Henceforth Dais without "Nass" will rule us?

[anajmi]

On ghadeer Is declaring Ali(as) as Maula by prophet(pbuh) a myth. By whose permission did prophet(pbuh) proclaim this.

Prophet never did anything without the permission of Allah. The prophet has said similar things about all of his close sahabas. All with the permission of Allah. The prophet said about Hazrat Umar that if the prophet (saw) wasn't the last prophet then Hazrat Umar would've been the next prophet. However the followers of Hazrat Umar did not create a new sect because Hazrat Abu Bakr became the first khalifa and not Hazrat Umar.

Shias have a very stringent way of accepting hadis from prophet(pbuh) which depends on many factors, Quran, chain of narrators, the credibility of narrators etc. I would suggest we should study what procedure shias and sunnis follow in separating right hadis from false. It is a intresting topic to know.

The shia stringent way has created corrupt Dais, and hidden Imams. Hazrat Ali accepted khilafat. That is a fact. Imamat, however, no one knows about. Not since the last Imam went into hiding and his representatives started callings themselves kings and princeses.

Hazrat Ali disowned the people during his time who wanted him to fight for the khilafat.

The reason for this was imamat was required/important to protect the orders of Allah(swt) (refer hadis-e-thaqlayn).

So, then do we have Imamat or no? If we do, then why do shias still curse the first 3 khalifas? If we do not, then it wasn't an order of Allah.

mutameen

besides that compare the xploits of war of the so called first three via a vis that of ali-compare the ilm and intelligence of ali with those 3-its plain that ali and only ali qualified to succeed rasul e khuda and none else

As I said, if it had been the will of Allah that Hazrat Ali succeed the prophet, then no one could've prevented it from happening. But it wasn't.

[mutmaeen]

could allah have willed that imam hussain starve for 3 days? that his harem roam the streets of iraq and syria without veil? that muawiyah[knl] contravene every clause of the pact that he had with imam hassan

[humble_servant_us]

Prophet never did anything without the permission of Allah.

Good. Atleast you accept this unlike some muslim sects who have different view regarding the prophet(pbuh)

The prophet has said similar things about all of his close sahabas. All with the permission of Allah. The prophet said about Hazrat Umar that if the prophet (saw) wasn't the last prophet then Hazrat Umar would've been the next prophet. However the followers of Hazrat Umar did not create a new sect because Hazrat Abu Bakr became the first khalifa and not Hazrat Umar.

There is infinite things told in the name of prophet(pbuh). Are all these to be accepted?. What should be the criteria of accepting/rejecting a hadis from prophet(pbuh). That is why i said let us understand the shia and sunni ways of accepting hadis to know who is more close to identifying the correct hadis of prophet(pbuh)

The shia stringent way has created corrupt Dais, and hidden Imams.

Corruption of Dais is a personal choice, nothing to do with shia school of thought. To understand concept of imam in occultation you need to understand imamat first.

Hazrat Ali accepted khilafat. That is a fact.

This is not a Fact, it is mis-interpretation of a fact.

Not since the last Imam went into hiding and his representatives started callings themselves kings and princeses.

Accepted ,this is wrong and so was H. Abu-bakr declaring himself khalifa after prophet(pbuh) left. As said sometime before, history is full of cases where power mongers have used name of Islam for their material benefits and have self proclaimed themselves as leaders of muslim ummah/sect.

So, then do we have Imamat or no? If we do, then why do shias still curse the first 3 khalifas? If we do not, then it wasn't an order of Allah.

We have imamat as a divine order from ALlah(swt) and we consider the khilafat as a disobedience of Allah(swt)'s supreme order(something what shaytan did to Adam(as)) and we want to dis-associate our selves from those who did it. Hence we pray to allah(swt) for HIS rehmat to be cut from them.

[anajmi]

humble servant,

This discussion is going around in circles. You keep talking about divine order when there is none. As I said, the prophet has said similar things about all this close Sahabas. The shias have chosen to reject those hadis because they do not align with their concept of Imamat and not because they are not from the prophet.

This is not a Fact, it is mis-interpretation of a fact.

Only as per the shia. That is a fact which can safely be ignored.

