Absolutely, and therefore one must not pretend that they have the monopoly of God's sense of good . God fearing Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and Jews and non-God fearing atheists have a lot of good in common. Therefore, it comes from the conscience and not from reading instructions in the Holy Books, or all atheists would be evil people murdering innocents or non-believers (i.e believers in God / Allah).When good deeds are done for their own sake, then the definition of good changes from person to person. What is good for me may not be good for someone else.
Who is Allah?
Re: Who is Allah?
When one applies percentages of income to good , then it is not out of love, but fear.
Re: Who is Allah?
Khairan,
you're right that there isn't the same kind of direct conditioning involved in teaching someone about Heaven or Hell as their is in zapping a mouse every time it approaches a bit of cheese. However, the associations are made, and the motivation is established. Unfortunately, because no actual research has been done (to my knowledge) on this subject, our conversation cannot leave the realm of the purely speculative.
It would be quite interesting to do a study on this though. There is this really good book called “When society becomes and addict” by this woman named Anne Schaef, it talks about various types of addictions and how the systems that we live in – instill in us, certain (which might be considered irrational) modes of thought and reason. And due to these systems we develop addictive traits that short circuit our means to deal with others and our environment in a meaningful way. For example, if a person lives in a culture that tells “little white lies” – the person will therefore think that this is ok, because everyone else is doing it, so they start lying without even realizing that they are doing so. But still there is an (action -> reaction) system that places these irrational thoughts into our deliberative process, because we see that twisting the truth seemingly brings out the ends we desire. But when I come to think of it, even media outpourings of advertisements feeding us with various concepts of beauty, happiness, etc. also try to impose associations on us (i.e. buying a Lexus will provide us with fulfillment … ) So I guess the propaganda put out by organized religion can be looked at in the same way – and the associations that are created are probably very similar to the ones that we make with material objects that we see in advertisements…
I will say this: altruism is a fallacy. No one, ever, does anything for purely selfless reasons. If you feel a sense of satisfaction, or have assuaged guilt, for giving a pauper money, then your good action is being reinforced or a negative reaction has been prevented. In that sense, Heaven and Hell are as far from esoteric as one can be, because they tie all actions and consequences back to Self. Heaven and Hell so become another layer of concreteness to supplement the rather abstract Buddhist notion of karma.
If you can get yourself to forget about the beggar who is starving outside your window, then the guilt you feel for letting it happen or the satisfaction you feel for preventing it become non-issues; it is only when one has to answer for all of his actions does one live in a universe wherein it becomes impossible for the individual, try as he might, to separate himself from the wheel of causality.
Yea, you’re right – pure altruism can be considered a fallacy, or something that’s a very very distant reality. But I think that can be said of very most things, including god, happiness, and maybe even knowledge itself. I think the goal is to try to strive to continually better one’s understanding of these things and try to improve their practice every day. I mean, if you think about it, knowledge of lets say, pure mathematics can also be considered a fallacy – we will never have complete or pure knowledge of mathematics – but that shouldn’t stop us from working on theories and figuring more things out to improve our understanding of that science and our practice of it. The same can go with “doing good things” – we can continually strive to better ourselves and our relations with others, just by stating that altruism is a fallacy, should stop us from trying to be the best people that we can be.
sh
you're right that there isn't the same kind of direct conditioning involved in teaching someone about Heaven or Hell as their is in zapping a mouse every time it approaches a bit of cheese. However, the associations are made, and the motivation is established. Unfortunately, because no actual research has been done (to my knowledge) on this subject, our conversation cannot leave the realm of the purely speculative.
It would be quite interesting to do a study on this though. There is this really good book called “When society becomes and addict” by this woman named Anne Schaef, it talks about various types of addictions and how the systems that we live in – instill in us, certain (which might be considered irrational) modes of thought and reason. And due to these systems we develop addictive traits that short circuit our means to deal with others and our environment in a meaningful way. For example, if a person lives in a culture that tells “little white lies” – the person will therefore think that this is ok, because everyone else is doing it, so they start lying without even realizing that they are doing so. But still there is an (action -> reaction) system that places these irrational thoughts into our deliberative process, because we see that twisting the truth seemingly brings out the ends we desire. But when I come to think of it, even media outpourings of advertisements feeding us with various concepts of beauty, happiness, etc. also try to impose associations on us (i.e. buying a Lexus will provide us with fulfillment … ) So I guess the propaganda put out by organized religion can be looked at in the same way – and the associations that are created are probably very similar to the ones that we make with material objects that we see in advertisements…
I will say this: altruism is a fallacy. No one, ever, does anything for purely selfless reasons. If you feel a sense of satisfaction, or have assuaged guilt, for giving a pauper money, then your good action is being reinforced or a negative reaction has been prevented. In that sense, Heaven and Hell are as far from esoteric as one can be, because they tie all actions and consequences back to Self. Heaven and Hell so become another layer of concreteness to supplement the rather abstract Buddhist notion of karma.
