Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[anajmi]

And with znan came fabrications.

[znanwalla]

Najmi...No ! You have now openly and publicly conceded that your texts are FABRICATIONS ! and so Thank you ! whether I am quoting from these fabrications or not is irrelevant....the important issue is that YOU have publicly conceded over and over again and that is why I let you repeat it....hahahahah! see how idiotic you are?...that is the state of the "Obsession" cult with their subdued Veggies !...zn

[jawanmardan]

Imamate is foundered on the belief taught by Imam Jaff'ar Al-Sadiq; the Nur din Muhammad (Light of the religion of Muhammad) which Shia believe is transmitted by Imam to Imam by Nass.

This 'Aql (light) can be translated from Arabic as knowledge, or intellect. Through 'aql living beings and non-sentient beings know God, and all humanity is sustained and united.

I have already mentioned previously the two states; the intelligible (batin) which is pure-permanant, and the sensible (zahir) which is mixed-finite; Tafsir is the interpretation, the explanation of the significance, and Tawil which means "to return" (to the source) is the process by which signs (ayats, creation) are followed back along a trail from words and objects to to that moment of certainty, to freedom of the spirit (ruh), returning to the source of it all - Allah (originator).

Through their tawil of events in history, through connecting themselves to the point of all events, to the living soul of the time in which they live; each of our Imams in his own way transforms their being into living Qu'ranic ayat, they manifest the grace of the Qu'ran; through Tafsir; Imam Husayn read the signs and knowledge of his time, and through Tawil he transformed himself in blood and death into victor.

[anajmi]

znan,

What I have conceded is irrelevant. What is relevant is that you concede that you quote fabrications. So you cannot be trusted.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

I am still trying to figure out, what would've been the harm in Imam Hussein simply winning the battle?

[jawanmardan]

anajmi, no harm. Just as their would be no harm in Palestinans defeating the IDF, or Iraqis the US military.

He couldn't do it militarily, history records his circumstance; but he defeated tyranny in another way, the only way he could. The running point between Imam Husayn at Kabbala, or Imam Ubayad Al-Mahdi establishing the Fatmid Empire, any imam runs the same threads of understanding of The Nur Din Muhammad, of Imams being grounded in their time, part of the fabric of their world, grasped in the circumstances of events not always in their control.

[anajmi]

So would you say that Imam Hussein's military victory would've resulted in exactly the same state of the world that we are in today?

[jawanmardan]

It was not meant for him to have a military victory; that was beyond his power, he never reached Kufa, ibn Ziyads blockade of 4,000 men was insurmountable, and the Kufan malawis who had asked him to come and lead them never aided him out of fear. I'll leave it to others to imagine if things could have been different.

For me its not about dwelling on those "what if" moments, but understanding the spiritual significance of the Imams, and how they embody the Tafsir and Tawil of their epoch, and what the Nur din Muhammad from history embodies for us today.

Perhaps things would be different today if we warded off the mongol invasion which many scholars believe obliterated Islamic civilization to such an extent we never truly recovered. Or if we had held on to Al-Andalucie and so would have instead discovered America. If the Ottomans would have broken with the ulema and allowed press printing of the Qu'ran for the masses, and introduced the 24hr clock. Plenty of "What ifs".

We are where we are.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

You obviously figured out where I was going with my line of question. If we answer the "what ifs" that you avoided, the spiritual significance of the Imams, as per the Ismaili reasoning, can be easily negated. Bottom line is, there is only one Imam with any significance and that is the quran. That is the reality. Everything else, as you correctly pointed out, is just a "what if".

[Fatwa Banker]

So would you say that Imam Hussein's military victory would've resulted in exactly the same state of the world that we are in today?

Would you say that the absence of the Quran would have potentially lead to a better [or same] state for those who are now Muslims ? If not, how so ? If so, why ?

[pardesi]

go to page 6 of this thread.

Re: Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

Postby Muslim First on Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:14 am

This is when your long post was deleted and admin supposedly left you a message from your own account

Pardesi, Muslim Frist's message was edited by us, exactly the way we are editing yours now. Does that mean you are also the Admin?
Admin

Apparently it wasn't edited like you did mine. You deleted his whole post and replaced it with your comments from within his own handle. What is one to make out of it? You could have simply deleted his post and and given an explanation from your own account. That would have avoided the confusion. And what is puzzling is that even MF was baffled and had no convincing answer. Anyways, I get your point and stand corrected.

