Wahhabism

[porus]

MF,

If Allah does anything and everything, what happens to free will?

And why thank the Prophet for conveying message, when it is Allah who has done it? Why does Allah ask us to invoke blessings on Prophet? Did he (Prophet) actually do something that Allah did not?

Sheikh Baaz has been refuted by many Sunni scholars. Search the net and you will find the refutation.

Your exhortation to read Baaz confirms for everyone that you are a Wahhabi. Did you know that Baaz was a Wahhabi?

[turbocanuck]

SHEIK BIN BAZ,
'ABDUL 'AZIZ IBN 'ABDULLAH IBN MUHAMMAD IBN 'ABDULLAH AL-BAZ (1910-1999)

'Abdul 'Aziz ibn 'Abdullah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abdullah al-Baz was born in Riyadh in 1910 (Dhul Hijjah 12, 1330) into a family of Islamic scholars. His father died when he was eight years old. Sheik Bin Baz was able to recite the entire Qur'an when he was eleven years old, and lost his sight when he was sixteen.

He studied under Shaikh Muhammad ibn 'Abdul Wahhab. In addition to the memorization of the Qur'an, he memorized all of the major hadith and many other important texts. His first position was as a judge in Kharj from 1936-1950. He taught at the Religious Institute of Riyadh and then at the faculty of Shariah. He became the Deputy Rector at the Islamic University of Madinah in 1950. He was promoted to Rector in 1970. A royal decree was issued which appointed him President of the Administration of Religious Research, Ifta, Da'wah, and Guidance at the rank of a minister. Sheikh Ibn Baz was appointed Grand Mufti by King Fahd in 1994.

Ibn Baz was a supporter of many Islamic causes. He called upon Muslims to support their brethren in Palestine, Bosnia, Kosovo and Kashmir and won the King Faisal prize for Service to Islam.

He is most famous for his fatwa stating that the earth is flat. The Sheik decreed:

"The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment." Yousef M. Ibrahim, "Muslim Edicts take on New Force", The New York Times, February 12, 1995, p. A-14.

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by porus:
MF,

Your exhortation to read Baaz confirms for everyone that you are a Wahhabi. Did you know that Baaz was a Wahhabi?

Dance, Dance......

[porus]

Another famous Baz fatwa following a demonstration by Saudi women to protest ban on women drivers:

Baz declared that Quran and Sunna forbid women from driving cars. Fatwa was put into force by Saudis during the time in 1990 when the Saudi Kingdom was replete with American women drivers.

Baz reportedly said that American female drivers were not women but Devil's handmaidens.

[anajmi]

Getting back to the topic of seeking help from others, let us look at it a bit more closely.

WOULD IT ALSO BE A SHRIK IF A MUSLIM SAYS ???” HELP ME O DOCTOR ” ,
HELP ME O POLICE ,
HELP ME O MOTHER ,
HELP ME O FATHER ,
HELP ME O BROTHER
HELP ME O MY CHILDREN
HELP ME O MY FRIEND
HELP ME O MY TEACHER
HELP ME O MY MECHANIC
HELP ME O MY ELECTRICIAN

No, this is not shirk. Why? Let me take the example of a Doctor. If someone in your family becomes sick, would you close your eyes and say "Ya Doctor, please cure my relative"? No, you would not, because you know the doctor doesn't have that kind of power. If you did, then you would be committing shirk. You would take your relative to the nearest or best clinic and have the doctor look at him and give him medicine. Do you believe that the doctor can cure him without giving any medicine? No you don't. If the doctor tells you that I am not going to give him any medicine, but I am only going to go in my office and meditate and cure him with my brain waves, you will probably ask the doctor to go see a doctor.

Now, when you say "Ya Ali Madad" or "Ya Rasool Madad" (which no one does, only Ali seems to have the power) are you expecting Hazrat Ali to cure your relative by giving him some medicine? Or are you expecting Hazrat Ali to cure him by his mystical/supernatural powers? Do you believe that Hazrat Ali has the power to listen to everyone who calls out to him from anywhere on earth at any time and has the power to help him? A quality similar to that of Allah?

