I have been reading thru this Forum for the past 60 days and have visited all the Issues on which the so called reformist (I am not very clear as to why they call themselves as "Reformist" and what "Reform" they want to do) have written pages, I am just summarising these below to have a better remembrence and we get most of it at one place.
1. Kothar not submitting the accounts to public (Money earned and spent)
2. Dai and his family are only making money from the "Bohras" and not giving back anything (Nauzobillah)
3. Difference between Dai and Mazoon only because of huge wealth (Nauzobillah)
4. Concept of "Raza" (As per the so called "reformists" is put in place by the 51st and 52nd Dai)
5. Blind following of the Dai (i.e as per the so called "Reformist" The True bohras do not have any reason behing there Faith)
6. Questions raised by the so called "reformists" on "Nass" , "Imams" and "Zuhur"
7. Cursing Aqa Moula (TUS), {NAUZOBILLAH}, because he met "Narendra Modi", "Bal Thackrey" and leadres who are against Islam
8. Objections on giving donations to the government by "Aqa Moula" during natural calamities
9. Cursing and abusing "Aqa Moula" {Nauzobillah} for his every action
10. Appointing Dai thru election
11. Aqa Moula calling himself "GOD" and "Immortal" {Nauzobillah}
I would soon post my independent views on the above issues, AND ALSO i have following questions to the so called reformists on which they can send a response {As alwayz, no abuses pls}
A. Why do they post funny articles like "Kothar Premiur League" "Bohri Films", Is this part of your reform movement or u call this as "reform"
B. Why do you write "Galis" and always "Curse" our beloved Aqa Moula {Nauzobillah} on his every action, Is there not a better way to post your views or you are immune with using abusive language
C. Do all the so called reformist are confident that they are on the right path and practicing true Islam because without this confidence u actually do not have any right to bring any reform as u urself do not know the True meaning of Reform
All the best
"May Allah grant sehat and long life to our beloved Aqa Moula"
Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
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Aqa Moula_Zindabad
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 11:58 pm
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Welcome, AQZ. You'll find all your answers here: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4088
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jamanpasand
- Posts: 468
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Mr. Zindabad
See, Kalim has explained the reform objectives very clearly in one of his posts from the link above. Here's the full post:
--------------------------
The reform movement is not about religion. It is about social issues. For example, a few key demands of the reformists are transparency in handling community property (including financial resources), reduction in financial burden on common Bohras and non-interference in secular matters. If you read some of the literature on the struggle by reformists you will learn of the horrific trauma and difficulties they have had to face to get these simple demands met. This literature is not all written by reformists. Some of it is written by former judges of the Supreme court, can be found in court proceedings and also newspaper accounts. If you read these it is possible that your faith in the goodness of your demi-god will be a bit shaken. So I suggest, for your own good, you spend no more time reading and remain in fairyland.
Also, this is a free board. If someone criticizes the da'i they do it in their individual capacity. The reformists accept the da'i's position. However, this does not mean that they will blindly follow him and his administration if they do not stick to well established principles laid down in the last 1000 years. The da'i , in the absence of the imam, does not have the authority to modify the religion in a manner he wishes. This has been a principle followed by all duats in the past. Hence, sometimes religion and social issues get intertwined.
Finally, what is this "take it or leave it" nonsense? What gives you the authority to determine this? Please do not use such silly arguments. The system is corrupt and needs to be fixed for the good of all. That is the simple thing which the reformists are trying to achieve. The administration, of course, will portray the Reformists as some sort of demons, but they are just as good, gentle, kind and helpful as any other Bohra. Do not be deceived by the rather nasty discourse on this board. Most of those who engage in foul mouthed debates are here to grind their own axes: Sunnis who hate everyone, Isamilis who think they have to defend their imam and Orthodox and Progressive Bohras who seem to think abuse is the best speech. That is not how majority of Bohras (Orthodox or Reformist) behave. So do not be hasty to judge.
See, Kalim has explained the reform objectives very clearly in one of his posts from the link above. Here's the full post:
--------------------------
The reform movement is not about religion. It is about social issues. For example, a few key demands of the reformists are transparency in handling community property (including financial resources), reduction in financial burden on common Bohras and non-interference in secular matters. If you read some of the literature on the struggle by reformists you will learn of the horrific trauma and difficulties they have had to face to get these simple demands met. This literature is not all written by reformists. Some of it is written by former judges of the Supreme court, can be found in court proceedings and also newspaper accounts. If you read these it is possible that your faith in the goodness of your demi-god will be a bit shaken. So I suggest, for your own good, you spend no more time reading and remain in fairyland.
Also, this is a free board. If someone criticizes the da'i they do it in their individual capacity. The reformists accept the da'i's position. However, this does not mean that they will blindly follow him and his administration if they do not stick to well established principles laid down in the last 1000 years. The da'i , in the absence of the imam, does not have the authority to modify the religion in a manner he wishes. This has been a principle followed by all duats in the past. Hence, sometimes religion and social issues get intertwined.
