Waaz Mubarak on Lailatul Arba'een (Chehlum)

[Muslim First]

Aqa Maula TUS started Waaz Mubarak at 9:20 pm. Maula TUS did zikr of Panjatan paak and also about the tragedy of the shahadat of Imam Hussain AS. Maula TUS ye farmaayu ke Imam Hussain ni Shahadat no gam Khuda ne bhi chhe--

and God is busy doing it for last 1400 years. Comeon TUS get over it

te Quran majeed ma bhi chhe.

Could you please show me where?

Aap ye bastat si zikr farmaavi. Har pathar ane darakht na niche si khoom jaari thayu Imam Hussain ni shahadat na baad.

Are you sure TUS. Did you see it?

Aasmaan ma je laalaas (redness) chhe te Imam Hussain AS nu khoon chhe.

New discovery. Stupid scientists could not figure it out

Aqa Maula TUS ye farmaayu ke Imam Hussain AS ye je sajda ma Doa farmaavi tesi apan Mumin chhe.

Any commnts on this one?

Aqa Maula TUS ye ghanij tafseer (detail) si Imam Hussain AS ni purdard shahadat ni zikr farmaavi.

Was he there?

[mumineen]

Now Chehlum has been renamed to Arabic "Lalatul Ara'been". What would they think of next?

1. Some of the Shazadaas and Bhaisahebs are already adopting Arabic fashion of names such as xxxx BS Bin xxxdin etc. Even many of the terms, previously either being Gujrati or so-called Lisan-e-dawat, such "oramnu" now called zafaf; "samuh lagan"/Rasme Saifee now called Taiseerunnikah; "sabak" now called "Muzakeraat"; opening ceremony of a Masjid now called "Masjid Iftetah"; "devri" to Bilad-e-Imaniyah".... and so on and so forth"

2. And now access to the following:

http://media.mumineen.org/archive/photo ... don-05.jpg

According to Kothar's webiste: Mumineen.org:

http://akhbar.mumineen.org/1425/rajab_1 ... d=1425-7-2,

the person on the horse's/mare's back is:

"The dulho, Mustansir Bhaisaheb Ibn Farazdaq Bhaisaheb Zainuddin, "

3. Please refer to:

http://www.eastandard.net/daily/default.php

East African Standard of Nairobi Kenya dated Sep 24/2004:

Children from the Bohra community during prayers to welcome the community?s worldwide spiritual leader, Dr Syednna Burhannuddin, at Burhani Sports Club in Mombasa yesterday.

Pic by Maarufu Mohamed shows Bohri kids drabbed in Arab attire. Whatever happened to the Mumineen's STD? - not the telephone system Standard Trunk Dialling but Sayo, Topi and Dadhi. We suppose Kothar wishes us the Bohri Muslims converted from the Hindus, now to be converted to Arabs:

4. Apparently Kothar has hoodwinked the stupid Arabs (no wonder the Israeli Zionists and U.S.A.are taking advantage of the Arab's studpidity and taking them for a ride of their life time and hereafter)that "Bohra" is a kingdom somewhere on this earth or in this universe (or within the figment of their (Kothar's) corrupt and grandoise imagination and delusion of grandeur) and that Aqa Moula is the Sultan of this Utopia. Some of the Arabs believe the country is Brunei Darussalam - the oil rich country in the Malayan Peninsula.

His Majesty Sultan Haji Hassanal Bolkiah Mu'izzaddin Waddaulah, the Sultan and Yang Di-Pertuan of Brunei Darussalam, is the 29th of his line, which dates back to the fourteenth century.

Being the eldest son, he became Crown Prince in 1961 and ascended the Throne on 5th October 1967 following the voluntary abdication of his father, Al-Marhum Sultan Haji Omar Ali Saifuddien Sa'adul Khairi Waddien.

Aqa Moula's Father was also Saifuddifn.

