Ismaili mazhab

[anajmi]

pardesi,

T h e p o i n t I w a s t r y i n g t o m a k e w a s t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f s e e k i n g k n o w l e d g e o f o t h e r r e l i g i o n s a s w e l l.

Now that is true Ismaili talk. Illegible. Ignore the rules of the language and expect others to understand. Slowing down is ok, but try to maintain understandability.

Now, you lost your chance to explain why Hazrat Ali referred only to the Bible and the Old Testament. According to the Ismailis, it is because there were no Hindus in Arabia. Typical Ismaili answer. The pagans of Arabia weren't following Christianity or Judaism. Infact their beliefs were closer to the Hindus. Idol worshipping. The reason Hazrat Ali chose to mention those two books was because these two are also books revealed by Allah. The laws of the Bible and the Old Testament (the original ones as revealed by Allah and not the corrupted ones that we have today) are also the laws of Allah.

The Ismaili extrapolation, which now involves the morphing of their Hazar Imam into the 10th Avataar of Krishna is nothing but pandering or their conversion to Hinduism!!

[pardesi]

Please, Anajmi, save your breadth. The reason why I wrote my post spaced out was to "literally" slow you down. I had the letters spaced and the words double spaced but when I submitted my post it showed up like that. MF didn't have a hard time reading and understanding, how come you had a problem?

"The pagans of Arabia weren't following Christianity or Judaism. Infact their beliefs were closer to the Hindus. Idol worshipping."

Now why would Ali judge between the pagans with Bible or Torah? It is specifically mentioned in his sermon that he would decide in the matter of christians according to bible and decide in the matter of jews according to their book. You need to get with the program! My point was to study and learn about other religions as well, like Ali did. Besides, you are right, it would be fair to say that hindus were not his subjects. He was khalifa of muslims lands including greater arabian peninsula, syria and egypt and parts of persia. There were pagans, still around, but hardly any hindus that I have heard of. Besides, he was addressing the muslim congregation, not pagans or the christians/jews when he said that.

One more thing, do you think Ali said he would decide according to the real Bible and Torah or according to the corrupted ones? If he were to use the "real" bible and Torah, then he must know what was in the real books revealed by Allah, right? Since you are so intelligent, I am sure you would know the answer to this one too. Both those books had been corrupted already. Go figure.

Instead of locking horns with me and making an issue out of nothing, why don't you try and help out your buddy. He needs someone to get him out of a tight spot he loudmouthed himself into by calling the father of the Prophet an idol worshipper and a kaafir, nauzubillah. He has gone missing ever since.

I am awaiting his explanation and an apology for showing the true Wahhabi colors before I go any further on this thread.

[anajmi]

Muslim First is capable enough to deal with idiots and doesn't need my help. I am not going to get distracted from locking horns with you.

One more thing, do you think Ali said he would decide according to the real Bible and Torah or according to the corrupted ones?

So according to the Ismailis Hazrat Ali wouldn't have been able to distinguish between the corrupted books and those revealed by Allah and would've simply decided using the books available in the market at that time?

Study and learn all religions. Hazrat Ali didn't claim to be an Avataar of Jesus or Moses because he knew the bible and the torah!!

I have no issue with studying all religions. I study and learn all religions. I learn the religion followed by the Ismailis too. Doesn't mean I will call the Imam of my mosque as the living Avataar of the living conman!! Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam.

[pardesi]

"So according to the Ismailis Hazrat Ali wouldn't have been able to distinguish between the corrupted books and those revealed by Allah and would've simply decided using the books available in the market at that time?

Do I see you dancing around? You look ugly, Najmi. That was a question I asked you based on your earlier statement, you idiot!

Now please, go do something your mullah taught you to fetch absolute sawab. You are accupying precious bytes on this website.

[anajmi]

pardesi,

I am glad to appear ugly to you. Truth always appears ugly to falsehood. I hope to get even uglier. Now, this

So according to the Ismailis Hazrat Ali wouldn't have been able to distinguish between the corrupted books and those revealed by Allah and would've simply decided using the books available in the market at that time?

was question that I asked based on your earlier question, you Ismaili.

