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Br. qiyam
Why don't you read what Ayah 2:159 is about.
There are many Ayahs in Quran which would say "Allah will curse, Angles will curse and Humanity will curse". That does not mean it is commnd to Bohra Inc. to start saying 'Laanat' form sunrise to sunset.
You claim :"those who were authorized to explain the Quran (the Imams)..."
Let me ask you the question Where are your Imaams?
Why are they hiding?
Why they have abondened their god given right to explain Quran to you?
Why they have abondened their god given right to explain Quran to you?
BTW Tafsir Ibn Kathir has stood review by Scholars for 700 years. Where is your Dia's Tafsir? Why are they hiding their knowledge of Quran?
My brother there is no command in Quran or Sunnah to curse silly nilly.
Wasalaam
.
Cursing the companions
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear Br. MuslimFirst,
Again you neither read my post or your post completely!
Shiah curse specific persons who did specific things to the Prophet and Imams...NOT just anyone or ourselves.
And it was you who was denying anything is the Quran allowing cursing to begin with and now you write:
My brother there is no command in Quran or Sunnah to curse silly nilly.
It was YOU who put the challege:
I challenge anybody to point out a specific command in Quran or Sunnah requiring me to curse compainions of the Prophet.
I did many times...and you finally accepted it as truth when you "tafsir" agreed with it.
You are correct...cursing is a major issue...and not to be taken lightly. And this is again why shiah specifically curse specific people and not groups of people. It is what I have been saying from the start and NO SHIAH WOULD CLAIM OTHERWISE.
Where are your Imaams? Why are they hiding? Why they have abondened their God given right to explain Quran to you?
---The Imam in on this earth working through his Dai. As the Imams have done for thousands of years. Where were the Prophets/Imams between al'Azam Prophets??? They were in hiding, teaching through other means. We didn't know they existed until a latter al'Azam Prophet described and explained them to us. Much like how Imam Muiz described and explained the previous Imam as'Satr to us. Nobody but Allah and the Dais knew who and where they were. So why are they still in hidding...Allah knows..because He dictates what they do!
BTW Tafsir Ibn Kathir has stood review by Scholars for 700 years. Where is your Dia's Tafsir? Why are they hiding their knowledge of Quran?
Let me give you a brief history of Ibn Kathir:
He was Hafidh Abul Fida Ismail ibn Abi Hafs Shihabuddin Omar ibn Kathir ibn Daw ibn Kathir in Zar` the Quraishite – originally from Busra (Syria) – and raised in Damascus. He followed the Shafi`ee school of thought. Ibn Kathir was born in the year 701 AH in an area called Majdal, near Busra, west of Damascus. His father died when he was only four years old and was taken in by his brother and moved to Damascus in 706. Here, he learned from great scholars such as Ibn Asakir, Ishaq ibn Yahya al-Amudi and the great Ibn Taymiyyah who was extremely close to him. He also studied under various other sheikhs who gave him permission in fiqh and Hadith.
He mentor was Ibn Taymiyyah...the forefather of wahabism!!
My Dai gives tafsir based on the Prophet and Imams in sabaq and waaz...like the Prophet and Imams did. They don't write books like the sunni alims do!
Again you neither read my post or your post completely!
Shiah curse specific persons who did specific things to the Prophet and Imams...NOT just anyone or ourselves.
And it was you who was denying anything is the Quran allowing cursing to begin with and now you write:
My brother there is no command in Quran or Sunnah to curse silly nilly.
It was YOU who put the challege:
I challenge anybody to point out a specific command in Quran or Sunnah requiring me to curse compainions of the Prophet.
I did many times...and you finally accepted it as truth when you "tafsir" agreed with it.
You are correct...cursing is a major issue...and not to be taken lightly. And this is again why shiah specifically curse specific people and not groups of people. It is what I have been saying from the start and NO SHIAH WOULD CLAIM OTHERWISE.
Where are your Imaams? Why are they hiding? Why they have abondened their God given right to explain Quran to you?
---The Imam in on this earth working through his Dai. As the Imams have done for thousands of years. Where were the Prophets/Imams between al'Azam Prophets??? They were in hiding, teaching through other means. We didn't know they existed until a latter al'Azam Prophet described and explained them to us. Much like how Imam Muiz described and explained the previous Imam as'Satr to us. Nobody but Allah and the Dais knew who and where they were. So why are they still in hidding...Allah knows..because He dictates what they do!
