Clarity in the reform philosophy!!!

[truebohra]

Mr JC, LM.
I dont know whether any muslim whether shia or sunni wud agree with u. Prophets were not just leaders but chosen one by the allah to deliver his message. There are many ayahs in quran that prove them. but then u (LM) consider Quran as product of human imagination. I dont know whether to call u Muslim or otherwise coz even if u may recite kalematus shahdat in essence you dont beleive in it. what u talk like is rational atheist.

[makberi]

Originally posted by JC:


God lives inside everybody
.

I think the phrase quoted above shows that Mr JC have a more Sufi view of Islam....n being a rationalist myself....i dont really seem to understand.....i have been hearing the above phrase or smethin like it since Class 2..but wat exactly does the above philosophy propogate....that God is a perfect being....n that Man can achieve God by bringing out the perfection within himself...

[like_minded]

Originally posted by truebohra:
Mr JC, LM.
I dont know whether any muslim whether shia or sunni wud agree with u. Prophets were not just leaders but chosen one by the allah to deliver his message. There are many ayahs in quran that prove them. but then u (LM) consider Quran as product of human imagination. I dont know whether to call u Muslim or otherwise coz even if u may recite kalematus shahdat in essence you dont beleive in it. what u talk like is rational atheist.

Who cares about SHIAS or SUNNIS, and by the way, what have these two sects achieved being muslims, or believing/following the Prophet??

The best example is the state of affairs in Iraq, and to an extent even Pakistan, where sunnis and shias are killing each other., all in the name of religion!!

Whats the point of religion, if it cannot inspire the followers to live in peace and harmony? To practice equality? To respect LIFE??

Just calling oneself Muslim (sunnis/shias)by believing in the prophet and Quran and not being able to raise the level of understanding is sheer ignorance.

[like_minded]

Makberi,

A simple answer to your query....

God/Goodness is inside every human being, just bring it out, dont bother about achieving anything.

Just go through the lyrics of the song "RETURN TO INNOCENCE" by Enigma. Its so refreshing.

[makberi]

Nice song.....but at times i believe such an approach to life can be quite Pacifist....or rather escapist......as the song says....."Jus believe in Destiny"........

[like_minded]

Just live your life, with goodness in heart, because that goodness is so strong that it stops all your unwanted searches and fills your heart with love and happiness.

[JC]

Brothers

And thanks LM

I believe people do not want to understand the concept that God is Within - if you believe in Oneness of God that is search inside you and try to bring out the good inside, propogate, preach and PRACTICE, that will only make world a peaceful place to live.

As Bro LM, I donot care about Suni or Shia or even Muslim or Christian, or Communist or Atheist, to me RELIGION IS THE GREAT DIVIDE

And yes, Prophets were only leaders in their times, that is it. Quran is a book written by one of the greatest leaders, a true statesman and that is it - please do not attach the concept of Godness to it. Many others have written books on science, phillosophy, technology, engineering, economics, laws, accounting and tons of others - many have invented stuff from neddle to rocket - HOW?? coz they searched from within, they thought and created and invented!!! Does this make them Gods or Prophets - NO, they were human beings, like all os us - but offcourse with better thoughts and judgement. Mohammad, Hussain, Issa, Eienstien, Graham Bell, Edison - they were all great people with varied degrees of greatness.

The problem with human beings today is that they want a GOD, they need some GODS to bow to, cry to, ask for hlep, blame him, thank you and alike. For this, people like Burhan and his fathers and Aga Khans came forward and gave them this consolation - they showed masses a Picture of God, a Link to God, a connection, to sum up, an easy and simple way TO GOD - and people bought that!!! and now they are paying the PRICE. It is just marketing of Idea of God, there is demand for a God and God-Like and people have started supplying God-Likes.

[like_minded]

Bro JC,

I fully endorse your views!!

[makberi]

Guys isnt this a politically correct way to say there is no God n one shud jus bring out the best within him.....u guys use the phrase"bring out the goodness of the heart"......i say"bring out the best within himself to achieve perfection".....both are subjective phrases....yet i believe both mean the same thing......so u guys basically dont believe in the existence of an "external" "powerful" force who created n runs the world......

[anajmi]

JC,

And yes, Prophets were only leaders in their times, that is it. Quran is a book written by one of the greatest leaders, a true statesman and that is it - please do not attach the concept of Godness to it. Many others have written books on science, phillosophy, technology, engineering, economics, laws, accounting and tons of others - many have invented stuff from neddle to rocket - HOW?? coz they searched from within, they thought and created and invented!!!

I don't see why people don't understand that this comparison is flawed if you do not believe that the Quran is from Allah? Do you know why? If you do not attach Allah to the quran, quran becomes a book of fiction. Prophet Muhammad becomes a writer of fiction amongst those that wrote science, phillosophy, technology, engineering, economics, laws, accounting and tons of others. Unless of course you believe that science, phillosophy, technology, engineering, economics, laws, accounting and tons of others are also fiction.

[JC]

Anajmi

To me nothing is fiction and nothing is perfect. Whatever has been researched and written todate is a mixture - ideas, dreams, facts and figures and lessons learnt from history.

If 1000 years back flying was fiction, today it is a reality. So what was fiction yesterday, is fact today and what we dream today, may become reality tomorrow.