[anajmi]

The latter Imams simply chose the hadiths which apparently showed them as the successors, as kings and princesses. They rejected everything else. That is how the Dai become God on earth. The hadith were rejected not because of how they came into being or from whom, but because of their content.

For eg. if we had a bunch of Umariyas (just like we have shias), they would've simply picked the hadith that depicted Hazrat Umar as the successor and rejected the rest as fabrications. Thankfully, we don't have Umariyas or Bakariyas. And then these Imams, who were chosen by the divine order of Allah ran into hiding. Of course, they will tell you that they ran into hiding because it was a divine order!!

[mutmaeen]

i would rather trust the direct descendants of hazrat ali who are accepted by all as saintly -imams of the stature of mohd ul baqir jafar us sadiq etc the way they perceived history-would rather trust the dais who were saints as well the hudud of the stature of syedi abdul qadir hakimudin moulaya raj etc than some wahabi hotheads

[anajmi]

Trust direct descendents of Hazrat Ali, but not Hazrat Ali himself!!

[mutmaeen]

its understood that if u trust the dai u trust the imam if u trust the imam u trust the vasi and if u trust the vasi u trust the nabi

[East Africawalla]

Mutmaeen,

Agreed thats our basic faith

[humble_servant_us]

This discussion is going around in circles. You keep talking about divine order when there is none. As I said, the prophet has said similar things about all this close Sahabas. The shias have chosen to reject those hadis because they do not align with their concept of Imamat and not because they are not from the prophet.

I agree this discussion is not heading anyway. To summarise your points
- You look at the corruption of Dai and extrapolate it to the concept of imamat. (This is a mere co-relation)
- I. Ali(as) , not rising against the khalifas is used as an argument to believe he accepted them and so should shias. (Again a interpretation, not a fact)
- You accept event of ghadeer but reject the hadis of prophet(pbuh) regarding successor ship of i. ali(as) just because you have read similar things about other sahabas. (Negative logic)
- You reject shia's ideology of accepting/rejecting hadis , not based on rational but looking at the present situation of the DAI.(Again a co-relation)


Looking at the above points i think all your arguments are based on self interpretaion, co-relation of situation and negative logic. Further trying to understand this i think it all boils down to your frustration against the present Dai .

Maybe if this prejudice is not removed we cannot head anyway.

[anajmi]

I. Ali(as) , not rising against the khalifas is used as an argument to believe he accepted them and so should shias. (Again a interpretation, not a fact)

Hazrat Ali did not rise against the Khalifas. This is a fact and not an interpretation. That he did not accept them is an interpretation of the shias and not a fact. The shias claim that Hazrat Ali did not rise against the khalifas for the sake of Islam, which means that the khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman was for the sake of Islam. humble servant will say that this is an interpretation. Even if it is, then it is an interpretation based on what Hazrat Ali did and not based on a fantasy.

You accept event of ghadeer but reject the hadis of prophet(pbuh) regarding successor ship of i. ali(as) just because you have read similar things about other sahabas. (Negative logic)

Not sure what your interpretation of "Negative Logic" is but it sounds illogical. I do not reject any hadis of the prophet. The shias do!! I simply reject the shia interpretation which was created by their later Imams to cling onto the throne.

You reject shia's ideology of accepting/rejecting hadis , not based on rational but looking at the present situation of the DAI.(Again a co-relation)

There is nothing rational about any shia belief. Shia beliefs have created hidden Imams and corrupt Dais. Shias have accepted and rejected hadis simply to further the ruling agenda of their Dais and Imams who in the last few centuries have either gone into hiding or have converted themselves into kings.

The corruption of the present Dai is simply the result of the shia beliefs. Even if the Dai miraculously reforms himself, the shias will still be cursing the first 3 khalifas, and believe me, I am not going to join them even if the hidden Imam were to knock on my door.

[ghulam muhammed]

mutmaeen, But at the same time cursing from dawat side is more and serious. They condemn everyone who raises even the slightest of voice against any material intrest, and curse them day in and day out. I have never heard or come accross any hadith or conversation by Rasulilah, in which he has condemned anyone or sent lanat on the person. So sending lanat is not and cannot be a divine phenomenon.

Hazrat Ali whose right was perse usurped did not sent lanat or curse on any of the caliph.