BTW Tafsir Ibn Kathir has stood review by Scholars for 700 years. Where is your Dia's Tafsir? Why are they hiding their knowledge of Quran?
Let me give you a brief history of Ibn Kathir:
He was Hafidh Abul Fida Ismail ibn Abi Hafs Shihabuddin Omar ibn Kathir ibn Daw ibn Kathir in Zar` the Quraishite – originally from Busra (Syria) – and raised in Damascus. He followed the Shafi`ee school of thought. Ibn Kathir was born in the year 701 AH in an area called Majdal, near Busra, west of Damascus. His father died when he was only four years old and was taken in by his brother and moved to Damascus in 706. Here, he learned from great scholars such as Ibn Asakir, Ishaq ibn Yahya al-Amudi and the great Ibn Taymiyyah who was extremely close to him. He also studied under various other sheikhs who gave him permission in fiqh and Hadith.
He mentor was Ibn Taymiyyah...the forefather of wahabism!!
My Dai gives tafsir based on the Prophet and Imams in sabaq and waaz...like the Prophet and Imams did. They don't write books like the sunni alims do!
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
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Br. qiyam
Don't diclare victory without proofs.
You have yet to prove anything.
Wasalaam
.
Br. qiyam
Don't diclare victory without proofs.
You have yet to prove anything.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear MuslimFirst,
YOU already have proved that cursing is required on those who hide clear knowledge and that Allah, the angels, mankind, and the animal will curse those that do in this life and on the Day, unless they repent.
The companions that shiahs curse never repented for their actions that were clearly against the truth.
Of course I used the same proofs at the out set...but what do I know.
Salams
YOU already have proved that cursing is required on those who hide clear knowledge and that Allah, the angels, mankind, and the animal will curse those that do in this life and on the Day, unless they repent.
The companions that shiahs curse never repented for their actions that were clearly against the truth.
Of course I used the same proofs at the out set...but what do I know.
Salams
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
.
Br. Qiyam
You posted:” YOU already have proved that cursing is required on those who hide clear knowledge and that Allah, the angels, mankind, and the animal will curse those that do in this life and on the Day, unless they repent.”
I have never said anything which says Cursing is required.
Here is summary of what I have said:
*******
I had previously posted 4:148 as follow:
Allah does not like evil words to be uttered except by someone who is truly wronged. Allah hears all and knows all.
This ayah was revealed to permit us to curse those who have personally offended us, but in very next (4:149) Ayah Allah says “------------------ forgive an evil, then surely Allah is Pardoning, Powerful.”
What I said that here: "Allah permits (Not requires) us to curse but it is better to forgive".
*****
I have also posted a FATWA which said
It is neither Fardh, Waajib, Sunnah nor even Mustahabb to curse him. If on the other hand he is not worthy of this curse, the curse will return to the one cursing. Thus, the issue of cursing requires absolute precaution. It is better to abstain from cursing.” (See http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=4758)
(Fataawa Mahmoodiya vol.20 pg.77; Fataawa Rashidiyya pg.76)
******
CURSING
(From A TREASURY OF AHADITH, By Dr. Mazhar U Kazi)
Abu Darda narrated that Prophet SAW said:
When a person curses someone, the curse ascends to heaven, where all the gates are closed against it. Then it descends to the earth and turns right and left. After finding no exit, it finds the one who has been cursed and attaches itself to him if he deserves it; but if he doesn’t, then it returns to one who uttered it. [Related buy Abu Dawud]
*******
I have also posted Ibn Kathir Tafsir where:
Cursing the Disbelievers is allowed
See link
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=4244
Now I have only said that Quran allows ( Not requires ) you to CURSE somebody if he has offended you but it is better to forgive .
I have also said that it is not for me to judge which historical figures were Mumieen and which were Munafiqins. Allah knows better.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
Wasalaam
.
Br. Qiyam
You posted:” YOU already have proved that cursing is required on those who hide clear knowledge and that Allah, the angels, mankind, and the animal will curse those that do in this life and on the Day, unless they repent.”
I have never said anything which says Cursing is required.
Here is summary of what I have said:
*******
I had previously posted 4:148 as follow:
Allah does not like evil words to be uttered except by someone who is truly wronged. Allah hears all and knows all.
This ayah was revealed to permit us to curse those who have personally offended us, but in very next (4:149) Ayah Allah says “------------------ forgive an evil, then surely Allah is Pardoning, Powerful.”
What I said that here: "Allah permits (Not requires) us to curse but it is better to forgive".
