Pearls from Waaz

[truemumin]

and you are a true non-mumin. may allah help you someday. aameen

[Aarif]

and you are a true non-mumin.

Definition of true non-mumin according to true mumin

1) One who wants to know the truth and is not afraid of asking questions.
2)One who wants to know where does his hard earned money go (which is nothing according to True-Mumin).
3) One who has compassion for his fellow community members.
4) One who wants to see Dawoodi Bohras always progressing
5) One who wants the community to get rid of internal corruption.

Believe me I am better off as a true non-mumin then a true mumin who does not care about all this.

[truemumin]

Imam did not authorized you to police bohras. It is the job of Dai who is authorized by imam

[Aarif]

Imam did not authorized you to police bohras. It is the job of Dai who is authorized by imam

Asking how my money is used for the benefit of the community = Policing bohras

Your logic is extra-ordinary. I give up brother. You win...

Also, you are right about kotharis policing bohras. They definitely act like police officials when you go to meet them. They interrogate you properly to find out how much money you are making etc so that they can extract maximum out of you. I am glad that true mumins like you have started admitting this fact.

[humble_servant_us]

It is the job of Dai who is authorized by imam

Can prove your above statement in the light of Quran and Hadis. Please give references from your book/sources to understand how Dai is authorised by Imam.

Whomever i have met so far follow the Dai because they have seen their forefathers do it or the society has potrayed this repeatedly in their minds that Dai is authorised by Imam without any proof from holy book or hadis of prophet(pbuh).

As we have researched and debated on the Imamat issue of Ali(as), have we ever questioned ourselves on acceptance of dai and his office.

[Muslim First]

Br. Truemomin

You wrote:

For example two times namaz in one time (zohr-asar) and (maghrib-isha) was started after rasullah by an imam and we follow it.

Can you name that Imam?

Br. Porus

You can help if you know name of that Imam and relevent Hadith.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

truemumin is incorrect.

We have established in a separate discussion, that the practise (of combining prayers) was started by Rasulullah himself. MF, please do not start this discussion all over again.

truemumin, from his posts so far. appears to be not very well informed on the religion of Bohras. He has 'popular' orthodox understanding, which would be simply unacceptable in 'intellectual' discussion.

[Muslim First]

Br. Porus

JAK

See this is why I am here to correct facts from fiction which is Bohra and Agakhani religion.
.

[Muslim First]

We have established in a separate discussion, that the practise (of combining prayers) was started by Rasulullah himself.

Fact of matter is Rasulullah prayed 5 separate prayes most of times and but there are also Ahadith reporting that he combined prayers on those occassions.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

... fiction which is Bohra and Agakhani religion

All religions are based on myth, legend, magic and superstition to varying degrees. Ismaili and Bohra religion share these characteristics with Islam.

To be contemptuous of a religion because you have been "brainwashed" into a different religion is being bigoted and silly.

The process of using knowledge and insight of other cultures to gain a deeper underestanding of Islam was most advanced in the middle ages among Ismailies. While Bohras have stagnated, this process is continuing amongst modern Ismailies.

Think of it as a cornucopia. Flowering means getting out of a cone. Most puritans are engaged in descending futher into the cone into darkness of ignorance.

[Muslim First]

Porus JAK

[anajmi]

Br. Muslim First,

Do not get involved with porus in a war of words. He says a lot of complicated stuff which doesn't make any sense and wouldn't stand on 5 legs with a little bit of scrutiny.

Truemumin is right as far as bohra beliefs are concerned. Combining prayers was not a practice of the prophet. It was an exception. No one was able to present a single hadith where the prophet made combining prayers a practice. There isn't even a command from Hazrat Ali to combine prayers. One needs to dig deep into taawil (something about descending further into some cone comes to mind) to come up with these commandments.

Let me give you an example of the deeper understanding of Islam that these kuffar pretending to be the shia have developed. According to them, Hazrat Ali is supposed to have called his mother "O Humeira of Iram" and a murderer. Now, would you believe a person of Hazrat Ali's stature degrading himself to this state for the sake of kingship and kingdom? This is the flowering of these gate keepers of knowledge.

[Muslim First]

Welcome back Br. Anajmi

[Muslim First]

While Bohras have stagnated, this process is continuing amongst modern Ismailies.

here is example:

Reincarnation in Islam

Chauda Bhavan

A Doctrine of Noor

Read the Quran or follow the speaking Quran.

I can post more.

Wasalaam
.

[anajmi]

Thanks Br. Muslim First,

The deeper understanding of the Ismaili flowers is so deep that even they can't find it. Try getting an explanation of any ayah of the quran and see how deep you have to go!!

[accountability]

Brother porous: One thing that trumumin brought up, I hope you can clarify it.

"Dai is appointed by imam." I am of the opinion, that Dai is appointed by nass, or will of his predecessor.

[porus]

Dai is appointed by Nass by his immediate predecessor.

