want your views on som e Bokhari hadeeth on 12 Imams Iss

[skaswani]

salam

how are you all
i am an ismaili, when i have some question to ask you, that when we see the hadeeths of bukhari, muslim, maja, yirmizi, & others of sunni books we find that there will be 12 Imams by Quresh,

can anyone explain me his /her point of view on that issue

someone them i may qoute :

1)
The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4478

2)
The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4480
3)
Judgments (Ahkaam)
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 89 :: Hadith 329

4)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4477
5)
The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4481
6)
The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4482

7)
The Book on Government (Kitab Al-Imara)
Muslim :: Book 20 : Hadith 4483

please kindly reply me here or if u feel free then at s_kaswani@hotmail.com

i'll be gr8ful

thanks

regards

[anajmi]

I am not sure what number Aga Khan is but if we count them all, I am sure we've had a lot more Imams than 12 and a lot of them have actually remained hidden.

What I do know for sure is that most of them except the ones at the beginning - 4 - to be precise, have been pretty useless. So if the hadith is accurate, then we can expect better muslim leaders to come.

And with the situation that we are in, it is only a matter of time before a good leader comes out of the rubble of the destroyed muslim lands.

[skaswani]

salam
YA ALI MADAD

did i mention i need ur views on Ismaili isum or what is the Number of Current Imam, anyways for your info he is 49th Imam of Nizari Ismaili.

i am not talking abt Nizari ... actuly my question is based on Bukhari, Muslim, Maja, Ibn Hambel & many sunni books & when we talk to Isna Ashari (12vers) they say that "see 12 Imams are mention in All sunni Books too"

so, on this way as Ismaili ( nizari & bhori) both have to think over this issue & have some good reply! i hope now i made my self clear!

in end u mention abt Imam Mehdi (the Imam in waiting) i would like to talk on that issue, but insha allah after this issue !

regards

salam, YA ALI MADAD

[anajmi]

Another Ismaili!!

[pro_pig]

Br sultan, Ya ali madad,
YOu r in wrong sites.They will make u mad brother.
wassalaam

[khuzema]

Sultan,

I don't remember the book name or the website that I read long time back, which was about the perception of shia 12er and the hadiths that talks about 12 Imams. The author cited many Hadiths that talks about 7 Imams, 24 Imams and so on. The author also sited many Ayahs of Quran which talk about some number of imams or leaders which were other then 12 and concluded that one can not prove 12 Imam’s from the Hadith

He did very good job in proving that 12 imam’s theory from the hadith is atleast a perception if not baseless. If you believe in 52 Dai’s you can prove it from Hadiths if you believe in 49 Imams you can prove that from Hadiths. If I am not wrong the author was Nasir Khosrau.

[skaswani]

salam
well, if said i may have any hadeeth which state that there will be 49th or 49 imams, i may say NO.

bec as Ismaili we believe that Quran "to every age there is a Guide"

so, we take this Imamat & continuty of Imamat usool from Quran, not from Hadeeth,

well, u qoute that "the writer could be nasir khusro"..i may say "if he said there is a need of Imam, then i may admit that he might be nisar khusoro or hasan bin saba.

bec hasan bin saba was a 12ver b4 he become ismaili, i dont know more abt nisar, but i think he was a sunni

i 'll request you to remind that book name, i want to read it, but yet the question remain the same,.WHY Bukhari & other sunni books have mention 12 Imam / Khalifa concept!

regards

[Muslim First]

.
Br SSA kaswani
AS

Why don't you Qoute those Ahadit from Sunni writers? Then we will discuss about them.

While you are at it could you answer one question for me?

Why your HI gave his daughter to non-muslim despite Qur'anic prohibation?

Wasalaam.
.

[skaswani]

salam to all
how are u

can u pls kindly qoute me the verse pls!

thanks

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Kaswani

Every true Muslims know where this Ayah is located. Evry true Muslim know that A true Muslim is foorbidden to give his daughters to non-Muslim. If you try you will find it in Qur'an.

Wasalaam
.

