Which quran is this from? The one assembled by Hazrat Uthman or the one that is hidden?Now read this one..." And those who implement the Command..." (Sura al Naz'iat)....so who are they? and implement what command ?
Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Which quran is this from? The one that is hidden? Yes or No? or the one that is available on Amazon.com? Yes or No?" HE is the Omnipotent over HIS Slaves; HE Sendeth GUARDIANS over you..."
( Sura al An'am).....
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Which quran is this from? The one that is hidden? Yes or No? or the one that was assembled by Hazrat Uthman? Yes or No?" AND IF WHEN THEY HAD WRONGED THEMSELVES THEY HAD BUT COME UNTO THEE AND ASKED FORGIVENESS OF GOD AND THE MESSENGER HAD SOUGHT FORGIVENESS FOR THEM, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND GOD FORGIVING AND MERCIFUL..." (SURA AL NISA)....Can God be more clear than this?
is there any mention of your "angels" ?
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
It is clear that you do not know if God spoke ever spoke to Moses directly and you are contending even when the Quran says so....so take your rubbish elsewhere pal ! maybe you have not even heard about Khidr ?....with your ignorance you want to dialogue ! ....do you think I am holding your text? that is for you guys !....do you think the text in Tehran is the same as that in Saudi or elsewhere? do you think I would follow a man made text when it is not from Allah and is not HIS perspicous Book? It is meant for ignorants whose hearts Allah has sealed !...not me ! sorry pal !....find a sucker elsewhere !....zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
does it matter? when you have no answer then admit it ! if it is not in your man made interpolations then stop barking !....it is in our Book !.....and our text is not necessarily the same as yours !....just because you are holding a like thereof, and there may exist certain similarities, does not mean you boast unduly as if you own the Quran or the Book of Allah !...zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Admin and all members,
Please judge now for yourselves...when Najmi has no meritorious argument left - nor does have any meaningful answers to give, he is once again resorting to his dirty tactics of repeating and repeating .....he is defeated ! but his pride will not let him concede...lacks knowledge of the scriptures too....thrives on conjectures and whims.....if he thinks Sh'ias are holding the text he has then he really must be dreaming !...zn
Please judge now for yourselves...when Najmi has no meritorious argument left - nor does have any meaningful answers to give, he is once again resorting to his dirty tactics of repeating and repeating .....he is defeated ! but his pride will not let him concede...lacks knowledge of the scriptures too....thrives on conjectures and whims.....if he thinks Sh'ias are holding the text he has then he really must be dreaming !...zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
znan,
Since your text is not the same as ours and your text is not available like ours is, there is no point in quoting your text because I cannot verify if you are lying or speaking the truth. For eg. if I say that according to the quran that I have, Ismailis have been fooled by their fake Imams, will you believe it? Obviously you won't without verification. Similarly, we cannot trust what you say without verification. And since verification is not possible with a hidden book, then the rules of engagement dictate that you cannot use quotes from this hidden book. Remember, every time you quote, I will be forced to ask the same question.
Since your text is not the same as ours and your text is not available like ours is, there is no point in quoting your text because I cannot verify if you are lying or speaking the truth. For eg. if I say that according to the quran that I have, Ismailis have been fooled by their fake Imams, will you believe it? Obviously you won't without verification. Similarly, we cannot trust what you say without verification. And since verification is not possible with a hidden book, then the rules of engagement dictate that you cannot use quotes from this hidden book. Remember, every time you quote, I will be forced to ask the same question.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Sorry I was gone a while. I will try to pick up where I left off.
Deny, twist, dance, whatever you may but the fact remains I did not re-translate anything. It was your brother who put a twist on the translation of an ayat by saying there is a likelihood it means this or that in presence of clear interpretations in your own books. Go ask one of your scholars who really knows and then come back. Anajmi's interpretation does not hold water.
Aarif,Aarif wrote:
Pardesi,
You can keep re-translating what Br. Anajmi said.
Deny, twist, dance, whatever you may but the fact remains I did not re-translate anything. It was your brother who put a twist on the translation of an ayat by saying there is a likelihood it means this or that in presence of clear interpretations in your own books. Go ask one of your scholars who really knows and then come back. Anajmi's interpretation does not hold water.
I am not in the business of retranslating Quran. You could help by explaining what the "likely" meaning could be. Mocking your way out will not get you anywhere. I told you take the hatred out of your head, you will be surprised how much you didn't know. So go find a real scholar to help you with your disease.003.184
YUSUFALI: Then if they reject thee, so were rejected messengers before thee, who came with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment.
PICKTHAL: And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
SHAKIR: But if they reject you, so indeed were rejected before you messengers who came with clear arguments and scriptures and the illuminating book.
Now let's see your re-translation of the above translation
I have provided proof from Quran, Hadith, your Ulema's commentary, one of your highly regarded Islamic scholar's speech, etc. etc. You have rejected all those because it is proving you wrong. So now you want me to prove your idiotic statement wrong from Quran the way you want to see it worded. Let me email Allah to add another ayat in Quran to refute your statement. Unfortunately, my friend, you are blind and deaf and dumb and no matter what I provide, you will not accept it. Allah has sealed your heart. I feel sorry for you soul.... You can start with proving that my below mentioned qoute is not true in the light of Quran and Islam. Goahead take a shot......
the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).
Well in that case I don't think we are going anywhere anytime soon, are we?Once, you prove that the above is wrong we will proceed further...
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
I have provided answer to this repetitive question of yours in my previous post. I am sure I will see it many times more. Its not your fault, its the company you keep!Aarif wrote:Pardesi,
I don't care about clippings.. In the light of Quran you have to prove that my below mentioned qoute is wrong PERIOD
the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).