Similarly, you do not commit shirk when you ask your teacher or mechanic or electrician for help. Shias tend to purposely compare apples with oranges to muddle the issue.

Why does Allah ask us to invoke blessings on Prophet?

Why do you think? This is not a rhetorical question. You've asked this question many times before but have never chosen to answer it. Please answer it.

Did he (Prophet) actually do something that Allah did not?

Did he? Yes he did. He was the one who was given the responsibility of delivering the message which he did.

If your question had been

Did he (Prophet) actually do something that Allah could not?

My answer would've been NO

Your exhortation to read Baaz confirms for everyone that you are a Wahhabi.

Oh please, even if I quote from Daimul Islam, I will be a wahhabi.

[anajmi]

Consider the Hazar Imam too over here. This is one guy who couldn't save his own marriages. Not once but failed twice. It's a pity all his charity was of no use when it came to saving his marriages. Now who in his right mind would actually believe that this is the guy who is going to solve their problems, or lead them to heaven?

Similarly we have the bohras. Have you ever heard "Maula Shifa Maula Shifa"? I bet you have. This for a 94 year old who has to visit the hospital everytime he himself needs shifa.

[pardesi]

[QB]Consider the Hazar Imam too over here. This is one guy who couldn't save his own marriages. Not once but failed twice. It's a pity all his charity was of no use when it came to saving his marriages...... QB]

Anajmi, stay with the topic, please. Its Wahhabism, not the Aga Khan or the Bohra clergy.
We have discussed this so many times and will be willing to discuss again under a different thread but here we are talking about Islam as presented by your paymasters, the Wahhabis.

I take it that you have no arguments left to support your wahhabi idealogy, hence divert attention to other sects. Desperate, aren't you?
Well your sidekick made a futile attempt to save your face out of the jam you are in but even that backfired (about this Baaz dude).

Got anything else left in your arsenal? (on this topic). If not just disappear and let the admin end it right here.

Just give up and move on, please.

[anajmi]

Who cares about some Baz dude? I am more interested in the Hazar Imam who doesn't even have a good enough set to keep his own wives, how is he going to fix the problems of the muslim ummah? He probably forgot to say "Ya Hazar Imam madad" in bed huh!!

[porus]

anajmi,

Prophet is reported to have helped someone very far after hearing him while performing wudhu and then helping him.

Prophet is reported to have said that all salutations offered to him, are heard by him, even after he is dead.

Are these reports untrue, because only Allah is all-hearing and only Allah lives for ever?

Despite nearness to God, Prophets and Imams share human characteristics and must go through their humanity in this world. How God treats them after they are 'dead'; is a matter for Muslim metaphysics which is beyond the ken of Wahhabis. So, we can leave that aside for a time.

Ayyub Nabi was afflicted with many ills, yet many invoke his wasila for curing ailments. That is because Allah has said that believers should obtain a means of nearness to Allah, and Allah has indicated that nearness to him is through his devoted servants, prophets and ahl-e-bayt.

As to divorces, they again are part of human drama which Prophets and Imams are required to play out in this life. Divorce is not haraam, and even prophet married the divorced wife of his adopted son. Imam Hassan's wife poisoned him. In the final analysis, each person acts on his own free will. It is possible that the Prophet's and Imam's friends and relatives turn against them, as has happened with them in history.

Please stick to Wahhabism and do not jump on your anti-Ismaili, anti-Bohra, anti-Shia hobby-horse.

Do you invoke blessings on Prophet? Why, if you consider him dead and he cannot hear?

[anajmi]

porus,

Prophet is reported to have helped someone very far after hearing him while performing wudhu and then helping him.

This is when he was alive, and only if you interpret the hadith literally.

Prophet is reported to have said that all salutations offered to him, are heard by him, even after he is dead.