If you can get yourself to forget about the beggar who is starving outside your window, then the guilt you feel for letting it happen or the satisfaction you feel for preventing it become non-issues; it is only when one has to answer for all of his actions does one live in a universe wherein it becomes impossible for the individual, try as he might, to separate himself from the wheel of causality.
Yea, you’re right – pure altruism can be considered a fallacy, or something that’s a very very distant reality. But I think that can be said of very most things, including god, happiness, and maybe even knowledge itself. I think the goal is to try to strive to continually better one’s understanding of these things and try to improve their practice every day. I mean, if you think about it, knowledge of lets say, pure mathematics can also be considered a fallacy – we will never have complete or pure knowledge of mathematics – but that shouldn’t stop us from working on theories and figuring more things out to improve our understanding of that science and our practice of it. The same can go with “doing good things” – we can continually strive to better ourselves and our relations with others, just by stating that altruism is a fallacy, should stop us from trying to be the best people that we can be.
sh
Re: Who is Allah?
Absolutely, and therefore one must not pretend that they have the monopoly of God's sense of good . God fearing Muslims, Hindus, Christians, and Jews and non-God fearing atheists have a lot of good in common. Therefore, it comes from the conscience and not from reading instructions in the Holy Books, or all atheists would be evil people murdering innocents or non-believers (i.e believers in God / Allah).
That reminds me – if you see in Sura Baqarah – Verse 2 – Abdulla Yusuf Ali translates it as “This is the book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who fear God” – I think that was only a personal choice in translation… something that could have been translated in may ways.
The actual verse is this in Arabic:
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lil muttaqeena
Yusuf Ali translates lil muttaqeena as “Those who fear god” But actually .. the word muttaqeena is from the Arabic root W-Q-Y which has root meanings of guarding, preserving, and protecting one’s self. So muttaqeena can have the meaning to be “conscientious ” or to be on guard, watching one’s actions continually. So the verse and all further uses of “fearing God (when translated from muttaqeena)” can be translated into “being conscientious” .. i.e. “This is the book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who are conscientious.” Just something to think about. A lot is lost in translation, many times a few sentences need to be used to explain a word that the translator might translate one way mainly because of the limitations of a language. If you look at the notes to the AYA translation (note 26) he mentions another word – Taqwa which is also a derived word from the W-Q-Y root. And he states that it signifies “restraint, or guarding one’s tongue, hand and heart from ‘evil’ .”
Thanks,
sh
That reminds me – if you see in Sura Baqarah – Verse 2 – Abdulla Yusuf Ali translates it as “This is the book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who fear God” – I think that was only a personal choice in translation… something that could have been translated in may ways.
The actual verse is this in Arabic:
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lil muttaqeena
Yusuf Ali translates lil muttaqeena as “Those who fear god” But actually .. the word muttaqeena is from the Arabic root W-Q-Y which has root meanings of guarding, preserving, and protecting one’s self. So muttaqeena can have the meaning to be “conscientious ” or to be on guard, watching one’s actions continually. So the verse and all further uses of “fearing God (when translated from muttaqeena)” can be translated into “being conscientious” .. i.e. “This is the book; In it is guidance sure, without doubt, To those who are conscientious.” Just something to think about. A lot is lost in translation, many times a few sentences need to be used to explain a word that the translator might translate one way mainly because of the limitations of a language. If you look at the notes to the AYA translation (note 26) he mentions another word – Taqwa which is also a derived word from the W-Q-Y root. And he states that it signifies “restraint, or guarding one’s tongue, hand and heart from ‘evil’ .”
Thanks,
sh
Re: Who is Allah?
Muddai,
What the heck are you talking about. I mentioned a few good deeds that have a monopoly in Islam which you do not do.
Sure you can do good that is universal and that which all do and that which comes from the conscience and the reward for that is the goody goody feeling that you get after doing it. So whoever said you cannot do it. Please go ahead and do as much good as you want to.
