Wahhabism

[Muslim First]

.
Porus
AS

You do not have to have Perdesi's take on Ali's name. As far as he is concerned here it is:

alinizar313
Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: Esoteric dimension of Birthday of Hazar Imam
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The esoteric dimension of Saligrah Mubarak of Hazar Imam

We normally wish birthday to our friends and relatives every year on the day one born or comes in this physical world. In the same way, we wish happy birthday to our beloved Hazar Imam by attending Jamatkhana for special Majlis. What does it mean to a momin although there is a hell of difference between the birthday of a Person and a birthday of Hazar Imam? We celebrate the Birthday of a person who takes birth in this world but Imam never born, He has been in this world and in all others universe since the proclamation of the word “BE” or QUN. When there was nothing not even these Universes, Mowla Murtaza Ali manifested. Now the question arises when Imam does not born then why we celebrate His birthday. Our simple answer will be that Imam born physically in this world that is why we celebrate his birthday. Symbolically it is correct but we should keep in mind that any activity or ceremony being conducted in Jamatkhana has some esoteric or spiritual significance as we strongly believe that our faith is esoteric. Further we believe in Noor of Imamat, not the physical body of Imam.
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So Ali was first thing in this universe. If you go thru Ismaili.net then you will find that
Ali and Muhammad SAW are co-equal
There are chapters in Qur'an are missing (about Imamat)
So what does a Ismaili who does not believe in Salah, Hajj and fasting has anything to do with Islam.

Whabism is reform movement in SA.

When I went for Hajj I got Hadiaya (Gift) of small packet of books. On page 110 of booklet called "The Religion of Truth" by A.R.Ben Hammad Al-Omar, Printed by Ministry of Islamic Affairs it states as follows:

Islaimd Schools of Doctrine
The basic ideology of all Muslims is Islam, and matters concerning their religion they refer to nothing save Qur'an and prophetic traditions. The Islamic schools of doctrine (Hanbaliy, Maliky, Shafiiy, and Hanafiy) are all basically based on Qur'an and Sunnah, but they may differ in some subsidiary questions of Jurisprudence. Each on of these four Imams taught his disciples his own methods and rules which he deduced from his studies of Qur’an and Sunnah, but the four doctrine are all in agreement with the basis of Islamic faith and law. However it is not obligatory for a Muslim to follow the conceptions of one of these schools, but he is commanded to follow the percepts of the Qur’an and Sunnah.

On page 109 in this booklet the auther recommends books by Shaikh Wahab among other books. This is the only reference to Wahabism.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

Khusema;

AS

Why not say 'Ya allah'? and why not call yourself Muslim?

Wasalaam
.

[pardesi]

Originally posted by MF:

"Porus
AS

You do not have to have Perdesi's take on Ali's name. As far as he is concerned here it is:...."

What "Pardesi's take". I never gave my opinion about it. Besides posts on Ismaili.net do not represent Ismaili beliefs, they are mere personal opinions and in some cases personal beliefs which may not be entirely correct. Ismaili.net is not the official website of the Ismaili tariqa so therefore cannot be taken literally.

Thanks.

[khuzema]

To make this concept clearer I have used Allah’s attributes from the 99 names of Allah in bracket.

When Asking help to police, mother, guide, and mechanic is not shirk then why asking help to a spiritual leader is shirk?

Who is the TRUE Police – Allah (Al-Muhaimin)
Who is True creator (mother) – Allah (Al-Khaaliq)
Who is the TRUE Guide – Allah (Al-Haadi)

Though only Allah is The Knowledgeable (Al-Aleem), we shia do seek knowledge from Ali and his descendants and also from the scholars and also from those who know more than we do.

Allah has all the knowledge of batin (Al-Baatin), but we believe Ali and his descendants also have the knowledge of batin (given to them by allah) and they (Ali and his descendants) are human beings (Allah is not in human form) so that we can understand. Same thing if we go on the Tour to Taj Mahal, we hire a Guide, we can’t say only Allah is the true Guide (Al-Haadi) so we don’t need any guide and Allah will come and explain us about Taj Mahal.