My English skills are just fine, it may not be perfect, but I think I will pass the test. The Prophet never claimed to have anything to do with Noor. That is because you did not exist in his time. Otherwise he would have. Now this proves you right and everyone of your ulema wrong. It even makes ahadith to that effect suspicious. The Quranic Ayat, as explicit as it is, is questionable because your brother Anajmi put a twist of his own interpretation on it putting doubt over its meaning. Nothing would satisfy your fancy. You have rejected everything else. See you still haven't understood the concept of Noor. It is not a form that humans can take, it is a medium of communication between Allah and whomsoever Allah wishes to inspire. Next time I will just ignore your....ignorance. (for lack of better word).Please learn to read basic english. What I said is that the prophet unlike your Imam did not claim that he was nur of Allah. If people refer to him as that than that is a different story.
Now for arguments sake could you tell me how many Prophets Allah has sent to this world? The names are mentioned in the Quran.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Thats too bad Aarif. If you had only listened to it. Even I as an Ismaili appreciated it. Why, you might ask, that is because although Quran is full of knowledge and wisdom there is still more you could learn outside the scope of Quran in a book form. So I guess there is no point posting the link to part 2 which was even more interesting.Aarif wrote:Pardesi,
I don't care about clippings...
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Najmi,
I am actually at this time only showing you what your own texts are saying ! and these texts circulating in the open market are available for all and not just retards like you though I can understand that you do not know even what is therein and so I am showing you as you were boasting that show me only from the Quran !!! hahahhahah!and we showed you referencing your own texts what you did not even know.... shows you are worthless and don't even know your own books and ahadith and all you have is arrogance and gibbersih nonsense !....now that I show you the ayats you try to twist it around hahahhah!...you sound like you are a joker ! You are defeated ! go - get lost !...zn
I am actually at this time only showing you what your own texts are saying ! and these texts circulating in the open market are available for all and not just retards like you though I can understand that you do not know even what is therein and so I am showing you as you were boasting that show me only from the Quran !!! hahahhahah!and we showed you referencing your own texts what you did not even know.... shows you are worthless and don't even know your own books and ahadith and all you have is arrogance and gibbersih nonsense !....now that I show you the ayats you try to twist it around hahahhah!...you sound like you are a joker ! You are defeated ! go - get lost !...zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
So then why don't you guys explain to us what the Holy prophet attained during Miraj? tell us !
isn't it a fact that even the angel accompanying him was able to accompany him only upto a certain point after which the angel said to the Prophet to now go by himself ?.....go and read your own narrations and books and stop wasting our time !
"We chose them and guided them unto a straight path" (Sura al An'am)
" And he whom God guideth, for him there can be no misleader" ( Sura al Zumar)
The Quran confirms the Intellectual proof of the "isma" of the Prophet ! maybe your text does not ! but check ! and this isma is established prior to Prophets receiving their Prophetic mission !
Was the Prophet charged by God to pass judgment according to the divinely instituted scales of Justice? Yes!
The mere fact that one of the aspects of isma is that there can be no element within their being that may serve as a source of repulsion for mankind, is enough to suggest that he was no ordinary person.
Did the Prophet make disclosures of reality - a reality which is and was at one with divine wisdom? Yes or No ! if you contest then you cannot talk about the miracle of the Quran that he brought to mankind....so he was devoid of fualts....is any ordinary being the same? are you like him? is your Mullah like him? go and ask them ! Allah has even breathed his own Spirit into every creation...so is that not part of HIS Noor ? or is that something else given by the wahabbis ?
Did the prophet possess a profound degree of Gnosis ? Yes or No ? Did he possess a mode of awareness of God? Yes or No ? was the prophet's perception of God same as yours? No ! His was of a divine grandeur so much so that he did not see anything else other than God...are you able to do that? No !
Did God make Mary pure? Yes He did ! Mary was not even a Prophet ! read Sura al Imran !so then just think what is the status of the prophet?
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun like you - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour !
isn't it a fact that even the angel accompanying him was able to accompany him only upto a certain point after which the angel said to the Prophet to now go by himself ?.....go and read your own narrations and books and stop wasting our time !
"We chose them and guided them unto a straight path" (Sura al An'am)
" And he whom God guideth, for him there can be no misleader" ( Sura al Zumar)
The Quran confirms the Intellectual proof of the "isma" of the Prophet ! maybe your text does not ! but check ! and this isma is established prior to Prophets receiving their Prophetic mission !
Was the Prophet charged by God to pass judgment according to the divinely instituted scales of Justice? Yes!
The mere fact that one of the aspects of isma is that there can be no element within their being that may serve as a source of repulsion for mankind, is enough to suggest that he was no ordinary person.
Did the Prophet make disclosures of reality - a reality which is and was at one with divine wisdom? Yes or No ! if you contest then you cannot talk about the miracle of the Quran that he brought to mankind....so he was devoid of fualts....is any ordinary being the same? are you like him? is your Mullah like him? go and ask them ! Allah has even breathed his own Spirit into every creation...so is that not part of HIS Noor ? or is that something else given by the wahabbis ?
Did the prophet possess a profound degree of Gnosis ? Yes or No ? Did he possess a mode of awareness of God? Yes or No ? was the prophet's perception of God same as yours? No ! His was of a divine grandeur so much so that he did not see anything else other than God...are you able to do that? No !
Did God make Mary pure? Yes He did ! Mary was not even a Prophet ! read Sura al Imran !so then just think what is the status of the prophet?