Now when you can stop dancing around for a few seconds, answer the same. I asked a lot of questions in my previous posts and you were unable to answer any, which is not surprising. I know you won't be able to answer this either, but I am going to give you a chance to shoot yourself in the foot one more time.

[pardesi]

Your tricks wont work on me. Your are desperately trying to change the topic of discussion, aren't you?

For now I shall await an apology from MF to the whole muslim ummah for his blasphemous comments about the father of our Prophet. Care to comment on that?

You may open up another thread with a subject more suited to your line of questioning and wait for my answer there.

[Muslim First]

Br. Pardesi

Y Allah M

Let me clear your understanding.

I worte:

If Islam needed to borrow from other religion then why did Prophet SAW destroyed deities of his father’s religion?

Only person of limited understanding will assume that I was hinting at Prophet SAW's Father Abdulla's religion.

Father's religion here is meant to be his tribe Qureysh and other tribe’s religion (pre Islam).

Religion Prophet's father and Uncle, who sheltered Prophet is not a issue but fact is clear that it was not Islam, religion of Prophet and 1.3 billion Muslims (not including Ismailis). Prophet pleaded with his Uncle on his death bed to say Shahada. He refused and clung to his religion. Prophet refused to visit his mother’s grave until he was permitted by Allah SWT.

People of Qureysh were disbelievers in Islam. Why I am saying it? Here is:

Proof no. 1:

In his tafseer of Surah Al-Kafirun Ibn Katheer writes:

This Surah is Surah of disavowal from the deeds of the idolaters. It commands a complete disavowal of that.

Allah’s statement: Say: “O disbelievers (109:1)includes every disbeliever on the face of earth, however, this statement is particularly directed towards the disbelievers of Qureysh. It has been said that in their ignorance they invited the Messenger of Allah SAW to worship their Idols for a year and they would in turn worship his God (Allah SWT) for a year. Therefore Allah revealed this Surah and in it commanded his Messenger SAW to disavow himself from their religion.

Proof no. 2

From Muhammad his life based on the earliest sources: by Martin Ling

This is in reference to Prophet’s wish that Hz Ali RA marry Fatema RA:

----- It was only in weeks which followed his (Prophet SAW) return from Badr that he became certain that the time had come and then he spoke words of encouragement to Ali in the wish that he should formally ask for her (Fatima) hand. Ali was at first hesitant on account of his extreme poverty. He had inherited nothing from his father, for the law of new religion (Islam) forbade a believer to inherit from a disbeliever .---
(Page 163, middle of second paragraph Paperback edition)


If Abu Talib was a believer then Hz. Ali could have inherited portion of his father’s wealth.

Please do not look for apologies from me.

Take care.

Y Allah M

[Muslim First]

Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam.

Correctly said br. anajmi.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

For now I shall await an apology from MF to the whole muslim ummah for his blasphemous comments about the father of our Prophet. Care to comment on that?

You should ask Martin Ling (and by extension Ibn Hisham of Sirah of Prophet)for apology for calling Ismaili Imam Abu Talib disbeliever (Kafir).

You should also ask Allah SWT for calling Qureysh unbelivers and revaling whole Sura.
Your Imam is God. He could issue farmaan nullifying Surah 109.

Y Allah M

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam.

Correctly said br. anajmi.

Wasalaam

Are you saying that the Holy Quran did not have ANY thing that was not previously revealed in the Old testament or other Holy books?? Would you also call that Un-Islamic??

[muhammad khan]

Dear MF and others (anajami, turbocanuck, and perdesi),

I was not trying to involve in this discussion, but since I was asked by MF I want to share some of my thoughts

First of all AKDN does not recognize Ismaili.net as the Ismaili website. But since Ismaili’s don’t believe in forcing people to follow what they want them to follow they are not going to force Ismaili.net to close the website. Majority of ismilies are progressive. There are a few orthodox Ismailis which you see them on Ismaili.net. Their percentage is very very less. But as all progressives believe in freedom. So they have the right to believe what they want. It is Allah who will judge their faith and not us.