[accountability]

I dont understand, why Isamils friends keep coming on this site, one after other.

Majority of the members on this site are progressive, forward looking, even critical of present bohra heirarchy. In my opinio, Nizari isamilism is regressive even as compared to dawoodi bohra ismailism.

So, if we are critical of a compratively progressive isamailism, then how can we accept one, that is more regressvie.

No where in quran, it is mentioned, that, there will be dais and imams. Our ismaili college is also void of such terminology. Even the fatmid rulers never called themselves as imam. Rather they adopted the title of khalifa.

I would like to tell our ismaili friends, we very much respect your choice of religion, and we appreciate your right to any relgion, but we will also expect reciprocity.

Regarding agha khan saheb's action, If his actions are to be judged on basis of his imamat, being an imam of a muslim group, then he shall have to adhere to the basics of relgion islam. If his actions are judged on personal basis, i have nothing to say. it is his and his family's choice of marriage and social life.

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by accountability:
Majority of the members on this site are progressive, forward looking, even critical of present bohra heirarchy.

The majority on this site are regressive Wahabis who are critical of the bohra heirarchy. Compared to the majority lot on this site, the Bohras and Ismailis are relatively progressive.

Originally posted by accountability:
No where in quran, it is mentioned, that, there will be dais and imams.

If you are going solely by the Quran then I am not aware of a more extreme case of regression.

[tahir]

Pigeonholing is a primitive trait our fistful of gray matter has retained during eons of evolution.

But heck! It may be an adaptive trait instead. The brain got smarter and found a way to avoid hard work by sticking labels that are cheaply available in the culture we are conditioned in.

See my indolent brain found a quick way out with the labels 'primitive' and 'adaptive'...

No wonder everyone on this board has his definition of 'regressive' and the ability to use it at the drop of a post.

[seeker110]

This is a dawoodi bohra site,here we discus our problems.I would like dawoodi bohras to post on the message board only.

I have all the respect for the Aghakhanis,and see no reason why they cant go to their sites.The reason I brought this up is because when I went to the jamatkhana in Pakistan I was asked to leave.I was only 14 or 15 at the time and was curious.If you dont allow anybody other than Khojas dont you think you should do the same.

The thing I always wondered was why havent I ever seen a AghaKhani mayyat? Someone told me that its a big secret.I still dont know the answer.I lived next to jamatkhana,and among aghakhanis.Never saw a mayyat.

[feelgud]

Originally posted by Sajjad Sultan Ali Kaswani:
salam to all
how are u

can u pls kindly qoute me the verse pls!

thanks

002.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

[skaswani]

salam

well, i am sorry if u people mind a Nizari Ismaili here.

i didn’t come here to bother you, but to share my feelings, & u have seen i never pointed out any of ur Imams or Dias name.

btw, you asked what things we have common in our self?? let me remind u, 1st We are Muslims, then 2nd we are Shia, 3rd we are Jafari, 4th we are Ismaili , 5th we are Fatmid ... just diff is I am Nizari & you are Bohra..

well, i like to talk & base our friendship on common terms, if you don’t like, I’ll not try again

to my 1st MUSLIM Brother , if u would know the verse have given me, anyhow , yet if u find , pm me

& to my Feel Good Brother/Sister..

yes you have quoted a verse from quran.. but there is also a verse where you can marry "People of Book" that mean you can marry Jews & Christians.

one of my friend said that there is nothing mention about Imams , Dais in Quran & our Imams at Fatmid used to call themselves Khalifa not an Imam..

well, see we share same mazhab when we talk as shia.. shia believe in Imamat & that is according to Quran.

1st Khalifa & Imam was Adam a.s
Quran also mention that "we have made you Imam " referring to Hazrat Ibrahim a.s ,
& he asked, “will there be Imam in my son, Allah said YESâ€

[pro_pig]

sultan,
Once again YOu r in wrong sites.They will make u mad brother...in this saite they r every hight rank scholars. so pls keep in mind.what they say is always right.
Wassalaam

[feelgud]

002.221
YUSUFALI: Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.
----------
Lawful to you are the free believing women; and the free women from among those who were given the Book, before you, provided that you give them their dowries and live in honour with them neither committing fornication nor taking them as mistresses. (Al-Nisa - 5.5). 9 The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress and the adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater. True believers are forbidden such (marriages). (Al-Nur - 24.3).

