There is a dreamer sitting on a bag of rice at every street corner from Sudan to Bangladesh, with a new vision for the world. It is the fact that you don’t offer any real solutions that I have an issue with. It is easier to tear down than to build. These so-called “ills” you mention are not specific to a system, but to humans at large who have the opportunity and the ability to indulge in these ills. If you gave us a different possibility and perspective or any alternative that is practicable, then you would not be deserving of a label of dreamer or utopian, and could be taken seriously. The social and economic path the US has taken has enabled it to become the lone superpower at the same time that competing systems have imploded. The world has not followed it “willy nilly”, because socialism, dictatorships, communism, and corruption makes them unable or unwilling to do so. Had they done so, the world would be a better place.
This imperfect systems works, and works very well, learn from it. It provides the opportunity for dreamers to turn their vision into reality, if they choose to do so. My advice to you, be a realist, dream, follow the rules, work hard, and you can’t go wrong. Rock the boat all you want; just don’t flip it over, else you will drown.
Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
All people who want to see a change in something or the other are dreamers, for the change only exists in their imagination. Having idealistic visions is not something that should be phoo-phooed or dismissed lightly. Many of the most important thinkers in human history were idealists and dreamed of structures (social and scientific) which, though we now accept as natural, were then seen as fuzzy headed or trying to improve an already working system. Of course, such idealist dreams must also be supplemented by concrete action to realize them. Actually, an idealist, and seemingly almost unachievable, dream is represented by the Progressive Movement itself. At times it seems impossible that the dream for jamaat autonomy, accountability of community funds, non-interference in secular matters etc. can ever be achieved. Yet one can't simply tell those people who desire a change in the Bohra administration to just accept the "already working, but imperfect system". There would be no progressive movement (or this message board!) if there were no dreamers.
Anyway, I suggest to those interested to read the new book "Brainwashing: the science of thought control", Kathleen Eleanor, 2004 (Oxford University Press, Oxford). It discusses, among other things, "brainwashing" (or lack thereof) in advertising, education, and of course cults and totalitarian systems. I am sure that most bohras (specially the Progressive variety) will see frighteningly strong similarities between totalitarian systems described therein and our own community. I also hope the orthodox on this board read this book to make an attempt to understand how their thinking is almost completely controlled by the priesthood.
Anyway, I suggest to those interested to read the new book "Brainwashing: the science of thought control", Kathleen Eleanor, 2004 (Oxford University Press, Oxford). It discusses, among other things, "brainwashing" (or lack thereof) in advertising, education, and of course cults and totalitarian systems. I am sure that most bohras (specially the Progressive variety) will see frighteningly strong similarities between totalitarian systems described therein and our own community. I also hope the orthodox on this board read this book to make an attempt to understand how their thinking is almost completely controlled by the priesthood.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
I heartily endorse Kalim. Where would world be without dreams?
I recall an episode when a visitor happened to visit Gandhi in a Birla guest house. The visitor saw Gandhi sitting on a potty to eliminate himself. Next to him was Nehru doing shirsasan (headstand) and a third person was solving a crossword puzzle. The visitor burst out laughing and remarked if that is how they were going to rid India of the British. But he did not understand the power of Gandhi's dream to topple the empire on which the sun never set.
And the struggle for black civil rights in the USA were encapsualated famously by Martin Luther King in his "I have a dream" speech which reverberated round the world with inspiring words yet to be equalled.
And I can count many dreams, among them the suffaragette movement and emancipation from slavery.
And who can forget Einstein as a child imagining himself riding on a beam of light? Later he would give this dream a mathematical form in the Theory of Relativity.
Yes, dreams show possibilities and suggest courses of action.
Let me quote Goethe:
"Whatever you can do or dream you can....begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it."
I recall an episode when a visitor happened to visit Gandhi in a Birla guest house. The visitor saw Gandhi sitting on a potty to eliminate himself. Next to him was Nehru doing shirsasan (headstand) and a third person was solving a crossword puzzle. The visitor burst out laughing and remarked if that is how they were going to rid India of the British. But he did not understand the power of Gandhi's dream to topple the empire on which the sun never set.
And the struggle for black civil rights in the USA were encapsualated famously by Martin Luther King in his "I have a dream" speech which reverberated round the world with inspiring words yet to be equalled.
And I can count many dreams, among them the suffaragette movement and emancipation from slavery.