Finally, what is this "take it or leave it" nonsense? What gives you the authority to determine this? Please do not use such silly arguments. The system is corrupt and needs to be fixed for the good of all. That is the simple thing which the reformists are trying to achieve. The administration, of course, will portray the Reformists as some sort of demons, but they are just as good, gentle, kind and helpful as any other Bohra. Do not be deceived by the rather nasty discourse on this board. Most of those who engage in foul mouthed debates are here to grind their own axes: Sunnis who hate everyone, Isamilis who think they have to defend their imam and Orthodox and Progressive Bohras who seem to think abuse is the best speech. That is not how majority of Bohras (Orthodox or Reformist) behave. So do not be hasty to judge.
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Welcome Sir. I may assume from your post and querries, the level of inteligence.
1. You are admitting that Kothar (syedna Saheb's family) is earning (they say it is wajebat (religious obligation)) from ordinary bohras. If it is an income they have to submit accounts, as well pay the due taxes.
2. Syedna Saheb's family is controlling all donations ( your perse income) spending in all sorts of debauchery, I will give you an example, in 1995 or so when syedna saheb was to visit karachi, Burhani Mahal bathroom was to be renovated. One of her grand daughter had it completely changed at the cost of 3 lac rupees. Another one who came from india, she disapproved the changes and again 2 lacs were spent. When she was gone, the former again changed it at the cost of 2 lac. Syedna saheb's stay was not for more than 2 monts. They spent almost 10 lac rupees on a bathroom. How would you categorize this expenditure, a blatant violation of all ethics and morals. If you have guts, you may ask this from Muffadal Bhaisaheb's wife.
Malik Bhai saheb just recently screwed millions of dollars in USA, for which he had a brush with IRS. Again if you can go and ask Malik bhai saheb. Also ask him how much he likes horse breeding.
3. Mazoon saheb and his diwan was mistreated by Syedna Saheb's nephew and son of Yosouf Najmuddin bhaisaheb on no of occassion. Just recently A large property was transferred in mumbai.
4. The concept of raza at best is oxymorom. I hope you will understand. It is a distortion of religious belief. Yes it was enforced in a very exploitative manner during present administration.
5. I suppose you mean, when in madeh it is said, that you will make slippers with your own skin. I have no objection to that. But it will be very painfull.
6. Nass, imam and zuhur are something above your brain.
7. Cursing any one is immoral. Even Hindu leaders dont take pride in meeting bal thackrey and narendra modi. I hope your point is duly noted by Kothar too.
8. Syedna Saheb has not given any donation on any natual calamity. Even during gujrat earth quake, donation collected from us bohras were embezzled, and if you are a bohra and from gujrat, you should have heard the complaint.
9. I am not aware of any cursing regarding Syedna Saheb's actions.
10. You are totally wrong, no one has ever demanded appoint ment of Dai through election.
11. I have not heard Syedna Saheb calling himself God. Well no one is immortal. Kullu nafsin fi zaiqat ul maut.
1. You are admitting that Kothar (syedna Saheb's family) is earning (they say it is wajebat (religious obligation)) from ordinary bohras. If it is an income they have to submit accounts, as well pay the due taxes.
2. Syedna Saheb's family is controlling all donations ( your perse income) spending in all sorts of debauchery, I will give you an example, in 1995 or so when syedna saheb was to visit karachi, Burhani Mahal bathroom was to be renovated. One of her grand daughter had it completely changed at the cost of 3 lac rupees. Another one who came from india, she disapproved the changes and again 2 lacs were spent. When she was gone, the former again changed it at the cost of 2 lac. Syedna saheb's stay was not for more than 2 monts. They spent almost 10 lac rupees on a bathroom. How would you categorize this expenditure, a blatant violation of all ethics and morals. If you have guts, you may ask this from Muffadal Bhaisaheb's wife.
Malik Bhai saheb just recently screwed millions of dollars in USA, for which he had a brush with IRS. Again if you can go and ask Malik bhai saheb. Also ask him how much he likes horse breeding.
3. Mazoon saheb and his diwan was mistreated by Syedna Saheb's nephew and son of Yosouf Najmuddin bhaisaheb on no of occassion. Just recently A large property was transferred in mumbai.
4. The concept of raza at best is oxymorom. I hope you will understand. It is a distortion of religious belief. Yes it was enforced in a very exploitative manner during present administration.
5. I suppose you mean, when in madeh it is said, that you will make slippers with your own skin. I have no objection to that. But it will be very painfull.
6. Nass, imam and zuhur are something above your brain.
7. Cursing any one is immoral. Even Hindu leaders dont take pride in meeting bal thackrey and narendra modi. I hope your point is duly noted by Kothar too.
