The logic runs simple... if you can not live by the code and ethos of the Dawoodi Bohra, you are free to leave its fold. Your birth into the family does not give you birth right to be one.
You have to show allegiance to the cause of your free will.
What I dont understand, like any other brotherhood or organisation for that matter is for the like minded people, if you want to be a splinter group so be it, for a different group but by and large why fight.
No one is forcing you to be a dawoodi bohra.
Now the issue I see here, is you want to cake and eat it too. You want the benefits of being a Bohra, but cannot follow the dictum of the Dawoodi Bohra. Guys you CANNOT have it that way.
Look at any other community (say parsis) marry a non parsi and the (male or female) cannot enter the fire temple.
I will tell you a good cause to go after...
In india especially Mumbai ... Muslims are barred to own properties on the guise of "non-veg" are not allowed, where is secularism, they will gladly accept a christian (a pig eating fellow) and a parsi or even a jew, but a Muslim not a chance.
So here I am saying bury your hatchet here, Make your voices be heard where they should be for the common Muslim, and not waste time and energy to create a division and discord in the community.
You are free to practice... You believe in Your Lord, We will believe in Ours
There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
dear cool guy this progs are followers of iblis,and we all know what part he played in getting adam sa thrown out of jannat,so this progs also do not want to go to jahannam alone they also need to do as iblis did so in form of being reformists they are trying to also get followers for hell,this they can do only if they are seen to belong to bohra fold
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
hello...
Lets not judge others so quickly.. it is for us to stay true to the path, if the others donnot follow so be it. all i am saying is they have their own faith, let it be, they (splinter or dissedent) should not take to vile and bad mouthing and such uncvilised behaviour, unlike the freedom movement by M.Gandhi, which was for civil liberties and independence. In this case what is the aim freedom from adherence to islamic principles and obligations and yet be called Dawoodi Bohras.... Come on folks
it is not logical...
Lets not judge others so quickly.. it is for us to stay true to the path, if the others donnot follow so be it. all i am saying is they have their own faith, let it be, they (splinter or dissedent) should not take to vile and bad mouthing and such uncvilised behaviour, unlike the freedom movement by M.Gandhi, which was for civil liberties and independence. In this case what is the aim freedom from adherence to islamic principles and obligations and yet be called Dawoodi Bohras.... Come on folks
it is not logical...
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Here we go again...
Welcome coolguy. What you are saying is not new. And the confidence with which you say it betrays your ingnorance. Your simple logic - "you are free to leave its fold" - is as old as the reform movement. From your simplistic reasoning it is clear to me that you are a Dawoodi Bohra just in name and have little understanding of your faith's hisotry and heritage. You need to learn a lot before you can even begin to understand what refomrists are all about.
When you say "if you can not live by the code and ethos of the Dawoodi Bohra" you probably mean the rules set by the all-powerful clergy. You are confusing the tenets of Fatimid faith with the dictates of the current administration (Kothar). These are two different things. What you take to be "code and ethos" are innovations, perversion of faith. And that's what reformists are struggling against.
Where did you get the idea that reformists "want to be a splinter group"? You raise straw men and take delight in knocking them down. Please do us and yourself a favour by going through this site and the message board and try to understand the issues before jumping on a moving train.
I appreciate your concern for questionable 'secularism' in Mumbai/India, but this and the problems with the Bohra community are not mutually exclusive. Both issues have their legitimacy and people are making their voices heard about them.
Welcome coolguy. What you are saying is not new. And the confidence with which you say it betrays your ingnorance. Your simple logic - "you are free to leave its fold" - is as old as the reform movement. From your simplistic reasoning it is clear to me that you are a Dawoodi Bohra just in name and have little understanding of your faith's hisotry and heritage. You need to learn a lot before you can even begin to understand what refomrists are all about.
When you say "if you can not live by the code and ethos of the Dawoodi Bohra" you probably mean the rules set by the all-powerful clergy. You are confusing the tenets of Fatimid faith with the dictates of the current administration (Kothar). These are two different things. What you take to be "code and ethos" are innovations, perversion of faith. And that's what reformists are struggling against.
Where did you get the idea that reformists "want to be a splinter group"? You raise straw men and take delight in knocking them down. Please do us and yourself a favour by going through this site and the message board and try to understand the issues before jumping on a moving train.
I appreciate your concern for questionable 'secularism' in Mumbai/India, but this and the problems with the Bohra community are not mutually exclusive. Both issues have their legitimacy and people are making their voices heard about them.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Kewlguy,
Do you know of a bohra who was allowed to walk out of the bohra community 'peacefully' without being forced to walk out of the family too?