There is a difference between salutations and calls of help like "Ya Ali Madad". Again, only if interpreted literally.

Allah has indicated that nearness to him is through his devoted servants, prophets and ahl-e-bayt.

Please quote the hadith. Allah says in the quran -

050.016
YUSUFALI: It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

050.018
YUSUFALI: Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

Seeking nearness to Allah does not mean you can say "Ya Ali Madad" when you want to lift your heavy sofa. Seeking nearness to Allah means learning the religion of Allah, learning the way to follow it as taught by the prophet, the ahl-e-bayt and his devoted servants.

I will discuss, Ismailis, Bohras and whoever I think is relevant to the topic at hand.

Do you invoke blessings on Prophet? Why, if you consider him dead and he cannot hear?

Yes I do. Only because Allah has commanded me to in the quran. I don't need any other reason to invoke blessings on the prophet. Even if the prophet can hear the blessings invoked upon him, it is by the will of Allah. Does he need to respond to those blessings? Can he? Does it matter?

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:

Do you invoke blessings on Prophet? Why, if you consider him dead and he cannot hear?

Yes I do. Only because Allah has commanded me to in the quran. I don't need any other reason to invoke blessings on the prophet. Even if the prophet can hear the blessings invoked upon him, it is by the will of Allah. Does he need to respond to those blessings? Can he? Does it matter?

Wahhabism taken to heart. What does it matter what reason God has for commanding you to invoke blessing on Prophet? I do not look for reasons. That is for those who create fitnat.

In the same way, we do not need to create laws for the good of the community. They are all laid down for us. We just obey.

In the same way, salat is qiyam, ruku and sujood. Those scholars and mystics, including Ali, who have given us deeper menaings into these are fitnatis. There is no such meaning in God's book.

"Ya Ali Madad" is a salutation as well as a desire to seek help from Ali. Ali, like Prophets and Imams is a creation with no powers of creation. Allah says he, ALi, is "alive" and it is a Shia's confidence in the power of his prayer that he says "Ya Ali madad". An evil Wahhabi who cannot let them alone to worship in the way they see fit cannot get away from the mote in his eye.

I am convinced that you and Muslim First have adopted Wahhabism hook, line and sinker. Just keep calling them mushriks and feel arrogantly proud you are with bin Baaz. Saudi's will give you both a fee passage to Haj next year. Haj? I have been coimmanded to go by Allah. There is no other significance to it. Any significance is given to it by mischief makers. O, I will go to Jannat.

[porus]

I am prepared to continue this discussion if it is about differences between Wahhabism and ahl-e-sunna. Otherwise, I am not interested.

[anajmi]

porus,

what reason God has for commanding you to invoke blessing on Prophet?

After all that rhetoric, I am still waiting for the reason from the mystic mongers ( ).

Allah says he, ALi, is "alive" and it is a Shia's confidence in the power of his prayer that he says "Ya Ali madad".

huh!! Still don't know the reason behind it. Where does Allah say Ali is alive? Isn't that ayah interpreted literally by the mystic mongers? Shia confidence doesn't mean anything if it cannot be traced back to the quran and the sunnah and if it can be shown reasonably to be bordering on shirk.

I am convinced that you and Muslim First have adopted Wahhabism hook

Taking a line from your own book, if you are convinced that someone is a wahhabi, it doesn't mean that he is a wahhabi.

Now, I don't really care if you are interested or not.

[jawanmardan]

Porus,

While I appreciated your input, I would point out that with a blearing absence of respect from both parties, one cannot enter into a fruitful discourse, I wouldn't bother continuing.

[pardesi]

Here is my summarization of the discussion under the topic "Wahhabism":

Originally posted by Anajmi:

"Let this thread get back on track."

"Don't bother replying homo, let this thread get back on track."

"Now shut your hole and let this thread get back on track."

"Who cares about some Baz dude? I am more interested in the Hazar Imam..."

huh? What happened to getting back to the topic?