[pardesi]

Admin,

I think it is time you close this thread as the topic has been hijacked, yet again, and now the discussion is about Ismaili Imams and Quran. We have made our point and the opposition has no answer as to the Prophet referred to as NOOR. It is a consensus among Ulemas of both Sunni as well as Shia that the Prophet has been referred as NOOR in Quran and was guided and inspired by this very same NOOR. Unfortunately some here have not even understood what NOOR is. They are expecting a magic lamp. They will be searching for ever and not find this magic lamp. They need to ponder Surah 24 Ayat 35 and leave this thread alone.

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

If you are so sure that I quote fabrications ( best way to make an excuse as you have no answers to our questions, which is understandable as you are a duffer), from yours then how can you say that this is irrelevant ? You are being silly !

First you state categorically that YOUR Imams are Useless and now you are saying your Texts too are Fabricated ! Now I think you really need to have your upper chambers examined....Also you are assuming wrongly that others do not have their own TEXTS and that we only depend on what you may have !!!! Now this too is your stupidty !Then let me say to you that.....

After the passing away of the Prophet, a group of Muslims, under the pressure of the powers of the government of the time, deliberately neglected and obfuscated so as not to take down everything honestly or systematically but fortunately the followers of the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt vigilantly took up this task of making their own recordings and so those who were trained in the school of thought of the Ahl al Bayt have made their own compilations and collections.....

The Prophet had directed Imam Ali on certain issues too.....he was the first to have compiled the Quran and so all this has remained with his family, after his martyrdom and Imam jafar as Sadiq has infact provided descriptions of the Book hand written by Imam Ali also and which was at the dictation of the Holy Prophet and so everything that the people need is described therein and this book has been handed down from generation to generation in the family of Imam Ali and any Sh'ia would confirm this to you....infact there are frequent references to all this in the ahadith of Imam Baqir and Imam Jafar as Sadiq also.....plus many close companions of the Imams have actually seen this Book too and so some of the ahadith from it can be found in the Sh'ii collections especially the Book "Was'ail al Sh'ia" by M Hasan Hurr al Amili....

So Najmi, you are deluded and foolish ...additionally read "al-usul min al-kafi" (8 Volumes) and "al-istibsar" (4 Volumes)...it will provide one with lots of insight which unfortunately ignorants like you and your sponsors don't have.....I can still quote more references.....so Najmi, we do not depend on your texts but certainly we would make references to any scriptures or texts and cross refer and this is quite normal for any scholar to do so......so stop barking ! your dentures might fall out and the Wahabbis will not replace them !...zn

zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi,

I think you did not understand JM....Islam and particularly Sh'ia Islam actually became glorified thereafter and from that point onwards - read your history........Nur e Imamah is one and the same !....so in all this there was a blessing for Islam itself that you cannot see as Allah has sealed your hearts.....Jesus too was crucified?

See what Allah says ..." And when WE took your promise and that you would not shed the blood of your own and would not drive your own from their homes, you then confirmed it as you yourselves bear witness.....BUT then you yourselves killed your own people and drove a group among you out of their homes, assisting efforts against them with iniquity and enmity........Are you not haughty and arrogant whenever a Messenger comes to you with what yourselves do not desire? Some you have branded as liars and others you have killed.."(Sura al Baqara )


zn

[znanwalla]

Najmi....the bottom line is that you do not even have the Quran to begin with and you don't even understand what JM is actually talking about as you are merely reading him on the surface - now his intelligence level and yours is not the same - so I can understand why you don't seem to grasp his underlying message?.....but then JM's language and style is at such a level that duffers like you will not comprehend as you are from the Pit latrine of arabia....!

Allah's Book was and is flawless, complete and clear ! YOUR texts are as screwed up just as your head is all warped !

How can the man made creations of your script writers ( with many pages already eaten by a goat) be Allah's Book? It can't be...so first go and find the Quran...You don't have even the Quran !

You have some Book put together by paid scribes of your ancestors who were given favours by the caliphs to concoct.....plus if anyone was to believe your thinking then it is as good as trying to say that the Prophet did not provide enough guidance to us when he did....and so whom would any sane person believe? You from the Pit latrine? or OUR Holy Prophet?...the answer is also logical !

zn

[znanwalla]

5] And remember, Musa said to his people: "O my people! Why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors......( does this ring a bell for you?) No ! I know you are a duffer....anyway how about this one then?...

"[6] And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery!" ....

najmi, do you know "Ahamad"? do you? okay go and ask your sponsors...let them educate you a bit and then tell you who was Ahamad !...Now let us look at more ayats of the same Sura...