Say, I have a disease, I go to a doctor and he cures me by giving me medicine. Now say I have no knowledge of Medicine or science (I am an Adivasi) then I will think that the doctor have super natural powers, but in real he doesn’t have any such power but it is a pure knowledge.

Same thing with spiritual leaders (Imams), they don’t have any supernatural power but they do have the Knowledge, the knowledge of the Hidden (Allah - Al-Baatin). At least they have the knowledge more than we do.

[khuzema]

Khusema;

AS

Why not say 'Ya allah'? and why not call yourself Muslim?

Wasalaam

We do say Ya Allah and we are Muslims. But we also thank Allah for sending Ali and his desendants to help us and as a thank to Allah'e help we say Ya Ali Madad.

[Muslim First]

.
Why not say 'Ya Allah, Thanks for Ali' instead for asking Ali's 'Madad' (help).

Does not make sense!!!!

(Nah it will never make sense to Ali Worshippers)

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

llah has all the knowledge of batin (Al-Baatin),

Correct

but we believe Ali and his descendants also have the knowledge of batin (given to them by allah)

So it has been 1350 years Ali and his descendants are with us with this knowledge. Could you point out one single book this Knowledgable people have written expounding this Baatini knowledge?

Who is ali's descendant with this knowledge alive today?

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

Br. Pardesi

Ya Allah Madad

If it suits you. you will disown your own mother

Ya Allah Madad
.

[pardesi]

Brother MF,

Have a little bit of decency. My beliefs have nothing to do with what suits me. Its what I believe is true and what I do not believe to be true. I do not go after people for having different beliefs than me. Even here on this website, I only criticize you and the other guy because you ridicule my beliefs. Thats it. What you believe is yours and what I believe in is mine and we are all answerable to our Creator. Until then...... have a nice life!

[pardesi]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br. Pardesi

Ya Allah Madad

If it suits you. you will disown your own mother

Ya Allah Madad
.

What did you gain by that post. Allah's pleasure? Acting like an injured snake? "Hum to doobay hai(n) sanam, tumhe(n) bhi lay doobay(n)gay".

[turbocanuck]

Originally posted by pardesi:

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Br. Pardesi

Ya Allah Madad

If it suits you. you will disown your own mother

Ya Allah Madad
.

What did you gain by that post. Allah's pleasure? Acting like an injured snake? "Hum to doobay hai(n) sanam, tumhe(n) bhi lay doobay(n)gay".

did you say "gain"?
with a little bit of thumping and killing, a 72 pack and some wine awaits him on the other side...

[pardesi]

[porus]

Muslim First,

MF,

We have a saying amongst Muslims, of which you may not be aware.

It is: "La hawl wa la quwwat illah billah". It means that "there is no strength, nor power except through Allah". Bohras have a dua that they recite every time they rise from sujood for a subsequent rakaat. It says: "Allahumma inni, bi hawl-ika wa quwwat-ika, aqumu wa aq'adu". It means that "O Allah, only with your strength and your power, I arise and I sit down"

Having established that nothing happens except as Allah wishes, in social context, any request for help to Allah is delivered by Allah through a human agency. Allah never helps you directly, his help is delivered through natural or spiritual objects, which we would term miracles, or through humans. The most obvious example is that he sent Quran through Muhammad. Why? Does God not have the ability to send his message directly to each human being? God has asked Muslims to follow Muhammad and Muhammad has asked us to follow Ali. God says Allah will help his abideen. God helps through his chosen ones.

Quran states that most of its ayats have hidden meanings. We have discussed this previously. Yet, why would God put redundunt messages in Quran without at the same time giving us the opportunity to learn their meanings. Allah and Muhammad have said that you can ascertain these lessons through Ahl-e-bayt.