5. The other misconception with the Arabs is:

Burhanuddin (R) saint whose name is associated with the Muslim conquest of Sylhet. There is a hearsay that he was involved in a conflict with Gour Govinda, the king of Sylhet, over the sacrificial slaughter of cows on the occasion of his son's Akika (an Islamic naming ceremony). When the infant son was killed at the order of the king, the father immediately appealed to the then Sultan of Bengal, Shamsuddin Firuz Shah, for redress. Burhanuddin himself showed the army sent by the Sultan and led by Sikandar Khan and Nasiruddin the way to Sylhet. Hazrat shah jalal (R.) also took part in the conquest of Sylhet, which came under the control of the Muslim in 1303 AD. In his later life, Burhanuddin (R.) became an Oliye Kamel (successful saint). His tomb is located at Kuighat in the Tultikar Mahalla of Sylhet town. [M Sahul Hussain].

6. However, the other contemporary Burhanuddin is:

LtCol (Cav) Burhanuddin Siagian

District military commander for Bobonaro, based in Maliana

LtCol Burhanuddin Siagian has been twice indicted in absentia with crimes against humanity before the Dili special panel. One indictment dated 3 February 2003 is known as the Cailaco indictment,[1] the other dated 10 July 2003 is known as the Maliana indictment.[2] These detailed documents have done much to open the curtain on how the military organised militias.

Siagian's subordinate officers mainly responsible for organising militias in Bobonaro military district were Lt Sutrisno and Sutrisno's deputy Sgt Asis Fontes (see Sutrisno). Both have been several times indicted in Dili for crimes against humanity. Siagian?s chief of staff (kasdim) was Capt (Inf) Rosidin.

Unamet political affairs officer in Bobonaro, Peter Bartu, said LtCol Burhanuddin Siagian 'oversaw the creation of the militia system in his district.... The militia structure in Bobonaro district was the most developed in terms of organisation and funding.... Bobonaro would appear to have been the subdistrict [sic - district] of greatest repression. One resident described the situation there as the worst it had been since 1975.'[3]

So there we have it - eveything you wanted to know but afraid to ask, pertaining to Kothar's fettish to become pseudo-Arabs!!!

[porus]

Upto your mischief again, hey MF?

These words are not to be taken literally. All Bohras know that. They are devices to affect emotions and Sayedna's attempt to instil remembrance of Imam Husain in his followers at all times.

How about you talk about Bollywood, instead:

Geet gaya pattharone (Stones sang a song)

Aasmaan ro raha hai (Sky is weeping)

Bin baadal barsaat (Rain without a cloud)

Lahu ke aansoo (tears of blood)

Have you seen Baiju Bawra. In a famous song, 'O duniya ke rakhwale', murti of Shiva is shown crying because of Baiju's pain. Did you laugh at this absurdity or did you get carried away in joyous melancholy of the magnificent artistic device?

Your attitude is truly dumb?

[anajmi]

That particular song was written by a Muslim, the music was by a Muslim and was sung by a Muslim.

[Zeal]

Porus,
you are comparing the words spoken by dai-ul-mutlaq with the imaginary world of bollywood.
Can anybody justify ?
Ruhaani bawa can speak so loose?

God is also doing gham of imam husain.....explicit words !!!
Most astonishing and amazing stuff for the ears...

[Muslim First]

.Br. Porus
AS

I am not a polished wordsmith like you, but here you go again. You have taken page out of Br. Africawala & Co. and telling me that since such words are used in film songs, books etc. etc. it is OK to use such imagery in religious discourse. It is OK to say Allah SWT is shedding tears even though nobody knows what he is doing. Its OK to say Shedding of tears is in Qur'an also. You will say bhai it is serious "Tamasha"

My point here is what is this fascination of Shahadat narration in Bohra religion. Don't you guys get tired of it? What is significance of this episode? Is it almost nil as per as 75% of Muslim belief or 98% as per Bohra religion.

When do you go from "Allah Bhakt" to "Hussain Bhakt"

I should have asked those questions. I am sorry if you felt like I was up to mischief.

If one Bohra ponders this question and moves away from this "Hussain Bhakti" path then it will be worth it.

Wasalaam and have a good Jumma day
.

[porus]

Br MF,

Waiz of Imam Husain is theatre and, like theatre, uses many rhetorical devices to instil vivid pictures in the imagination of the listeners.

The objective is not only to move people to shed tears for Imam Husain, but also to increase their love for Prophet and his family. Do you think that the Shia would single out Husain for this if he was not the grandson of Prophet? There are other martyrs too in history.