"8] Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: but Allah will protect His Light, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). ....so now do you see that though they tried to wipe off the Ahl al Bayt of the Prophet and martyred Imam Husain and chaining his son and family, they eventually did not succeed in their quest....and what was the end result of Yazid? history will tell you....go and read ....the Munafiqun like you tried this over and over again but they failed to destroy Imamat itself.....and Allah's message is loud and clear !

[9] It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). ...so pagans like you can bark as much....that is the sbest you can do !...zn

[jawanmardan]

jawanmardan,

You obviously figured out where I was going with my line of question.

No anajmi, I hadn't figured out your line of inquiry, you give me much too much credit. I really should have though

If we answer the "what ifs" that you avoided, the spiritual significance of the Imams, as per the Ismaili reasoning, can be easily negated.

No anajmi the "what ifs" from an Isma'ili perspective are irrelevant, what is relevant and what my post regards is how the Imams bind themselves to their age, and embody it from the theological perspective through the "Nur din Muhammad".

In that there is great "spiritual significance", which you seem to confuse with temporal power.

Bottom line is, there is only one Imam with any significance and that is the quran. That is the reality. Everything else, as you correctly pointed out, is just a "what if".

Bottom line is I respect your interpretation, I was merely explaining mine as per the topic.

adois

[anajmi]

Would you say that the absence of the Quran would have potentially lead to a better [or same] state for those who are now Muslims ? If not, how so ? If so, why ?

I think the absence of oil would've led to a better life for the muslims.

[anajmi]

No anajmi, I hadn't figured out your line of inquiry, you give me much too much credit. I really should have though

Sorry. My bad.

Anyway, my point is simple. The shia and the Ismailis need Imam Hussein's sacrifice as much as the christians need Jesus Christ to be crucified. Without either one, the respective religions fall apart.

what is relevant and what my post regards is how the Imams bind themselves to their age,

I haven't seen any real evidence of this. Just fairy tales. For eg. the biggest argument the Ismailis make is that the Imam interprets the quran according to the times. Have you ever seen your Hazar Imam give an alternate interpretation of any ayah of the quran? If you have, can you share it with us?

[Aarif]

JM: This 'Aql (light) can be translated from Arabic as knowledge, or intellect. Through 'aql living beings and non-sentient beings know God, and all humanity is sustained and united.

JM,

This is a good start.. I agree with you partly on this qoute of yours. You are absolutely right when you say Noor or light is knowledge. This is what I always understood about the concept of Noor. Now going further with this understanding the ayah on noor clearly says that it is Allah who will decide whom he wants to give his noor i.e. his knowledge. That is why our prophet (pbuh) was a chosen one in that sense as Allah revealed the holy Quran to us through him. So was Abraham and so was Jesus Christ. If noor would have been a birth right of a particular family than we would have had all our prophets from the same lineage... Hence, Pardesi can keep playing as much dandia raas as he wants and keep begging the Admin to close this thread it is not going to change the facts... This is a big foot in mouth for the truth evaders and liers on this site. In fact this is a good begining for this thread... If you want I can debate with you on this.

[pardesi]

znan,

...... Since the time I slapped you around for that, you've stopped asking for them. You don't need a discussion, you need to be slapped around.

Apnay moo(n) mia(n) mithoo ? All I have seen is that Znan smacked you and your other avatars around with your own text, fabrications, hadiths, literature, and what not! We have made our point and moved on because the Admin is clearly irritated on this and has also put you on notice for circular arguments. Its another thing the defeated never admits but keeps barking well into the night to give the impression that he prevailed.

We will be busy the rest of the week, and the next, celebrating our Imam's Golden Jubilee in Canada. So if you don't hear from us for a few days, don't go around claiming victory and marking the territory as we will be back to put you in your rightful place which is "pit latrine" like Znan mentioned. Until then, savor the moment without us!

[pardesi]

JM,

This is a good start.. I agree with you partly on this qoute of yours. You are absolutely right when you say Noor or light is knowledge. This is what I always understood about the concept of Noor. Now going further with this understanding the ayah on noor clearly says that it is Allah who will decide whom he wants to give his noor i.e. his knowledge. That is why our prophet (pbuh) was a chosen one in that sense as Allah revealed the holy Quran to us through him. So was Abraham and so was Jesus Christ. If noor would have been a birth right of a particular family than we would have had all our prophets from the same lineage... Hence, Pardesi can keep playing as much dandia raas as he wants and keep begging the Admin to close this thread it is not going to change the facts... This is a big foot in mouth for the truth evaders and liers on this site. In fact this is a good begining for this thread... If you want I can debate with you on this.