This reminds me of an incident which took place in Chennai in the early nineties. It was when the khorakiwalas, tambawalas and many others were ex-communicated by kothar for attending the wedding reception of Late Mr.Huseinibhai Bhagat's son Huzefa's marriage only because Mr.Zain Rangoonwala, the chairman of Bombay Mercantile Co-op Bank too was present and he was at loggerheads with kothar because he had restricted the shehzadas from being appointed on the board of directors of the bank. The subject matter gained lots of publicity in the media too.

During that period, Syed ul kher, the amil of chennai gathered all bohras in the local masjid at night time and ordered them to shower abuses and 'laanat' on Mr.Bhagat. The bohras in one voice said 'khuda ni laanat Huseini Bhagat par'. However, after exchange of money the matter was settled after a few days and Mr.Bhagat was once again a part of mainstream bohras. So this is the purpose for which laanat is often used by Burhanudin saab and his henchmen.

[ghulam muhammed]

Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do. [Al-An’aam 6:159]

The apparent meaning of the Qur’aan indicates that everyone who introduces an innovation into the religion - that they come under this verse, because when they innovate, they argue and dispute [over this innovation], cause divisions and break off into sects."

And be not of Al­Mushrikûn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, polytheists, idolaters, etc). Of those who split up their religion (i.e. the true Islâmic Monotheism), and became sects, [i.e. they invented new things in the religion (Bid'ah), and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it. [Rum 30:31-32]

[JC]

I fully agree with Anajmi.

Ali accepted the Khilafat and that is a FACT ... history proves that. He sat in cabinet, helped khalifas and even fought wars with them - only for the sake of Islam. So logical conclusion is: everyone was working for Islam.

Decendants to Ali were right in the beginning as they were pois men and use to speak for betterment of Muslims and human race. It is at the latter part of history when all these were mixed up, messed and worldly greed and power and wealth came to play in.

There has nothing been a thing as Imamat ....... this is just a fabrication, a creation to RULE and amass wealth and power in the name of Religion. And this started after Karabala - which was ALSO a war for power. Agreed Hussain was a Great Man and was Right, he wanted to create an Islamic State, a real Islamic State and that is why he was proceeding to Iraq to declare his State there. The Battle of Karbala was a fight between Mighty Muslim Kingdom with Revolutionaries such as Hussain. Revolt was crushed with iron hands. Today we feel those revolutionaries were 100% right. Thats it. There is nothing DIVINE about it ......... no need to cry, no need for Matam .... nothing. Our sympathies and salams to all the martyrs of Karbala.

Today Shias in general, use this to keep thier 'identity' intact ......... they 'feel' they are different, and to me, they feel 'sorry' that their great grandfathers did not help Hussain in Karbala who was called and invited by them to establish a real Islamic State there .... so their guilt is double-folded: a. They let Hussain die in vain and b. The real Islamic State could not be established. Today they cry and do matam ......... it is their guilt, they still cannot forgo the grave mistake their forefathers did. And that is the reason Shias are only in Iraq and Iran ... in other parts, because they migrated from those places and settled else where. It is shame, and they display that .......... so we should let them continue ... however, we would appreciate if they stop all this now, as enough is enough. I believe God has forgiven them..!!!! (My ortho Bohra friends - please Burhan has done NASS on me...!!!! anyways at 98, his NASS would be very weak and unable to 'do' any such thing ....lol...)

For Bohras and Kotharis - as I have been saying - Hussain is a 'saleable product' .... they are selling it and making money. the story sells, so why not sell, but you need to 'improve' on your product, so Goons come up with new stories, they need advertisement, so more and more purjosh matam ..... instill the thought the item they are buying is worthwhile ..... exploit the gullible masses ..... 'Hussain Nay Na Bhooljoo' ..... 'Matam Karta Rahjo' .... 'Khuda Hussain Na Gum Na seva Koee Gum Na dekhaway' ..... all this is trying to SELL and SELL and SELL ......... remember our product is best, guranteed to work, always use it, it is economical and worthwhile and does miracles ..........