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun like you - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour !
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
znanwala,
A very brief and a very good post. The ones who try to show their wisdom are either bookworms or are taught by people who anyhow want to show their one upmanship even at the cost of creating a divide in the ummah. Ask your opponents whether can they claim to have even a 0.0000001% knowledge inspite of the umpteen number of years devoted to procure the same compared to the knowledge of our Holy Prophet Rasul Allah s.a.w. inspite of He being an ummi (illiterate in the wordly sense), inspite of He not having a worldly tutor ? He had the wisdom and knowledge of the entire universe. How many books did He read or how many madrassas did He attend to gather that knowledge ? The same goes with Hazrat Ali a.s. and the Auliya Allah's. The knowledge they had was given to them by Allah through divine powers. So you see there are scores in this world who dig into every possible book to get Allah's address and leave this world without finding one and there are others who invest their time in the remembrance and love of Allah (like the holy ones as above) and reach their goal.
A very brief and a very good post. The ones who try to show their wisdom are either bookworms or are taught by people who anyhow want to show their one upmanship even at the cost of creating a divide in the ummah. Ask your opponents whether can they claim to have even a 0.0000001% knowledge inspite of the umpteen number of years devoted to procure the same compared to the knowledge of our Holy Prophet Rasul Allah s.a.w. inspite of He being an ummi (illiterate in the wordly sense), inspite of He not having a worldly tutor ? He had the wisdom and knowledge of the entire universe. How many books did He read or how many madrassas did He attend to gather that knowledge ? The same goes with Hazrat Ali a.s. and the Auliya Allah's. The knowledge they had was given to them by Allah through divine powers. So you see there are scores in this world who dig into every possible book to get Allah's address and leave this world without finding one and there are others who invest their time in the remembrance and love of Allah (like the holy ones as above) and reach their goal.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Not sure what you guys are talking about.
znan,
You keep quoting our books and at the same time keep saying that they are corrupted. If they are corrupted, then you should not be quoting them. It seems our books say the same thing that your books do. Busted!!!
I agree with everything you say about the prophet. He had all the qualities you mention. Now can we move on?
znan,
You keep quoting our books and at the same time keep saying that they are corrupted. If they are corrupted, then you should not be quoting them. It seems our books say the same thing that your books do. Busted!!!
I agree with everything you say about the prophet. He had all the qualities you mention. Now can we move on?
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Pardesi,
I have provided enough proof as well defending my qoute. And actually you are the one who is dancing. See the number of posts you have posted in reply to my post. Anyways unless you prove it in the light of Quran my argument still holds. The problem is you actually understand what I am saying but since your fake Imam is the next one in the line of fire you are pretending...
BTW: I am surprised that you are using Yusuf Ali's translation to refute my arguments i.e. translation of the Quran that all the muslims accross the world are using. Is this not the same Quran that a few days back you were saying that it is corrupted, some ayahs are missing etc. Atleast your fellow Ismaili JM had the balls to expose your lies when he admitted that the Ismailis use the same Quran as other muslims. The person who has no respect for Quran is using it to prove his point.
Finally you have failed to provide enough proof in the light of Quran to refute my following argument. Unless you do that my question remains...
I have provided enough proof as well defending my qoute. And actually you are the one who is dancing. See the number of posts you have posted in reply to my post. Anyways unless you prove it in the light of Quran my argument still holds. The problem is you actually understand what I am saying but since your fake Imam is the next one in the line of fire you are pretending...
BTW: I am surprised that you are using Yusuf Ali's translation to refute my arguments i.e. translation of the Quran that all the muslims accross the world are using. Is this not the same Quran that a few days back you were saying that it is corrupted, some ayahs are missing etc. Atleast your fellow Ismaili JM had the balls to expose your lies when he admitted that the Ismailis use the same Quran as other muslims. The person who has no respect for Quran is using it to prove his point.
Finally you have failed to provide enough proof in the light of Quran to refute my following argument. Unless you do that my question remains...
Till than you can keep dancing.the prophet (PBUH) never claimed himself as noor of allah or anything like that... He always referred to himself as messenger of allah... Now if the prophet himself never made any claims like that how did your Imam aquired noor of allah?? This is a logical question (if you understand).
Last edited by Aarif on Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Br. Anajmi,
I understand your good intentions of exposing these bunch of cult worshipping hypocrites. I am completely with you on that. However, this Ismaili liar is trying to twist and turn the simple and starightforward ayahs of Quran. In fact have you noticed that the ayahs which expose him and his fake Imam, he cleverly omits them from his replies to my posts. I would suggest that you start a new thread on hazar Imam because than he will have nowhere to run as nothing about passing of nur from one human being to another is mentioned in Quran...
I understand your good intentions of exposing these bunch of cult worshipping hypocrites. I am completely with you on that. However, this Ismaili liar is trying to twist and turn the simple and starightforward ayahs of Quran. In fact have you noticed that the ayahs which expose him and his fake Imam, he cleverly omits them from his replies to my posts. I would suggest that you start a new thread on hazar Imam because than he will have nowhere to run as nothing about passing of nur from one human being to another is mentioned in Quran...