*****
I have also posted a FATWA which said
It is neither Fardh, Waajib, Sunnah nor even Mustahabb to curse him. If on the other hand he is not worthy of this curse, the curse will return to the one cursing. Thus, the issue of cursing requires absolute precaution. It is better to abstain from cursing.” (See http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=4758)
(Fataawa Mahmoodiya vol.20 pg.77; Fataawa Rashidiyya pg.76)
******
CURSING
(From A TREASURY OF AHADITH, By Dr. Mazhar U Kazi)
Abu Darda narrated that Prophet SAW said:
When a person curses someone, the curse ascends to heaven, where all the gates are closed against it. Then it descends to the earth and turns right and left. After finding no exit, it finds the one who has been cursed and attaches itself to him if he deserves it; but if he doesn’t, then it returns to one who uttered it. [Related buy Abu Dawud]
*******
I have also posted Ibn Kathir Tafsir where:
Cursing the Disbelievers is allowed
See link
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=4244
Now I have only said that Quran allows ( Not requires ) you to CURSE somebody if he has offended you but it is better to forgive .
I have also said that it is not for me to judge which historical figures were Mumieen and which were Munafiqins. Allah knows better.
Please do not put words in my mouth.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Cursing the companions
What is a 'curse' or, more to the point, a 'curse of Allah' supposed to do to the person on whom it is inflicted? And why is it purely verbal? Bohras could all own three dolls called Awwal, Thani and Thaalith and every prayer time they could inflict pain on them by pricking pins into them. There is a good Muslim tradition to follow. That is the one about stoning Satan at Jamaraat, another superstitious Muslim homage to its Jahilliyat past.
The fact that passions are raised on this pointless subject is evidence enough that Islam retains a degrading superstitious limb and the fact that Quran itself talks about curses makes one wonder if God knew what he was doing by putting such divisive book on earth.
Since no sane person living in twenty first century would entertain these silly notions about cursing demonstrates that Quran was meant for ignorant Arabs at a particular time with not much relevance today.
Why should I much care about the power struggle among Arabs in 7th century? They did me no harm and apparently they are not doing me much good either.
The fact that passions are raised on this pointless subject is evidence enough that Islam retains a degrading superstitious limb and the fact that Quran itself talks about curses makes one wonder if God knew what he was doing by putting such divisive book on earth.
Since no sane person living in twenty first century would entertain these silly notions about cursing demonstrates that Quran was meant for ignorant Arabs at a particular time with not much relevance today.
Why should I much care about the power struggle among Arabs in 7th century? They did me no harm and apparently they are not doing me much good either.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear MuslimFirst,
I wrote that what YOU proved that cursing is REQUIRED based on what you posted...not your statement. But it would be ridiculous for you to post something you don't agree with...so I assumed you also agree to the info you posted. I meant no disrepect.
You posted from Ibn Kathir refering to ayat 2:158-2:160:
These Ayat sternly warn against those who hide the clear signs that the Messengers were sent with which guide to the correct path and beneficial guidance for the hearts, after Allah has made such aspects clear for His servants through the Books that He revealed to His Messengers.
The fact that an ayat from Quran says those who hide clear knowledge are to be cursed in this life is an order from Allah and is to be obey...whether you like it or not.
This is NOT the same as someone offending ME and me forgiving them, which is what everything you post is related to (the fatwa, the ayats, etc).
This IS NOT the issue to begin with.
The companions in question didn't offend ME..they over-ruled the decision of the Prophet...which falls under the category of hiding clear knowledge given from Allah and the Prophet to the ummah.
The companions in question did offend (to say lightly) persons that the Prophet ordered NOT to be offended like Ali, Fatima, Hassan, and Husayn. Thus they again over-ruled a command of the Prophet.
Shiah don't curse them just because they offended other muslims...they over-ruled the commands of the Prophet!!!
Hope this clarifies.
I wrote that what YOU proved that cursing is REQUIRED based on what you posted...not your statement. But it would be ridiculous for you to post something you don't agree with...so I assumed you also agree to the info you posted. I meant no disrepect.
You posted from Ibn Kathir refering to ayat 2:158-2:160:
These Ayat sternly warn against those who hide the clear signs that the Messengers were sent with which guide to the correct path and beneficial guidance for the hearts, after Allah has made such aspects clear for His servants through the Books that He revealed to His Messengers.
The fact that an ayat from Quran says those who hide clear knowledge are to be cursed in this life is an order from Allah and is to be obey...whether you like it or not.
