Unfair Admin rules

[Africawala0000]

MF,

Read Sura 3:169: Think not of those who are slain God's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the Presence of their Lord.

Ali A.S. died protecting Islam. He is the only one who was born in a Mosque and died in a Mosque!
Mashallah. And you call this man who defended Islam till his last breath, a dead man. Shame on you, brother. You have a lot to learn about Islam!

Read also, Bukhari 3714: Al-Miswar bin Makhrama narrated: Allah's Apostle PBUH said: "Fatimah is a part of me, and he who makes her angry makes me angry.

Now read 3713: Abu Bakar added: Look at Muhammad PBUH, through his family (i.e. if you are not good to his family you are not good to himPBUH.

3751: Ubn Umar narrated: Abu Bakr used to say: Please Muhammad by doing good to his family.

How soon these people forget about the Love and anger of Prophet right after his death.

They went and invaded Ali A.S.'s house while Ali was not home. They did not hesitate to breakdown the door behind which Hazarat Bibi Fatima A.S. was and caused her to lose her child. There are a lot of other ahadith and I shall quote them as I go along.

Allah says, they say they believe but they believe not. So befitting to the above incidence.

Do you believe that Umar and Abu Bakar did not earn the Prophet's wrath? And you followed Umar's instruction to amend the Adhan that the Prophet had prescribed and you call yourselves Muslims and others non-Muslims? He even changed the prescriptions of Qur'an and I proved it to you. And you follow those too and then you have the audacity to call others non-Muslims and fitnati. Brother, look at the fire under your own feet before you go to put out the fire under our feet.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by anajmi:
pardesi,

My question was pretty simple. Let me ask it again.

Do Ismailis perform rituals as prescribed by the prophet? Do you pray salaah as prescribed by the prophet?

We can go into the remainder of your training after that.
Also please do not cut and paste from other web sited. Give me your take on it.

Let me answer to you in the only manner that you understand. Which rituals of the Holy Prophet do you follow to the dot.

Let me back track a little bit. I was interested in learning about the sawabs and significance of prayers, zakaat, hajj, sawm, jihad etc. I also asked you and everyone else to leave our differences (religious colors) aside and discuss something which is of common interest to everyone so others can join in and everyone can learn a thing or two.

Since you do not know why we were enjoined with prayers, zakaat, etc. you tried to be smart by asking me a question, how Ismailis do their prayers. The question was not how, but WHY? Does this mean you do not know why muslims do the rituals the way they do? Atleast Omabharti came up clean and posted his/her honest opinion. It made sense to me. It was a good start. It may be okay for you to blindly do the actions and still fetch some sawab but wouldn't you be interested to know the significance (I wish I could come up with a better word than significance that might get you more interested). Just because you do not know does not mean that it has never been talked about or explained by the Ulema.

May be I was knocking at the wrong door. You correctly admitted in a previous post that you are not an expert of religion. May be I should have asked MF or someone with some knowledge. My intention was not to mock you for your answer, whatever that would have been. So far you have not answered a single question on religion or rituals I asked you ever since we first locked horns in Wajeebat room. All you could do was contradict yourself time and time again, yet I stayed with the subject.

It is not a secret how Ismailis offer their Salaat. Allah will only ask Ismailis for it and my Imam would be there to answer for me. Whatever the punishment, I will accept and would not just say I had no one to guide me. I believe that would be your answer when asked for every mischief and wrongdoing you might have done in THIS life. You do believe there is an afterlife, don’t you? I remember you had said that for Muslims, its only one shot, here in this world and that would be the end of it. Does that mean Heaven and Hell do not exist. And if they do, do you really think there is a physical Jannat and Dauzakh. God, why am I asking you all these questions, you don’t know anything anyway.

You had said previously:

" And I have to accept the fact that in some cases the majority may be wrong, however, if the intent was right, then inshaallah, Allah is the best of judges."