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turbocanuck
- Posts: 1531
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 4:01 am
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
No Kidding!! lets see.....Arif Najmi....= Anajmi......Aarif wrote:Br. Anajmi,
I am completely with you on that. However, t
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Br. Gulam M
No muslim will ever despute the knowledge of our Prophet (PBUH). He was the chosen one and messenger of Allah. Holy Quran was revealed to him and he preached it to the rest of the world. Please understand that this thread was never started by Pardesi for knowledge sharing. It was a trap laid by an Ismaili worshipping a fake Imam when I had questioned them why their Imam is called nur of Allah when even the prophet did not claim that. If Allah has BESTOWED HIS LIGHT ON PROPHET THAN THAT IS A DIFFERENT THING THAN HE CLAIMING that he is the light of Allah. Now these cheap Ismailis are trying to mix up two different things so that they can stop us from proceeding further and exposing their hazar Imam who is not even capable of translating a single ayah of Quran for his followers who have to depend upon the translation of Yusuf Ali to prove their points against us... I hope you get the point.
No muslim will ever despute the knowledge of our Prophet (PBUH). He was the chosen one and messenger of Allah. Holy Quran was revealed to him and he preached it to the rest of the world. Please understand that this thread was never started by Pardesi for knowledge sharing. It was a trap laid by an Ismaili worshipping a fake Imam when I had questioned them why their Imam is called nur of Allah when even the prophet did not claim that. If Allah has BESTOWED HIS LIGHT ON PROPHET THAN THAT IS A DIFFERENT THING THAN HE CLAIMING that he is the light of Allah. Now these cheap Ismailis are trying to mix up two different things so that they can stop us from proceeding further and exposing their hazar Imam who is not even capable of translating a single ayah of Quran for his followers who have to depend upon the translation of Yusuf Ali to prove their points against us... I hope you get the point.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Turbo,
I make every effort to avoid responding to your's and ZN's post because of obvious reasons. The only thing I want to say is that I am not Anajmi. If you would have been intelligent enough you would have definitely figured that out based on the difference in our writing styles. But unfortunately you are an Ismaili and hence I have to tell you in plain words that I am not Anajmi. Hope you get the point..
I make every effort to avoid responding to your's and ZN's post because of obvious reasons. The only thing I want to say is that I am not Anajmi. If you would have been intelligent enough you would have definitely figured that out based on the difference in our writing styles. But unfortunately you are an Ismaili and hence I have to tell you in plain words that I am not Anajmi. Hope you get the point..
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Admin,
I got your messages. Please accept my apologies for the same. Also, I have one request to make... Can you please make this clear that people should not interchange IDs while referring to others? E.g. I am referred to as Najmi by ZN and Anajmi by Turbo. This definitely offends me because even though I have great respect for Br. Anajmi, I also have an identity of my own...
Thanks,
Aarif
I got your messages. Please accept my apologies for the same. Also, I have one request to make... Can you please make this clear that people should not interchange IDs while referring to others? E.g. I am referred to as Najmi by ZN and Anajmi by Turbo. This definitely offends me because even though I have great respect for Br. Anajmi, I also have an identity of my own...
Thanks,
Aarif
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Aarif,
I would love to start a new thread to talk about the Ismaili Hazar Imam. Unfortunately, the Admin now stands in our way. It is only a matter of time before this discussion about the Ismailis is completely killed off from this board. We will be forced to give it up.
I would love to start a new thread to talk about the Ismaili Hazar Imam. Unfortunately, the Admin now stands in our way. It is only a matter of time before this discussion about the Ismailis is completely killed off from this board. We will be forced to give it up.
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
waayez ka her irshaad baja
taqreer badi dilchasp rahi,
aankhon mein suroor e ishq nahin
chehre pe yaqeen ka noor nahin
taqreer badi dilchasp rahi,
aankhon mein suroor e ishq nahin
chehre pe yaqeen ka noor nahin
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
"If Allah has BESTOWED HIS LIGHT ON PROPHET THAN THAT IS A DIFFERENT THING THAN HE CLAIMING that he is the light of Allah. Now these cheap Ismailis are trying to mix up two different things ..."
What nonsense are you talking ? so now you concede that Allah did Bestow HIS NOOR ! so he is part of the Noor then? why have you folks have been contesting unduly? plus what was this thread all about?.."Is Prophet also referred to as Noor"? You have now conceded that the answer is Yes! Ismailis are right ! certainly it was bestowed and from the point onwards he became part of it and so if he then says that Ali and I are from the same Noor...you have to believe your own Prophet as he was inerrant and enjoyed "Isma"....so did you? No ! why?...zn
What nonsense are you talking ? so now you concede that Allah did Bestow HIS NOOR ! so he is part of the Noor then? why have you folks have been contesting unduly? plus what was this thread all about?.."Is Prophet also referred to as Noor"? You have now conceded that the answer is Yes! Ismailis are right ! certainly it was bestowed and from the point onwards he became part of it and so if he then says that Ali and I are from the same Noor...you have to believe your own Prophet as he was inerrant and enjoyed "Isma"....so did you? No ! why?...zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
"..No muslim will ever despute the knowledge of our Prophet (PBUH). He was the chosen one and messenger of Allah. Holy Quran was revealed to him and he preached it to the rest of the world...."
Really? then why have you been contesting on the various mutawatir ahadith of this verys same Prophet whom you now suddenly claim was the authority and had knowledge....his ahadith speaks for itself....
"...By the soul and by HU that made it perfect and then inspired it to understand what is wrong and what is right for it....Truly is successful the one who purifies (his soul)....(Sura 91 verse 7 - 9)
Such a beautiful verse ! have we ever given it a deep thought ?
Now read this one..." AND Say (to him), Hast thou (the Will) to purify thyself (from sin).....and that "I" Guide thee to thy Lord, so that thou might fear him?..."(Sura al Naz'iat verse 18-19.
So who is the successful one? one who purifies his soul ! how can one do this?.....by following the Prophet's guidance !.....what did the Prophet say?..."hold fast to my Book and to my Progeny..."