This is NOT the same as someone offending ME and me forgiving them, which is what everything you post is related to (the fatwa, the ayats, etc).
This IS NOT the issue to begin with.
The companions in question didn't offend ME..they over-ruled the decision of the Prophet...which falls under the category of hiding clear knowledge given from Allah and the Prophet to the ummah.
The companions in question did offend (to say lightly) persons that the Prophet ordered NOT to be offended like Ali, Fatima, Hassan, and Husayn. Thus they again over-ruled a command of the Prophet.
Shiah don't curse them just because they offended other muslims...they over-ruled the commands of the Prophet!!!
Hope this clarifies.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear Porus,
The purpose is to encourage the person to stay within the limits of faith and excel. In your world, the ideal is to reach for a ethical and spirtual oneness with Allah (or Creator). This is the essense of Tawhid. There are however, ritual and guidelines to reach this goal (whether salat, fasting, meditation, etc.) The Prophet retreated to Mt. Hira to meditate and fasted often (this before Prophethood reached him). The goal is the same...and Allah wants all of us to reach this goal.
But the opposite is that most want to adjust to get what they can out of this life. They are those that push the limits in every direction...to the degree of misquoting and misguiding to empower their stance. These are those that the curse is applied to...as a deterant.
By the way the stoning at Jamarat is a re-enactment of Prophet Ismail's act of stoning the Shaytan when he appeared to dissuade Prophet Ismail enroute to his sacrifice with his father Prophet Abraham.
The purpose is to encourage the person to stay within the limits of faith and excel. In your world, the ideal is to reach for a ethical and spirtual oneness with Allah (or Creator). This is the essense of Tawhid. There are however, ritual and guidelines to reach this goal (whether salat, fasting, meditation, etc.) The Prophet retreated to Mt. Hira to meditate and fasted often (this before Prophethood reached him). The goal is the same...and Allah wants all of us to reach this goal.
But the opposite is that most want to adjust to get what they can out of this life. They are those that push the limits in every direction...to the degree of misquoting and misguiding to empower their stance. These are those that the curse is applied to...as a deterant.
By the way the stoning at Jamarat is a re-enactment of Prophet Ismail's act of stoning the Shaytan when he appeared to dissuade Prophet Ismail enroute to his sacrifice with his father Prophet Abraham.
Re: Cursing the companions
just out of curiosity, does anyone on this message board have any professional training in the islamic sciences, academic or traditional? if i may offer my opinion, i find the majority of the comments posted here to be argumentative and misinformed. your infatuation with islamic modernism (i.e. fazlur rahman) is so cliche. your lack of using sources (i.e. ibn kathir, a staunch sunnite) critically is amusing.
-Shayba
-Shayba
Re: Cursing the companions
I'm not sure that would be of any use in real life.does anyone on this message board have any professional training in the islamic sciences, academic or traditional?
Common sense sure does go a long way though Dr. Shayba, but unfortunately no professional training in the Common Sciences, academic or traditional is offered as of yet.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
.
qiyam said: "The purpose is to encourage the person to stay within the limits of faith and excel. In your world, the ideal is to reach for a ethical and spirtual oneness with Allah (or Creator). This is the essense of Tawhid."
Look who is talking about Tawhid. What would this Dai, Holy Family and grave worshipper know about Tawhid?
Wasalaam
.
qiyam said: "The purpose is to encourage the person to stay within the limits of faith and excel. In your world, the ideal is to reach for a ethical and spirtual oneness with Allah (or Creator). This is the essense of Tawhid."
Look who is talking about Tawhid. What would this Dai, Holy Family and grave worshipper know about Tawhid?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear MuslimFirst,
I knows to follow Allah and His Messenger...whether I like or understand their command or not.
The Prophet sent Dais (such as Maulana Ali) to the lands to teach them Islam. The Prophet went to visit the grave yard every day. The HOLY Prophet said to honor and respect his family as though your respecting him. Allah and the Prophet has said those that don't follow their command and respect them...the believer should separate themselves from them.
So ask the same question of the Prophet:
"What would this Dai, Holy Family and grave worshipper know about Tawhid?"
Maybe you will then understand how idiotic a question that really is!
I knows to follow Allah and His Messenger...whether I like or understand their command or not.
The Prophet sent Dais (such as Maulana Ali) to the lands to teach them Islam. The Prophet went to visit the grave yard every day. The HOLY Prophet said to honor and respect his family as though your respecting him. Allah and the Prophet has said those that don't follow their command and respect them...the believer should separate themselves from them.