You ridicule their beliefs and you ridiule the word Bhakt, which means devotee. Bhakti is an ancient tradition in India and has vibrant following. It is the worship of divine. And why should not one be a devotee of Husain? Does that stop him from being a follower of Muhammad? Or does that stop him from worshipping Allah?

Islam has many facets and many ways of worshipping. All sects follow what they consider to be true teachings of Prophet. As I have said many times, all religions are true to their followers. You cannot judge anyone to be untrue or wrong.

And finally, if Allah can be pleased and if Allah can be get angry, why can't he also be sad at times?

[anajmi]

The quran makes explicit note of what makes Allah angry and what pleases him. Only the dai seems to know what makes him sad and cry.

I am sure you can increase a bohras love for the prophet and his family without resorting to theatrics and fabrications.

[anajmi]

Considering how the rivers in heaven turned to Dais and Imams, I am sure it is very easy for the Dai to point out the ayah in which Allah is crying for Hazrat Hussein.

My mistake.

[accountability]

Waiz of Imam Husain is theatre and, like theatre, uses many rhetorical devices to instil vivid pictures in the imagination of the listeners

Porous: You meant it litrelly. Right.

So it is "a" theatre.

This leads to another question. If this waiz is theatre, then whatever said in it has just fictional value, bearing no factual component.
That leads to, that for so long and by so many a theatre was and is being played. Dont you think, it would have been more just, if the audience are told that too.

Having said that, then pathway to Jannat, and this theatre a way to Jannat is also theatrical.

If I am right about the above statment, then the whole foundation of Bohra religion is shaky, as it is said to be based on vilaya, and vilaya based on (according to your above statment) fiction.

[porus]

Accountability,

Theatre is not always based on fiction. Please do not derive silly conclusions.

[accountability]

Anajmi: man I told you, all the religions are theatre, now listen to a learned person.

Believe the facts, Sir.

[accountability]

Porous: I am not drawing any "silly" conclusions. I am just taking your words litrally.
Please refer:
[QUOTE These words are not to be taken Literally . All Bohras know that. They are devices to affect emotions and Sayedna's attempt to instil remembrance of Imam Husain in his followers at all times.

] [/QUOTE]
and

[QUOTEWaiz of Imam Husain is theatre and, like theatre, uses many rhetorical devices to instil vivid pictures in the imagination of the listeners.

] [/QUOTE]

[porus]

accountability,

If you insist on this silly argument, I will have to consider that you have taken leave of your senses. Unless, of course, you are just trying to irritate me. In that case, it is ok.

Let us see.

Shias believe Imam Husain was killed by Shimr.
Shias weep over Husain's killing.

The above are not theatre.

A waiz leads people in mourning for Husain. That is a fact.

A waiz attempts to arouse emotions of his listners by saying that "Sands of Karbala shed tears, date palms shed tears and blood, angels were engaged in maatam."

Waiz is using theatrical devices to lead mourners. Mourners do not, for once believe, that sand actually weeps or date palms actually shed blood.

In a Bollywood movie, hero sings to his beloved, "tum kaho to dharti pe la dun, chand tare tod-ke". He says "If you command, I will bring the moon and stars down to earth."

If I was accountability, I would be sorely disappointed thinking he could never do that! And woudn't you be right concluding that?

[accountability]

Your last post made me smile, otherwise it was a sad day. Taking leave sometimes from senses is relaxing.

Religion is and should not be a theatre. What it says and means, should be literal in real sense of the word and meaning.

When Syedna Saheb says that Allah is in mourning in the grief of Imam Hussain. I have a big problem with it.

In surah Ikhlas, Allah says, "Allah is one" He is besought of all (samad means " do not care").

If we take Syedna Saheb's words in whichever way. It is in direct conflict with Quran. When Allah himself pronounce him "as besought of all". He cannot be in mourning for anyone.

WE start describing relgion in poetic sense, or with sense of humour, then there would be no end to it. I can say anything, and then I would say that I did not mean it literally.

In my previous post I quoted one thing, which Anajmi wanted me to prove. As I could not come up with that verse, I was feeling so bad. I repented before Allah, and asked his forgiveness, because, I had no right to quote him without authenticity.