[Regal]

LOL bro..

whats surprising is that matam is done although in relatively small amounts, during the lailatul qadr in our mosques. i mean what the hell is wrong with people. It is a night for ibadah. and dont give me this b.s that matam is part of ibadah now..and u need to do it after every farz salah or else ur salah wont count....

on the issue of sending lanaats...tell me whats the point in the first place?? God most probably will not count them in on qiyamah. so sending lanaats on everyone does no good except take you back a 1000 years and waste time which could have been spent on say, salawaat lol ...
It wont be like " ok next is Abu Bakr, First caliph of Islam,close friend and father-in-law to the Holy Prophet PBUH etc etc etc..." "wait a min, how many lanaats did people send on him??"
It doesnt matter ppl...your lanats or praises for anyone doesnt count. as is mentioned in the ayat ul kursi

"Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?"

[humble_servant_us]

I am not going to join them even if the hidden Imam were to knock on my door.

This is prejudice. Topic ends here.

[like_minded]

The Battle of Karbala was a fight between Mighty Muslim Kingdom with Revolutionaries such as Hussain. Revolt was crushed with iron hands. Today we feel those revolutionaries were 100% right. Thats it. There is nothing DIVINE about it ......... no need to cry, no need for Matam .... nothing. Our sympathies and salams to all the martyrs of Karbala.

Bro JC

Very well said!!! History is History.... what happened 1400 plus years ago was purely out of circumstances prevailing at that moment, there's nothing more to it... Dramatizing this episode is deliberately done by the clergy to gain mileage out of it.... Its been happening since centuries, and the worst part is... getting carried over for generations to come.... There seems no end to this nonsense, unless of course people wake up and put a stop to it, which I feel is unlikely.


For Bohras and Kotharis - as I have been saying - Hussain is a 'saleable product' .... they are selling it and making money. the story sells, so why not sell, but you need to 'improve' on your product, so Goons come up with new stories, they need advertisement, so more and more purjosh matam ..... instill the thought the item they are buying is worthwhile ..... exploit the gullible masses ..... 'Hussain Nay Na Bhooljoo' ..... 'Matam Karta Rahjo' .... 'Khuda Hussain Na Gum Na seva Koee Gum Na dekhaway' ..... all this is trying to SELL and SELL and SELL ......... remember our product is best, guranteed to work, always use it, it is economical and worthwhile and does miracles ..........

How true!!

[hluqmani]

I notice that in a number of places above Hazrat Ali has been referred to as Imam Ali. According to the Ismaili Tayabi tradition we consider Hazrat Ali to be the Wasi (heir) of the prophet, and the imamat starts from Hasan as.
The ithna asharis call Hazrat Ali their first Imam. Hence e,g Imam Jaffer-us-Sadiq is their 6th Imam whereas for us he is the 5th.

I agree with Saifuddin bhai that the Nass had not been a major issue until the 51st Dai started his regime of oppression and exploitation. Had we had benevolent leadership, the issue of Nass would have been forgotten with time. For almost a hundred years now the community has suffered injustice and financial exploitation.

But worse still, they have been deprived of meaningful religious education. There has been a systematic policy of suppressing knowledge, twisting the facts and brainwashing the young generations. Open dialogue is encouraged only in the “right” direction. Whenever faced with an awkward question, the ready answer is “aa taweel no bayan chhe, tamari samajh si bahir chhe” .
This deliberate and sustained policy of distortion and suppression of knowledge has produced a breed of “ignorant” religious fanatics. It never fails to amaze me how highly intelligent people become totally incapable of rational thought when faced with religious dogma.
To some extent the problem also exists in the reformist group because the majority are financial dissenters rather than ideological ones. Also, many of our priests have been “educated” in the orthodox schools.

Unfortunately this has been going on for such a long time that the manipulators themselves are afflicted with the disease and they truly believe the doctrines they preach. It is a great pity that the breed of Ulama (learned people) who used to surround the Duaat of earlier times is now extinct.

I wonder if Mumineen .org would allow an open forum such as this one

[SBM]

Quote by Br.hluqmani
"It never fails to amaze me how highly intelligent people become totally incapable of rational thought when faced with religious dogma."
It is not that intelligent people become totally incapable of rational thoughts but it is what the Male population will usually say"
Beirawo maate karvo pade che"
One has to credit Kothar goons they knew exactly that by controlling Female segment of Bohra community they will have full control over other gender. I know lot of Orthos who only go to Majaalis and pay all kind of Wajebaats because they want peace in their lives and in their homes. Most of professionals and entrepreneurial Bohras have enough headache at their work and in their companies. In their mind throwing few hundred dollars or dinars buys them peace at home and that is where they give in.
In progressive movement and on this forum we have not seen any female participation that proves the point that Kotharis goons have a good control on that segment of our society..... Some how progressives have not been able to convince them to understand right from wrong.

