A Challenge to Debate - Beliefs & Opinions

[Momin]

Hey MF,

Is this all you got buddy???

MF said:

Ismailis can say and believe whatever they want to. As far as I am concerned they have taken themselve out of Islam by rejection traditional SAlat, Swam and Hajj.

How old are you...2 years old? You pretend to be knowledgeable in Islam, however you COULD NOT even answer the things I have asked and challenged you to.

Do the Nizari Ismailis care about what your concerns are? Don't really think so and don't really care.

Again it boils down to your own beliefs and opionions.

It's like me saying for example: Sunnis, and other so-called "Muslims" who don't follow the Imam of the Time (Hazar Imam), have excluded themselves from the pales of Islam. So in my eyes, you are not part of Islam MF.

HAJJ

Once again, another false claim by MF. Muslims of the Nizari Ismaili Shia persuasion do go for Hajj & Umrah...some of my own family members who are all Nizari Ismaili Shia Muslims have gone. BTW! You know that Hazrat Imam Ali (AS) was born in the Holy Kabah, so not only are going for the ritual of pilgrimage, but also maybe unknowingly/or knowingly circling around his birthplace. Hmmm, I wonder why Allah (swt) chose the Kabah to be Imam Ali (AS) place of birth??? Food for thought.

There HAVE NOT been any Firmans (directives) from the current Nizari Ismaili Imam (Aga Khan IV) forbiddening his followers from performing Hajj or Swam.

So MF, your baseless arguments are mere opinions and reflections of your own image. So before opening your trap again next time, think twice.

Since you claim you are Muslim, and Allah (swt) has given us all intellect, use the best of best arguments. No cheap shots as you are use too.

Wish you luck...
>>>>
Muslim First
Prolific
Member # 127

posted August 30, 2008 10:55 AM
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quote:
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These 5 fundamentals of Islam may be a little different than 5 pillars of sunni islam
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5 Pillers are of Islam not Sunni or shia and they are

Shahada
Prayers
Fast
Hajj
Zakat

Consult any book on Islam.

Ismailis can say and believe whatever they want to. As far as I am concerned they have taken themselve out of Islam by rejection traditional SAlat, Swam and Hajj.

Take care my friend.
<<<<

[salim]

Dear MF,

Ismaili.net you refer to do not follow Aga khan. Ismailis where converted from hinduism and aga khan and his grand father reminded ismailies tons of times that they need to be more loyal to islam, while most of ismailies followed aga khan. There are still a few who don't care. You see them on ismaili.net. They are very very tinny minority. Ismailies don't believe in forcing anybody. It is allah who will show them light. At least they are way better than those Saudis who call themselves Muslims too. We have never forced Saudis nor ismaili.net guys to follow Islam. It is on to them and Allah.

In 2006 I have personally requested to ismaili.net owner and asked him to stop it. I told him what he is promoting is not Ismailism. I told him atleast if he want to promote his way of Islam, he should not call it Ismailism. But, he thinks that I am not a good Muslim and he is a better Muslim then I am. We had a dialog for more than 3 hrs.

Then i said - "For you your religion and for me mine".

In his way he is right. In my way I am right. But one thing is for sure his view are not the view of 95% ismailies.

Only Allah knows, who is better Muslim.

He comes to JK, he is as much as ismaili as I am. We ismailies don't force anyone. And we feel pround that we give everyone free will to follow what they feel is correct. Aga khan don't promote his way of Islam, but Allah has blessed human being with free will, who are we to take away his free will away.

If you think you are so smart, why don't you go there and argue with him.

I can understand your curiosity about ismailism. If you really want to know what is ismailism is then visit http://www.iis.ac.uk

But if you are not interested in learning but are want to satisfy your ego then you know which which you should go.

[salim]

I believe in those 5 sunni muslim pillars. But Islam is way more than just those 5 pillars.

[salim]

Sorry for many mistakes. I was in hurry. Here is on correction

But if you are not interested in learning but are want to satisfy your ego then you know which which you should go.

correction -
But if you are not interested in learning and if you only want to satisfy your ego then you know which website you should go to.

[Africawala0000]

Brother Salim,

You do not have to teach or explain Ismailism to MF. He is Akbarally Maherally. He knows what Ismailism is all about, however, he has been working very very hard to bring Ismailism down. If Juvayni and Mongols could not, how do you think a pimp can do?