Is it not the intention that Allah looks for? Or it applies only to your way of praying.
What do you do that is exactly like the Prophet used to do? Prophet used to walk to the Masjid, do you? He used to ride camel, do you? He never lied, did you never? He never owned anything in his life, yet you do. How many Hajj and Umrah the Holy Prophet performed in his life? Oh and my favorite, he did not deal in interest but YOU do. What about staying up the whole night in prayers, do you follow that? That would not count as prayers, would they? Please don’t get me started because the list would be pages long. Like MF said “We are all hiding behind a curtainâ€

[Amicus Mellitus]

Mr Pardesi:

I can not resist showig my astonishment on your statement that:
Allah will only ask Ismailis for it and <u>my Imam </u>would be there to <u>answer for me.</u>

This is a remarkable statement.
Do you <u>ACTUALLY</u> read Quran Mr Pardesi? Honest to God when was the last time you read the following Ayah?

002.048 And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped

[Africawala0000]

AM:

I can not resist showig my astonishment on your statement that:
Allah will only ask Ismailis for it and my Imam would be there to answer for me.

This is a remarkable statement.
Do you ACTUALLY read Quran Mr Pardesi? Honest to God when was the last time you read the following Ayah?

002.048 And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped

Have you read the Qur'an? When was the last time you did?

Now read: XVII 71: One day we shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: Those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure) And they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Read Pooya Ali's translation. Imam is leader and don't tell me here it is referred to a book, because book is Kitab. Only you guys have taken Imam to mean a book.

The fact that the Prophet said that whosoever dies without knowing the Imam of the time will die a death of Jahaliya, holds true here.

As for Pervert: Answer your own questions because nothing gets into your thick skull. I am not going to waste my time with you.You have no answers for us - ignoramus! You have been pushed in a corner so you keep repeating yourself.

When was the last time you took your bath? Last Friday? Phew you stinker.

Proud African.

[Amicus Mellitus]

I do not talk to bush men

[anajmi]

pardesi,

Let me try one more time - Do Ismailis perform rituals as prescribed by the prophet? Do you pray salaah as prescribed by the prophet?

[anajmi]

Now read: XVII 71: One day we shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: Those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure) And they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Read this ayah carefully. First Allah says all humans will be called with their Imams. And then he says their records will be given to them in their right hand if good.

To me it is obvious that Imam over here means their record. All human beings will be called with their records. If the record is given to them in their right hands all is good. This is also in complete agreement with the ayah that Amicus quoted.

002.048 And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped

[anajmi]

Here are some other ayahs which say the same thing

002.123
YUSUFALI: Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).
PICKTHAL: And guard (yourselves) against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will compensation be accepted from it, nor will intercession be of use to it; nor will they be helped.
SHAKIR: And be on your guard against a day when no soul shall avail another in the least neither shall any compensation be accepted from it, nor shall intercession profit it, nor shall they be helped.

036.023
YUSUFALI: "Shall I take (other) gods besides Him? If (Allah) Most Gracious should intend some adversity for me, of no use whatever will be their intercession for me, nor can they deliver me.
PICKTHAL: Shall I take (other) gods in place of Him when, if the Beneficent should wish me any harm, their intercession will avail me naught, nor can they save?
SHAKIR: What! shall I take besides Him gods whose intercession, If the Beneficent Allah should desire to afflict me with a harm, shall not avail me aught, nor shall they be able to deliver me?

043.086
YUSUFALI: And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him).
PICKTHAL: And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly.
SHAKIR: And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him).

099.006
YUSUFALI: On that Day will men proceed in companies sorted out, to be shown the deeds that they (had done).
PICKTHAL: That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.
SHAKIR: On that day men shall come forth in sundry bodies that they may be shown their works.

099.007
YUSUFALI: Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,
SHAKIR: So. he who has done an atom's weight of good shall see it

099.008
YUSUFALI: And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.
PICKTHAL: And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.
SHAKIR: And he who has done an atom's weight of evil shall see it.

053.038
YUSUFALI: Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;
PICKTHAL: That no laden one shall bear another's load,
SHAKIR: That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-

039.007
YUSUFALI: If ye reject (Allah), Truly Allah hath no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful, He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end, to your Lord is your Return, when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). for He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.
PICKTHAL: If ye are thankless, yet Allah is Independent of you, though He is not pleased with thanklessness for His bondmen; and if ye are thankful He is pleased therewith for you. No laden soul will bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return; and He will tell you what ye used to do. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).
SHAKIR: If you are ungrateful, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient above all need of you; and He does not like ungratefulness in His servants; and if you are grateful, He likes it in you; and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, then will He inform you of what you did; surely He is Cognizant of what is in the breasts.