And who can forget Einstein as a child imagining himself riding on a beam of light? Later he would give this dream a mathematical form in the Theory of Relativity.
Yes, dreams show possibilities and suggest courses of action.
Let me quote Goethe:
"Whatever you can do or dream you can....begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it."
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
I wouldn’t be too hasty in diminishing Gandhi and Einstein’s contributions as “dreams”. If they were just that, we wouldn’t be talking about them now. They worked to bring about a change in the system, and they didn’t do it by dismissing their opponents as “duped”, and “dumb”. Not having a true grasp of what or who you are trying to change is a recipe for failure. The Progressive Movement has a working model in Udaipur and they are doing an effective job of educating people and getting their message across. I wouldn’t doubt it if the Orthodox Bohras outnumber the rest of us on this board.
Mischaracterize my post if you must to make a point. I stand by the contention that dreamers are a dime a dozen, it is those that act on those dreams who change the world.
" You got some big dreams, baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep." Dylan
Mischaracterize my post if you must to make a point. I stand by the contention that dreamers are a dime a dozen, it is those that act on those dreams who change the world.
" You got some big dreams, baby, but in order to dream you gotta still be asleep." Dylan
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
I believe there are no problems with Islam. The problems are with the followers. Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion. That means you cannot force someone to believe in Islam. If force was used to convert people to Islam then, it is the problem with those who believe and not the religion. But I agree, that outsiders will study Islam based upon what the followers of Islam are or what they do.
Like say for eg a democracy is/was a perfect system. A system for the people, of the people and by the people. But if you look at the history of the world since democracies were invented, the most killings and misery has been caused by the so these great democratic nations. Hitler's germany was a democracy and Bush's America is a democracy.
Average Moron,
Well, that is why I am asking you and not quoting from the books of history.Besides it is never a good idea to look at history from the standpoint of a belief system - you are bound to get a distorted view. For nothing in human history - and especially so in religion - is pure, pristine, uncomplicated and unblemished. The history of Islam is no exception.
I believe there are no problems with Islam. The problems are with the followers. Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion. That means you cannot force someone to believe in Islam. If force was used to convert people to Islam then, it is the problem with those who believe and not the religion. But I agree, that outsiders will study Islam based upon what the followers of Islam are or what they do.
Like say for eg a democracy is/was a perfect system. A system for the people, of the people and by the people. But if you look at the history of the world since democracies were invented, the most killings and misery has been caused by the so these great democratic nations. Hitler's germany was a democracy and Bush's America is a democracy.
Average Moron,
Now that is a true moronic statement considering the post that it was referring to.I wouldn’t be too hasty in diminishing Gandhi and Einstein’s contributions as “dreams”.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Rock the boat all you want; just don’t flip it over, else you will drown.
AB,
Even your analogies reflect your rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities. Not all people whose boats flip over end up drowning. They may be wearing life jackets, they could swim to the shore, they could be rescued. Drowning is not the only outcome. But how would you know?
AB,
Even your analogies reflect your rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities. Not all people whose boats flip over end up drowning. They may be wearing life jackets, they could swim to the shore, they could be rescued. Drowning is not the only outcome. But how would you know?
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
anajmi,
It is a common fallacy to think that ideologies and doctrines are perfect, it’s their followers who mess it up. This idea is so deeply ingrained and so widely held that it is considered as self-evident truth.
You give examples of democracy and Islam. Well, democracy is not perfect. As an ideal it is the best thing we have but in its core principle of “the will of the people” it carries the danger of the “tyranny of the majority”. This is exactly what happened in Hitler’s Germany. Nazis, Hindu nationalists etc. are all too willing to recognise and exploit the imperfections of democracy. So we have to be careful.
Islam is far more problematic. If the Quran talks about “there’s no compulsion in religion”, it also talks about killing unbelievers, chopping off their fingers, about not making friends with Jews and Christians etc. These (and many other contradictions) are enough to suggest that things are not really perfect with our religion. But that is not my point here. A larger point that I want to make is that at the very core of Islam (and other religions) is the idea of absolutism and finality. It fosters a totalitarian and uncompromising worldview: one god, universe as His creation, all other gods are false, do this, don’t do that, eternal punishment and hellfire, endless rewards etc. etc. All this is imposed on a believer not on basis of reason, truth or for greater good but just because it happens to be in a book which is considered to be divine.