Secondly – Do I believe in Des Avatar or do Ismailis believe in Des Avatar
I don’t believe in Des Avatar, a few indain Ismailis do.

For me Des Avatar fairytale is similar to the fairytales by Bukhari and Muslim. I don’t agree with both of them. But I do understand where they are coming from and I do respect both the sects.

Thirdly – Who is the real Scholar of Islam?

Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Ali, Burhanuddin, H. Ali, H. Hussain, Khalif Usman?

I think all of them are scholars, I just don’t agree with some of their views. Allah has show generosity on human kind and allowed them to understand Allah as per their experience and knowledge. Now, there is good chance that all these scholars are correct in their own ways. Allah knows the best.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam.

Correctly said br. anajmi.

Wasalaam

MF,

Are you sure it is a "unique Ismaili concept" and not Islamic? Let me ask you this -

- the way we teach our kids to learn to recite Quran by rocking back and forth, where did that come from?

- need to face a Qibla, where did that come from?

- some of the actions during the performance of ritual salaat, where have we seen those before?

- fasting, especially during Moharram and specifically on the 10th, whose practice was that before it was incorporated into Islam?

- Khums (1/5th of ones treasure)in the way of Allah,

- Cry of "Allah Akbar", who originated it?

- Cutting off of hands of thieves, who started it?

- the length and color of beard as a religious symbol (or fashion statement), where did we copy it from?

- the running between the two mountains during hajj, where did that come from?

- the tawaaf of Ka'aba, did Gabriel teach it to our Prophet?

- discouraging tawaaf of Ka'aba without clothes, who introduced it?

- compensation of killing someone by mistake (100 camels), when did it first start?

Islam adopted all these from the pagan era, or the jews and or christians. The list goes on and on and on.

[pardesi]

My dear Muslim First,

I read your last two posts addressed to me under this thread and I must say I was surprised to read it. The topic of our discussion was your comments about Prophet Mohammad’s father’s religion and I quote in your words:

“If Islam needed to borrow from other religion then why did Prophet SAW destroyed dieties of his fathers religion?”

You specifically mentioned the father of the Prophet. But in your response to my demand for apology you took a 180 degree turn and said the following to dodge the bullet:

“Father's religion here is meant to be his tribe Qureysh and other tribe’s religion (pre Islam).”

Now the idols of the deities that were kept in and around Ka’aba belonged to different pagan tribes, visiting as well as resident, not just Quresh. They were not owned by Abdullah or Abdul Muttalib for that matter. They were just the custodians of Ka’aba and one of the jobs entrusted to them was to look after the pilgrims during the time when the message of Islam had not reached Arabia.

All I read in your posts was how Abu Talib did not accept Islam and how Abu Talib did this and that and why Ali could not inherit his wealth, if there was any, quoting from Martin Lings. Who the hell is Martin Lings? The 5th Imam? Did he live at the time of Abdullah or Abu Talib? Are you going to base your arguments on some fragile writing of a 20th century writer who in turn based it on some ibn Hisham? Why are you even talking about Abu Talib? The topic was Abdullah, the idol worshipper and kaafir according to you! Please do not count Abu Talib as one of the pagans from the Quresh tribe. He fought those “disbelieving” Quresh all his life to protect the Prophet of Islam. I am going to post three links here for you to read about the life of the Prophet’s ancestors and their beliefs and religion. You are at liberty to call it some shia trash and throw it out the window but it sure sounds a lot better and pleasing the eyes reading than your garbage that you have posted in your defense.