[anajmi]

pardesi,

You asked whether heaven and hell are physical, there by implying that you do not think they are.

075.003
YUSUFALI: Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
PICKTHAL: Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?
SHAKIR: Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?

075.004
YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

030.050
YUSUFALI: Then contemplate (O man!) the memorials of Allah's Mercy!- how He gives life to the earth after its death: verily the same will give life to the men who are dead: for He has power over all things.
PICKTHAL: Look, therefore, at the prints of Allah's mercy (in creation): how He quickeneth the earth after her death. Lo! He verily is the Quickener of the Dead, and He is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: Look then at the signs of Allah's mercy, how He gives life to the earth after its death, most surely He will raise the dead to life; and He has power over all things.

071.017
YUSUFALI: "'And Allah has produced you from the earth growing (gradually),
PICKTHAL: And Allah hath caused you to grow as a growth from the earth,
SHAKIR: And Allah has made you grow out of the earth as a growth:

071.018
YUSUFALI: "'And in the End He will return you into the (earth), and raise you forth (again at the Resurrection)?
PICKTHAL: And afterward He maketh you return thereto, and He will bring you forth again, a (new) forthbringing.
SHAKIR: Then He returns you to it, then will He bring you forth a (new) bringing forth:

This proves that the physical form of the human body is going to be resurrected. Now if there wasn't going to be a physical heaven and hell, what is the point?

[Africawala0000]

AM:

I do not talk to bush men

Yet you keep coming back. Does that mean we are not bush men when you come back?

Believe me the feeling is mutual. Hope you keep quiet now.

[Africawala0000]

Anajmi,

Here is how Pooya Ali translates 17:71

The book mentioned here is the record of deeds every individual will carry with him or her on the day of judgement. It will be visible to all. All human beings will appear with the guides (imams) they followed in their lives in the world. to give account of their deeds and faith. Blessed are they who follow the true guides (imams) of the Ahl ul Bayt, chosen by Allah and appointed by the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet said:

"Verily I am the Imam among you. After me, Ali will be your Imam. After him, his sons in his progeny will be your Imams. Whosoever remains attached with them shall be saved and shall obtain salvation. Those who disassociate themselves from them shall go astray and will certainly be lost."

So, either follow the thoroughly purified (Ahzab:33) Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt who are the fountain-head of guidance, mercy and wisdom, so that you go before your Lord on the day of judgement with them as your Imams, or run after those who themselves were in need of guidance.

"Is then He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed, or he who cannot find the right path unless he is guided? What ails you? How (ill) you judge?" (Yunus: 35)

The above verse is also applicable to those whom He chose as guides to preserve and show His right path to mankind in every age and clime.

"Is he who walks grovelling upon his face more rightly guided or he who walks uprightly on the right path?" (Mulk: 22)

Please refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 2 and 124 to understand the following verse and know who are the true Imams chosen and appointed by Allah.

"We have gathered all things in a manifest Imam " (Ya Sin: 12)

"Verily we have shown man the right way. Let him (now) be grateful (follow the right way) or be ungrateful (reject it)." (Dahr: 3).

Admin, you may close this subject at your discretion. I have said what I wanted to say. Thanks for the opportunity.

[anajmi]

African,

The rule of translation is that the translation of one ayah should not contradict the translation of another ayah.

What is Pooya Ali's translation/interpretation of the ayah quoted by Amicus and myself?

The other thing I wanted to touch upon was when you mentioned about lengthening and shortening of prayers as changing prayers.

Let me explain - when one decides to recite the entire surah baqara in a one rakah of namaz, that would be lengthening the prayer, however if one decides to recite Naas or Falak or Kawthar, that would be shortening the prayer.

That is what the prophet used to do all the time. Sometime he would recite a long surah and sometimes a short one.

Hence his advise to shorten prayers for elderly. You need to go back to the basics.

As far as changing of the time is concerned for prayers due to heat, during the time of the prophet it was ok, but these days most mosques alhumdulillah have a shade and fans if not an air conditioner.

Most of the points mentioned by you and pardesi and just like this. Just a little bit of effort on your part and you will realize how stupid you guys have been.