8. Syedna Saheb has not given any donation on any natual calamity. Even during gujrat earth quake, donation collected from us bohras were embezzled, and if you are a bohra and from gujrat, you should have heard the complaint.
9. I am not aware of any cursing regarding Syedna Saheb's actions.
10. You are totally wrong, no one has ever demanded appoint ment of Dai through election.
11. I have not heard Syedna Saheb calling himself God. Well no one is immortal. Kullu nafsin fi zaiqat ul maut.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
AMZ,
since u joined this forum a few days ago, u have already realised the democratic freedom this board allows you by letting you freely post yr views and objections AGAINST reformists.
why dont the other bohra sites allow this freedom? all they will allow is posts which have only one slant; viz. praises of the syedna and nothing else. if our bohra community has nothing to hide and are not under any censorship or pressure why dont they allow people to also present their criticisms there, as you are allowed here?
not everyone who posts here is a reformist. there are open reformists who will stick to the official reformist policy, there are 'closet' reformists who are within the larger bohra community but can speak freely over here, there are sunnis, other shias, agnostics, atheists, etc. so drawing a conclusion that whatever is posted here is official reformist policy or is with their blessings, is a wrong and rather simplistic conclusion.
the debates that go on here are within the boundaries of democracy and basic human rights, where people are allowed to hold their own views and do not have to forcibly confirm to only one official policy, as is the case in our community today. to differ or dissent does not mean that we cease to be bohras. it is not anyone's private property or club that you or anyone else, incl. the syedna, can threaten to 'confirm or else..!'
before engaging in any reasonable debate with you, you need to first have an open mind, be prepared to read all the material in the archives on this site, study our bohra history going back last 70-80 years, study all the court cases against the last syedna and the present syedna and then come armed with facts and figures to prove your case that reformists are against religion, islam or our deen, and also prove that whatever the last 2 dais are doing is strictly as per our deen and its scriptures.
let us make it clear that whatever this dai or his father did, does not automatically make it holy or the word of god! they are not infallible or above the law either of the land or of Allah. if your stance is that whatever they do is unquestionable, then there is no point in having a sensible debate with you at all. if you are going to keep repeating allegations and make generalised statements like ' any shaan nirali chhe, 'ena ehsaan beshummar che' etc etc, then we will not waste our time with you. whatever the reformists claim or demand is backed up by authentic facts from our own scriptures like nahjul balagha, daim-ul-islam, tohfatul-qulub, raisal ikhwanussafa, etc, written by our imams - Ali and his progeny, and also backed up by the practices and preachings of the last 50 dais.
so who is right? all the last 50 dai's, all the imams, the prophet and ali, or the last 2 syednas???
if you are here to be HMV - his master's voice (yr credentials are clear with the name you have chosen), then you are obviously uneducated in our history and deen, unread, ill-informed, and prejudiced. it would be for you a totally unequal bout, akin to an emaciated and emasculated lightweight engaging a world heavyweight champion over 15 rounds !!
shouting slogans from rooftops and yelling lies will not influence us or make it magically the truth. you can try that on yr ortho sites and maybe get a title like mulla etc. here it only makes u look silly and childish.
since u joined this forum a few days ago, u have already realised the democratic freedom this board allows you by letting you freely post yr views and objections AGAINST reformists.
why dont the other bohra sites allow this freedom? all they will allow is posts which have only one slant; viz. praises of the syedna and nothing else. if our bohra community has nothing to hide and are not under any censorship or pressure why dont they allow people to also present their criticisms there, as you are allowed here?
not everyone who posts here is a reformist. there are open reformists who will stick to the official reformist policy, there are 'closet' reformists who are within the larger bohra community but can speak freely over here, there are sunnis, other shias, agnostics, atheists, etc. so drawing a conclusion that whatever is posted here is official reformist policy or is with their blessings, is a wrong and rather simplistic conclusion.
the debates that go on here are within the boundaries of democracy and basic human rights, where people are allowed to hold their own views and do not have to forcibly confirm to only one official policy, as is the case in our community today. to differ or dissent does not mean that we cease to be bohras. it is not anyone's private property or club that you or anyone else, incl. the syedna, can threaten to 'confirm or else..!'
before engaging in any reasonable debate with you, you need to first have an open mind, be prepared to read all the material in the archives on this site, study our bohra history going back last 70-80 years, study all the court cases against the last syedna and the present syedna and then come armed with facts and figures to prove your case that reformists are against religion, islam or our deen, and also prove that whatever the last 2 dais are doing is strictly as per our deen and its scriptures.