So what was the covenant of Allah to Ibrahim a.s. Did He not make it a birth right of the rightious among his progeny? You are quick to quote 24:35 that it is Allah Who decides who gets His Noor yet in the very next sentence you are challenging His Will when it is clear in Quran that He has chosen the progeny of Ibrahim. Either that or you don't believe in the "Prophets" that came from Ibrahim's progeny. Whats a Prophet without Noor, right?

I would love to read up your debate with JM on this and I promise I will try to keep myself out, as much as possible.

[Muslim First]

JM

How does NOOR gets transferred from say SMS to Karim Aga khan?

Imagine Noor passing thru Ali Solomon Aga Khan?

Noor must know which way to flow.

Prophet to his cousin Ali

Ali to Hassan and then not to his son but sideway to Hussain

Jafar to dead son Ismail

Not to another living son but to Ismail's son

Down to some questionable lineage to SMS

SMS to Karim skipping Ali Solomon.

And how come you posses NOOR when you are not following 3 of 5 basic requirement of being Muslim?

And you are violating Qur'anic principles by encouraging gambling and consumption of alcohol?

And matter of Qur'anic command of not giving your daughter and sister to non Muslim

It requres lot of faith to ignore above.
.

[Aarif]

Pardesi,

Another stupid post or again foot in mouth... Going by this logic we are all progeny of Adam who was the first prophet(pbuh). Also, Abraham had two sons i.e. Isaac and Ishmail and all the later prophets are believed to have come through their progeny.

Now going further with this basic understanding Jacob, Joseph, Aaron and Moses, David, Solomon, Elias and Elisha, Jonah, Zachariah, John and Jesus were all progeny of Isaac. And remember that there is a lot of time gap between each of these prophets E.g. Aaron and Moses were around 1500 BC and David the next one was around 1040 BC. This again proves that it was not in the hands of prophets to pass their knowledge or light to their own heir. Also, Logically after the death of Jesus the next prophet should have been from his progeny. But our prophet is believed to be from the progeny of Ishmail, who was the other son of Abraham. How do you explain this??? Now here comes the will of Allah... He decides to choose the prophet out of his created men... Our prophet (pbuh) came into being 600 years after the death of Jesus Christ... And he is not from the progeny of Christ...

And yes it would be nice if you will keep out of the debate because that way you will save yourself from embarassment...

[jawanmardan]

my point is simple. The shia and the Ismailis need Imam Hussein's sacrifice as much as the christians need Jesus Christ to be crucified. Without either one, the respective religions fall apart.

The sacrifice is an important lesson regarding unwavering principles and ethics, it is not a sacrament as it is in Christianity.

I haven't seen any real evidence of this. Just fairy tales. For eg. the biggest argument the Ismailis make is that the Imam interprets the quran according to the times. Have you ever seen your Hazar Imam give an alternate interpretation of any ayah of the quran? If you have, can you share it with us?

All religious conviction can be equated as a "fairy tale", conviction and certainty are an individuals reasoned choice.

As I stated above Ta'wil and Tafsir are far broader than individual ayat interpretation by rote, instead they are bound to a greater synergy of human life and living, of Qu'ranic inspiration and real challenges within each epoch to which an Imam is binds his being.

[Muslim First]

.

Geneology of Muhammad

Ibrahim ------------------- 3900 BC

Ismail ----------------------- 2810 BC



Adnan ----------------------- 100 BC

Christian Era ---------------

QUSAYY ------------------------400 CE

Abdul Mutatalib ----------------490 CE

Muhammad ---------------------570 CE

Al-Hijra ------------------------622 CE

According to Ibn Abbas Allah's Prophet never went beyond Ma'add bin Adnan in his geneology.

.

[jawanmardan]

Aarif,

Now going further with this understanding the ayah on noor clearly says that it is Allah who will decide whom he wants to give his noor i.e. his knowledge.

You mentioned the ayat on nur, here is our perspective from our Imam, regarding this ayat in a particular understanding.

Does not al-Qu'ran entice the artisan, as much as the Darvish, to journey beyond “outer" zahir to discover the pure human beneath, to unveil that which lies at the origin yet emparts life to the periphery?

Is not creativity at its very nature, like the ecstasy of the Darvish, a gesture of the spirit, a stirring of the soul that comes from the attempt to experience a glimpse of, and an intimacy with that which is ineffable and beyond being?"