[anajmi]

Admin, admin, sshhhh, please, close this thread before the Ismailis get a chance to reply, please hurry up... sshhhh.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Amecus Mellitus:

“Mr Pardesi:

I can not resist showig my astonishment on your statement that:
Allah will only ask Ismailis for it and my Imam would be there to answer for me.

This is a remarkable statement.
Do you ACTUALLY read Quran Mr Pardesi? Honest to God when was the last time you read the following Ayah?

002.048 And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helpedâ€

[pardesi]

One last thing before I sign off Malicious. I normally dont post Quranic Ayats here but I will make an exception just this time.

The Ayat you quoted earlier

[Shakir 2:48] And be on your guard against a day when one soul shall not avail another in the least, neither shall intercession on its behalf be accepted, nor shall any compensation be taken from it, nor shall they be helped.
[Yusufali 2:48] Then guard yourselves against a day when one soul shall not avail another nor shall intercession be accepted for her, nor shall compensation be taken from her, nor shall anyone be helped (from outside).
[Pickthal 2:48] And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped.

And now read this.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:48]

On the day of resurrection absolute justice will prevail. The chosen people also will be judged in view of their actions.

If "nor shall intercession be accepted" is not understood by knowing its particular use in this verse, and by making reference to other verses of the Quran in this connection, every ordinary reader comes to a wrong conclusion.

Allah has prescribed for Himself mercy (An-am: 12 and 54), and says in verse 87 of Yusuf that verily, none despairs of Allah's mercy save disbelieving people. The just Allah is also the merciful Lord. His mercy conditions His justice.

The verses, which make certain that in the divine scheme of reward and punishment the "institution" of intercession has been firmly established, are quoted below:

Who can intercede with Him, except by His permission.

(BAQARAH: 255)

They shall have no power of intercession, save he who has taken a promise from the merciful.

(MARYAM: 87)

On that day no intercession avails, save (that of) him to whom the merciful has given permission and whose word He accepts.

(TAHA: 109)

There is no intercessor save after His permission;

(YUNUS: 3)

There are several such verses in the Quran which prove untrue the theory of non-availability of intercession propagated by a misguided school of thought among the Muslims.

The Holy Prophet and the thoroughly purified Imams (Ahzab: 33) are those upon whom Allah has bestowed (an-amta alayhim - Fatihah :7) the power of intercession.

The word shafa (to pair or to join a thing to its like) is the root of shafa-at, which means intercession. It can be favourable or unfavourable, as per verse 85 of al Nisa. It signifies the loving attachment of a person with his ideal or model whom he follows. On the day of judgement the wicked and the virtuous will be separated, therefore, it will be a day of pairing of the souls according to their affinity and attachment in this world - "remember the day when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader)", says verse 71 of Bani Israil.

The inadmissibility of intercession here is in the case of those who not only do not avoid evil but make a choice of wickedness as their mode of life; which is the direct result of their wilful rejection of the path of the thoroughly purified, adherence to whose guidance would have saved them from eternal damnation.

It is this despair of the non-availability of Allah's mercy which had compelled the founders of the Christian Church to invent the doctrine of atonement - God, in order to pardon man, in spite of His justice, incarnated Himself into the form a begotten son, called Jesus, and then got Himself killed so that the price of the sins of man be paid. This unreasonable idea of redemption gives man licence to sin as and when he likes.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The word yawm, in this verse, refers to the life of the hereafter which includes the term of life beginning with the departure of the soul till the final resurrection. In some verses of the Quran it is said that every human being will undergo a trial on the day of final resurrection as an individual, whereas some other verses suggest groups of people, along with their leaders, will come before the Lord. According to some verses the wicked will be condemned without being permitted to put forward their lame excuses, whereas other state that some of the wicked will accuse their leaders for misleading them. There is no contradiction. In fact there are several varying stages in the intermediary period as well as in the final phase. The examination of every soul according to its individual deeds may differ from the accountability of its social behaviour. A man may be condemned as an individual but on account of his attachment to the divinely chosen wasilah (support and influence), he may be redeemed. The Quran, in many places, asserts the effectiveness of intercession, therefore, the negation here either refers to a particular condition or to the fact that no intercession offered by a soul on its own behalf shall be accepted. Only those who have been authorised by Allah shall have the right to intercede.

