Pearls from Waaz

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#121

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:28 pm

Notice truemumin writes Allah in lower case allah!!!!

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#122

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:56 pm

Brother Truemumin,

My two cents..

I think that books can be just used as guides. You cannot verbatim go by books all the times. You also have to use your own judgement when it comes to believing or not believing in something. E.g. if a religous book says that if you will kill 100 people you will definitely go to heaven. Now a sensible person with common sense will not agree with this. So when I read any book particularly on religion it is very important for my heart to accept whatever is written in it as truth. If I do not accept it no one can force me to do so... Similarly as dawoodi bohras we accept the post of Dai. However, even without reading any books if you will pause for a moment and think with a open mind you will realize that the current administration is not doing what it is suppose to do in the best interest of the community. As I have said earlier whatever is said in waez or sabaks has a pre-decided motive behind it. So please do not take it as the final word on anything. Use your own judgement and wisdom before blindly accepting whatever you hear.

Brother Porus,
Thanks for the information.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#123

Unread post by porus » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:11 pm

Any book can be misunderstood and misinterpreted, even the 'authenticated' one.

You will need to trust your own intellect, a God-given gift. And not let it be a tool for exploitation by others for their own agenda.

As they say, use it or lose it.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#124

Unread post by truemumin » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:13 pm

Mr. Porus

To be balanced with your judgement, as you said several things are controversial which you think are not correct against dawat in engineer's book, please bring it into notice here

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#125

Unread post by porus » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:50 pm

When I said that some issues are controversial in Dr Engineer's book, I meant that some may not agree with his views and may have alternative viewpoint.

I was primarily referring to Chapters on the History of the Reform Movement and The Revolt in Udaipur. Beyond that, I cannot say anything. You will need to read the book yourself and come to your own conclusions.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#126

Unread post by accountability » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:58 pm

Notice "truemumin writes Allah in lower case allah!!!! ".

You seem to be a truemumin too. I sometime write allah in lower case. Allah is above and beyond that.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#127

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:59 pm

Asghar Ali Engineer's book has been around for nearly three decades. The "controversial" passages are controversial in that they expose the bohra priesthood as a corrupt and ruthless clique.

The events and facts in these chapters, although presented from the reformist point of view, are stuff of history and are generally accepted as true. In all these years there has been no credible rebuttal on the part of the priesthood to present its own point of view. But then, it doesn't have to. It knows that it has a gullible, dumbed-down flock that will believe anything. And truemumin is here to prove it.

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#128

Unread post by truemumin » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:24 pm

The events and facts in these chapters, although presented from the reformist point of view, are stuff of history and are generally accepted as true
=========================================

By writing above you are also acting as a "gullible, dumbed-down flock that will believe anything"

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#129

Unread post by SBM » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:28 pm

Truemumin
You said earlier that you live in Gulf state
but your posting at 4.24 pm which is almost mid night in Middle East so exactly where are you located? Why it is important I will let you after I get your reply.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#130

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:38 pm

You said earlier that you live in Gulf state
but your posting at 4.24 pm which is almost mid night in Middle East so exactly where are you located? Why it is important I will let you after I get your reply.
I know why you are asking him this question. Your guess is that he is in US. And if he is he has no right to ask you questions on tax money. I am sorry if I spoiled your James Bond flick ;)

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#131

Unread post by porus » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:29 pm

All times are ET (USA). It says so at the bottom left hand corner. It is about 7:30 pm. If I was postiing from India where it is 6 am, it will still show 7:30 pm.

makberi
Posts: 327
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#132

Unread post by makberi » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:26 am

talking of books, i was reading abt the secretive Druze community which are based in Syria, Lebanon etc ...for those who dont know The Druze believe Imam Hakim to be sort of a Demi God....though they are very secretive abt their beliefs, so its not clear if its similar to our view that the Imams are of ruhaani status...they believe Imam Hakim is in purdah...they also have Dai, Mazoon, Mukasir...but the status is below the Imam and 13 apostles of the Imam....they also believed Imams existed during the time of Prophets i.e. thre were Imams between Musa and Isa nabi.....they also have a system of Misak....i managed to get a translation of the Misak ....n their misak also asks one to pass over one's soul and all of one's mney to the Imam if he demands to do so...but do notice it asks to pass on to the Imam...just wanted to share wat i read

truemumin
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#133

Unread post by truemumin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:23 am