I did not say, what I said had no literal meaning. I accepted the mistake, I learned from it, I will never quote anything which I cannot readily prove.

When Syedna Saheb is delivering sermons, from takht, everyone of his word should mean as said.
Keeping in view his importance for us bohras, his words are very much taken literally.

Religion is not humour, it is a matter of life and death. People kill and get killed for the very sake of it.

Why would Syedna Saheb make a story more or less mournfull. Hussain's message does not lie in mourning.

Porous How come all our Fatmid Imams never aqd muharram (I could not find the right word for aqd) in this way. Even Daim ul Islam has no narration or quotation from Karbala events.

[Humsafar]

Accountability, your point is well taken, but please don't beat it to death. What you are saying is how things "should be", and what Porus is saying is how things "are". There is no conflect here, just a difference of perspectives.

Moreover, everbody knows that preachings that are short on intellect are often long on emotion. Where there is no reason there is melodrama. And Sayedna and his troupe are the best practioners of this art.

Apart from a minority of nuts I don't think Bohras take his rhetoric very seriously.

[porus]

accountability,

You hear Allah getting angry, don’t you? One becomes angry when someone or some event violates his expectation of how things should be. Since Allah is the creator and orchestrates of all that is, why should he be surprised when a person violates His decree? So, it does not make any sense for Allah to get angry, yet Muslims believe he does. Now, if anger is the result of violation of expectations, then surely, so is sadness and grief. I submit that anger includes both these components. So if Allah is angry at Yazid and Shimr, he is at the same time sad for Husain. And why not? If you do not believe that, prove to me that Allah is not sad at Husain’s murder!

As for Suart al-Ikhlas, you will need to investigate a bit more. And what does “besoughtâ€

[porus]

Originally posted by accountability:

Porous How come all our Fatmid Imams never aqd muharram (I could not find the right word for aqd) in this way. Even Daim ul Islam has no narration or quotation from Karbala events.

Fatimids did in fact commemorate Aashura and there is a lot of historical material available for that. One incident that comes to mind is the Aashura commemoration during the reign of Imam Muizz. It was the year 973 AD. On that day, mourners marched through the market place and started cursing those who had kept their shops open. Majority of inhabitants of Cairo were Sunni and a right royal riot erupted. Events of that day are well-documented.

By the time that Fatimid Caliphate was founded, Aashura ritual was well established. There is a lot of historical material of the ritual during the Abbasid Caliphate.

Let me give here a historical background to the commemoration of Aashura.

When Yazid ordered the household of Prophet, whom he held prisoners in Damascus after the murder of Husain, to be returned to Madina, Husains’s sister, Zainab, requested that they be allowed to visit Karbala en route to pay their last respects to those who were slaughtered there. This wish was granted.

Their caravan reached Karbala on the 40th day after the murder of Husain. Hence, the significance of the arba’in or chelum. Zaynab and her entourage, which included Imam Zain al-Abideen found that there was already a large crowd gathered there to mourn Husain. These were Kufans and others who felt remorse at the murder of Husain and had come to pay their repects.

It was then that Zaynab recited the events of the 10th of Muharram to them and this is considered the first ever Waiz of Aashura. On hearing about the events, men and women started wailing and beating their heads and breasts with their hands. So, the first chelum of Husain was the origin of the commemoration. This, over time, got embellished in many languages and we see the result today.

The hyperbole and exaggeration surrounding the events that have seeped into the commemoration, notwithstanding, Aashura has well documented history from the mouthsa of those who witnessed the actual events. Most of our sources derive from Zaynab.

[porus]

Daaimul Islam is a book of fiqh. I think the author decided that events of Karbala are not appropriate for his book. And I think that he would have been right.

[jamanpasand]

Porus

It was said in some earlier post that Tabari
was the first one to document event of Karbala,
200-300 years after the event. Where you find this Zaynab version documented?

[porus]

jamanpasand,

Commemoration of Aashura was oral tradition during the Umayyad Dynasty following Husain's murder. When Abbasids overthrew Omayyads, they used events of Karbala to legitimize their own caliphate. It was during the Abbassid period that first accounts of Ashura were written down. By that time, the oral tradition was highly developed. Tabari's "History of Prophet and Kings" makes reference to Zaynab as the source of events of Ashura. I have not read Tabari, but I have been told that that is the case.