----

Qur’an does not permit marriage with all women from the Jews, Christians or the people of book. It forbids marriage bond with all women, be they Jew or Christians, if they are Mushrik that is ascribe partners to one God. It means marriage with any Christian woman is not permitted if she proclaims, Prophet Jesus to be son of God. The rationale behind the permission of marriage with the women from the people of the book is following;
When a Unitarian Jew or Christian woman comes into the family of a Muslim, she finds that all the Prophets of God, she believes in, are revered and respected in his new home. Her husband and his family members not only honour the Prophets she believes in but they are also required to profess belief in those Prophets as part of their faith. Such adjustment of faith and genuine respect for her religious gurus may not be possible with other non-Muslim wives. Islam does not permit its followers to abuse or desecrate the deities of other religion but it does not allow compromises where partners to one God are being ascribed. Muslims are required to at least openly disown all such gods and goddesses. They are also required to reason out with all those worshippers of gods and goddesses who come in close contact with them. The religious sentiments of such non-Muslim ladies are bound to be hurt if they were married to Muslim men and the dedicate relationship of husband-wife cannot be successfully sustained.

Beside this wisdom, there is also a very clear-cut argument. Islam tells us that we have not been created for the pleasures of this world. It is but a mere testing ground for the everlasting next world. The success of Hereafter is above all worldly satisfactions. Belief in one God is the foremost principle of Islam. After Allah the Muslims are ordained to obey and respect their parents more than any other person. Qur’an asks its followers to respect and behave with their parents even if the parents are non-Muslims but they are to be disobeyed if their commands clash with the orders of the Lord. Nikah is nothing but a union by man and woman by the leave, and in the name of, Allah. A true Muslim who loves Allah more than anyone else cannot accept one as his life partner who ascribes partners to Him or does not believe in the basic purpose of a Muslim’s life in this world.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Keswani
Ya Allah Madad

Read what Br.Feelgood has posted very carefully. It is apperent that a true Muslim is forbidden to give his daughter to anybody except Muslim in marriage.

All true Muslims regardless of Firqas are expected to pray 5 times (Let us not argue about combining the prayers or hand positions). Anybody who does not pray 5 times is not a true Muslim.

I think you should stay in your Jamatkhana, recite Ginans, read Farmaans,long for Deedar of your MHI and once in while get sprinklled with Holy water (to wipe out your sin) by your Mukhi.

Please next time you have question, please use "Islam Today" section.

Ya Allah Madad
.

[Muslim First]

.
Br.Pro_pig

Welcome back. In feedback on your reserch on "Maulana will lead you to Jannah" subject?

You need to be in Surat distributing your Maulana's nyamat.

Wasalaam
.

[seeker110]

Please dont forget to take pictures of all the trucks with relief items.This will prove to all the bohris the money well spent.Post them here for us to see.

[seeker110]

Br. Kaswani salams.

When I was asked to leave the jamatkhana,I did not cry out to the people if they all wanted me to leave.I did not give them Havala of who I believed in.So kindly understand the position.Take your questions to the right sites.Or what ever your opinions are,they are diffrent from ours and you knew that before you decided to open the Dawoodi Bohra web site.

[pardesi]

Dear Brother Seeker,
Salaam, Ya Ali Madad, Ya Allah Madad. Take your pick.

I read your last post with great deal of surprise which was directed to Keswani. Your point was that he as an Ismaili has different views than yours and therefore he should take his ideas to other sites. My question to you, with all due respect, is do the Bohras not believe in the coming of Mahdi? Isn't that exactly what he asked about? Now being a Bohra is one thing but please do not forget that we were all the same until Imam Mustansir Billah the 18th Imam (I am not sure if he is 18th or 19th on Bohra list). We did share our beliefs until then. As a matter of fact all the world's major religions believe in the coming of Mahdi some by different names.