I am looking for a better life in the hereafter so apart from the goody goody feeling good deeds, I do a little bit more.
What the heck are you talking about. I mentioned a few good deeds that have a monopoly in Islam which you do not do.
Sure you can do good that is universal and that which all do and that which comes from the conscience and the reward for that is the goody goody feeling that you get after doing it. So whoever said you cannot do it. Please go ahead and do as much good as you want to.
I am looking for a better life in the hereafter so apart from the goody goody feeling good deeds, I do a little bit more.
Re: Who is Allah?
Khairan,
Jesus Christ was a jew and traditionally Jews are not white.
Jesus Christ was a jew and traditionally Jews are not white.
Re: Who is Allah?
anajmi,
see my post again. I did not say that Jesus was white, but that European Chrisitians came to think of him as white. Medieval artwork depicting Jesus and Mary is very explicit about this.
This phenomenon did not create their ethnocentrism, but it was a product of it and would reinforce it.
salaam
see my post again. I did not say that Jesus was white, but that European Chrisitians came to think of him as white. Medieval artwork depicting Jesus and Mary is very explicit about this.
This phenomenon did not create their ethnocentrism, but it was a product of it and would reinforce it.
salaam
Re: Who is Allah?
anajmi,
There is a quotation which both exemplifies and satirizes this ethnocentrism. There are several stories regarding where it came from, but it seems to have been made by a Southerner regarding bilingual education in the United States.
"If English was good enough for Jesus, its good enough for us."
(ps - I'm a guy)
There is a quotation which both exemplifies and satirizes this ethnocentrism. There are several stories regarding where it came from, but it seems to have been made by a Southerner regarding bilingual education in the United States.
"If English was good enough for Jesus, its good enough for us."
(ps - I'm a guy)
Re: Who is Allah?
Khairan,
That Jesus was not white is a historical fact. If Europeans still want to believe that he was, who is the foolish one over here?
What God looks like no one knows. So if someone were to create an image in his mind, I don't see what the problem is as long as the image remains in the mind and does not come out in the open. This is the case with Islam. God in his "infinite" wisdom was correct in prohibiting idolizing him.
That Jesus was not white is a historical fact. If Europeans still want to believe that he was, who is the foolish one over here?
What God looks like no one knows. So if someone were to create an image in his mind, I don't see what the problem is as long as the image remains in the mind and does not come out in the open. This is the case with Islam. God in his "infinite" wisdom was correct in prohibiting idolizing him.
Re: Who is Allah?
That is total ignorance if you believe in the Quran.God in his "infinite" wisdom was correct in prohibiting idolizing him.
Re: Who is Allah?
Muddai,
Yes I believe in the quran, and yes I am ignorant unlike some who pretend to be all knowing!!
Yes I believe in the quran, and yes I am ignorant unlike some who pretend to be all knowing!!
Re: Who is Allah?
I have never professed to be all knowing or said I have said a lot which may not make sense to most of you, but hey not all of us good brains ..bad grammar, but good brains nonetheless ?
I am simply stating that a God is meant to be idolized and that is what the Quran is about. I am simply confused at your statement since you are an obvious believer of God and the Quran.
Merry Christmas......
I am simply stating that a God is meant to be idolized and that is what the Quran is about. I am simply confused at your statement since you are an obvious believer of God and the Quran.
Merry Christmas......
Re: Who is Allah?
I am simply stating that a God is meant to be idolized and that is what the Quran is about. I am simply confused at your statement since you are an obvious believer of God and the Quran.
I agree, God wants to be idolized – but not turned into a physical idol.
sh
PS: Let me cut and paste a definition of “idolize” to clear up any confusion:
idolize
v : love unquestioningly and uncritically
I agree, God wants to be idolized – but not turned into a physical idol.
sh
PS: Let me cut and paste a definition of “idolize” to clear up any confusion:
idolize
v : love unquestioningly and uncritically
Re: Who is Allah?
Here's another definition:
the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe
the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe
Re: Who is Allah?
Muddai,
Thank you for your participation, since you've run out of ideas as far as religion and good deeds are concerned, the English Language is not a bad subject to pick, only, the board is wrong.
Thank you for your participation, since you've run out of ideas as far as religion and good deeds are concerned, the English Language is not a bad subject to pick, only, the board is wrong.
Re: Who is Allah?