See this happens when you read books by yourself without raza or if you read high end books without a teacher (I am not talking about this Druze community book which you read because this is kind of general knowledge book and not a religious book)
You can even derive separate religions out of it as per "your wisdom" same like this Druze community and hence go to kufur. And money to imam. See thats what i wrote before that if imam is there he can even ask you for your lifetime savings. Dai just ask for some and that too is a problem for you. Imam is in hiding so Dai takes meesaq on behalf of imam so all conditions are same as if you are giving meesaq to imam

Alislam
Posts: 234
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#134

Unread post by Alislam » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:50 am

Truemumin,

This is simple kothari logic to bring imam into picture and say "If imam is present you guys would have to pay more, etc.,

Mismanagement of public fund for one's personal lavishes will never be correct irrespective of whoever does it.

People will pay even their life time savings for good cause but supporting a "so called Royal" family's expensive living, cannot be a good cause.

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#135

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:45 am

In matters of payment you say Dai can alter it and he is too kind than imam to ask less.

Why can't Dai not reduce other obligations in islam like the number of rakats in salaat or reduce the number of days of fasting in holy month, why everything revolves round money.

First of all Dai has no right to make halaal-e-muhammed(pbuh)haraam and vice versa. If i am due to pay $1 million i cannot pay a penny less, though more is always appreciable, your logic is reverse, doesn't make sense.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#136

Unread post by accountability » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:08 pm

makberi: You are right about Druze, they believe Imam Hakim to be in the Shabih of God ( shabih means mirror image). Their misaq and all the rituals are almost the same as ours. But they are in existence long before us.

I am of considered opinion, when misaq language was changed in Syedna Tahir Saifuddin's time, it was exacted by copying it from Druze misaq. One more thing, Druz do have taawil, haqiqat etc. Only no of chosen people are privy to taawil and haqiqat. The same is true for us.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#137

Unread post by accountability » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:22 pm

Trumumin: I have a question, you said, Imam is in pardah, do you mean he is in seclusion or hiding. If your answer is yes, then question arises, why and from what is hiding.

When Salahdin overthrew fatimid dynasty, and imam amir was murdered, there was a reason to hide next imam from enemies, thousand year after, there is no threat to imam, actually it is high time for imam to show, becuase world really needs his guidance. In recent past, Syedna Tahir Saifuddin and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin, used to perform Haazri, in qibla. The purpose of it was to demonstrate a link to imam. But since last decade, Syedna Saheb has given up hazri, so should we take, that he has severed ties with imam, or imam has again disappeared.

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin has made his four sons, including Qaid Johar Bhaisaheb, sole trustees of Dawate Hadiya Trust in england. Can we assume that this was as per direction of Imam. But the analogy is, Syedna Saheb's son hold no position in religion, even according to our own interpretation, so why were they made trustees of Dawat e hadiya. Dawat e hadiya is the Dawat of Imam in seclusion.

Try to answer with logic, and not with rhetorics.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#138

Unread post by porus » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:33 pm

there is no threat to imam
I think that the greatest threat to Imam, if he exists, would come from the Dai.

Hussain_KSA
Posts: 874
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#139

Unread post by Hussain_KSA » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:35 am

Brother Makberi & Brother Accountibility,

Daruz are mainly resided in Lebnon and some part of syria. What you have written about Imam Hakeem and their other traditions are true.

I just want to add that they don't involve themselve in any religious bindings like prayer or fasting etc till the age of 40 and very few of them start thinking about that even after 40 years of their age.

Concept of meesaque exist but no more in practice. The total number doesn't exceed more than 1.5 lakhs (unofficially) as most of them has converted to shia ithnaashri.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#140

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:49 pm

Truemomin wrote:
See this happens when you read books by yourself without raza or if you read high end books without a teacher
Poor Bohras!!!
.

SAJJAD
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#141

Unread post by SAJJAD » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:12 pm

“Tell me one thing. What are you going to do with your "hard earned" money this year? Take it to God and tell him, hey god, take me inside heaven because I have so much money??? And I tell you what, guaranteed that God will you will be kicked out. Or will you take your money into your grave?”