Those who want to side with him, let them but as you will see there aren't many except for that pill popper potty mouth. I like it when he abuses Ismailis because I realise that he is really burning inside and out and so is Maherally because Ismailis are praised everywhere and they owe it all to their Imam.

If we did not have an Imam we would be like maherally, aka MFr and Potty mouth. Talking nonsense and abusing every faith.

They call themselves Muslims, but I have never found out which branch of Islam they follow. Even among the Sunnis there are 4. Unless, of course, they follow the Wahabi cult, who greased MF's palms to write against Shia Islam.
Latter is not part of Islam.
Africawala

[salim]

I agree with you Africawala.

But I also think that Wahabies or Akbar Ali has right to believe in what they want to believe in.

As far as they don't force us to believe in what they believe in I am ok with them.

[pardesi]

As far as they don't force us to believe in what they believe in I am ok with them.

Salim Bhai,

They are doing exactly that. Forcing their brand of Islam on others. Their whole mission is to not allow any other thought or philosophy. According to them the only correct school of thought is the Wahhabi school of thought.

[Aarif]

Pardesi,

I have started an thread out of genuine urge to understand Ismailism as a muslim sect. I was expecting you to post some meaningful insight into Ismailism. However, you have chosen not to contribute. Don't you think that it will make sense to educate others on Ismailism so that people have a better understanding about it rather than wasting time in this useless debates? I think you guys can tell us how you follow Islam if we want to know out of healthy curiosity and than leave the rest aside. Because we are no one to pass any judgement on your faith and beliefs. And I completely agree with you on that .

However, since you people visit this forum so regularly you should make an effort to share your knowledge with others...

[Momin]

Salim,

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

However when people like the Wahabi Sunni Sunnahs start imposing their views on others, and penalizing people due to their beliefs, this is not right.

In regards to Mr.Akbarally Meherally, he has perverted and distorted the history, doctrines, and teachings of Islam of the Nizari Ismaili Shia Muslim persuasion.

salim
Active
Member # 351

- posted September 05, 2008 01:47 AM Profile for salim Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote I agree with you Africawala.

But I also think that Wahabies or Akbar Ali has right to believe in what they want to believe in.

As far as they don't force us to believe in what they believe in I am ok with them. Posts: 123 | Report this post to a Moderator

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Aareef:
Pardesi,

I have started an thread out of genuine urge to understand Ismailism as a muslim sect. I was expecting you to post some meaningful insight into Ismailism. However, you have chosen not to contribute. Don't you think that it will make sense to educate others on Ismailism so that people have a better understanding about it rather than wasting time in this useless debates? I think you guys can tell us how you follow Islam if we want to know out of healthy curiosity and than leave the rest aside. Because we are no one to pass any judgement on your faith and beliefs. And I completely agree with you on that .

However, since you people visit this forum so regularly you should make an effort to share your knowledge with others...

Brother Aareef,

I believe you posted the above on this thread by mistake. It should have been on the other thread which YOU started. Nevertheless, I will try to answer your question here and copy it on the other thread as well.

To understand the practices and rituals and beliefs of another sect you must first be neutral and clear of any bias. Just like a sunni will never be able to understand fully the concept of Shiaism or Walayat, similarly it will be very difficult to understand the beliefs of Nizari Ismailis as compared to Islam known and practiced by people of other sect. When you sit down and listen to someone speaking you would either accept or reject whatever they have to say because the information would slightly differ from what you have come to know or believe. The problem we Nizari Ismailis have here on this website is similar. No matter how much we try to explain it is outrightly rejected by our critics without any second thought. You can not take a high school class without first going through the elementary and middle school. Likewise, and as I have mentioned it before somewhere on this site, to understand the Ismaili beliefs, you must understand the position of Ali and the subsequent Imams that followed him from a Shia perspective. Read the history of Islam and the reason for the divisions in Islam (sects).

Brother Momin has in his initial post on this thread tried to answer your question before you even asked. Brother Africawala has answered your same question on the other thread which you started. It has been explained a gazzillion times on this website by Ismailis. We are not here to preach our tariqa to others and therefore we take a different approach when answering the critics here.

That is the reason I stayed away from contributing my thoughts as Momin and Africawala already had.

[Africawala0000]

posted September 05, 2008 01:47 AM Profile for salim Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote I agree with you Africawala.

But I also think that Wahabies or Akbar Ali has right to believe in what they want to believe in.