Response by Porus:

"Please stick to Wahhabism and do not jump on your anti-Ismaili, anti-Bohra, anti-Shia hobby-horse."

Answer by Anajmi:

"I will discuss, Ismailis, Bohras and whoever I think is relevant to the topic at hand."

Porus:

"I am prepared to continue this discussion if it is about differences between Wahhabism and ahl-e-sunna. Otherwise, I am not interested."

Answer by Anajmi:

"Now, I don't really care if you are interested or not."

Whatever happened to discussion on Wahhabism? Anajmi and the cohort exited stage left claiming victory. They always keep the back door open to retreat. The best argument they could put forward was some essay by a Wahhabi scholar who issued a fatwa that the earth is flat! and that in the 20th century?

Anajmi called the wahhabis idiots yet proved in the end that he is the biggest hypocrite on this website hiding behind some wahhabi idealogy that melts like some cheap cheese when put to test. In the end he refuses to discuss wahhabism as he has no more arguments left in his bag and resorts to attacking the Bohras, Ismailis and the Aga Khan who have nothing to do with the topic. What a way out!

After the humiliation, Anajmi, if I were you I would go away for a little while knowing that I lost more than what I had to offer (you know what I mean? ). Besides, who would want to discuss anything with you after this?

[pardesi]

Porus, let me try and answer a very important question you asked about why we invoke blessings on the Prophet (and his progeny).

And I quote:

[Yusufali 14:24] Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 14:24]

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Kalimatan tayyibah (a goodly word) is usually interpreted as the divine word, thought or deed, but, in a more general sense, it may be interpreted as a thought, word or deed of goodness of any other good and noble agency, other than Allah, which emanates from a true understanding and application of the religion of Allah-it is like a goodly tree which is firmly rooted and grows higher and higher with ever green branches, always yielding fruit; and the heavens is the limit..................

...According to Imam Jafar bin Muhammad al Sadiq, the Holy Prophet also said:

"I am the root of the goodly tree. Ali is its trunk, my divinely chosen Ahl ul Bayt are its branches and the pious followers of my Ahl ul Bayt are its leaves."

Now here is my two cents. The tree needs water to keep producing fruits and green leaves. Where would you water the tree? Literalists would spray water at the leaves like some on this board. But in actuality you have to water the root(s). Check the above ayat the word root is used (singular) which is the Prophet hence we send our blessings to the Prophet, and as per the Prophet's wish on the Ahlul Bayt, which in turn makes the tree stronger and stable (ofcourse by the will of Allah) and it produces fruits.

My Islamiat teacher in school (a sunni) used to expand the meaning of the blessings invoked as "Ay Allah Mohammad or Mohammad ki aal ke zariye hum per rehmat bhaij".

Did that make sense?

And - Anajmi and MF, please stay out of this - you guys would never understand. Thanks.

[Gursevak]

The very first line of this thread started with "Kindly keep the personal attacks to a minimum."

who started the topic - anajmi; who has indulged in personal attacks not only on ones responding to the posts but also the imams, aga khan etc - anajmi!do u need any book as proof of how obnoxious wahabi muslims are.

it has been mentioned before - anajmi, muslim first his nephew and a couple of others have nothing of interest to share with u lot - why do u even humour them? when a loonie screams abuses at passersby at bus stops do the passersby stop to remonstrate - maybe the first couple of times but after that they ignore him completely - he really is just merged in with the noise of the traffic.

[porus]

Pardesi,

Thank you for that explanation of why we invoke blessings on the Prophet. It is in line with the explanation I was looking for. We would not get that from Wahhabis because they are literalists and will just parrot Quran without understanding the import behind the words. "Allah told me, so I am doing it. Damn your explanations".

Invoking blessings on Prophet is not just sending durood to Prophet but it is also the renewal of trust (amana) that Allah has placed on humans in accordance with 33:72. Trust is highly prized attribute in Quran and in fact, al-Ameen (trustworthy) is one of 99 names of Allah in the Quran. It is no coincidence that Prophet is also referred to as al-Ameen.