So ask the same question of the Prophet:
"What would this Dai, Holy Family and grave worshipper know about Tawhid?"
Maybe you will then understand how idiotic a question that really is!
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
.
Br qiyam
here is a Tawhid test for you.
Do you bow down in sajdah to your ‘syedna’ just like the believers in Tauhid bow down to Allah Subhanah!
Do you in presence of your syedna, bow down in his direction, regardless of the direction of the Kaabah!
Do you invoke your ‘syedna’ sitting, standing and lying down for all your needs!
Do you bow down in sajdah to the graves of your dead syedna’s!
Do you believe your syedna has knowledge of the unseen!
Do you believe that your syedna can hear you when you call on him!
Do you believe your syedna is aware of your condition at all times!
Do you believe your syedna can perform miracles at will!
Do you believe that your syedna has the power to give you the Gardens of Paradise in the Hereafter!
Do you believe that Your syedna has the power to bless you with good, and relieve from evils from you.
Do you believe, obey, revere, respect, and follow every command of your syedna unconditionally; even if his command is against the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah!
Do you believe a thing is halaal if Your syedna declares it halaal; and a thing is haraam if Your syedna declares it haraam!
Do you believe that your syedna is the recipient of all your gratitude and thanks, for every ‘nehmah’ that you have received from Allah Subhanah!
I do not need Answer.
Wasalaam
.
Br qiyam
here is a Tawhid test for you.
Do you bow down in sajdah to your ‘syedna’ just like the believers in Tauhid bow down to Allah Subhanah!
Do you in presence of your syedna, bow down in his direction, regardless of the direction of the Kaabah!
Do you invoke your ‘syedna’ sitting, standing and lying down for all your needs!
Do you bow down in sajdah to the graves of your dead syedna’s!
Do you believe your syedna has knowledge of the unseen!
Do you believe that your syedna can hear you when you call on him!
Do you believe your syedna is aware of your condition at all times!
Do you believe your syedna can perform miracles at will!
Do you believe that your syedna has the power to give you the Gardens of Paradise in the Hereafter!
Do you believe that Your syedna has the power to bless you with good, and relieve from evils from you.
Do you believe, obey, revere, respect, and follow every command of your syedna unconditionally; even if his command is against the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah!
Do you believe a thing is halaal if Your syedna declares it halaal; and a thing is haraam if Your syedna declares it haraam!
Do you believe that your syedna is the recipient of all your gratitude and thanks, for every ‘nehmah’ that you have received from Allah Subhanah!
I do not need Answer.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear MuslimFirst,
If that is your understanding of what bohras believe...then you have little understanding of the bohras to begin with. Maybe before comment on what YOU think we believe...you should learn WHAT we believe....from your statement you DO NOT.
Of course again...you've jumped topics!!!
If that is your understanding of what bohras believe...then you have little understanding of the bohras to begin with. Maybe before comment on what YOU think we believe...you should learn WHAT we believe....from your statement you DO NOT.
Of course again...you've jumped topics!!!
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
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Br qiyam
read the following:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=000786
This is what your religion teaches?
I am sure you have some ayas of Quran to explain.
Please, please comment.
Wasalaam
.
Br qiyam
read the following:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=000786
This is what your religion teaches?
I am sure you have some ayas of Quran to explain.
Please, please comment.
Wasalaam
.
-
Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Cursing the companions
.
Br qiyam
Comming back to curses in following link:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=000786
Janaab Mazoon says as follows:
"and he did Doa that Allah give them (all those involved) Sazaa for their sins"
I believe he was justified since he was perosnally offended and Allah permits CURSING in such case. [See 4:149]
Allah does not like evil words to be uttered except by someone who is truly wronged. Allah hears all and knows all.
What do you think?
Wasalaam
.
Br qiyam
Comming back to curses in following link:
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=000786
Janaab Mazoon says as follows:
"and he did Doa that Allah give them (all those involved) Sazaa for their sins"
I believe he was justified since he was perosnally offended and Allah permits CURSING in such case. [See 4:149]
Allah does not like evil words to be uttered except by someone who is truly wronged. Allah hears all and knows all.
What do you think?
Wasalaam
.
Re: Cursing the companions
Dear MuslimFirst,
You seem not to grasp the topic. The is a huge difference for cursing someone because of personal offense and cursing people who disobeyed the Prophet.
You seem not to grasp the topic. The is a huge difference for cursing someone because of personal offense and cursing people who disobeyed the Prophet.