The wavering between belief and disbelief by the Bani Israil is also visible among the followers of other prophets. All the messengers of Allah patiently put up with this kind of attitude in order to check desertion in the early stages of the propagation of the faith. Drift from the truth and reversion to falsehood was discouraged, and the doors of repentance were kept open, but only a few took advantage of the leniency.

Like I said I am still in the learning process.

[anajmi]

pardesi,

I do not deny the concept of intercession. The prophet will intercede on behalf of all muslims. But consider this, if the prophet is going to intercede for all muslims, why will we need the intercession of your Imam?

Then, consider this, if let us say the intercession of the prophet is not accepted, what makes you think that the intercession of your Imam will be accepted instead, when it has been proven beyond all doubt that your Imam does nothing like the prophet used to? He does not pray like the prophet, he does not fast like the prophet, he does not do hajj and he does not know the quran.

As your Imam would say - looks like you are betting on the wrong horse. -

[Amicus Mellitus]

Pardesi if you read my post I addressed you as Mr Pardesi and look at you. Were you trying to be brave or what? After all this is only a discussion forum.
Be my guest, by all means have a heart attack...that will be fine with me

You are so fond of writing long posts and that too with so much venom.

I thought you were a notch better than the bushman from Africa but I can see you are no better. My decision of not talking to the likes of you stands confirmed.

Now Get this from me and then GET LOST for Good

Since Agha Khaniz, among the other many bad things, do not pray as prescibed, do not perform wudhu, do not have a Masjid, do not pay Zakah, do not go for Hajj, do not fast they are NOT MUSLIMS, simple as that, now go take a walk. One reason I did not want to talk to the African was my simple conclusion that he is a non muslim and there is no point in discussing with him what the Quran says. I can see you both have a very bad and smelly mouth

<c>Now get lost for good,
<c>go read your ginans leave the Quran for Muslims

[Amicus Mellitus]

Pardesi if you read my post I addressed you as Mr Pardesi and look at you. Were you trying to be brave or what? After all this is only a discussion forum.
Be my guest, by all means have a heart attack...that will be fine with me

You are so fond of writing long posts and that too with so much venom.

I thought you were a notch better than the bushman from Africa but I can see you are no better. My decision of not talking to the likes of you stands confirmed.

Now Get this from me and then GET LOST for Good

Since Agha Khaniz, among the other many bad things, do not pray as prescibed, do not perform wudhu, do not have a Masjid, do not pay Zakah, do not go for Hajj, do not fast they are NOT MUSLIMS, simple as that, now go take a walk. One reason I did not want to talk to the African was my simple conclusion that he is a non muslim and there is no point in discussing with him what the Quran says. I can see you both have a very bad and smelly mouth

<c>Now get lost for good,
<c>go read your ginans leave the Quran for Muslims

[pardesi]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amicus Mellitus:
[QB]

Quran says

Wa Iza Khatabhumul Jahiloona Qaloo Salama

and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!"

AND

Wa Iza Marroo Bih Laghve Marroo Krama

and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honourable (avoidance);

Peace my brother.

[pardesi]

And my apologies for calling you what I did. I was wrong. Beg your pardon.

[Africawala0000]

AM

AM

Now get lost for good,
go read your ginans leave the Quran for Muslims

Which Muslims? The Ones who followed the Ahle Bayt as commanded by the Prophet, or the ones who followed Umar and changed the Adhans and inscriptions within the Prophet's passing of 13 years. Which ones, the ones who love the Ahle Bayt and earn the love of the Prophet or the ones who hurt Fatima and earned hers and Prophet's anger?

Which ones, the ones who consider the Prophet and Ali a.s. alive or the ones who consider them dead?
And still recite the Shahada saying Mohammed is the Messenger of God instead of Saying Mohammed was the messenger of God.

You do not keep your word, do you? Just the way Umar and Abu Bakar didn't and you came back to talk to us Bush men!

Yes, Ginans are our Gems and nothing like what you hear from your pulpits. Ginans help us understand the Qur'an better, not like you, read like a parrot and understand nothing.

Peace brother!

[hafeez]

Originally posted by Amicus Mellitus:
Pardesi if you read my post I addressed you as Mr Pardesi and look at you. Were you trying to be brave or what? After all this is only a discussion forum.
Be my guest, by all means have a heart attack...that will be fine with me

You are so fond of writing long posts and that too with so much venom.