It is this kind of absolutist, rigid mindset that creates bigots and terrorists. And it is this mindset that stems from the bowels of religion that lead believers to do bad things. Otherwise why would believers do bad things if they understood that their religion is not 100% perfect? If they took it with a pinch of salt.
Humans mess it up because basically ideologies and doctrines mess it up. And they are human creations after all.
It is a common fallacy to think that ideologies and doctrines are perfect, it’s their followers who mess it up. This idea is so deeply ingrained and so widely held that it is considered as self-evident truth.
You give examples of democracy and Islam. Well, democracy is not perfect. As an ideal it is the best thing we have but in its core principle of “the will of the people” it carries the danger of the “tyranny of the majority”. This is exactly what happened in Hitler’s Germany. Nazis, Hindu nationalists etc. are all too willing to recognise and exploit the imperfections of democracy. So we have to be careful.
Islam is far more problematic. If the Quran talks about “there’s no compulsion in religion”, it also talks about killing unbelievers, chopping off their fingers, about not making friends with Jews and Christians etc. These (and many other contradictions) are enough to suggest that things are not really perfect with our religion. But that is not my point here. A larger point that I want to make is that at the very core of Islam (and other religions) is the idea of absolutism and finality. It fosters a totalitarian and uncompromising worldview: one god, universe as His creation, all other gods are false, do this, don’t do that, eternal punishment and hellfire, endless rewards etc. etc. All this is imposed on a believer not on basis of reason, truth or for greater good but just because it happens to be in a book which is considered to be divine.
It is this kind of absolutist, rigid mindset that creates bigots and terrorists. And it is this mindset that stems from the bowels of religion that lead believers to do bad things. Otherwise why would believers do bad things if they understood that their religion is not 100% perfect? If they took it with a pinch of salt.
Humans mess it up because basically ideologies and doctrines mess it up. And they are human creations after all.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
Again you are pulling stuff out of your.. excuse me, out of thin air. I have a simple policy, I quote the ayahs of the quran within context, cause without which anybody can claim any ayah of the quran to mean anything. So if you want to prove your point please quote the quran (which, as I know from before, you cannot do).
Again, if most people on earth had your view point, most people on earth would not have believed in religion in one form or another. 95^ of the world believes in a God. However, almost all people on earth want the same out of life and the world as you do. So if religion had been the root cause of all problems, people would not have believed in religion to achieve that which you say can only be achieved without religion.
Either that or that God loves dumb morons cause he filled 95% of the earth with them!!
Again you are pulling stuff out of your.. excuse me, out of thin air. I have a simple policy, I quote the ayahs of the quran within context, cause without which anybody can claim any ayah of the quran to mean anything. So if you want to prove your point please quote the quran (which, as I know from before, you cannot do).
Again, if most people on earth had your view point, most people on earth would not have believed in religion in one form or another. 95^ of the world believes in a God. However, almost all people on earth want the same out of life and the world as you do. So if religion had been the root cause of all problems, people would not have believed in religion to achieve that which you say can only be achieved without religion.
Either that or that God loves dumb morons cause he filled 95% of the earth with them!!
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Iraq war takes heavy toll on civilians
According to this article 37% have been killed by the US military. Insurgents are responsible for 9.5% of the deaths. Criminals have killed 36%. If you want real figures, multiple the number of dead by 5, multiply those killed by the Americans at least by 2 and divide those killed by the insurgents at least by 2. Cause we know the figures always lie in favor of the oppressor.
According to this article 37% have been killed by the US military. Insurgents are responsible for 9.5% of the deaths. Criminals have killed 36%. If you want real figures, multiple the number of dead by 5, multiply those killed by the Americans at least by 2 and divide those killed by the insurgents at least by 2. Cause we know the figures always lie in favor of the oppressor.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
It is very convenient for one with a closed mind to brand someone who they disagree with as rigid .
I will end with a quote from your very eloquent earlier post regarding Islam that is just as applicable here. *[]=edited to apply here.
Look at it this way. So what if [America] supports violence under certain conditions or its followers used/use violence in its name? This does not in any way mitigates the essential goodness of [America], its core values of justice, benevolence, peace and human brotherhood. Concentrate on the [negative] aspects but at the same time also accept the [positive] - for that is the essential duality of all things. [Negative] cannot exist without [positive].[Evil] without [good], black without white etc. This acceptance would constitute a true understanding of [the realities of global politics and economics] and help strengthen and deepen it further.