Noor is as I said shared by us all, in us all we are bound by it in humanity. As you said all the Prophets were indeed in some sense related, yet Imamate is not prophethood, for us that binding relationship of master and student is important, The Nour Din Muhammad is the axes by which we discover that which is beyond the human mind to comprehend.

[pardesi]

Aarif,

I am honestly trying to stay out of this for the time being as I am preparing to leave town this evening and may not be able to contribute for a few days. But I must answer, rather, question your statements before I go.

Pardesi,

Another stupid post or again foot in mouth... Going by this logic we are all progeny of Adam who was the first prophet(pbuh).

Is my logic flawed? So are we not all children of Adam? Allah said to Ibrahim that His covenant (about Imams) will not reach the unjust. You expect to be called a Prophet too? just because you are a son of Adam?

Also, Abraham had two sons i.e. Isaac and Ishmail and all the later prophets are believed to have come through their progeny.

Is there any doubt? You seem to believe that it is debatable when you say "believed to have come through their progeny". I believe Allah has been very clear on this issue in the Quran. Have you read it?

Now going further with this basic understanding Jacob, Joseph, Aaron and Moses, David, Solomon, Elias and Elisha, Jonah, Zachariah, John and Jesus were all progeny of Isaac. And remember that there is a lot of time gap between each of these prophets E.g. Aaron and Moses were around 1500 BC and David the next one was around 1040 BC.

But the fact remains that they were from the lineage of Isaac. Have you checked how long each Prophet lived and how long the absence was between two Prophets? And explain to me how Jesus was from the progeny of Isaac when he had no father? I firmly believe he was, do you?

This again proves that it was not in the hands of prophets to pass their knowledge or light to their own heir.

Absolutely correct. Doesn't Allah say in the Quran that He guides to his light whomsoever He Wills? So whats your argument? Noor of Prophets and Aimmah is a Creation of Allah and is subservient to Allah alone. It is by the Command of Allah that the Noor passes from One Prophet to the next or from one Imam to the next.

Also, Logically after the death of Jesus the next prophet should have been from his progeny. But our prophet is believed to be from the progeny of Ishmail, who was the other son of Abraham. How do you explain this??? Now here comes the will of Allah... He decides to choose the prophet out of his created men... Our prophet (pbuh) came into being 600 years after the death of Jesus Christ... And he is not from the progeny of Christ...

Your understanding of "logic" is completely ridiculous. Didn't you say in the later sentence that our Prophet was from the line of Ismail who was the son of Ibrahim. You are mixing and confusing Nabuwah with Imamah. Think for a moment. You mentioned that our prophet came into being 600 years after the "death of Jesus Christ", our Prophet has a hadith that quotes him as saying that he was there when Adam was between Water and Dirt. How is that possible? Can you explain this.

And yes it would be nice if you will keep out of the debate because that way you will save yourself from embarassment...

I am not worried about embarassment. I come here to learn (other peoples' beliefs and understanding) and if I was worried about embarassment I would have left long time ago. You worry about that for yourself as you have got both feet way down in your belly already.

[pardesi]

.

Geneology of Muhammad

Ibrahim ------------------- 3900 BC

Ismail ----------------------- 2810 BC



Adnan ----------------------- 100 BC

Christian Era ---------------

QUSAYY ------------------------400 CE

Abdul Mutatalib ----------------490 CE

Muhammad ---------------------570 CE

Al-Hijra ------------------------622 CE

According to Ibn Abbas Allah's Prophet never went beyond Ma'add bin Adnan in his geneology.

.

MF,

Does that mean that the Prophet said he is not from the lineage of Ibrahim? I know you are a proponent of labelling our Prophet as a son of Idol worshipping infidel and therefore you are attracted to these quotes from Ibn Abbas and deriving nonsensical conclusions out of them. Now here is an audio clip. Pay attention to the clip and read as you go along.

http://www.blinkx.com/video/the-lineage ... WbfG9vllEg

I have more should you need.

[Aarif]

Pardesi,

I was just answering to your post. And no I am not confusing Nubuwat with Imamat as this thread is on Prophet and not Imam. But since you bloody well know in your heart what you are trying to get at you are hearing your own echo...

Again nobody knows with 100% surity about the lineage of prophets. What made them stand out was their qualities and the knowledge they imparted to the masses... As I have said earlier that giving these qualities and knowledge to a certain person is Allah's will. Passing the noor of his knowledge is also Allah's will. There is no heirarchy business... And that is what I am trying to get at. Now you can keep playing Dandia around this topic but I am absolutely clear about what I am saying...