As Humsafar said, do your homework and understand the working of bohra system at social level. Your simplistic thinking suggests that either you are a non bohra or you live too far away from the community to know its reality.
Do you know of a bohra who was allowed to walk out of the bohra community 'peacefully' without being forced to walk out of the family too?
As Humsafar said, do your homework and understand the working of bohra system at social level. Your simplistic thinking suggests that either you are a non bohra or you live too far away from the community to know its reality.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Wasalam coolguy
Isn't it very simplistic to say 'if you can not live by the code and ethos of the Dawoodi Bohra, you are free to leave its fold'? I mean majority bohras have moderate views on the rules set by the kothar today. Does this mean, all these on the fencers should 'get out'? Not even the kothar can afford such a blow.
If you live by the above ideology, no change would ever take place. All the Prophets (pbut) would have been shunned.
Isn't it very simplistic to say 'if you can not live by the code and ethos of the Dawoodi Bohra, you are free to leave its fold'? I mean majority bohras have moderate views on the rules set by the kothar today. Does this mean, all these on the fencers should 'get out'? Not even the kothar can afford such a blow.
If you live by the above ideology, no change would ever take place. All the Prophets (pbut) would have been shunned.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Coolguy suggestion is good in first place, but I think he is not aware of the facts of our community.
The Udaipuries has done the same thing and since majority was with them they are entitled to get rights of managements of all the properties of the community at Udaipur. The Kothar has not left any stone un-turn to make their life miserable. They have been kept away from their families who were leaving out of Udaipur. And at last some mumenins get tired and expected the gundagiri of Kothar and compelled to except the authority of Sayedna. Those who do not believe in this should go to Udaipur and survey, I am sure even most of the shababis will endorsed that yuthi organisation is good and if the kothar allows to leave them peacefully most of the mumenins will get converted to their fold.
If Coolguy simply says that if you don’t agree then just leave. Does he means by that, if you are leaving in a country and the government is corrupt you don’t say any thing and just leave the country and if the country you have selected is again the same you just become a rolling stone.
Most of the mumenins have complaints against the corruption in the working of the jamats and no one can ask any account of the money they have given, even if it is used the wrong way. If somebody ventured to ask he is compelled to apologies or otherwise he will be isolated from his family and friends. I request Coolguy to verify this and show the way what to do in this situation. Remember that what ever properties developed in various towns are made with the contribution of all the mumenins and they have full rights to utilise the same, of course they are also liable to pay towards the maintenance to manage the property and the managers are equally liable to give proper accounts and to utilise the funds for the only purpose it is collected.
The Udaipuries has done the same thing and since majority was with them they are entitled to get rights of managements of all the properties of the community at Udaipur. The Kothar has not left any stone un-turn to make their life miserable. They have been kept away from their families who were leaving out of Udaipur. And at last some mumenins get tired and expected the gundagiri of Kothar and compelled to except the authority of Sayedna. Those who do not believe in this should go to Udaipur and survey, I am sure even most of the shababis will endorsed that yuthi organisation is good and if the kothar allows to leave them peacefully most of the mumenins will get converted to their fold.
If Coolguy simply says that if you don’t agree then just leave. Does he means by that, if you are leaving in a country and the government is corrupt you don’t say any thing and just leave the country and if the country you have selected is again the same you just become a rolling stone.
Most of the mumenins have complaints against the corruption in the working of the jamats and no one can ask any account of the money they have given, even if it is used the wrong way. If somebody ventured to ask he is compelled to apologies or otherwise he will be isolated from his family and friends. I request Coolguy to verify this and show the way what to do in this situation. Remember that what ever properties developed in various towns are made with the contribution of all the mumenins and they have full rights to utilise the same, of course they are also liable to pay towards the maintenance to manage the property and the managers are equally liable to give proper accounts and to utilise the funds for the only purpose it is collected.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
yes progs you are free to leave us whenever you want,and become christian or hindu or atheist whatever and you may keep contact with your family or vice versa but if you leave and then you become part of ajger or insaap then you have are wrong so have to pay ,
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
dear cool guy what you are dealing with here are hypocrates and liars,they want to be part of bohras but no religion ,they want recognition as bohras but do not want to follow any bohra tenets,and most of all the will fight to be burried in a bohra cemetery as if that will give them heaven,this people are bohras in name only and thats all and they have a lot of hatred towards our moula tus and they try to hide it by calling themselves progs or reformists instead of dushman
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
As usal conveniently profrog has not addressed the points raised in my reply. He is far behind the reality. Even he does not know the goonda like behaviour and corrupt practices adopted by the Ayans in almost every jamat.