It is very convenient for one with a closed mind to brand someone who they disagree with as rigid .
I will end with a quote from your very eloquent earlier post regarding Islam that is just as applicable here. *[]=edited to apply here.
Look at it this way. So what if [America] supports violence under certain conditions or its followers used/use violence in its name? This does not in any way mitigates the essential goodness of [America], its core values of justice, benevolence, peace and human brotherhood. Concentrate on the [negative] aspects but at the same time also accept the [positive] - for that is the essential duality of all things. [Negative] cannot exist without [positive].[Evil] without [good], black without white etc. This acceptance would constitute a true understanding of [the realities of global politics and economics] and help strengthen and deepen it further.
-
Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
...and no, America is not perfect either.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
anajmi,
Here are some ayats from the Quran. They are in no particular order, and I quote them here with great reluctance for two reasons. One, I hate to cut and paste long pieces of text. Two, I know I’m committing a grievous crime by quoting them out of context.
Of course each ayah can be understood and justified in its “proper” context. And one can find plenty of context and commentary from scholars down the ages. But the irony is that the more context you put around ayats the more clearer it becomes that they (ayats) are rooted in historical specificity. In other words, they are not universal and valid for all time, their truth is dependent on particular circumstance of history. Why? Because that which is universal and for all time – like, say the law of gravity – does not dependent on a context to become valid. It is valid and true in its own right – everywhere and at all time.
I want to stress the point I was trying to make in my previous post about the kind of mentality spawned and nurtured by religion. No matter how much context you put around these and other similar ayats, you cannot escape the conclusion that they advocate violence, cruelty, intolerance, hatred etc. And all this is put forth in a language and tone that is absolutist and tyrannical. It is this kind of doctrinaire rigid dogmas that breed intolerance, bigotry and irrationality.
Of course, you are free to draw your own conclusions.
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
002.216
YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
008.059
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
022.019
YUSUFALI: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
022.020
YUSUFALI: With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
022.021
YUSUFALI: In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
014.016
YUSUFALI: In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
014.017
YUSUFALI: In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
Here are some ayats from the Quran. They are in no particular order, and I quote them here with great reluctance for two reasons. One, I hate to cut and paste long pieces of text. Two, I know I’m committing a grievous crime by quoting them out of context.
Of course each ayah can be understood and justified in its “proper” context. And one can find plenty of context and commentary from scholars down the ages. But the irony is that the more context you put around ayats the more clearer it becomes that they (ayats) are rooted in historical specificity. In other words, they are not universal and valid for all time, their truth is dependent on particular circumstance of history. Why? Because that which is universal and for all time – like, say the law of gravity – does not dependent on a context to become valid. It is valid and true in its own right – everywhere and at all time.
I want to stress the point I was trying to make in my previous post about the kind of mentality spawned and nurtured by religion. No matter how much context you put around these and other similar ayats, you cannot escape the conclusion that they advocate violence, cruelty, intolerance, hatred etc. And all this is put forth in a language and tone that is absolutist and tyrannical. It is this kind of doctrinaire rigid dogmas that breed intolerance, bigotry and irrationality.
Of course, you are free to draw your own conclusions.
008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
009.123
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
002.216
YUSUFALI: Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
008.059
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
008.060
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah
009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
022.019
YUSUFALI: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
022.020
YUSUFALI: With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
022.021
YUSUFALI: In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
014.016
YUSUFALI: In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
014.017
YUSUFALI: In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Either that or that God loves dumb morons cause he filled 95% of the earth with them!!
I don't know about that but here's what one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century Bertrand Russell had to say on the subject:
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.”
I don't know about that but here's what one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th century Bertrand Russell had to say on the subject:
“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.”
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
AB,
Nobody wants America to be perfect. And that is not the point. America is an empire, and all empires are bad, cruel and evil. That is the nature of the beast. The point is, America can choose not to be an empire.
Nobody wants America to be perfect. And that is not the point. America is an empire, and all empires are bad, cruel and evil. That is the nature of the beast. The point is, America can choose not to be an empire.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
I guess you would've like it if God had said in the quran, "I will forgive you no matter what you do, rape, pillage, plunder, murder, steal, I will still put you in heaven. I am a good God, I will not punish you, you can take my messengers and throw them in jail if you don't like them or kill them, I will still send you all to heaven, you can believe in me or not does not matter, I will still send you to heaven and not punish you. I have not created hell but only heaven so that a saint can live with an evil tyrant peacefully and together. However if you choose to believe, then do not fight against those that oppress you. Let them rape your sisters and wifes, let them murder your relatives and steal your lands and your oil, cause if you fight back they may say your god is an evil god. Remember in heaven you will be living with the same people that raped, pillaged and murdered."