As far as they don't force us to believe in what they believe in I am ok with them. Posts: 123 | Report this post to a Moderator

Brother Momin, I do not care what anybody believes in. I am not criticing their faith. They will never make me believe in what they believe. Why are they cricising our faith and our Imam? Who are they to judge us when they and the rest of them have fire burning under their own feet.

Why are we here? We were dragged here repeatedly because of MF who is Maherally himself and he has claimed so. They drag us here and they beat us up and we are not to say anything?

Sorry brother, as long as they are here, I am here and I'll not hesitate to respond in kind.

Ya Ali Madad, brother. Africawala

P.S. Now watch them crawl out of their hell holes with sarcasm, mimicry, insults, etc.

[Momin]

Brother Africawala, Mowla Ali Madad!

In clarification, the following was posted by Salim and not myself:

>>>>
quote:salim
Active
Member # 351

- posted September 05, 2008 01:47 AM Profile for salim Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post

Reply With Quote

"I agree with you Africawala.

But I also think that Wahabies or Akbar Ali has right to believe in what they want to believe in.

As far as they don't force us to believe in what they believe in I am ok with them."

Posts: 123 | Report this post to a Moderator
end of quote
<<<<

I concur with you also in that I am not here to criticize other peoples faith, nor convert them, unlike others. However I have posted my opinions and been critical on all of this in response to the rubbish that has been posted recently on us, the Shia Imami Nizari Ismaili Muslim Tariqah of Islam.

Have yet to receive a intellectual response from MF in regards to the challenge, and from him not deviating off topic.

A CHALLENGE FOR EVERYONE ELSE

For those of you who are reading this post, if you are genuinely interested in seeking authentic, well researched information/literature regarding the Ismailis & Ismailism, please feel free to browse The Institute of Ismailis Studies website. Pick up a book or two from your local library, or order them online, etc., and maybe then one might be able to understand better this UNIQUE, yet very SPECIAL tariqah of Islam.

Wish you luck!

[salim]

Dear Africawala,

People like MF are minute minority in sunni islam. I was born and raised in between Sunnis. I have come accross a very few people who are like MF. I do agree that they do have laud voice, but majority of muslims don't agree with their voice. The only place where their voice is respected is in western media. By doing this western media show Islam as fascist religion.

[Aarif]

Br. Pardeshi

I posted in this thread after reading your standard response to Salim in defence of Ismailism against those who criticize it. I do understand very clearly what you have written in your post but it would be difficult for me completely agree with you. I would try to explain you my point of view. You are saying that people cannot understand others if they try with a fixed preset mind. Well this would be absolutely true in other cases where things are not clear. However, in case of Islam, our prophet(PBUH) has recommended and preached us a standard way of following Islam. All the sects whether Shia or Sunni believe in this with +/- 5%. However, Ismailies have a very different approach towards this religion. Afcourse they might have a very good reason for doing so. However, it does not meet the requirements as mentioned in Quran and by our prophet. If you take any religion most people follow it in a particular way. Christians pray in church, hindus pray in temples. Similarly muslims pray in masjid. The point that I am trying to make is why did Ismailies chose this completely different path of following Islam? If you have a reason than what is it???

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Aareef:
Br. Pardeshi

I posted in this thread after reading your standard response to Salim in defence of Ismailism against those who criticize it. I do understand very clearly what you have written in your post but it would be difficult for me completely agree with you. I would try to explain you my point of view. You are saying that people cannot understand others if they try with a fixed preset mind. Well this would be absolutely true in other cases where things are not clear. However, in case of Islam, our prophet(PBUH) has recommended and preached us a standard way of following Islam. All the sects whether Shia or Sunni believe in this with +/- 5%. However, Ismailies have a very different approach towards this religion. Afcourse they might have a very good reason for doing so. However, it does not meet the requirements as mentioned in Quran and by our prophet. If you take any religion most people follow it in a particular way. Christians pray in church, hindus pray in temples. Similarly muslims pray in masjid. The point that I am trying to make is why did Ismailies chose this completely different path of following Islam? If you have a reason than what is it???

If you are pointing towards praying in a Jamatkhana then I have already responded in the other thread. If I say my Dua in your masjid I am sure some there will be offended. You are leaning too heavily on the ritualistic Islam. Islam is not in rituals. It is in understanding and striving to get near Allah and in being what Allah intended for us. The bottom line is that all the Prophets before Mohammad were muslims yet non of them were required to pray the way Mohammad did.

If your problem is why we follow an Imam, then my friend, we are only following commands of Allah and His prophet. Whatever the Imam wishes, we say Labbayk!