I thought you were a notch better than the bushman from Africa but I can see you are no better. My decision of not talking to the likes of you stands confirmed.

Now Get this from me and then GET LOST for Good

Since Agha Khaniz, among the other many bad things, do not pray as prescibed, do not perform wudhu, do not have a Masjid, do not pay Zakah, do not go for Hajj, do not fast they are NOT MUSLIMS, simple as that, now go take a walk. One reason I did not want to talk to the African was my simple conclusion that he is a non muslim and there is no point in discussing with him what the Quran says. I can see you both have a very bad and smelly mouth

<c>Now get lost for good,
<c>go read your ginans leave the Quran for Muslims

[hafeez]

Originally posted by Amicus Mellitus:
[qb]Pardesi if you read my post I addressed you as Mr Pardesi and look at you. Were you trying to be brave or what? After all this is only a discussion forum.
Be my guest, by all means have a heart attack...that will be fine with me

You are so fond of writing long posts and that too with so much venom.

I thought you were a notch better than the bushman from Africa but I can see you are no better. My decision of not talking to the likes of you stands confirmed.

Now Get this from me and then GET LOST for Good

Since Agha Khaniz, among the other many bad things, do not pray as prescibed, do not perform wudhu, do not have a Masjid, do not pay Zakah, do not go for Hajj, do not fast they are NOT MUSLIMS, simple as that, now go take a walk. One reason I did not want to talk to the African was my simple conclusion that he is a non muslim and there is no point in discussing with him what the Quran says. I can see you both have a very bad and smelly mouth

<c>Now get lost for good,
<c>go read your ginans leave the Quran for Muslims

Spoken like a true "lowest of the low" with a deen to match.

Why don't you get lost!

[Africawala0000]

Brother Hafeez,

They are lost, you do not have to ask them to do so. They lost since they changed the Adhan amended by Umar. They lost since they pushed the door on hazarat Fatimah.

The Prophet said, and I have already quoted, that "A believer is he who loves the Prophet more than any human being". They loved Umar and abu Bakar so much that they left the Prophet's body and went to elect a leader. The Prophet said, a believer is he who loves him more than any human being. According to the Qur'an the Prophet was asked to say" I do not ask you more than the love of my kith and kin. Yet they ignored the Prophet and hurt the Prophet's kith and kin.

They lost out when Allah said, Obey Allah, Obey the Apostle and Obey the Ulil Amr". They disobeyed when the Prophet asked for a pen and paper to write something. The Prophet had said that once he writes it, the Ummah will not get lost. They did not give the Prophet the pen and paper, and they got lost. What were they afraid of?

Now they call us Bushmen, because they are in the Bush and see everybody Bushmen.

They claim that they follow the prayers prescribed by the Prophet, and when I tell them the Prophet prescribed short long, etc. prayers, they tell me because it was hot and cold, and nowadays they have fans, etc. Obviously the Prophet did not prescribe a set prayer from the above, so who set up the prayer? I have two books in front of me and both are called Muslim prayers, one from Egypt and other from Malaysia and neither of them have the same prayers.

The Prophet never had fans, he used Palm fonds to air himself, and since they are the advocates of prophet's Sunna in every way, why not do without the fans and shorten and lengthen the prayers as the Prophet did?, why not follow the sun in setting the times of prayers instead of setting up a calendar? Most of their people whom I know take baths everyday, but the Prophet said to take bath on Fridays so the Mullahs take baths on Fridays and then they wonder why people run from them when they approach them . And talk about Masjids. I quoted the Ayat in which Allah S.W.T. said Lit is such Light in houses... (the translation literally comes close to Jamat Khanas), it does not say Masjids otherwise the English translation would have been Mosques. In Arabic it says FI Buyutin (in houses)
I have no problem whether it is Masjids, Church or Temple, I believe Allah is everywhere but they think He is only in Masjid. And Allah S.W.T. says He is closer than the jugular vein! See what I mean?

So brother, they are lost, truly lost!

So brother, let them speak, I have more stuff to rub their noses into.

Proud African

[Muslim First]

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Anybody who says that Prophet SAW did not show us how to pray 5 salah on set times and how to do it is a liar. All you have to do it is Google " Salah in Islam " and you will get links to Shia and Sunni interpretations of salah.