"Verily WE have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.." (Sura al Insan - verse 3)
so does this make us cheap ? how ?
zn
Really? then why have you been contesting on the various mutawatir ahadith of this verys same Prophet whom you now suddenly claim was the authority and had knowledge....his ahadith speaks for itself....
"...By the soul and by HU that made it perfect and then inspired it to understand what is wrong and what is right for it....Truly is successful the one who purifies (his soul)....(Sura 91 verse 7 - 9)
Such a beautiful verse ! have we ever given it a deep thought ?
Now read this one..." AND Say (to him), Hast thou (the Will) to purify thyself (from sin).....and that "I" Guide thee to thy Lord, so that thou might fear him?..."(Sura al Naz'iat verse 18-19.
So who is the successful one? one who purifies his soul ! how can one do this?.....by following the Prophet's guidance !.....what did the Prophet say?..."hold fast to my Book and to my Progeny..."
"Verily WE have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.." (Sura al Insan - verse 3)
so does this make us cheap ? how ?
zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
What a load of baloney. You've been contesting a lot of the prophet's hadiths yourself. Infact the Ismailis have invalidated most of the prophet's hadith and sunnah.Really? then why have you been contesting on the various mutawatir ahadith of this verys same Prophet whom you now suddenly claim was the authority and had knowledge....his ahadith speaks for itself....
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Here is another beautiful ayah from the quran.
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
And what did Hazrat Ali do as per the Ismailis? He hid the quran till the day of judgment!! Does anyone think that Hazrat Ali would go against the command of Allah? Naah!!
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
And what did Hazrat Ali do as per the Ismailis? He hid the quran till the day of judgment!! Does anyone think that Hazrat Ali would go against the command of Allah? Naah!!
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Once Ali offered the Book he had done his duty ! Those who misled the people and offered them a compilation put together by their scribes are the ones who actually covered the truth for they should have accepted the Book the Prophet had sent to them through Ali but they chose to reject this ! Ali never hid any truth for he is the Truth himself !by unduly screaming "ismaili ismaili", you will never rattle me pal ! I am made of some different clay !
Ali vs. truth (right path):
===========================
In some versions of the Tradition of Ghadir Khum there is an extra sentence
that is he (Prophet) (PBUH&HF) said:
Wa dara al-haqq maahu haithu dar, literally: And the truth (the
right path) turns with him (i.e. Ali) wherever way he turns.
Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the
commentary of al-Bismilah
Similarly in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, it is narrated that:
The Messenger of God said: O God, have Thy Mercy on Ali. O God,
make the right and the truth with Ali in all situations.
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297
In Arabic, linguistically, the wording (balagha) could play tricks on the
listener. Logically, truth is absolute and not variable. A person, relative
to the truth, could be variable in action.
In this case, the person (i.e. Imam Ali) is placed as the absolute fixed
axes around which the event is taking place; such that, if anything changes
in the persons decision, the event is the thing that will change its track
truth in this case!!! Since, such change is not logically reasonable
due to the absolute nature of truth, then one can conclude that the two are
married and are inseparable. Hence, Ali (AS) stands for truth at all
times.
Thus the saying of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is a metaphoric way to stress
Alis importance and attachment to the truth (right path) such that
Ali (AS) and the right path are indistinguishable.
Whereas, if we put in the reverse order (i.e. Ali turns with truth) it
would leave room, theoretically, for Ali to make other possible turns, by
virtue of Ali being the moving object. This would sound weaker, and would
imply the nature of a non-infallible person.
===============================================
The chains (asnad) of narrations of Ghadir Khum
===============================================
The importance of the tradition of Ghadir Khum in history is reflected in
its widespread documentation and mentioned by the multitude of
personalities over the centuries. Although, some trivialized, only listed
the occurrence among the historical events without giving it a thought, or
discussed the matter in a mixture of emotional judgments, none could deny
the authenticity of these narrations. The essence of what the Messenger of
Allah (PBUH&HF) delivered on the day of Ghadir was not disputed among any,
even if they disagreed on its interpretation, for reasons obvious to
the alert.
Let us look at the lists of some of the Sunni traditions, commentators, and
historians who have documented the tradition of Ghadir Khum in
chronological order:
==============================================================
Sunni Traditionists who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
==============================================================
1. Mohammed Ibn Idris al-Shafii (Imam al-Shafii, d. 204) per
al-Nihayah by Ibn al-Athir
2. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Imam al-Hanbali, d. 241), in Masnad and al-Manaqib
3. Ibn Majah (d. 273), in Sunan Ibn Majah
4. al-Tirmidhi (d. 279), in Sahih al-Tirmidhi
5. al-Nisai (d. 303), in al-Khasais
6. Abu-Yala al-Mousilli (d. 307), in al-Masnad
7. al-Baghawi (d. 317), in al-Sunan
8. al-Doolabi (d. 320), in al-Kuna wal Asmaa
9. al-Tahawi (d. 321), in Mushkil al-Athar
10. al-Hakim (d. 405), in al-Mustadrak
11. Ibn al-Maghazili al-Shafii (d. 483), in al-Manaqib
12. Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 505), in Sirrul `Alamayn
13. Ibn Mindah al-Asbahani (d. 512), in his book
14. al-Khatib al-Khawarizmi (d. 568), in al-Manaqib and Maqtal al-Imam
al-Sibt
15. Abul Faraj Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597), in Manaqib
16. al-Ganji al-Shafii (d. 658), in Kifayat al-Talib
17. Muhib al-Din al-Tabari (d. 694), in al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah and
Dhakhair al-Aqabi
18. al-Hamawainy (d. 722), in Faraid al-Samdtin
19. al-Dhahabi (d. 748), in al-Talkhis
20. al-Khatib al-Tabrizi (d. 8th century), in Mishkat al-Masabih
21. al-Haythami (d. 807), in Majma al-Zawaid
22. al-Jazri (d. 830), in Asna al-Matalib
23. Abul Abbas al-Qastalani (d. 923), in al-Mawahib al-Ladaniya
24. al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975), in Kanz al-Ummal
25. Abdul Haqq al-Dihlawi, in Sharh al-Mishkat
26. al-Hurawi al-Qari (d. 1014), in al-Muraqat fi Sharh al-Mishkat
27. Taj al-Din al-Manawi (d. 1031), in Kunooz al-Haqaiq fi Hadith
Khair al-Khalaiq and Faidh al-Qadir
28. al-Shaikhani al-Qadiri, in al-Siratul Sawi fi Manaqib Aal al-Nabi
29. Ba Kathir al-Makki (d. 1047), in Wasilatul Amal fi Manaqib al-Aal
30. Abu-Abdullah al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122), in Sharh al-Mawahib
31. Ibn Hamzah al-Dimashqi al-Hanafi, in al-Bayan wal Taarif
and many others.