Depending on your desire, you are free to obtain help either from Shaytaan or from Saint. Allah will deliver it to you either way. But as Muslim, you may prefer it from a Saint. Imagine Saints as Allah's grannaries. Choose anyone for help. Shia choose Ali.

MF, I do not think you know what ibadat is. You just go through the meaningless rituals in ape-like mimicking of Wahhab and his despicable cohorts.

Remember, God is not part of his creation. He is known only through his creations. All help is from his creations. Choose a creation that will deliver Allah's help to you or, forever, remain helpless.

[Gursevak]

"The Religion of Truth" by A.R.Ben Hammad Al-Omar

Another true Muslim - Abdul Rahman bin Hammad al-Omar.

Read his views here

To quote:
In a country ruled by Muslim authorities, a non-Muslim is guaranteed his freedom of faith. He has the full choice, either to embrace Islam to deliver himself from disbelief and attain prosperity, or to stick to his religion, and hence, choose disbelief, distress and be a loser in the Hereafter. Such a choice provides a clear-cut evidence against the disbeliever on the Day of Judgment. Muslims are forbidden from obliging a non-Muslim to embrace Islam, but he should pay the tribute to Muslims readily and submissively, surrender to Islamic laws, and should not practise his polytheistic rituals openly.
Apostasy from Islam is grievous crime punishable by death. One who commits apostasy from Islam rejects truth after he had known it, thus, he does not deserve life and loses the (Raison-d’etre) of his existence. But if his apostasy is due to a violation of one of the principles of Islam, he should repent and ask

No wonder his book was the gift for those doing Hajj

[Muslim First]

Quran states that most of its ayats have hidden meanings. We have discussed this previously. Yet, why would God put redundunt messages in Quran without at the same time giving us the opportunity to learn their meanings. Allah and Muhammad have said that you can ascertain these lessons through Ahl-e-bayt.

Porus, Khuzema and Pardesi
AS and Ya Allah Madad

Here is a challange;

Please post 'hidden meanings' as per Ahl-e-bayt and/or Imam (hiding, Gaib or Hazir) of following Ayat of Qur'an.

Qur’an 80 (‘Abasa) (Yusuf Ali)

33. At length when there comes the Deafening Noise

34 That Day shall a man flee from his own brother.

35 And from his mother and his father.

36 And from his wife and his children.

37 Each one of them that Day will have enough concern (of his own) to make him indifferent to the others.

38 Some Faces that Day will be beaming.

39 Laughing rejoicing.

40 And other faces that Day will be dust-stained;

I will wait till Q.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

MF,

Do you have anything more to discuss about your religion, Wahhabism?

Do not divert attention to Ismailies, batin etc. You can display your ignorance and prejudice on anti-Shia sites. And there are plenty of those.

[Muslim First]

Porus
As
Stop for one moment

My response and quote from Ismaili.net was in response to Pardesi and your bantor about Ali's name. and here it is

Originally posted by pardesi:
... the names "Ali" and "Mohammad", were they in use before or at that time or was that the first time ever? Has history recorded anyone named Ali or Mohammad before their time?

My post was to point out that according to Ismaili belief God created Ali after he said "QUN"

Batini stuff was introduced by you and Khuzema. I am just asking you to psot some.

As far as Wahabism is concerned, I do not have first hand knowledge except what I find it in books and nate.

I will be glad to continue if you tell us what Wahabism is from some Wahabi.

Wasalaam and I will be waiting for Baatini meaning of 80:33-40
.

[porus]

MF,

You are not going to get any batin or taawil on this board from anybody. You have been told this before. So, stop asking.

If you do not have anything to discuss about Wahhabism, you can stay immersed in it. We can consider this subject closed.

[Muslim First]

You are not going to get any batin or taawil on this board from anybody. You have been told this before. So, stop asking.