98% (I will give 2% to rejecter sects) of Muslims both Shia and Sunni believe that there are 5 set Rakahs (Units). Each unit includes Standing, bowing and sitting between two prostrations. Al-Fateha is recited in each unit. During these actions you say prayers which prophet taught us. Various Fique has slight acceptable variations.

Adhan is a call to prayers. I have posted story of Adhan on this board when qiyam was active. Prophet approved wording of Adhan suggested by a Sahaba. It does not matter if Umar added a line saying "Prayers are better then sleep" during morning Adhan. Nor it matters if Adhan is repeated before Khutba on Friday.

Brother stop nit-picking. I could not help but it reminds me " Naachna nahi to Aangan tedha"

I do believe some of Ismali brothers suffer from over exposure of Nooor of H.I. Their brains are fried. Perhaps H.I.'s Noor emitting is calibrated to improve performance of his spiritual animal children. This dose is too big for his human spiritual childrens.

If Ismaili Brothers want to discuss Salah then let us open up another discussion.

Ginan are good? check this one and this HAK TU(N) PAAK TU BAADSHAAH Ginan which is nothing but Shirk.

[Muslim First]

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In Prohets time some prayer leaders were reciting long Suras during prayers which were causing difficulties for old and infirm that is why Prophet asked them to read short sura's to make it easy for them.

Here please read Shia Imaam's writing regarding Adhan and 5 prayers including shortening of prayers for travellers.
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[anajmi]

Brother Muslim First,

I think it is time to stop discussing Ismailis completely. We have been down this road before. Their leader is back and pretty soon we will be discussing that Allah is 30 feet tall. I would advise you to completely shut down this discussion from your side.

[porus]

I do not think that Aga Khanis have made a good case vs Anajmi & MF regarding whether they truly follow the Prophet of Islam.

While Quran specifies that the leadership of Muslims would be from Prophet Ibrahim's progeny, it is not clear how we are to recognize the Imam except through the writings of historians, all of whom support the claims of a different person to be the Imam.

However, one thing is clear. Imam must abide by the Shariat of Rasulullah. Among other things, shariat does indeed include five/seven/twelve pillars, depending on your persuasion; and foremost among these are salaat, roza, and hajj as prescribed by the Prophet. By this criteria, Aga Khan fails the test.

Needless to say, Aga Khan is perfectly entitled to follow his own interpretation of Islam and to lead his followers in the way he deems appropriate.

Islam means submission to Allah, and if we define it too narrowly then we become fodder for extremists among Muslims. Aga Khanis should know that their practices are sufficiently different from those of other Muslims and not engage them in a discussion of rituals.

[Africawala0000]

Porus:

and foremost among these are salaat, roza, and hajj as prescribed by the Prophet. By this criteria, Aga Khan fails the test.

You too? Give me an example of a prescribed prayer!!!!

Listen brother, just because Akbearally Mehrally tells you that Ismailis do not fast or go for Hajj does not mean they don't. Do you really believe a confessed liar?

We have been over this issue here and before. I agree they do not emphasize Hajj as much as other sects of Islam do but those who can afford to go for Hajj they do and not going for Hajj does not mean you are committing a sin. Does it?

Just use your common sense. With years of persecution, Ismailis had been very poor and the condition of Ismailis in India was even worst. Ismailis" condition improved with the Imamat of the late Imam and present Imam. Before the late Imam, Ismailis could not even afford one full meal a day. Al-hamdullillah they are doing good now and ask around, there are people who go on Hajj. As far as Rozas go, they do fast. I do not know where you guys get your information and no matter what the Ismailis say, you seem to be turning a deaf ear to them. So why should we even discuss this with you.

As regards Salaat, I do not know what your persuasion is, but do you recite the same salaat that the Sunnis, Bohoras or the Ithanasheris recite? Only recently I found out that the Kalima recited at the time of escorting the Janaza is recited differently by one sect , which I do not wish to mention here. Ismailis recite the same as the Sunnis do, but there are differences in practice of rituals in all Muslim sects otherwise there would not be 73 sects.

I have ahadith that state that the Prophet used to pray lying down, on the back of a camel, etc. So tell me what is the prescribed Salaat, Porus, and let us discuss that. Where do you keep your hands when you stand up and where do the others keep their hands? When you sit down, do you rest your right leg on your left leg or do you sit on your two legs folded under your body? How did the Prophet sit and where did he rest his hands during the Salaat?