Abu Talib – The Supporter of the Prophet
http://www.geocities.com/ahlulbayt14/abutalib2.html

Creation – scroll down to Abdul Muttalib, very interesting
http://al-islam1.org/lifeprophet/3.htm

Faith of the Ancestors of the Holy Prophet
http://al-islam1.org/lifeprophet/5.htm

For the sake of not allowing the insults to continue on the family of our beloved Prophet by you, I would like to end this discussion about the “idol worshipping” pagan family of our beloved Prophet. Allah knows what you wrote and what was going through your mind when you did that. May be it was a mistake or a slip of fingers on the keyboard or you were just overcome by hatred towards Ali and his father. You did not have balls to accept your mistake and ask for Allah’s forgiveness. I did it for you! Lets continue with other, more decent topics under this thread.

[turbocanuck]

Dear Pardesi,
Well said......now look for the ever-famous and predictable ..................Yup!! you got it!! the "Burqaslip", or better yet, a diversion of topic to guess who??

[Muslim First]

Who the hell is Martin Lings?

Ignorance is bliss for devients

Martin Lings

From then on, he wrote constantly. For Muslims, his masterpiece was Muhammad: His Life Based On The Earliest Sources (1983), for which he was decorated by Zia al-Haq, then president of Pakistan.

Among his 12 books was The Eleventh Hour (1987), a profound study of the spiritual crisis of the mod- ern world, for which he had prepared the ground with Ancient Beliefs And Modern Superstitions (1965), and What Is Sufism? (1975), a corrective to many mis- understandings about this aspect of Islam. Symbol And Archetype: A Study Of The Meaning Of Existence (1991) demonstrated his grasp of traditional symbolism.

His interest in the symbolism of colours found expression in his talent for gardening. From his home in Kent, he would search far and wide for a particular specimen, seeking, for example, a shade of blue that perfectly reflected the perfection of heaven.

Lings remained serene, tolerant and patient to the end. His wife survives him.

· Martin Lings (Abu Bakr Siraj Ad-Din), Islamic scholar, born January 24 1909; died May 12 2005


Also see

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ma ... gle+Search

Ibn Hisham
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Ib ... gle+Search

The life of Muhammad- Ibn Hisham
http://facweb.furman.edu/~ateipen/almus ... cerpt2.htm

Iqura--Read my friend
.

[Muslim First]

Br. anajmi

AS

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam.

This was your quote.

Partdesi has responded to it in his post of May 20, 2008 04:32 AM.

I will let you respond to it.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

M. Khan Posted

First of all AKDN does not recognize Ismaili.net as the Ismaili website.

Who care if it is official or not.

When Aga Con in presented as god on this site why it is not refuted by AKDN or progressive Agakhanis?

Do you attend JK?

Do progressive Agakhnis go to different place of Worship?

Do they participate in same religious rituals like Dua, Chantas, Niaz, Ghat pat ceremony etc. etc.?

M. Khan

Be a man

Go to Ismaili.net and tell them what you are saying. Straighten them out on Kalki Avatar.

Have Aga Con issue Farmaan regarding this.

Take care

[anajmi]

pardesi,

The adoption of those was a command from the prophet Muhammad and the prophet did nothing that wasn't a command of Allah in the first place. So if the prophet adopted some method of the jews, it was with the permission of Allah. The Ismailis are neither prophets nor do they directly receive commands from Allah.

[Muslim First]

Beard in Islam

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Be ... gle+Search

http://www.islam.tc/beard/

There are many other articles on the net.

Search and you will find it.

For a person who does not even know articles of Faith of Islamn no wonder he keep qwuestiong.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by anajmi:

The Ismailis are neither prophets nor do they directly receive commands from Allah.[/QB]

Yeah Only Wahhabi's and blood thirsty Sunni's are receiving a special frequency from Allah to mete out justice in form of Beheading, killing and torturing other human beings. They are the franchisees of Allah on this earth. They receive divine guidance through the even more "devine" teachings from the Sahabas.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Beard in Islam

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Be ... gle+Search

http://www.islam.tc/beard/

There are many other articles on the net.

Search and you will find it.

For a person who does not even know articles of Faith of Islamn no wonder he keep qwuestiong.