Taken out of context each ayah can be understood any way one wishes to, as you already have. I will not go into explaining the proper context cause it will certainly be a waste of time.Of course each ayah can be understood and justified in its “proper” context.
I guess you would've like it if God had said in the quran, "I will forgive you no matter what you do, rape, pillage, plunder, murder, steal, I will still put you in heaven. I am a good God, I will not punish you, you can take my messengers and throw them in jail if you don't like them or kill them, I will still send you all to heaven, you can believe in me or not does not matter, I will still send you to heaven and not punish you. I have not created hell but only heaven so that a saint can live with an evil tyrant peacefully and together. However if you choose to believe, then do not fight against those that oppress you. Let them rape your sisters and wifes, let them murder your relatives and steal your lands and your oil, cause if you fight back they may say your god is an evil god. Remember in heaven you will be living with the same people that raped, pillaged and murdered."
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
AB,
I am interested to know what would be your response if an orthodox bohra gives the same arguement in favour of imperfect kothar , replacing violence by curruption and exploitation. And obviously he would list twice as many positive points for kothar as you listed for US.Look at it this way. So what if [America] supports violence under certain conditions or its followers used/use violence in its name? This does not in any way mitigates the essential goodness of [America].....
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
all empires are bad, cruel and evil.
That is rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities.
Tahir,
You need to ask Humsafar that question as I quoted his post, except he was referring to Islam, and I added the inference to America.
all empires are bad, cruel and evil.
That is rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities.
Tahir,
You need to ask Humsafar that question as I quoted his post, except he was referring to Islam, and I added the inference to America.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
This guy Bertrand Russell does not seem to be very smart. Extrapolating - Bush has an approval rating of 40% so that means he is doing a good job! 90% of the world did not support the war in Iraq so they were wrong too! and...well, you get my point right?“The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible.”
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Yeah and being a moron that he is, he rarely ever understands what he posts, so ask Humsafar.You need to ask Humsafar that question as I quoted his post, except he was referring to Islam, and I added the inference to America.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
AB,
Imagine this:
I say, “we have this neigbourhood bully who is invading people’s homes, intimidating them with force, killing them and trying to control their properties and generally making life hell for them.”
“He is really bad”, I add.
“In fact,” I say, “all bullies are bad because the very act of bullying is bad, cruel and evil”.
To this you turn around and say, “how can you say that? ‘That is rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities.’ ”
Do you realise how ridiculous you sound?
Imagine this:
I say, “we have this neigbourhood bully who is invading people’s homes, intimidating them with force, killing them and trying to control their properties and generally making life hell for them.”
“He is really bad”, I add.
“In fact,” I say, “all bullies are bad because the very act of bullying is bad, cruel and evil”.
To this you turn around and say, “how can you say that? ‘That is rigid ideological thinking – cut and dried, admitting no alternatives, no possibilities.’ ”
Do you realise how ridiculous you sound?
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Humsafar,
Imagine this:
If an imperialistic power were to invade an African country to end genocide, or apply economic pressure and influence to force another government to control an AIDS epidemic or corruption, would you still say “all empires are bad, cruel and evil’ ? Surely you are tolerant enough to accept that it would be rigid ideological thinking. No ?
One man’s imperialistic bully is often another man’s savior.
Imagine this:
If an imperialistic power were to invade an African country to end genocide, or apply economic pressure and influence to force another government to control an AIDS epidemic or corruption, would you still say “all empires are bad, cruel and evil’ ? Surely you are tolerant enough to accept that it would be rigid ideological thinking. No ?
One man’s imperialistic bully is often another man’s savior.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
AB,
This tit for tat is getting tiresome. I’ve no interest in scoring brownie points.
The bully that does an occasional good is still a bully. All bullies are bad, cruel and evil – despite their occasional charity. All imperial powers are bullies. America is an imperial power – it is a bully and a gangster. It uses force, military power and rigged trade regimes – whatever it takes - to dominate and control the world. From the extermination of native Indians in the 15th century to the killing of innocent Irqis/Afghanis today it is guilty of aggression, occupation, massacre, genocide. It is the mightiest military power the world has ever known – but has used that power unwisely, even maliciously, to maintain its hegemony and in the process has caused unspeakable suffering and pain to people who have had the misfortune of facing its wrath.