Has he had any rights to give assurance what he has given in his reply?
Has he had any rights to give assurance what he has given in his reply?
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Salam alekum
If I follow the logic of coolguy to leave then I think we should not be doing Maatam and Imam Husain was also free to leave the fold and walk away. He was given that freedom by Yazid to leave the fold and live in peace in Madinah.
With your logic that one should leave and live in their own freedom then whole FATIMID DAWAT is going to falter and all Ahlul Bait can be faulted for not leaving the fold and giving up their lives for nothing.
If I follow the logic of coolguy to leave then I think we should not be doing Maatam and Imam Husain was also free to leave the fold and walk away. He was given that freedom by Yazid to leave the fold and live in peace in Madinah.
With your logic that one should leave and live in their own freedom then whole FATIMID DAWAT is going to falter and all Ahlul Bait can be faulted for not leaving the fold and giving up their lives for nothing.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Folks enough
You guys are missing the point the point.. with this fighting the muslim community in general and dawoodi bohras in particularly
do you folks know how many firkhas are there in islam. .. 72 ! so you guys be it 73!
refocus on the positive side .. fight the forces from outside.. donot breed dissent from within.
But still you want to take up kothar ...
what gives you right or knowledge, have you approached the due authorities in the precint.
Are you steadfast in your vows during misaq
Look inside you before you go out reforming others, let that task me done how is empowered to do... just stay focused and true and you will get salvation.
If you still donot understand ... go thru sabak
and ask how and why in the proper context and not in a deregotary / challenging fashion
You guys are missing the point the point.. with this fighting the muslim community in general and dawoodi bohras in particularly
do you folks know how many firkhas are there in islam. .. 72 ! so you guys be it 73!
refocus on the positive side .. fight the forces from outside.. donot breed dissent from within.
But still you want to take up kothar ...
what gives you right or knowledge, have you approached the due authorities in the precint.
Are you steadfast in your vows during misaq
Look inside you before you go out reforming others, let that task me done how is empowered to do... just stay focused and true and you will get salvation.
If you still donot understand ... go thru sabak
and ask how and why in the proper context and not in a deregotary / challenging fashion
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Folks enough (reposted because of typos)
You guys are missing the point.. with this infighting the muslim community in general and dawoodi bohras in particularly are loosers
do you folks know how many firkhas are there in islam. .. 72 ! so you guys be it 73!
refocus on the positive side .. fight the forces from outside.. donot breed dissent from within.
But still you want to take up kothar ... so i ask
what gives you right or knowledge, have you approached the due authorities in the locale
Are you steadfast in your vows which you made during misaq
Look inside you before you go out reforming others, let that task be done by who is empowered to do... just stay focused and true and you will get salvation.
If you still donot understand ... go thru sabak
and ask how and why in the proper context and not in a deregotary / challenging fashion.
You guys are missing the point.. with this infighting the muslim community in general and dawoodi bohras in particularly are loosers
do you folks know how many firkhas are there in islam. .. 72 ! so you guys be it 73!
refocus on the positive side .. fight the forces from outside.. donot breed dissent from within.
But still you want to take up kothar ... so i ask
what gives you right or knowledge, have you approached the due authorities in the locale
Are you steadfast in your vows which you made during misaq
Look inside you before you go out reforming others, let that task be done by who is empowered to do... just stay focused and true and you will get salvation.
If you still donot understand ... go thru sabak
and ask how and why in the proper context and not in a deregotary / challenging fashion.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
You have no idea about the history of the reform movement. Please read up before talking about it.what gives you right or knowledge, have you approached the due authorities in the locale
Do you know the text of the misaq? Before you pull misaq on us, do you know what the qualifications of a Dai are?Are you steadfast in your vows which you made during misaq
Like who?let that task be done by who is empowered to do
What!! Who needs salvation?just stay focused and true and you will get salvation
That's talking like a true and pure Bohra. You seem to be a product of "sabak" brainwhashing machine.If you still donot understand ... go thru sabak
Look at all the reformist literature, it's all in proper context and polite language.and ask how and why in the proper context and not in a deregotary / challenging fashion.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
msg for humsafar
your safar will end here on this earth !
You have missed the boat ... but still there is time
repent and come back .. thats all i can say here.
You folks are self proclaimed bohras for the worldly pleasure, and have no intent to take it further than that...
your safar will end here on this earth !
You have missed the boat ... but still there is time
repent and come back .. thats all i can say here.