=====================================================
Sunni Commentators of Quran who mentioned Ghadir Khum
=====================================================
The following Sunni commentators mentioned that one or some or all of
the mentioned verses of Quran (such as [5:67] which was about the Allahs
order to Prophet for announcement of appointment of Ali, [5:3] which was
about completeness of religion, and [70:1] which was about the curse of
a person who became angry at the Prophet for this announcement) were
reported to have been revealed in the event of Ghadir Khum:
1. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in Tafsir al-Bayan
2. al-Jassas (d. 370), in Ahkam al-Quran
3. al-Hafiz Abu Nuaym (d. 430), in Asbab al-Nuzool
4. al-Thalabi (d. 427 or 437), in Tafsir al-Thalabi
5. al-Wahidi (d. 468), in Asbab al-Nuzool
6. al-Qurtubi (d. 568), in Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran
7. al-Fakhr al-Razi (d. 606), in al-Tafsir al-Kabir
8. al-Khazin Baghdadi (d. 741), in Tafsir al-Khazin
9. al-Nisaboori (8th century), in Tafsir al-Nisaboori
10. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in his Tafsir (complete version) under the verse
5:3 (It is ommitted in coincise version!) narrated from Ibn Mardawayh.
11. al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti (d. 910), in his Tafsir
12. al-Khatib al-Sharbini, in his Tafsir
13. Abu al-Saud al-Hanafi (d. 972), in his Tafsir
14. al-Aloosi al-Baghdadi (d. 1270), in his Tafsir
and many others.
===========================================================
Sunni Historians who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
===========================================================
1. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276), in Maarif and Imamah wal Siyasah
2. al-Baladhuri (d. 279), in Ansab al-ashraf
3. Ibn Zawlaq al-Laithi al-Misri (d. 287), in his book
4. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in an exclussive book Kitabul Wilayah
5. al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463), in Tarikh Baghdad
6. Ibn Abd al-Bar (d. 463), in al-Istiab
7. al-Shahristani (d. 548), in al-Milal wal Nihal
8. Ibn Asakir (d. 571), in Tarikh Ibn Asakir and Yaqoot al-Hamawi
9. Ibn al-Athir (d. 630), in Usd al-Ghabah
10. Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 654), in Tadhkirat Khawas al-Ummah
11. Ibn Abi al-Hadid (d. 656), in Sharh Nahjul Balagha
12. Ibn Khalkan (d. 681), in Tarikh Ibn Khalkan
13. Abul Fida (d. 732), in his Tarikh
14. al-Dhahabi (d. 748) , in Tadhkirat al-Huffadh
15. al-Yafii (d. 768), in Miraat al-Jinan
16. Ibn al-Shaikh al-Balawi, in Alef Baa
17. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in al-Bidayah wal Nihayah
18. Ibn Khaldoon (d. 808), in al-Muqaddimah
19. al-Nuwairi (d. ~833), in Nihayat al-Irab fi Finoon al-Adab
20. al-Maqrizi (d.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ali vs. truth (right path):
===========================
In some versions of the Tradition of Ghadir Khum there is an extra sentence
that is he (Prophet) (PBUH&HF) said:
Wa dara al-haqq maahu haithu dar, literally: And the truth (the
right path) turns with him (i.e. Ali) wherever way he turns.
Sunni reference: Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, under the
commentary of al-Bismilah
Similarly in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, it is narrated that:
The Messenger of God said: O God, have Thy Mercy on Ali. O God,
make the right and the truth with Ali in all situations.
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p297
In Arabic, linguistically, the wording (balagha) could play tricks on the
listener. Logically, truth is absolute and not variable. A person, relative
to the truth, could be variable in action.
In this case, the person (i.e. Imam Ali) is placed as the absolute fixed
axes around which the event is taking place; such that, if anything changes
in the persons decision, the event is the thing that will change its track
truth in this case!!! Since, such change is not logically reasonable
due to the absolute nature of truth, then one can conclude that the two are
married and are inseparable. Hence, Ali (AS) stands for truth at all
times.
Thus the saying of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) is a metaphoric way to stress
Alis importance and attachment to the truth (right path) such that
Ali (AS) and the right path are indistinguishable.
Whereas, if we put in the reverse order (i.e. Ali turns with truth) it
would leave room, theoretically, for Ali to make other possible turns, by
virtue of Ali being the moving object. This would sound weaker, and would
imply the nature of a non-infallible person.