[TBG]

I have been reading discussions on this forum for the past few months, and I finally decided to pitch in my 2 cents.

Something that I have been meaning to ask our Shia/bohra brothers is the big deal about this whole khilafat and imamat? If we were to accept that Hazrat Ali should have been the first Imam and the first three khalifas were ineligible and wrongly appointed what then? What difference does it make if Hazrat Ali was the first Khalifa or Imam. Do we really think Hazrat Ali himself was concerned about being the first Imam or Khalifa. All he ever cared about was Islam being followed correctly, and he was one of an ideal candidates who could be followed in this regard. He did not in my opinion need to be the Khalifa to be followed.

Islam was taught and preached wholly by RasulAllah (saw) and no one after him in my opinion has the authority to preach accept preach what RasulAllah (Saw) did. We talk about Imams and Dais but what i do not understand is that when we have enough to learn from the life of RasulAllah (Saw) why are we even worried and concerned about other things. Life of RasuAllah (saw) has enough things for us to learn out lifetime, and probably many lifetimes if we wanted to actually practice the way of RasulAllah ( saw), why then are we concerned about what the Imams do or dais. I dont think that Dai or Imams can show anywhere close to what the life of RasulAllah (saw) shows us. Enough work has been done in the past 1400 years by the great scholars and we have enough knowledge and information available to understand religion ourselves. The only issue is whether we want to put any effort or not?

Therefore, my question again is why the need of having Imams and Dais?

[humble_servant_us]

Islam was taught and preached wholly by RasulAllah (saw) and no one after him in my opinion has the authority to preach accept preach what RasulAllah (Saw) did. We talk about Imams and Dais but what i do not understand is that when we have enough to learn from the life of RasulAllah (Saw) why are we even worried and concerned about other things. Life of RasuAllah (saw) has enough things for us to learn out lifetime, and probably many lifetimes if we wanted to actually practice the way of RasulAllah ( saw), why then are we concerned about what the Imams do or dais.

Agreed,Prophet(pbuh)'s life is the best example for us to follow. But the big question is which life of prophet(pbuh) are we talking about , the life which Muslims have portrayed resulting in ill-work written against him or the life as reflected by Ali(as) and the imams. At the least we need imams(as) to show us the true life of the prophet(pbuh). Maula Ali(as)'s life was a true reflection of the life of prophet's(pbuh) and so was of his "true" descendents.

Therefore, my question again is why the need of having Imams and Dais?[

Leadership is a necessity of humans. In a small house also the family works under the leadership of the head, so it is not acceptable that islam could be left without a leader. And the leader should be appointed by Allah(swt) and not by people.

[anajmi]

We all know what has happened to the last Imam appointed by Allah. He went into hiding, only Allah knows for what and then the Dai that he appointed turned out to be the present "God on Earth". Corrupt to the core with blood sucking parasites for children.

Now consider what bohras do. Maatam on every occasion. Is that what Hazrat Ali did? Wajebaat, Sabil, no burial, no marriage if dues are not paid. Is that what Hazrat Ali did? What is it that the bohras follow from the life of Hazrat Ali that any other good muslim does not?

[TBG]

Dear Humble Servant,

I am talking about life that was led by RasulAllah (saw) himself. For this i dont need to look at anyone else's life to know what kind of man he was and what he said and did . Quran, sunnah and his hadith alone are enough to teach us about his actions and words. As far as the correctness of the hadiths goes, again a lot of research has gone in to identify which ones are authentic and which ones are not. I have ready some books that detail the life of RasulAllah (Saw) and to my point earlier even if i am able to follow 0.1% of what he did, i might end up doing some good in this life.

If the life of the Imams is a true reflection, where is the current Imam. I dont think its good enough that he is in hiding and he has appointed someone else to show. If it is the life of RasulAllah (saw) that needs to be shown, how can mere human beings like can show it. Especially in this time and age where we really need true guidance, where is the Imam?