Mohammad wrote a book - Quran, people at that time and age will not accept simply that fact that he had written a book, a code, a law, a system and his desires and dreams and his wish list. He was one of the most intelligent persons world has even seen, he was far sighted and knew that he will not be able to sell his ideas simply. However, there was this idea of God and Idols. So he became an Avtar, Someone from God, not in the shape of idol, but in the shape of flash and blood. He knew that if people can buy the idea of Idols as God, he would be recognized as Prophet from God. And yes, you can very well argue, that this idea of 'being prophet' was used before, so it is not a sole idea of Mohammad, yes, it was a borrowed idea.

Who and how did Newton came with the Idea and Law of Gravity? He could have claimed Prophethood and said it was Wahee which has explained and taught him Law of Gravity. He did not claim that. He was an intelligent person and time was reipe to say things without the attachment of God to it. On the other note - I can argue - that was that not from God?? The brain and ideas come from God as per you He has created everything and everything goes by His wishes and desires. What Eiestien said, whatever Suqrat-Buqrat said, and whatever other people invented, could have claimed prophethood - they did not. So what was that?? How come Adam Marshall came up with idea of Economics, how 'Republic' was written??

So what I am saying is that, may be there is a Super Power or Supreme Commadar - but every human being is prophet in himself or herself, and some how, each of us recieve our Wahee in one way or other.

And we will keep on challanging ourselves and old theories in the light of new developments and idea. With passage of time and age, things will improve, we will change and evolve.

[Asghar Ali Engineer]

There is no where such belief that Imam appoints the da'i. Except the first few da'is of Yemen no other da'i was in touch with Imam and no one knows Imam's whereabout ever since.

No Indian da'i (Da'wat was transferred to India during the 18th da'i's time) ever claimed that he was in contact with the Imam. The belief is that there is Imam on earth and since we do not know his name we call him Imamuz Zaman (Imam of the time). How can then one say that Imam appoints the da'i? It is the Da'i who appoints his successor. It is done fairly in advance but the present da'i though of 95 years' old is still to appoint his successor.

Da'i is certainly not infalliable (m'asum) and can make mistakes. Also, there were so many disputes about succession and Bohras split into Sulaimanis, Alawis etc.

It is for anyone to see what loot is going on by the Kothar. Does it need any proof. You ask the victims and you would know.

[porus]

What is astounding is that:
if the Dai is, for all practical purposes, the Imam,
if the Dai does everything that Imam would do,
then why is the Dai not in hiding?

[porus]

Once in London, England, I was discussing with some friends the concept of 'freehold' as it applied to properties in the UK.

The concept is that you hold the land free at the pleasure of the Queen, who is the only real owner of all lands in the UK. In theory, she can claim it back without any compensation. In practice, if her government decides to take over your land and the home which stands on it, she gives some compensation, usually the 'market value' of your home, as determined by her government.

Our own Royal Family has taken the leaf out of the perverse Brits and are claiming everything that belongs to Bohras as being owned by Sayedna.

Whilst all homes are still in individual Bohra's names, the communal property is all in Sayedna's name. This has foolproof wealth-building potential.

Out of the money collected from Bohras, he buys a markaz/masjid saying this is Qard-e-hasana. The Jamaat members are then asked to repay the the buying price of the property which is in Sayedna's name. And they pay up.

The property appreciates in value and, in addition, it is Sayedna's personal investment which allows all Jamaat functions to take place, an excellent opporunity to fill the coffers for evermore. In North America, the markaz location attracts Bohras to buy homes near it, which guarantees continuous income for the upkeep of the property and for Sayedna's coffers.

What a scheme! I take my hat off. i feel like doing Qadam Bosi.

[Average Bohra]

Out of the money collected from Bohras, he buys a markaz/masjid saying this is Qard-e-hasana. The Jamaat members are then asked to repay the the buying price of the property which is in Sayedna's name. And they pay up.

In addition to that they pay for the use of such property ! Even though this is a business enterprise, there is no such parallel I know of in real business, only cults. With the money you give to the Dai he buys a case of Coke (24 cans), it is then announced that the Dai has just donated a case of Coke for the betterment of the community. He then charges you when you consume one can and again when you dispose of the can, all the while the consumer appreciates the free Coke from the Dai, feels blessed with the charitable offering, reveres his philanthropy and proceeds to give him more $ for the many "benefits" bestowed upon them.

Forget Qadam Bosi, how do I get in on this gig ?

[humane]

In my area, the Amil has stressed it many a times that NASS will take place through ILHAM to the Dai. In which the Imam will tell the Dai whom to appoint. I think that reveals that Dai is not in physical touch with the Imam but through spiritual contact. So what you claim, they also agree to it.

Bro. Porus.

I assume you have better knowledge of hidden meanings which I guess you have aquired through Sabaks. Can you elaborate, assuming the Dai is not doing duties, what the Imam is doing?

And to Anajmi: What is Allah doing?

[humane]

Should we assume that they too are not doing their duties?

[makberi]

in one vaaz i attended in Dubai syedna claimed that angels have descended n they have communicated to him that the matam of the ppl present is qubul.....if the syedna interacts with angels...surely he shud have contact with the imam...lol.......

[anajmi]

humane,

And to Anajmi: What is Allah doing?

I'm sorry. I don't understand the question even though it sounds pretty straight forward. What is Allah doing right now? or What is Allah doing while the kotharis are swindling the bohras? If it is the latter, then personally I think there are much bigger issues right now than a bunch of idiots who are getting conned by a bunch of thieves.