You folks are self proclaimed bohras for the worldly pleasure, and have no intent to take it further than that...
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
"your safar will end here on this earth !"
You are so damn right, and I've no wish to go any farther than that. By the way there is nothing wrong in "worldly pleasure". In fact worldly pleasure is all that that matters. If you deny it then actually its you who is missing the boat.
You are so damn right, and I've no wish to go any farther than that. By the way there is nothing wrong in "worldly pleasure". In fact worldly pleasure is all that that matters. If you deny it then actually its you who is missing the boat.
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accountability
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Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
As hamsafar correctly pointed out, what is wrong in seeking worldly pleasures.your safar will end here on this earth !
You have missed the boat ... but still there is time
repent and come back .. thats all i can say here.
You folks are self proclaimed bohras for the worldly pleasure, and have no intent to take it further than that...
Now let me walk you through the royal family's worldly pleasure. I hope that you would want us to follow shehzada's life style.
Saifee mahal is renovated to the tune of crores of
rupees. Burhani mahal has costed more than 7 crores till now. The monthly expenditure for maintenance runs into lakhs of rupees. This is despite the fact, that it is only occupied by syedna saheb and shehzadas. If there aren't anyone visiting karachi, it remains vacant but fully maintained.
Syedna Saheb's recent african safari was quiet a worldly fiesta. It was with a chartered plane and big entourage. Royal family maintains very luxurious life style including expensive cars, vast bungalows, posh traveling etc. Have you ever thought of advising them about a brevity of this worldly safar. Mind it their lifestyle is not their's earned.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
There is nothing spiritual about syedna burhanuddin. He is a glutton for worldly pleasures. That is why he has misled you to a point of no return.Originally posted by coolguy:
msg for humsafar
your safar will end here on this earth !
You have missed the boat ... but still there is time
repent and come back .. thats all i can say here.
You folks are self proclaimed bohras for the worldly pleasure, and have no intent to take it further than that...
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
A classic kothar head I win tail you loose dirty trickOriginally posted by coolguy:
You folks are self proclaimed bohras for the worldly pleasure, and have no intent to take it further than that...
If you have faith in Syedna you'll get all the "worldly pleasures" you want - students will succeed in exams, businessmen will see tarakki in vyapar , housewives will shift in a new house separate from inlaws and will find the perfect son/daughter in law, patients will have shifa, migrants will get visa and green card.
If you loose faith, you'll loose all the worldly possessions as a 'divine' punishment (they are not tired of telling us how Adamji Peerbhai became bankrupt after his rebellion).
Now watch this. If you are a detractor and still are well to do, then you are a superficial deluded person running after worldly pleasures, devoid of the deeper essence of life (inherent in the worship of 'spiritual' syedna). You'll be soon robbed of your wealth by the noorani curse anyway.
Finally, if you try to know the purpose of life through reading religious/philosophical literature you are actually being strayed away. You should just close your eyes and burry your head deep in between the noorani thighs and turn your head away when you see corruption. Syedna will take care of your moral/spiritual duties.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
O yeah I forgot to add, they cover this hogwash with the blanket of " Deen ma bhi ane duniya ma bhi"
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like_minded
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Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
What they have to say to the detractors who are well to do is...
All they have achieved is worldly pleasures... akherat ma su thase?
All they have achieved is worldly pleasures... akherat ma su thase?
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like_minded
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Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
God is in frequent consultation with Syedna Burhanuddin.. in regard with the fate of Bohras after death!!
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like_minded
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Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Kothar's meaning of "deen ma bhi, duniya ma bhee"
First Duniya:
Do, vyapar (business) legal or illegal is irrelavant, duplication in products or just supplying bills in the Govt department by corrupting officers in charge, all fair, accumalate money (black money) on which tax is not paid..
And Deen:
Whatever money collected, give it to us (Kothar), sport a foot long beard, become a fidayeen (jaan ane maal si), believe strongly in moula, do kadambossi give zyafats.
First Duniya:
Do, vyapar (business) legal or illegal is irrelavant, duplication in products or just supplying bills in the Govt department by corrupting officers in charge, all fair, accumalate money (black money) on which tax is not paid..
And Deen:
Whatever money collected, give it to us (Kothar), sport a foot long beard, become a fidayeen (jaan ane maal si), believe strongly in moula, do kadambossi give zyafats.
Re: There is No compulsion in being a Moumin
Yes it is a very well worked out 'give and take' relationship. In lieu of salaam, Syedna starts looking the other way when his followers say good bye to ethics. The followers return this favour by condoning (infact vehemently defending) Syedna's moral decadence.
win win situation...
win win situation...