Agreed that leaders are needed, but the question I have is when are leaders needed? Do we need to always have leaders?
Agree with Anajmi on how the Dai has turned out to be?

My Question is are we are sure that we cannot learn anything from the life of RasulAllah (Saw) based on the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith that we need to follow other alternatives?

Allah Hafiz

[humble_servant_us]

Now consider what bohras do. Maatam on every occasion. Is that what Hazrat Ali did? Wajebaat, Sabil, no burial, no marriage if dues are not paid. Is that what Hazrat Ali did? What is it that the bohras follow from the life of Hazrat Ali that any other good muslim does not?

Looking at the wrong deeds of Bohras you are trying to justify shiites wrong. If I go by this logic, the wrong deeds of Muslims all over the world puts a big question on Islam itself. This is what i call negative logic.

I agree Bohras do a lot of things which neither Ali(as) did nor his "true" descendents did, but this in no way proves that you do not require a divinely appointed imam after prophet(pbuh). Bohras deviating is their personal choice , nothing to do with teachings of Ali(as).

Whom do you think is better for leadership, someone whom Allah(swt) selects or someone whom people elect.

My Question is are we are sure that we cannot learn anything from the life of RasulAllah (Saw) based on the Quran, Sunnah and Hadith that we need to follow other alternatives?

Agreed, prophet(pbuh) is the best role model for me to follow. It is he who had declared Ali(as) as "master" of everyone on the day of ghadeer, so we follow him. Don't you agree with this act of prophet(pbuh) and want to follow it.

Well to understand the imam in occultation you have to first understand what imamat is, why is required, what is its role.

[TBG]

Dear,

For my lack of know how could you please tell me where does it say or was mentioned this need of divinely appointed imam after prophet (saw).
Also for my lack of knowledge, where was this mentioned that Allah (swt) will be selecting an imam after RasulAllah (saw).

I have no reservation with following RasulAllah (Saw) and what he has preached us to do, but my point is when i have him to follow, why follow anyone else. I dont need to look anywhere else but his life, his words, his actions. Unless you suggest that Hazrat Ali should be follow regardless??

I can understand leadership requirement right when RasuAllah (saw) passed away, and how important it must have been to have someone lead the ummah. But as of this time and age i dont see the need.

[humble_servant_us]

Dear,

For my lack of know how could you please tell me where does it say or was mentioned this need of divinely appointed imam after prophet (saw). Also for my lack of knowledge, where was this mentioned that Allah (swt) will be selecting an imam after RasulAllah (saw).

Do you accept the event of ghadeer or deny it.

I have no reservation with following RasulAllah (Saw) and what he has preached us to do, but my point is when i have him to follow, why follow anyone else. I dont need to look anywhere else but his life, his words, his actions. Unless you suggest that Hazrat Ali should be follow regardless??

It is good you do not have reservations in what prophet(pbuh) preached than lets go back to history and read what prophet(pbuh) said about Ali(as).

[anajmi]

humble servant,

I agree Bohras do a lot of things which neither Ali(as) did nor his "true" descendents did,

Good.

Now please answer the remaining part of my question.

What is it that the bohras follow from the life of Hazrat Ali that any other good muslim does not?

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

Now consider what bohras do. Maatam on every occasion. Is that what Hazrat Ali did?

Mr Anajmi,

Either u r filled to much and totally confused or u dont know the history at all......Millions of Shia's today do Maatam remembering the tragedy of Kerbala which happened after Hazrat Ali's shahadat....How would have Hazrat Ali did Matam in his life and obviously he cannot do Matam remebering his own Shahadat

[anajmi]

AMZ,

You are absolutely right. Hazrat Ali was amongst the best of muslims and he never did maatam. To be a good muslim and to be a follower of Hazrat Ali, maatam is not a requirement. Maatam was created for theatrical purposes to control zombies.

[SBM]

AMZ
you and Kotharis always talk about Live Like Ali so why not cut down on Maatam I am not saying stop it but do not make mockery of Maatam like doing Maatam to increase the old age of Syedna or ask bride and groom to do Maatam on the most happiest occasion in their life.
Jafferia Community does not do Maatam after every Farad Salata nor do they do Maatam at every gathering. They have left it for Moharram and few other events.
Mumineen aka Abdes have made Maatam a mockery and have created a non important event.