If you trust Prophet and claim to send durood to him, you would be a hypocrite if you do not firmly put Ali by his side. That is because of what Ali represented to Prophet. Shia believe that all references to Ali by Prophet were sanctioned by Allah. His birth in Kaaba and his name Ali, which is also one of the 99 names of God (al-Ali).

Saying "Ya Ali, madad" is following Prophet who continuously sought Ali's help in conveying Allah's message. Shia acknowledge the trust that Prophet placed on Ali, and in turn Ali placed in Prophet, as the one to whom all trust is due. Why? Because Allah placed his trust on Prophet as first among all humans. For the Shia, Ali is the Wali of Allah's religion and Prophet has prayed that Allah will bless all those who consider Ali as Wali of Allah.

Asking Prophet and Ali directly for help has been sanctioned by many ahadith of both Prophet and ahl-e-bayt and is expressed in many popular naats and manqabat.

This is a line from a famous song from Mughal-e-azam:

"bekas pe karam kijiye, sarkar-e-madina".

It all boils down to love for Prophet and his ahl-e-bayt. This is not aqeeda of Wahhabis, who have developed intense hatred of Ali and Ahl-e-bayt because they believe that Allah need not be loved, only worshipped. Ibadat is a series of meaningless movements and parroting of some words. Love for Allah or other humans have no place in their religion. Yet mystics have kept telling us Allah=Love.

[porus]

Originally posted by porus:
al-Ameen (trustworthy) is one of 99 names of Allah in the Quran.

The actual name is al-Wakeel, which has the same meaning. (Tawakkaltu ala Allah = In God I trust)

[anajmi]

Whew!! It's a good thing I am not a wahhabi. And since I have shown that without literal interpretations, the shia beliefs come to a naught too, literal interpretations do not make you a wahhabi. And yes, love of Allah is a prime requirement. That is the reason why I choose to do certain things only for the sake of Allah and only because of the commandment of Allah, without looking for reasons. Unconditional love is the best form of love. I have nothing more to add.

[pardesi]

[QB] His birth in Kaaba and his name Ali, which is also one of the 99 names of God (al-Ali).QB]

Porus, just out of curiosity, the names "Ali" and "Mohammad", were they in use before or at that time or was that the first time ever? Has history recorded anyone named Ali or Mohammad before their time?

[anajmi]

Actually, I do have something more to add. During the time of jahilliya in mecca, the pagans had created the idols of laat, manaat and uzza (and a few others). When the prophet spoke against them, they came back with the explanation that these idols were not being worshipped as Gods but simply a means to approach God. This is the same explanation as given by the Shia of today. Their idols are the Hazar Imam, the Syedna and Hazrat Ali (may Allah be pleased with him). Times have changed, the idols have changed, the explanations are the same.

[Muslim First]

.
Wahhabism / Muwahhidun


1. No other object for worship than God

2. Holy men or women must not be used to win favors from God

3. No other name than the names of Allah may enter a prayer

4. No smoking of tobacco

5. No shaving of beard

6. No abusive language

7. Rosaries are forbidden

8. Mosques must be built without minarets and all forms of ornaments

COMMANDMENTS OF WAHHABISM

1. All men must attend public prayer, salat

2. Alms, zakat, must be paid from all income

3. Butchers slaughtering animals according to halal must have their life styles scrutinized. It is not sufficient that they perform the basic rituals correctly

<small>[ January 07, 2008, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]</small>

[Muslim First]

From above sources:

Movement in Islam from mid-18th century, calling for a renewal of the Muslim spirit, with cleansing of the moral, and removal of all innovations to Islam, bid'a, even laws and regulations agreed upon through consensus, ijma.

The movement has played an important role in the funding of Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism is known for its conservative regulations which have impact on all aspects of life. It has been recognized as being in accordance with Hanbali doctrine.