Not until the Safavids in Iran, was a fully written account available. By that time, Ashura had become pivotal for the identity of the Shia.

I am sad to say that there is a lack of written material and knowledge of original sources in much of early history of Islam. However, it is the received view among all the Shia that Zaynab is the prime source of events of Aashura.

[accountability]

Porous: This is a wrong perception that Allah gets angry. Allah has created everything in equilibrium. He does not get angry, or flattered. He only does justice. Allah is above emotions. therefore he cannot be sad either.

justice is the balance of the entire creation. Nothing but justice can prevail and stand the test of time and space. Word angry is only used four times in quran, once for musa. But it never said that Allah was angry.

Tabari's source of narration of Karbala events is one abul mukhnas, an imaginery figure with no back ground, and not zaineb binte ali.

I could not find any refrence to your statment that during Fatmid rule in egypt, Ashura or muharram was ever commemorated. Can you please cite the name of book and author, who has appended in their books.

Allah will not defy his own critera set for the system.

The repramind is only for those, who disobey his commands, and that too after proving beyond doubt on the day of judgement.

[accountability]

Porous: I am not a wahabi, I dont read Yousuf Ali's translation.

[tahir]

Originally posted by Humsafar:
Apart from a minority of nuts I don't think Bohras take his rhetoric very seriously.

"Minority"??

[porus]

accountability,

You should discuss these ideas with those who can understand your posts about balance, equilibrium and justice etc. It is well beyond me.

If you can find only 4 references to anger in Quran and no references to God's wrath in it, then you are certainly reading the Quran I am not familiar with.

As for Tabari and Zaynab, there is nothing I can offer you. You seem to know it all.

[mature]

you morons want always to demean evrything about us bohras yet you claim to be bohras,if you want explanation for all things then please explain the following to me 1) jesus being the son of god 2) ravan having 10 heads 3)christian belief of trinity i.e father son and god 4)countless gods of hinduism and their avatars 5) hindu worship of animals snakes cows elephants monkeys 6)catolics belief that pope is gate keeper of st peter and heaven.... ther are thousands of other examples of similar religous beliefs which do not have and will not have explanations but billions believe in them, are they all wrong? because you morons cannot understand them. All this you are doing is not because you want to know or learn but its your hatred of us bohras and our moula tus.

[mature]

and by the way what is wrong by saying that you name is e.g ahmed bin mohamed .there is nothing wrong unless you are ashamed of your dad or are a ******* .our moula is preserving our culture of being muslims and that is how most muslims should be known

[SBM]

Hello Mr. IM Mature
Welcome back after hibernation
Can you please now tell us how much WAJEBAAT did you really paid and who is that Shazada who helps you? I know you and other members of Animal Kingdom thought that we will forget that.
Come now come clean and tell us how much WAJEBAAT did you really paid??????????????

[mature]

as usual omadonkey and gang when defeated by logic start abusing,why dont you answer to my questions first.? unlike omadonkey i am not a hypocrate claiming to have a green safai and having all benifits of bohras but in heart being a prog(donkey).

[Zeal]

quote from porus:

You should discuss these ideas with those who can understand your posts about balance, equilibrium and justice etc. It is well beyond me.

If you can find only 4 references to anger in Quran and no references to God's wrath in it, then you are certainly reading the Quran I am not familiar with.
________________________________________________

Porus,

Definitely anger is something which is never associated to Allah .Allah is over all emotions, there is no doubt to it.
This world is created for the man to test.
And therefore people like shimr and Imam Husain were created.
That does not mean when shimr gets to his worst Allah will be sad or angry.

It does not makes sense for you to be angry or sad when you know you have desinged that character to be like that, does it ?

Have you ever heard a director of a film has been angry when the villian rapes or kills the heroine?

Allah has directed the entire show and he understands the climax very well than anybody else.

I think the quran you read is definitely not the one Allah has sent on Prophet Muhammed otherwise there is no reason why you cant see the wisdom in it and follow it.