name of' has 11 characters and as we all know 'Allah' is one so 11 and one is 12 which refers to the 12 Imams
Count again it is 12 !!! Altogether will be 13.
Should be way below the average below programmer!!
Count again it is 12 !!! Altogether will be 13.
Should be way below the average below programmer!!
-
jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
13 will make
1 a
2 b
3 u
4 b
5 a
6 k
7 e
8 r
9 &
10 o
11 m
12 e
13 r
This is your correct direction !!!!!!
1 a
2 b
3 u
4 b
5 a
6 k
7 e
8 r
9 &
10 o
11 m
12 e
13 r
This is your correct direction !!!!!!
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
anajmi,
I hope you are not poking fun at Bertrand Russell, only at those who have read his work!
Russell has had more impact on the world and you than you realize. His "Principia Mathematica" laid the foundation of modern mathematics, to which we owe development of numerical computational models. These are the basis of computer programming of which you say you are a practitioner. Both Alan Turing, computation theorist and Von Neumann, inventor of the modern computer, have stated that they owe considerable debt to Russell.
You say you have no perversity in your heart. But that is precisely the quality which has destroyed this thread.
You need not believe in Ismaili or Shia taawil to be able to appreciate its superstructure. Taawil is the basis of great Islamic philosophies of the middle ages. Kalim has mentioned Ghazali. Iqbal is another. They were Sunnis.
I think you border on bigotry when you attack others by incessantly posting translations of ayats from Quran. Many of us who read Quran find that even simple ayats like Bismillah are not easy to understand or beg questions. But of course, you know it all a la Wahhabi.
I hope you are not poking fun at Bertrand Russell, only at those who have read his work!
Russell has had more impact on the world and you than you realize. His "Principia Mathematica" laid the foundation of modern mathematics, to which we owe development of numerical computational models. These are the basis of computer programming of which you say you are a practitioner. Both Alan Turing, computation theorist and Von Neumann, inventor of the modern computer, have stated that they owe considerable debt to Russell.
You say you have no perversity in your heart. But that is precisely the quality which has destroyed this thread.
You need not believe in Ismaili or Shia taawil to be able to appreciate its superstructure. Taawil is the basis of great Islamic philosophies of the middle ages. Kalim has mentioned Ghazali. Iqbal is another. They were Sunnis.
I think you border on bigotry when you attack others by incessantly posting translations of ayats from Quran. Many of us who read Quran find that even simple ayats like Bismillah are not easy to understand or beg questions. But of course, you know it all a la Wahhabi.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
And these well known translations are suspect.
An example from Yusufali in al-Fatiha:
"rabbil aalamin", he traslates as "Cherisher and sustainer of the worlds".
While Rab may cherish and sustain the worlds, rab neither translates to cherisher nor does it translate to sustainer. It simply tranlates to 'lord'.
An example from Yusufali in al-Fatiha:
"rabbil aalamin", he traslates as "Cherisher and sustainer of the worlds".
While Rab may cherish and sustain the worlds, rab neither translates to cherisher nor does it translate to sustainer. It simply tranlates to 'lord'.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
porus,
I thought non faith based people were supposed to have thick skins. Just because I make fun of Bertrand Russell or those who read him doesn't mean that what he has done will become undone will it?
Is there a reason why simple ayahs of the quran are difficult for people like you to understand? Are you that dumb? or do you think you are so smart that Bismillah has to have hidden meanings and only you can figure it out?
By the way - "lord" is just your translation of "rab".
According to wikipedia - lord means a "male who has power and authority".
Do you want me to go into further details about what a lord means?
Let me clarify one thing, you are not as smart as you think and I am not as dumb as you think.
jamanpasand,
That was a test to see if you can count. You passed.
I thought non faith based people were supposed to have thick skins. Just because I make fun of Bertrand Russell or those who read him doesn't mean that what he has done will become undone will it?
Is there a reason why simple ayahs of the quran are difficult for people like you to understand? Are you that dumb? or do you think you are so smart that Bismillah has to have hidden meanings and only you can figure it out?
By the way - "lord" is just your translation of "rab".
According to wikipedia - lord means a "male who has power and authority".
Do you want me to go into further details about what a lord means?
Let me clarify one thing, you are not as smart as you think and I am not as dumb as you think.
jamanpasand,
That was a test to see if you can count. You passed.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
porus,
One other thing, I would appreciate it if you could comment on my posts which were a reply to your posts about written and writing on page 1 of this thread about verse 36:12.
One other thing, I would appreciate it if you could comment on my posts which were a reply to your posts about written and writing on page 1 of this thread about verse 36:12.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
Here is another thing which I do not understand. You claim that every ayah of the quran is this difficult to understand and then at the same time you also claim that the quran is nothing but the work of a medieval tribesman without the help of anything resembling a God.
So which is it? Or was the medievel tribesman just so smart that people even after 14 centuries have been unable to understand his fictional work? How would you compare him to some like..say.. Bertrand Russell?
So which is it? Or was the medievel tribesman just so smart that people even after 14 centuries have been unable to understand his fictional work? How would you compare him to some like..say.. Bertrand Russell?
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
jamanpasand: I am a bit confused with your post. If you think I said those things about the 10 hour week, you are mistaken. Our friend anajmi has said it. I just wanted to clarify this. Also please explain a bit more clearly so I can understand what you mean. I am not familiar with all these funny acronyms.
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
for anajmi
i do admire you as you have found your path but others like me who lurk on this board are still striving for that faith. i do envy you as are content but you should leave others to seek knowledge in their own way. it may be not what you believe but that is the way of life. most of all i enjoy porus as he has explored many paths which i could only dream about. this post is not criticism but hope to get more tutorials.
i do admire you as you have found your path but others like me who lurk on this board are still striving for that faith. i do envy you as are content but you should leave others to seek knowledge in their own way. it may be not what you believe but that is the way of life. most of all i enjoy porus as he has explored many paths which i could only dream about. this post is not criticism but hope to get more tutorials.
-
jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
kalim
the quoted reference was not from you but from your friend.
i was just wondering whether you will have time to compete with him in number of posts.
YPS stands for yousufali,pickthal,shakir.
Their translations are repeated almost in every second post by your friend. I was seeking help to bring your friend out from this mental stage.
May be some free sites from where he can bring some new references.
Can you help ? Please Please
the quoted reference was not from you but from your friend.
i was just wondering whether you will have time to compete with him in number of posts.
YPS stands for yousufali,pickthal,shakir.
Their translations are repeated almost in every second post by your friend. I was seeking help to bring your friend out from this mental stage.
May be some free sites from where he can bring some new references.
Can you help ? Please Please
Re: Zahir Batin SABAK
dear marabu,
Here is a quote from kalim,
And I enjoy reading porus too, that is why I am asking him to reply to my posts.
Here is a quote from kalim,
If you feel that I have been using any (justifiable) coercion to convert you then I apologize, however I do wish to convince you to change your beliefs, now that I know that is what a humanist is supposed to do.There is no contradiction in having complete freedom of belief and trying to convince others to change their view point. Again, as long as the "other" does not feel any (justifiable) coercion, this is completely in line what a humanist will do. Otherwise we will all be trapped in a sort of nihilism.
And I enjoy reading porus too, that is why I am asking him to reply to my posts.