So all this 'Baatini" stuff is hot air.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

MF, If someone does not want to talk about a subject with you, how does the subject become "a lot of hot air"?

Answer: You need to have a Wahhabi mindset.

[Muslim First]

Porus

If I knew 'Baatin' of Qur'an, I would definately write and talk about it. After all it is Allah's knowledge.

Ismailis (All of them) talk lot about this esoteric stuff. Most of it is Hot Air

I know you do not want to talk about it. Just do not use word 'Baatin'.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

.

But we also thank Allah for sending Ali and his desendants to help us and as a thank to Allah'e help we say Ya Ali Madad.

So Khuzema

How do 'Ali and his desendants to help you'?

And which perticular desendant is helping you in this day and age?

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Just do not use word 'Baatin'.

Wahhabis do not own the word "baatin". Do you have a copyright?

[Muslim First]

Wahhabis do not own the word "baatin". Do you have a copyright?

No.
Everytime you hide behind Baatin, I will ask you to produce Baatin of a Aya of Qur'an.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

MF,

Surat 89 al-Fajr (first 5 aayaat)

1. wa-l fajr
2. wa layalin ashr
3. wa-sh shaf'i wal witr
4. wa-l layli idha yasr
5. hal fi dhalika qasamul li dhi hijr

1. And the Dawn
2. And the ten nights
etc.

What do Wahhabis think these aayaat mean? I have a splendid baatin version. Ask me what it says. And then wait for it.

[muhammad khan]

My post was to point out that according to Ismaili belief God created Ali after he said "QUN"

Ismaili.net is not an official site, so attributing those believes to Ismailies make no sense. I hope Suni Scholars do not follow the similar mentality like yours to come up with hadiths otherwise you will only have Zaif hadiths to follow. What I mean is Authentication of the source is very important before attributing.

[muhammad khan]

I know a Sunni guy and according to his belief Ganesh is among one of the big prophets. Also I have seen on TV News that Salman Khan (a Sunni guy) praying to Ganesh. You can Google it to know more about this.

Now as per your logic I should conclude that According to Sunni Quran, Ganesh is very big prophet and praying Ganesh everyday is Must as per Quran and Sunni doctrines.

[muhammad khan]

The reason you are unable to understand the doctrines of Shiaism is because you are not learning them with an open mind and from authentic sources. In Sunnis there is no centralized religious authority, but in all Shia groups we do have centralized religious authority. And in the matter of religion they have the final say.

If you realy want to learn the doctrines of Shiaism or Ismailism you should find a nice book published by authority. Rather what you are doing is going to some idiots website like Ismaili.net or some anti-shia websites to gain knowledge (loop holes in the belives).

By this you can only satisfy your Ego that yours is the only correct way, but you will never find the truth.

[muhammad khan]

For most Shia’s the definition of Ali is not only the physical form of a dead men, whose body was very strong and had a beard when he was alive.

For them Ali is a source of knowledge and energy
Ali is source of inspiration
Ali is a way to Allah
Ali is the sign of Allah
Ali is the Light of Allah
Ali is spiritual Guru
Ali is a teacher.
Ali is a Guide to Allah

So when Shia says Ali was with every Prophet they don’t mean that Ali was born with Adam and now his age is some millions of years. Same thing when they say Ali is on this earth from the beginning.

To understand Ali you need to understand the concept of Imam. If you really want to know the truth, learn this from any authority website or book. Otherwise you go to Ismaili.net and satisfy yourself by reading some posts from some idiots. But then you will never learn the Truth.

[muhammad khan]

Here is the hadith of Rasulillah

Prophet Muhammad (SAAW) reported to have taught the following:

“Even if two men are left alive on the planet earth, one of them will essentially be Hujat (Imam) of Allah upon the other. And in such case Imam will die later than the other person (who is not Hujat) so that the ordinary person cannot complain Allah of being left without Hujat (guide)“ Asool-e-Kafi volume # 2