[Africawala0000]

Muslim First,

Who are the animals? You know in your heart.

So far I have quoted you the Qur'an and ahadith from Bukhari, your own books. Your knowledge comes from Madressa of Akberally Mehrally. What a difference in our intellectual levels! You are just a poor excuse of being a sub-human, that is all.

Ginan are good? check this one and this HAK TU(N) PAAK TU BAADSHAAH Ginan which is nothing but Shirk.

I was wondering why you did not come up with this Ginan before, since you are the follower of Imam Akberally Mehrally. It seems you can only read his own b.s. that tells me that you are even worst than an animal.

Why didn't you quote the whole Ginan? Do you see the name of Ya Ali being mentioned in there? Ali is one of the attributes of Allah, you moron as pervert would call you, if you read the Ginan through and through you would not make a fool of yourself everytime you blindly take Akberally Mehrally"s word. If glorifying Ali the Allah means shirk then brother that shirk is better than hurting the Prophet's family, or more importantly his daughter!

If Umar makes a change in the Adhan or in the Qur'an it is ok and he is not even from the Ahle Bayt. Only the Ahle Bayt have that right, otherwise Allah would not have said that no Prophets would come after Prophet Mohammed and only Imams will be there to guide you. You think after since last 1400 years Allah S.W.T. has left us without guidance? Qur'an is not sufficient otherwise the Prophet would have not asked for a pen and paper to write something out!

In hadith al Kudsi, Prophet Mohammed is quoted as saying: Ana Ahmed billa Mim. What do you have to say to that? Shirk or no shirk?

You guys are Madrassa material only and read only that, plus trash from Akberally Mehrally. No wonder your minds are so polluted.

In the idea of Personality in Sufism (cambridge, 1923) p.44 Reynold a. Nicholson says: God indeed remains the creator of the world, but He is no longer in any direct sense its ruler. He is absolutely transcendent, and since the moving of the heavenly spheres would be incompatible with His unity, that function is assigned to One by whose command the spheres are moved,, i.e. to the mut'a. The mut'a is not identical with God: he must therefore be a created being.. (He) represents the archetypal Spirit of Muhammad, the Heavenly Man created in the image of God and regarded as a Cosmic power on whom depends the order and preservation of the Universe.

Iblees was a believer! Yes, he believed in God, but he did not believe in the Khalifa of God, before whom Allah S.W.T. asked him to bow his head. You saw what happened to him!

So don't be too quick to judge others.

I do not think you heard the story of Moses and the Shepherd. Here it is. As he was walking, Moses heard a shepherd praying to God, offering to comb God's hair, wash God's robe, and kiss His hand. Moses scolded the shepherd for his blasphemy. That night God appeared to Moses and admonished him. "You have driven away a worshiper from his worship. In his sincere, simple way, that shepherd was much closer to me than most scholars and ascetics". Rumi, in Essential Sufism.

Al-Ghazzali was somebody like you guys. He was a Shafei Sunni and converted to Sufism. He barked at the Ismailis when he was a sunni like you guys, and he stopped when he converted to Sufism and suffered from an illness that took away his tongue. But he, in the end accepted the ta'lim doctrine of the Ismailis.

In Al-Ghazali and the Ismailis, Farouk Mitha quotes and summarises: Marshall Hodgson and Henri Laoust have both argued that the stirrings of what later developed into al-Ghazali's existentialist posture (with the emphasis on religious experience) can be traced back to his engagement with the ta'lim doctrine, especially since the ta'lim doctrine, as much as al-Ghazali would wish it to be underplayed, culminated in an act of existential commitment to, and dependence on the teacher. This interpretation brings to light one of the most fascinating ironies in Muslim intellectural history: that al-Ghazali's intellectual reformation of Sunni Islam was in large part shaped by the ideas and ethos of the Shi'a Ismaili doctrine of ta'lim.

I doubt you will understand the above, you talibans of Madressas, but there are some guys on this board who will. This is not Madressa material, it is an intellectual aspect that Islam is all about.

So Fitnati, leave it to Allah to judge you and us. He is the only Judge. Mind your own business.