One eventually learns that it is OK to run out of ideas, but if you remain clueless as people have to resort to the dictionary to get you to understand the contradictions in your own postings ?
I am sure you will understand......eventually.
I am sure you will understand......eventually.
Re: Who is Allah?
Although the discussion about good deeds and why they should be done is over here is something interesting that I found while reading the quran.
v2:265
"And the likeness of those who spend their wealth seeking Allâh's Pleasure while they in their ownselves are sure and certain that Allâh will reward them (for their spending in His Cause), is the likeness of a garden on a height; heavy rain falls on it and it doubles its yield of harvest. And if it does not receive heavy rain, light rain suffices it. And Allâh is All-Seer of (knows well) what you do."
I'm sure I don't have to explain anymore.
v2:265
"And the likeness of those who spend their wealth seeking Allâh's Pleasure while they in their ownselves are sure and certain that Allâh will reward them (for their spending in His Cause), is the likeness of a garden on a height; heavy rain falls on it and it doubles its yield of harvest. And if it does not receive heavy rain, light rain suffices it. And Allâh is All-Seer of (knows well) what you do."
I'm sure I don't have to explain anymore.
Re: Who is Allah?
No, you don't.Yes I believe in the quran, and yes I am ignorant
Re: Who is Allah?
Muddai,
And I thoght you wer igknowring my possts huh!!!
got you!!
And I thoght you wer igknowring my possts huh!!!
got you!!
Re: Who is Allah?
Also, please let me know if you ignored my last post or not.
And if you ignore this one too then you probably won't answer my question about.. forget it, you are probably going to ignore it anyways.
And if you ignore this one too then you probably won't answer my question about.. forget it, you are probably going to ignore it anyways.
Re: Who is Allah?
Then why bother attempts at a discussion on evolution, fool ? Just point Khairan to the Quran. That way you can also prove to him that the earth is flat as a carpet, (or egg shaped), it is OK to marry 6 year olds (or 13), and you and your buddies can declare Fatwas (or Jihads) at the drop of a lungi (or topi).I just believe in what is there in the quran.
Lighten up dude, don't take yourself so seriously. With Qiyam apparently abiding by the new directive from the Kothar, it is your blind faith that remains (for now), until some new hadith comes around and then poof exit Anajmi (or Anjuman).
Re: Who is Allah?
as i was saying that you are a complete idiot, so why do you waste everybody's time.
The discussion that I am having with khairan is not about evolution, I would go to an idiotic evolutionist for that. It is about what the quran says about evolution and if the quran justifies evolution, I will believe in it. since
I do wish you would start ignoring my posts though!!
The discussion that I am having with khairan is not about evolution, I would go to an idiotic evolutionist for that. It is about what the quran says about evolution and if the quran justifies evolution, I will believe in it. since
But I guess that was asking for too much for your puny little brain to grasp.I just believe in what is there in the quran.
I do wish you would start ignoring my posts though!!
Re: Who is Allah?
as far as hadith are concerned, no new ones are coming, unlike theories of evolution which evolve every other day.
There will come a day when the theory will say, believe in the quran and then pooooof exit Muddai straight (did I spell this right?) into the fire.
got you!!
There will come a day when the theory will say, believe in the quran and then pooooof exit Muddai straight (did I spell this right?) into the fire.
got you!!
Re: Who is Allah?
c'mon now little brain. Just because you didn't understand what the quran says about each of these topics does not mean they do not make sense!! I would've explained each of these, but the fact that you would've ignored them or run out of ideas and then said that it is ok to run out of ideas too!!That way you can also prove to him that the earth is flat as a carpet, (or egg shaped), it is OK to marry 6 year olds (or 13), and you and your buddies can declare Fatwas (or Jihads) at the drop of a lungi (or topi).
It's been more than 1400 years and still idiots like you pose the same questions over and over again. This post of mine has already wasted a lot of disk space, I do not want to waste more, explaining to a dim wit like you.
Re: Who is Allah?
and by the way, do you know the difference between faith and blind faith??? I guess not.
Re: Who is Allah?
yes I do.
Are you sure you do??
Are you sure you do??
Re: Who is Allah?
yes I am confident in my belief, and there is no contradiction there.
Now please explain how your "faith" (as opposed to "blind faith") differs from that of Osama & the Bombers.
Now please explain how your "faith" (as opposed to "blind faith") differs from that of Osama & the Bombers.
Re: Who is Allah?
Now please explain why I should go through the trouble just to have my posts ignored(!!).