===============================================
The chains (asnad) of narrations of Ghadir Khum
===============================================
The importance of the tradition of Ghadir Khum in history is reflected in
its widespread documentation and mentioned by the multitude of
personalities over the centuries. Although, some trivialized, only listed
the occurrence among the historical events without giving it a thought, or
discussed the matter in a mixture of emotional judgments, none could deny
the authenticity of these narrations. The essence of what the Messenger of
Allah (PBUH&HF) delivered on the day of Ghadir was not disputed among any,
even if they disagreed on its interpretation, for reasons obvious to
the alert.
Let us look at the lists of some of the Sunni traditions, commentators, and
historians who have documented the tradition of Ghadir Khum in
chronological order:
==============================================================
Sunni Traditionists who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
==============================================================
1. Mohammed Ibn Idris al-Shafii (Imam al-Shafii, d. 204) per
al-Nihayah by Ibn al-Athir
2. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Imam al-Hanbali, d. 241), in Masnad and al-Manaqib
3. Ibn Majah (d. 273), in Sunan Ibn Majah
4. al-Tirmidhi (d. 279), in Sahih al-Tirmidhi
5. al-Nisai (d. 303), in al-Khasais
6. Abu-Yala al-Mousilli (d. 307), in al-Masnad
7. al-Baghawi (d. 317), in al-Sunan
8. al-Doolabi (d. 320), in al-Kuna wal Asmaa
9. al-Tahawi (d. 321), in Mushkil al-Athar
10. al-Hakim (d. 405), in al-Mustadrak
11. Ibn al-Maghazili al-Shafii (d. 483), in al-Manaqib
12. Muhammad al-Ghazzali (d. 505), in Sirrul `Alamayn
13. Ibn Mindah al-Asbahani (d. 512), in his book
14. al-Khatib al-Khawarizmi (d. 568), in al-Manaqib and Maqtal al-Imam
al-Sibt
15. Abul Faraj Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597), in Manaqib
16. al-Ganji al-Shafii (d. 658), in Kifayat al-Talib
17. Muhib al-Din al-Tabari (d. 694), in al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah and
Dhakhair al-Aqabi
18. al-Hamawainy (d. 722), in Faraid al-Samdtin
19. al-Dhahabi (d. 748), in al-Talkhis
20. al-Khatib al-Tabrizi (d. 8th century), in Mishkat al-Masabih
21. al-Haythami (d. 807), in Majma al-Zawaid
22. al-Jazri (d. 830), in Asna al-Matalib
23. Abul Abbas al-Qastalani (d. 923), in al-Mawahib al-Ladaniya
24. al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975), in Kanz al-Ummal
25. Abdul Haqq al-Dihlawi, in Sharh al-Mishkat
26. al-Hurawi al-Qari (d. 1014), in al-Muraqat fi Sharh al-Mishkat
27. Taj al-Din al-Manawi (d. 1031), in Kunooz al-Haqaiq fi Hadith
Khair al-Khalaiq and Faidh al-Qadir
28. al-Shaikhani al-Qadiri, in al-Siratul Sawi fi Manaqib Aal al-Nabi
29. Ba Kathir al-Makki (d. 1047), in Wasilatul Amal fi Manaqib al-Aal
30. Abu-Abdullah al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122), in Sharh al-Mawahib
31. Ibn Hamzah al-Dimashqi al-Hanafi, in al-Bayan wal Taarif
and many others.
=====================================================
Sunni Commentators of Quran who mentioned Ghadir Khum
=====================================================
The following Sunni commentators mentioned that one or some or all of
the mentioned verses of Quran (such as [5:67] which was about the Allahs
order to Prophet for announcement of appointment of Ali, [5:3] which was
about completeness of religion, and [70:1] which was about the curse of
a person who became angry at the Prophet for this announcement) were
reported to have been revealed in the event of Ghadir Khum:
1. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in Tafsir al-Bayan
2. al-Jassas (d. 370), in Ahkam al-Quran
3. al-Hafiz Abu Nuaym (d. 430), in Asbab al-Nuzool
4. al-Thalabi (d. 427 or 437), in Tafsir al-Thalabi
5. al-Wahidi (d. 468), in Asbab al-Nuzool
6. al-Qurtubi (d. 568), in Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran
7. al-Fakhr al-Razi (d. 606), in al-Tafsir al-Kabir
8. al-Khazin Baghdadi (d. 741), in Tafsir al-Khazin
9. al-Nisaboori (8th century), in Tafsir al-Nisaboori
10. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in his Tafsir (complete version) under the verse
5:3 (It is ommitted in coincise version!) narrated from Ibn Mardawayh.
11. al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti (d. 910), in his Tafsir
12. al-Khatib al-Sharbini, in his Tafsir
13. Abu al-Saud al-Hanafi (d. 972), in his Tafsir
14. al-Aloosi al-Baghdadi (d. 1270), in his Tafsir
and many others.