I have one question before I end. Are you a Bohra, Progressive or otherwise, or just a revert to Sunnism? You do not sound like you follow any of the Shia Imams. I might be away for a day or two but I will be back to check your response.

[turbocanuck]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aareef:
it does not meet the requirements as mentioned in Quran and by our prophet .

You mean the SUNNA dont you?

Please let me know HOW many times is prayers prescribed in the Quran. We Ismailis pray 3 times a day as prescribed in the Quran. Quranic proof ONLY please. NO Hadith/nor Sunna prescriptions please. And your tedious repetititve questioning leaves much to be desired. I thought you are genuinely wanting to learn, but i guess ............About the Masajid. please confirm with us the "Gneral look" of a Masjid (as you insinuate,) looks the same in Timbuktoo and Riyadh, or Tora Bora in Gogforsakenistan.

[Aarif]

Are you a Bohra, Progressive or otherwise, or just a revert to Sunnism? You do not sound like you follow any of the Shia Imams.

Yes I am a bohra with an progressive outlook. However, I do not go by strict compartmentalization of religion. E.g. if you are a bohra and a shia and a progressive you do this... I am trying to understand the giest of Islam. Hence, I do not lean or get biased towards any particular sect, community or group of people... The questions that I ask you are based on my understanding of the religion from whatever I have learned in my life of 32 yrs...

Unfortunately you keep asking me to look at things with a neutral mind and than you try to put me in a particular bracket... Honestly you seem to be much more biased than me...

As far as the Imams are concerned I would strictly analize their contribution before paying respects to them. In fact according to me that applies to prophets as well... If you ask me I have greatest respect for moulana Ali, Imam Husein and other ahle bayt... However, I do not have any respect for current syedna of our community because he does not deserve it... Hope it answers your question..

Please let me know HOW many times is prayers prescribed in the Quran. We Ismailis pray 3 times a day as prescribed in the Quran. Quranic proof ONLY please. NO Hadith/nor Sunna prescriptions please. And your tedious repetititve questioning leaves much to be desired.

Turbo,

Nowhere in my post I have mentioned that muslims should pray five times. Even we pray three times. But their are some basic "arkaans" of offering namaz. E.g. there is always azaan before we pray namaz. This is true for shias and sunnis. There are certain adaabs while praying namaz. Except for folded hands these are same among shias and sunnis...

And your tedious repetititve questioning leaves much to be desired. thought you are genuinely wanting to learn, but i guess ............

Unfortunately whenever I ask simple questions your co-ismailies reply in A4 size posts. Now these posts contain everything else except the answer in straight forward simple words... I would love to stop asking questions if you guys will answer them in simple words.. So actually you are making my job tedious by not sticking to the point. Finally I have made a quick summary based on the information you guys have provided in maybe 10-15 pages in half a page about your beliefs... I think you should go through them in my other thread...

Finally Guess work is not a very good way of understanding and learning things... I would prefer to talk straight and ask questions rather than making stupid guesses...

[Muslim First]

Br. Areef

AS

I have opened another thread for Salah. Turbo Abuser will keep asking how many Salah in Qur'an since he want to come to number 3. Then he will tell you Hadith no good since some of them seems to abuse Paak Rasul.

See where he wants to go in this thread .

you will not learn much from Beveqoof.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

Br. Areef

Like I said

Beveqoof Turbabuser made this statementThis statement on the other thread:

Who wants to believe in the hadith? the same narrators who threw a bad light on the Paak Rasool pbuh?

For Ismailis Hadith no good therefore:

We Nizari Ismaili obey what our Hazar Imam says. Who is the Nizari Ismaili Imam again? The Imam of the Time (Hazar Imam) spiritually in essense is the same person who the Holy Prophet (PBUH) appointed to the Muslim Ummah to follow at the historical event of Ghadir-e-Khum,

Where do you find historical event of Ghadir-e-Khum,?

In various Hadith of "the same narrators who threw a bad light on the Paak Rasool pbuh?

No belief in Hadith, No Ghadir-e-Khum, No Imam

QED
.

[Aarif]

Br. MF,

AS

Thanks a lot for your efforts. I really appreciate it. Let us have an accord for now. We will ask questions to our Ismaili brothers that will provide us with meaningful insight into their beliefs. We will than evaluate those beliefs in the light of holy Quran in-order to understand them without any bias... I am sure they will agree with this approach as this will lead us to better understanding of their faith and why they do so...