My personal level of tolerance has nothing to do with how America is characterised. America must ultimately be judged against the very high ideals – of freedom, justice, rule of law etc. – that it claims for itself. It must be judged against the contemporary standards of morality, human rights and international law enshrined in various UN charters and to which it is a signatory. If it is a great nation it should behave like one and not hide behind the expediency of “economic and political realties” which intellectually bankrupt apologists are quick to point out.
Of course, you will not agree. And I know why. Because you are all too well schooled in the dominant culture and its prevailing wisdom to know or think of anything better.
I shall have nothing more to add on this topic unless of course you have somethng startlingly original thing to say.
This tit for tat is getting tiresome. I’ve no interest in scoring brownie points.
The bully that does an occasional good is still a bully. All bullies are bad, cruel and evil – despite their occasional charity. All imperial powers are bullies. America is an imperial power – it is a bully and a gangster. It uses force, military power and rigged trade regimes – whatever it takes - to dominate and control the world. From the extermination of native Indians in the 15th century to the killing of innocent Irqis/Afghanis today it is guilty of aggression, occupation, massacre, genocide. It is the mightiest military power the world has ever known – but has used that power unwisely, even maliciously, to maintain its hegemony and in the process has caused unspeakable suffering and pain to people who have had the misfortune of facing its wrath.
My personal level of tolerance has nothing to do with how America is characterised. America must ultimately be judged against the very high ideals – of freedom, justice, rule of law etc. – that it claims for itself. It must be judged against the contemporary standards of morality, human rights and international law enshrined in various UN charters and to which it is a signatory. If it is a great nation it should behave like one and not hide behind the expediency of “economic and political realties” which intellectually bankrupt apologists are quick to point out.
Of course, you will not agree. And I know why. Because you are all too well schooled in the dominant culture and its prevailing wisdom to know or think of anything better.
I shall have nothing more to add on this topic unless of course you have somethng startlingly original thing to say.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
It was important for me to expose that what you present as fact is your opinion, that you are as rigid and intolerant as you accuse others of being, and that you have a bias just like the next guy. That you present no real or workable suggestions or solutions, and content in bashing the US like the masses.
If you think in the absence of US imperialism, the world leaders will sit around a bonfire smoking the peace pipe, holding hands and singing Kum-Ba-Ya, you need a reality check.
You are right, this is a drag...
If you think in the absence of US imperialism, the world leaders will sit around a bonfire smoking the peace pipe, holding hands and singing Kum-Ba-Ya, you need a reality check.
You are right, this is a drag...
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Spoken like a true moron. Let me present you a hypothetical scenario which will not make sense to a moron like you but is for others more sensible on this board. If Iraq truly had weapons of mass destruction, do you think this war would've happened? Remember Americans are the most powerful cowards in the world!!If you think in the absence of US imperialism, the world leaders will sit around a bonfire smoking the peace pipe, holding hands and singing Kum-Ba-Ya, you need a reality check.
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
You think Israel would be able to steal Palestinian land if Palestine had the same kinds of weapons that Israel has?
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Fatwa Banker
- Posts: 697
- Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Ass Wipe,
What is the life expectancy of Anajmi bin Suq-Ma’Deeq in Baghdad carrying a placard saying “ I work for Americans in America “ before we see him on a video wearing orange ?????
What is the life expectancy of Anajmi bin Suq-Ma’Deeq in Baghdad carrying a placard saying “ I work for Americans in America “ before we see him on a video wearing orange ?????
Re: Pray for the muslims in Iraq
Well, first you would have to be a moron to be carrying a placard like that. Are you a moron fart bank?
Since I am not a moron, I won't be carrying that placard, second, my face is proof enough about what I am. I need no placard. The other advantage is that my skin isn't white, nor is it black. They don't need a placard either!!
However, in your case a more appropriate one would be "I am a Bush Sharon Ass Licker".
Since I am not a moron, I won't be carrying that placard, second, my face is proof enough about what I am. I need no placard. The other advantage is that my skin isn't white, nor is it black. They don't need a placard either!!
However, in your case a more appropriate one would be "I am a Bush Sharon Ass Licker".