===========================================================
Sunni Historians who mentioned the Tradition of Ghadir Khum
===========================================================
1. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276), in Maarif and Imamah wal Siyasah
2. al-Baladhuri (d. 279), in Ansab al-ashraf
3. Ibn Zawlaq al-Laithi al-Misri (d. 287), in his book
4. Ibn Jarir al-Tabari (d. 310), in an exclussive book Kitabul Wilayah
5. al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463), in Tarikh Baghdad
6. Ibn Abd al-Bar (d. 463), in al-Istiab
7. al-Shahristani (d. 548), in al-Milal wal Nihal
8. Ibn Asakir (d. 571), in Tarikh Ibn Asakir and Yaqoot al-Hamawi
9. Ibn al-Athir (d. 630), in Usd al-Ghabah
10. Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 654), in Tadhkirat Khawas al-Ummah
11. Ibn Abi al-Hadid (d. 656), in Sharh Nahjul Balagha
12. Ibn Khalkan (d. 681), in Tarikh Ibn Khalkan
13. Abul Fida (d. 732), in his Tarikh
14. al-Dhahabi (d. 748) , in Tadhkirat al-Huffadh
15. al-Yafii (d. 768), in Miraat al-Jinan
16. Ibn al-Shaikh al-Balawi, in Alef Baa
17. Ibn Kathir (d. 774), in al-Bidayah wal Nihayah
18. Ibn Khaldoon (d. 808), in al-Muqaddimah
19. al-Nuwairi (d. ~833), in Nihayat al-Irab fi Finoon al-Adab
20. al-Maqrizi (d.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
Ismailis would never invalidate the Prophet's Book which he has left behind or his authentic ahadith !
lets see ...have you followed "aman al Umma"? No !..."al-Thaqalayn"? No ! "al-safina"? No ! "al-Manzila"? No ! Yawm al Dar? No ! so who is the culpable party ? You and your friends like you !...talking of Sunnah of the prophet....assuming it means anything to you then atleast your own salat or namaz should be the same nah? it is not ! lots of divergence amongst yourselves ! or did the prophet leave behind different sunnas for different folks/ huh/.....Cheers !
zn
lets see ...have you followed "aman al Umma"? No !..."al-Thaqalayn"? No ! "al-safina"? No ! "al-Manzila"? No ! Yawm al Dar? No ! so who is the culpable party ? You and your friends like you !...talking of Sunnah of the prophet....assuming it means anything to you then atleast your own salat or namaz should be the same nah? it is not ! lots of divergence amongst yourselves ! or did the prophet leave behind different sunnas for different folks/ huh/.....Cheers !
zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
What nonsense are you talking ? so now you concede that Allah did Bestow HIS NOOR ! so he is part of the Noor then? why have you folks have been contesting unduly? plus what was this thread all about?.."Is Prophet also referred to as Noor"?
This thread was started by Pardesi and not me. So you should ask him and not me. Also, as I have always said you do not make any sense whatsoever with your posts. Please read the ayah posted by Pardesi. It clearly states that only Allah has the right to grant his light to whomever he wishes to grant... Please do not confuse the prophet with Allah.
[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.
[Yusufali 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.
[Pickthal 24:35] Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.
By writing this you have destroyed the safety net that Pardesi has cleverly spun to protect your Imam. Now you people are thouroughly exposed. Br. Anajmi here is your chance to expose these liars... Now you can goahead since loud mouth ZN has spilled the beans...You have now conceded that the answer is Yes! Ismailis are right ! certainly it was bestowed and from the point onwards he became part of it and so if he then says that Ali and I are from the same Noor...you have to believe your own Prophet as he was inerrant and enjoyed "Isma"....so did you? No ! why?...zn
Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"
It is in the books of ahadith that the Prophet said that the first thing Allah created was his Noor. So how does Allah create? Now look at the next hadith.Aarif wrote:
This thread was started by Pardesi and not me. So you should ask him and not me. Also, as I have always said you do not make any sense whatsoever with your posts. Please read the ayah posted by Pardesi. It clearly states that only Allah has the right to grant his light to whomever he wishes to grant... Please do not confuse the prophet with Allah.
The Prophet said and it is in the books of ahadith also that "I and Ali are from the same Noor". Dispute that? I guess not! Now in light of this read the Ayat you quoted again:
Allah has the right to guide whomsoever he wishes. True. But who did He guide to His Light and the bigger question, HOW? He sure didn't guide you as evident from your fitnagiri here. So when Allah chooses to guide the "Chosen One" what does that make him? The Guide. Who was Allah pleased with? Omar, Aba Bakr, Uthman, Muawiya, Yazid, who? It was Prophet Mohammad and his Ahle Bayt only. The rest are the wannabees whom you wish Allah was pleased with that is why you put RA after their names. You also put RA after Ali's name but Allah is already pleased with him and therefore he does not need your recommendation. Coming back to the Light, refer to the two ahadith I quoted above. Isn't it clear that Allah has guided Prophet and Ali to guide the misguided and lost to the right path?[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.
So here your argument is at best nonsense.
You have now conceded that the answer is Yes! Ismailis are right ! certainly it was bestowed and from the point onwards he became part of it and so if he then says that Ali and I are from the same Noor...you have to believe your own Prophet as he was inerrant and enjoyed "Isma"....so did you? No ! why?...zn
I did not spin a safety net for my Imam, he doesn't need it. It is you who is caught in the web you spun for us. You have been trying to "expose" the Ismailis for years under different garbs, what else can you do now to achieve your goal. Heck, the mullahs of Pakistan have been collectively trying to declare us non-muslims and they are way more powerful than you could ever imagine. Even they have not succeeded.By writing this you have destroyed the safety net that Pardesi has cleverly spun to protect your Imam. Now you people are thouroughly exposed. Br. Anajmi here is your chance to expose these liars... Now you can goahead since loud mouth ZN has spilled the beans...
One more question before I go, my lunch break is about to end. How many Prophets and messengers Allah sent? Now I want YOUR answer in light of Quran and Quran only. Please dont be shy. Just answer honestly and to the best of your knowledge. I am not trying to mock you, just trying to prove a point.