Hurratul Malika, a ruler in Yemen, was a hujjat appointed by Imam Mustansir. Hujjat was a position higher that that of a Dai. Following the murder of Imam Aamir, Imam Tayyib disappeared. In the circumstances, Hurratul Malika appointed Zuaib bin Musa as the first Dai with complete authority over Fatimid (Tayyibi) Daawat. He was known as Dai al-Mutlaq. As Dai al-Mutlaq, he acted with full authority of the Imam, and this authority included the appointment of his successor as Dai al-Mutlaq, process known as nass.

During the intervening 900 years doctrinal development amongst Bohras have rendered Imam irrelevant. Whatever you say about Imam, such as quran natiq, maasum now applies without resevation to the Dai al-Mutlaq. So, the Dai is, for all practical purposes the Imam.

The official position is that the Dai is the Naa'ib of Imam in satr(hiding). That Dai is in communication with hidden Imam is most certainly a myth.

[porus]

To clarify a bit.

When Imam Mustansir appointed Hurratul Malika as the Hujjat to be in charge of daawat in Yemen, he had also appointed a Dai to assist her. The latter died during the confusion following the murder of Imam Aamir. It was during this period that Hurratul Malika exercised her authority on behalf of the Imam to appoint the first Dai al-Mutlaq. So, we can assume that all Dais derive their authority from Hujjat rather than directly from Imam.

[truemumin]

If you are holding a rope and hanging on it, the part in your hands will be connected to the top through all of the particles in between and you arte hanging because of the combined force of all chain. If you are intelligent enough you can understand what i mean

And allah never used to communicate directly with rasullah. Jibraeel used to come and communicate. Will it mean that you doubt on rasuallah (SAW) also whether he was a nabi appointed by allah or not?

[SBM]

rasuallah (SAW) also whether he was a nabi appointed by allah or not?

Truemumin

No one can dispute the appointment of Prophet(pbus) because it is in the Quran and the Kalema you recite clearly says that Mohammed is his Rasool

[porus]

allah never used to communicate directly with rasullah

Not quite true. There is another process, called wahi, which is a direct communication, I understand that Wahi bypasses angels.

[Aarif]

Brother Porus,

Your knowledge about the history of Dawoodi Bohra Dais and Imams is excellent. I am sure you would be having some good sources for the same. For the benefit of people like me can you please let us know any literature in terms of books etc that is available and which can be purchased for better understanding of the history of our community.

Thanks,
Aarif

[truemumin]

Not quite true. There is another process, called wahi, which is a direct communication, I understand that Wahi bypasses angels

==============================================

Not true. Wahi always came through jibrail. See history

Dai is a string through which you connect to allah via-imam. If you don't accept it then you are already at wrong track and your way is nowhere

[porus]

Aareef,

I suggest you start with two books which, I believe are available through Amazon.com.

1. The Bohras by Asghar Ali Engineer (ISBN 0-7069-6921-9)

I believe that the book has recently been updated and the ISBN may have changed. I have the copy published in 1993 by Vikas publishing House, New Delhi. This is an excellent source of Fatimid history as well as the history of Bohras in India.

2. The Ismailies by Farhad Daftary (ISBN 0-521-42974-9)

This book has a lot of material about Bohras. Very scholarly.

Both these books have plenty of references to both original ansd secondary sources.

[truemumin]

Huh. You refer to asghar engineer and you think that whatever burhanuddin maula tells in waaz is not correct. How do you believe that asghar engr book is authenticated

[porus]

Wahi always came through jibrail.

Wahi that came through Jibrail is the Quran.

You should ask your source, a local aamil, about different types of wahi, especially those sayings of the Prophet that are not part of the Quran.

[porus]

truemumin,

Whatever Burhanuddin Mawla says in waez is quite "correct". He mixes myth and legend with facts.

When you separate facts from myth, you will find that the fatimid and early bohra history as told by Asgharali Engineer agrees with what Mawla says.

Indeed, there are contoversial passages on Engineer's book especially regarding more recent Bohra history. And you are invited to disagre with it on this forum by presenting its criticism.

[truemumin]

When you tell other peoples to read a certain book, if it is not authenticated then obviously peoples may take wrong meaning from it as per their own wisdom. You yourself have accepted that the book contains controversies which you judged as per your wisdom

So the question is, who has the authority to authenticate the books which we can read ?

[porus]

So the question is, who has the authority to authenticate the books which we can read ?

You do not need any authority to authenticate any book that you wish to read.

All authors publish under their own authority. It is for them to justify what they are writing by providing references and arguments in support of their views.

You are free to read them and, if you disagree with them, you are free to level objections against them. (I am talking here about free societies, of course)

If you are looking for authentication from Dai before reading every book you wish to read, you will die a poor person, indeed.

[truemumin]

i don't understand your logic. In this way even you cannot confirm that quran is authenticated because there are several books on net from non muslims which are against quran. You believe quran because of rasuallah and because there is no dispute of rasuallah for you peoples

When i quote from vaaz you peoples say that it is myth, unbelievable etc. and make a mockery of it. And you can refer to other books without being authenticated. How is it possible. Please note that this is not physics or chemistry that we are talking about. This is religion and if you don't have wisdom to understand then you cannot understand and justify anything

You can read books or knowledge, but you cannot believe on those books which are not authenticated like you can believe quran but you cannot believe bible