The term 'wahhabism' is not used by themselves. The term they use is 'muwahhidun'. 'Wahhabism' is a term given to them by their opponents, and is now used by both European scholars and most Arabs. The name 'wahhibims' comes from their founder Abdu l-Wahhab. The term 'muwahhidun' is Arabic, and means 'unitarians'.

[Muslim First]

.
BTW myself and br. Anajmi do not follow at least one of 'PROHIBITIONS OF WAHHABISM'. Therfore could hardly be called 'Wahabi'
.

[Muslim First]

.

8. Mosques must be built without minarets and all forms of ornaments

Riyadh Expands Masjid al-Haram
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Sate ... /NWELayout

Another expansion saw the building of more minarets and prayer area in and around the mosque itself between 1988 and 2005.

Saudis are bad Wahabis.
They ae building Minarets on Mosques.
.

[turbocanuck]

Wahhabi thugs may try to damage control and really convince us in cute ways that they arent wahhabis, but we know.
we have been told that a Wahhabi (wahhabi knows!) isnt a wahhabi if he doesnt follow at least ONE of the tenets in their doctrine like....

No smoking of tobacco

No shaving of beard

No abusive language

Mohammed Atta did all of the above yet that didnt NOT make him aWahhabi.the butcher of September 11 was known to frequent nightclubs, smoked, drank alcohol and also indulged in all the vices deemed haram by the Wahhabis. And that didnt NOT make him a Wahhabi Thug. because he was on a mission like the wahhabis on this forum. they can portray themselves as some pious lot, but they cannot fool the forum.

[porus]

No other object for worship than God .

Absolutely true. For Wahhabis, God is an object, confined in time and space (like created objects). He is not like anything else (that is, anything created - isn't that schizophrenic?) ; they grant you that. It is the idol of Muhammad Abdul Wahhab's imagination.

Holy men or women must not be used to win favors from God

Yes of course. We Wahhabis follow one part of Quran literally and ignore parts that we do not agree with. And what is more, we Wahhabis declare anyone who do not ignore the parts we ignore kafirs, even if they are so-called Muslims. And we make it lawful to kill them. Well, God says so in his book, doesn't he? Literally.

No other name than the names of Allah may enter a prayer

So, all who say Muhammad in theor prayers are kafirs. That includes all Muslims except Wahhabis.

[porus]

Originally posted by pardesi:

... the names "Ali" and "Mohammad", were they in use before or at that time or was that the first time ever? Has history recorded anyone named Ali or Mohammad before their time?

Pardesi,

You raise an interesting point. I looked through the genealogy of Prophet and Ali and I could not find either name there. That is not to say that there were not any.

However, there are popular stories that relate that both these names are unique and were used for the first time during Prophet's mission. I recall hearing that Muhammad became popular among the Quraish because they were expecting a prophet of that name arising among them.

It is the belief of the Shia that Ali was given his name by Prophet who started reciving revelation 10 years after Ali was born. Again, I am unaware if this name was a first for any person at that time.

I do not really know the answer to your question. It seems unlikely that these names did not exist before the advent of Islam for the simple reason that they are included in the Quran. And Quran claims that it is a book that should be understood by people, at least the Arabs, during Prophet's time.

[khuzema]

This is for MF and Anajami,

This is why saying “Ya Ali Madad” is not Shirk. very simple logic.

Shia’s believe Allah send Ali and I repeat ALLAH have send Ali to help human beings spiritually. So Ali and Allah are not the competitors. Help asked to Ali is same as Help asked to Allah.

If a shia don’t says Ya Ali Madad, then either he is not a Shia or he is doing Shirk by challenging Allah’s Authority, because (according to Shia’s) who send Ali as help? – Allah.

Ali though physically not present with us, is source of inspiration to many Muslims. So when Shias ask help to Ali are they are not asking help to physical body of ali, they are asking help to the "Help of Allah" (ali).