The above quote from truemumin is senseless and ridiculous. This is what the current kothari regime has led the masses to believe.

Why don’t you ask the same question to your mulla burhanuddin? Why in the hell is he still so hungry and stingy about money for himself? The old man is almost 98 years old and is still wandering all over the world robbing bohri flocks to make and collect more money without regard of the welfare of the average bohra. Burhanuddin and his dogs live lavishly and travel all over the world at the expense of community’s hard earned money. Truemumin, your salaam is paying for their first class seat! He and his ‘bap’ have collected billions of rupees during the past 100 years by imposing all kind of taxes, new innovations and tortures.

I think true mumin is a kothari paid henchman in disguise. Instead of true mumin as he claims, he should be recognized a “true kafir”. He praises and heavily worships the old man like a God. He elevates and compares him like past pious Arabs saints (Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) and his Ahl Bayt). Truemumin in his postings always condemns the three Khalifa and curses them without any knowledge or how they were related to Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.). That is what your burhanuddin teaches--to curse every body that stands up against the bullshit spewed out from Kothar. The reality is that the present regime and burhanuddin act like a Yazid and they are the ones we should be cursing because they are tyrants and oppressors.

Burhanuddin is most responsible and should be questioned about the misuse of community money and affairs. He is ignoring everything deliberately for his own benefit and to support his mafia kothar, which is a multi-million dollar empire.

africawalla
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#142

Unread post by africawalla » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:46 pm

Sajad,

You have so much venom, please refrain from critising the Dai otherwise do not interfere in our affairs , we believe in our Dai thus we are bohras. If you critise the Kothar machinery and the people around that who are milking it then you have a point.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#143

Unread post by accountability » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:07 pm

truemumin, you did not answer my question. Should I take it as your concurrance of my above post.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#144

Unread post by accountability » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:19 pm

Porous: Hazri began in Syedna Tahir Saifuddin's time, or was it in practice before him. Do we have any precedence or intellectual basis. Or if it was a made up for the cases pending in different courts at that time.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#145

Unread post by porus » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:39 am

accountability,

I am not sure what you mean by 'Hazri'?

Did you mean salawaat/fateha for Abbas Alamdaar? I have no knowledge about when that particular rasam began? But salawaat/fateha for Abbas have been invoked for centuries.

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#146

Unread post by accountability » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:32 pm

Porous: In my childhood, i still remember, Syedna burhanuddin was visiting karachi, after namaz, a curtain was drawn on qibla. I inquired it from some one, and i was told that bawa saheb is in imam's hazri. Syedna Burhanuddin continued this for some time, and then suddenly he abondoned it.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#147

Unread post by porus » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:58 pm

accountability,

I dont know why a curtain should be drawn over mehrab while Sayedna is in it, but saying that "he was meeting Imam" sounds like popular hocus-pocus to me. I have never heard of such thing. I intend to make enquiries. If I find anything, I will post it here.

Aarif
Posts: 1426
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#148

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:05 pm

a curtain was drawn on qibla. I inquired it from some one, and i was told that bawa saheb is in imam's hazri. Syedna Burhanuddin continued this for some time, and then suddenly he abondoned it.
I have also heard about this. In fact I was told that he is talks to the Imam behind the curtain and only he can see him and talk to him. Hence, this curtain has to exist when he is talking.

bohraji
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#149

Unread post by bohraji » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:25 am

Salaam All,
I remember this conversation taking place in my home between us cousins.Then my father intervened and told us that the purdah was drawn for two reasons.
1-After namaz a person usually stays in sajda asking for dua,this is a time taking process for most of us and usually very personal,so the purdah prevents the Dai from being disturbed.
2- In the presence of the dai,a person has to first walk backwards a few steps before turning around and taking leave.This is a sign of respect followed in the east at the erstwhile royal courts and also at dargahs.The purdah acts as a barrier (wall) and allows the large number of namazis to leave quickly and directly without the tradition.This purdah tradition maintains the respect and enables the masjid crowd to leave fast.

Interestingly the same thing was told to us later in the mosque bayan when a 'sahib e dawat' had come to our city and he had dismissed the meeting with the Imam as rumours.
TC

accountability
Posts: 1640
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Pearls from Waaz

#150

Unread post by accountability » Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:33 pm

truemumin, I am still waiting for your answer. Please reply.