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Aareef:
Br. MF,

AS

Thanks a lot for your efforts. I really appreciate it. Let us have an accord for now. We will ask questions to our Ismaili brothers that will provide us with meaningful insight into their beliefs. We will than evaluate those beliefs in the light of holy Quran in-order to understand them without any bias... I am sure they will agree with this approach as this will lead us to better understanding of their faith and why they do so...

Aareef, what you're some kind of a judge as to decide whether Ismailis have satisfied your curiosity. You come across as a polite individual, but then have been making ajudgement full of bias against us. Now that you have decided to co-author your thesis on Ismailism with MF. As far as i am concerned, you better ask MF as he is the resident Fascist and one who has the "akl-e-kul" about Ismailis. If you fail to get answers, go to MF's website. there you will b eable to fulfil all your curiosities.

[turbocanuck]

Muslimo Fascist, only Hadith authors who who are not proven to be under the influence of Date-palm "taari" as your revered so-called sahabas who showed paak Rasool pbuh in a filthy light.

[Aarif]

Aareef, what you're some kind of a judge as to decide whether Ismailis have satisfied your curiosity.

Turbo,

Now you are getting carried away. I have not said anything about judging you people. I have just said about understanding what you believe in the light of Quran which is the book for muslims. When understanding any sect of Islam we can use Quran as a benchmark. And whether it is Sunni or Ismaili or bohras, it does not matter. I hope you get the point. Also, instead of posting entire posts while replying please try to read and understand them before commenting... Blind copy paste leads to a waste of precious computer resources...

[turbocanuck]

Aareef,
just read what you wrote.....

We will than evaluate those beliefs in the light of holy Quran in-order to understand them without any bias... I am sure they will agree with this approach as this will lead us to better understanding of their faith and why they do so...

excuse me??? you will evaluate whether we are true Muslims or not? If this is not judging, i dont know what is. As far as i am concerned, i have no interest nor inclination to explain my faith to you as you have shown that you have an agenda.

[turbocanuck]

Aareef, BTW are you the Admin? if you are not, then dont ask me how i should be using the Forums resources.

[Muslim First]

only Hadith authors who who are not proven to be under the influence

Get busy Listing which one Kosher and not

[Aarif]

excuse me??? you will evaluate whether we are true Muslims or not? If this is not judging, i dont know what is.

I never said that we will evaluate whether you are true muslims or not. What I said is we evaluate it in the light of Quran so that we can understand your faith... And if you guys know that you are true muslims than you should not have any problems with that...

As far as i am concerned, i have no interest nor inclination to explain my faith to you as you have shown that you have an agenda.

Turbo,
Honestly your contribution was zero to the other thread on Ismailism. Hence, it makes no difference if you stop contributing

Aareef, BTW are you the Admin? if you are not, then dont ask me how i should be using the Forums resources.

No I am not. But as a good member I can always take an initiative to suggest on saving of resources... Its like "Lets save the earth" slogan.. Anybody can say that. He does not need to be the owner of this planet...

[Africawala0000]

Areef,

When understanding any sect of Islam we can use Quran as a benchmark.

How, can you elborate?

Africawala

[Africawala0000]

Areef,

the above post should read: How, can you elaborate? I meant how you can use Qur'an as a benchmark!!!!!! I had love to know this one!!!!

Africawala

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by Aareef:

excuse me??? you will evaluate whether we are true Muslims or not? If this is not judging, i dont know what is.

I never said that we will evaluate whether you are true muslims or not. What I said is we evaluate it in the light of Quran so that we can understand your faith... And if you guys know that you are true muslims than you should not have any problems with that..
another lie........read below..."we will....."

We will than evaluate those beliefs in the light of holy Quran

As far as i am concerned, i have no interest nor inclination to explain my faith to you as you have shown that you have an agenda.

Turbo,
Honestly your contribution was zero to the other thread on Ismailism. Hence, it makes no difference if you stop contributing

Because you must have been in the receiving end with my "A Very Proud sunni...." must have hit a nerve

Aareef, BTW are you the Admin? if you are not, then dont ask me how i should be using the Forums resources.

No I am not. But as a good member I can always take an initiative to suggest on saving of resources... Its like "Lets save the earth" slogan.. Anybody can say that. He does not need to be the owner of this planet...

spare me with your BS...pleeease..bully your cohorts not me...never mind saving the earth from greenhouse effects, worry about saving your soul