Dear Muslimo Fascist,
One "Qwuestion" for you. since the beard as far as you are concerned signifies looking like the Holy Prophet Muhammad pbuh, would it be fair to say that by sporting a beard, you also look like Abu Jahil? or like Muawiyah and Yezid?

[pardesi]

Originally posted by anajmi:
pardesi,

The adoption of those was a command from the prophet Muhammad and the prophet did nothing that wasn't a command of Allah in the first place. So if the prophet adopted some method of the jews, it was with the permission of Allah. The Ismailis are neither prophets nor do they directly receive commands from Allah.

So is it fair to say that, and I quote:

"Studying a religion and then taking parts of it and making them your own and morphing into something completely new is a unique Ismaili concept and has nothing to do with Islam."

was a wrong statement and that instead of it being a "unique Ismaili concept" actually was a "unique Islamic concept"? and has everything to do with Islam as taught by the Prophet?

[Muslim First]

"unique Islamic concept"? and has everything to do with Islam as taught by the Prophet?

When did Prophet SAW conduct "Ghatpat ceremony"

[Muslim First]

Where is Prophet prescribed Nandi to Ghat Pat Dua, to Channta?

Can you point out in Qur'an of Hadith?

[Muslim First]

Did Prophet ask us to say:

3rd part of Dua given to us by Hazar Imam.

"Tawasalhu Indil Masahibi, Bi Mowla Kumin Haziril Maujud - Shah Karim El Husayni"

Seek at the times of difficulty the help of your lord, your present living imam - Shah Karim El Husayni."

Did Prophet say Your Lord was Aga con Shah Karim El Husayni?

[pardesi]

And the injured snake retaliates!!

Stick with the subject MF. I can answer your other questions in appropriate forums/threads, not that I and others haven't in the past.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by pardesi:
And the injured snake retaliates!!

Stick with the subject MF. I can answer your other questions in appropriate forums/threads, not that I and others haven't in the past.

Dear Pardesi, please read below.

Well said......now look for the ever-famous and predictable ..................Yup!! you got it!! the "Burqaslip", or better yet, a diversion of topic to guess who??

Did i not predict the Buffoons reaction?? I can read them like the Hadith

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Where is Prophet prescribed Nandi to Ghat Pat Dua, to Channta?

Can you point out in Qur'an of Hadith?

I dont even see the Holy Prophet prescribe Death, Robbery or Abuse anywhere except the Hadith......And we very well know that YOU subscribe to the shameless attributes to the Paak Rasool. Please Hands off the Paak Rasool. If you dont have respectable things to say about the Holy Prophet pbuh, please shut up, or better yet show some cojones to defend Him......

[pardesi]

Turbo,

I agree. I have never seen him so helpless. And such a retaliation was expected. We all know him.

[pardesi]

MF, Since you insist, read the following:

Isha parh kar chala beti ke ghar hadi zamane ka
Dar-e-Bait-Ali per Izn manga andar aane ka

pay tehzeebe ummat izn haasil karke sarvar ne
zia us ghar ko bakhshi zeenate mahrab o minber ne

bashafqat saada pani ka pyala ek mangwaya
dua dam kar ke khud thora sa paani nosh farmaya

diye paani ke cheentay seena o bazoo-e-haider per
yehi paani rasool allah ne chirka paak dukhtar per

Mohabbat or shafqat say bitha kar paas dono ko
dua ki ay khuda ye aqd raas aay dono ko

Ho inki nasl ya rab do jahan may khair ka baais
ye aqd khair ho kon-o-makan may khair ka baais

khudawanda inhen paakiza say paakiza tar kar de
aml may de asr inke iraday khair say bhar de

Rasool Allah is asking Allah for all this after he sprinkles water on Ali and Fatima?

What does it sound like, hmmmm! Ismaili chanta?

Read Shahnama-e-Islam, your eyes will open up and you will find a lot of your answers in that book. Do not have to buy the book, you could read it online.

This is as far I want to deviate from the subject. Do not ask any more questions that have nothing to do with the topic here.