I thought it was a good topic to discuss, a neutral one at that, where all of us could discuss this issue in a positive way. I remember trying to start a similar topic few months back but got an earful of bs from some people who do not want to discuss Imam Mahdi for obvious reasons.

As for this being a Bohra site please check the main page where all are welcomed. We Ismailis have no quarell with Bohras and I personally have respected the beliefs and views of Progressives as well as the Dawoodi faction. Having different views is good and healthy for a productive discussion whatever the subject.

At times we are abused and maligned for our faith and belief yet we come back with a positive attitude every time. You yourself have been part of very many topics that had little or nothing to do with Bohra faith in general and I must say that you have been a very good contributor whatever the topic. Look at your initial few posts when you started one topic after another. Just look at those posts and ask yourself. Your style has changed a lot since, for better I might add and that is why I was disappointed to read what you had to write.

I think we should welcome all and not single out one sect. We are closer to you in our beliefs. Like Kaswani mentioned we are Muslims first, then Shia, then Ismailis before we went different ways.

If this site was only to discuss Bohra issues then they would not have created a separate room called Reformists with members only previleges.

What do you say Mr. Moderator/Admin?

[Average Bohra]

Originally posted by pardesi:
Dear Brother Seeker,
If this site was only to discuss Bohra issues then they would not have created a separate room called Reformists with members only previleges.

They did, but it has 6 posts in the last several months, and the last being almost a month ago.

This site and the Admin have been good about tolerating opposing views and hence the activity.

Originally posted by seeker110:
This is a dawoodi bohra site,here we discus our problems.I would like dawoodi bohras to post on the message board only.

I appreciate people on this board who don't agree with me, and most don't. If they did, I would not be here as preaching to the choir can get to be a chore.

[Average Bohra]

Pardesi,

I am sorry that I misread your post.

[feelgud]

Originally posted by Sajjad Sultan Ali Kaswani:
salam

let me remind u, 1st We are Muslims, then 2nd we are Shia, 3rd we are Jafari, 4th we are Ismaili , 5th we are Fatmid ... just diff is I am Nizari & you are Bohra..

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.â€

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Feelgood
AS

People like Keshwani and Pardeshi do not know much aout Qur'an. They are knee deep in Ginanas and Farmans. Instead of seeking help from Allah SWT, they parrot 'Ya Ali Madad'. When you tell them about eternal Qur'an they tell you about their living Qur'an. I wish they go away.

Wasalaam
.

[feelgud]

Only Allah knows hidden meanings-

003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Dear MF,
salam

016.064
YUSUFALI: And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.
029.018
YUSUFALI: "And if ye reject (the Message), so did generations before you: and the duty of the messenger is only to preach publicly (and clearly)."
024.054
YUSUFALI: Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
016.082
YUSUFALI: But if they turn away, thy duty is only to preach the clear Message
016.035
YUSUFALI: The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of messengers but to preach the Clear Message?
036.017
YUSUFALI: "And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message."

[Admin]

It's true that the "Bohra and Reform" forum is meant for discussing Bohra issues, but this has never been the case becuase discussions often branch off into different areas such Islam, science, philosophy, current affairs, etc. and it is difficult to keep track of each and every thread. So, it's okay if non-bohras discuss non-bohra issues in the is particular forum so long as the discussion is open and civil and does not degenrate into a propaganda for one particular sect or group or personality.

Everybody is welcome to participate on this message board but we'll appreciate if topics are opened and discussed in their relevant forums.

[Muslim First]

Br. Pardesi wrote:

Salaam, Ya Ali Madad, Ya Allah Madad. Take your pick.

A true Muslim will always pick first or last one. If he picks middle one then he is asking somebody other then Allah to help him (please spare me with an argument that Ali is one of 99 names of Allah. I do not understand why some people insist on putting labels on them by having distinct salutations!

Wasalaam
.