let us make it clear that whatever this dai or his father did, does not automatically make it holy or the word of god! they are not infallible or above the law either of the land or of Allah. if your stance is that whatever they do is unquestionable, then there is no point in having a sensible debate with you at all. if you are going to keep repeating allegations and make generalised statements like ' any shaan nirali chhe, 'ena ehsaan beshummar che' etc etc, then we will not waste our time with you. whatever the reformists claim or demand is backed up by authentic facts from our own scriptures like nahjul balagha, daim-ul-islam, tohfatul-qulub, raisal ikhwanussafa, etc, written by our imams - Ali and his progeny, and also backed up by the practices and preachings of the last 50 dais.
so who is right? all the last 50 dai's, all the imams, the prophet and ali, or the last 2 syednas???
if you are here to be HMV - his master's voice (yr credentials are clear with the name you have chosen), then you are obviously uneducated in our history and deen, unread, ill-informed, and prejudiced. it would be for you a totally unequal bout, akin to an emaciated and emasculated lightweight engaging a world heavyweight champion over 15 rounds !!
shouting slogans from rooftops and yelling lies will not influence us or make it magically the truth. you can try that on yr ortho sites and maybe get a title like mulla etc. here it only makes u look silly and childish.
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ozmujaheed
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:14 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
AQZ...this site is not only visited by a specific faction in opposition to the current DBJ style of rule. I and others who are not part of mainstream progressives also object and throw barbs for the corrupt, illogical and evil actions of the Orthodox (for which we are all grateful that this board and website has given people of all spiritual levels the space and privelage, that mumuninee.org or malumaat would never even think about ).
We are practising our democratic and intellectual freedom not to lay down and blindly follow the sermons. Your summary therefore is incomplete.
Your motive is strange and unknown and suspicious. Your subject "addressing various issues of so called.." smells more of a mischief ! If I or others respond what then you will summarise and relate to DBJ princes for a miracle change as a formal negotiations ? Are you testing our debating capability ? Are you trying to reason with us to justify DBJ actions and convince and convert ? or we go back into a tail spin regurgitating old stories ?
If you think you have a better explanation of why your list of issues have a Islamic or moral justification then you should start by putting your view point first and others will agree , disagree, judge and make their own minds.
We are practising our democratic and intellectual freedom not to lay down and blindly follow the sermons. Your summary therefore is incomplete.
Your motive is strange and unknown and suspicious. Your subject "addressing various issues of so called.." smells more of a mischief ! If I or others respond what then you will summarise and relate to DBJ princes for a miracle change as a formal negotiations ? Are you testing our debating capability ? Are you trying to reason with us to justify DBJ actions and convince and convert ? or we go back into a tail spin regurgitating old stories ?
If you think you have a better explanation of why your list of issues have a Islamic or moral justification then you should start by putting your view point first and others will agree , disagree, judge and make their own minds.
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East Africawalla
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
AMZ,
Its only a few renegades on this site who I call 'empty drums' who do a lot gaalis and make a lot of noise ( AZ and his henchmen) , most of the others have got their heart at the right place, at the end of the day they are our brethren , on your following points the problem is the conclusions on all the points you highlighted are made from peoples assumptions, some of them facts due to some currupt Amils and committee members misusing funds , some of them due to misunderstanding of Governance , misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a community of 1.5 million, misunderstanding of how our civil service is performing etc etc.
The problem this guys have is they want to assume that they understand the situation and they want us the majority who are in another planet according to them to be made aware how 'bad' the situation is.
I am sure none of this guys have ever paid any contribution to the Bohras cause but they talk as if they are pained that their money is being misused.
Its only a few renegades on this site who I call 'empty drums' who do a lot gaalis and make a lot of noise ( AZ and his henchmen) , most of the others have got their heart at the right place, at the end of the day they are our brethren , on your following points the problem is the conclusions on all the points you highlighted are made from peoples assumptions, some of them facts due to some currupt Amils and committee members misusing funds , some of them due to misunderstanding of Governance , misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a community of 1.5 million, misunderstanding of how our civil service is performing etc etc.
The problem this guys have is they want to assume that they understand the situation and they want us the majority who are in another planet according to them to be made aware how 'bad' the situation is.
I am sure none of this guys have ever paid any contribution to the Bohras cause but they talk as if they are pained that their money is being misused.
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Again EAW you got it wrong my friend. I pay my dues regularly. I know a lot of poeple on this board who pay regularly.
Besides, it is more than the money spent. it is about justness and fairness. It is about religious manipulation. It is about basic self respect and human dignity. You have got the wrong figures. Bohras according to official vazarat.org are numbered at 900,000 world wide. More than 750,000 of them live in india.
My contention is, Religion has no room in my civic life, Religion is not owned or poccessed by any one, no one can claim that they are the masters of destiny. Also no one can send you to heaven or hell, and no one should claim as such. I also have a probelm, when 14 or 16 year old son of Malik Ashter bhaisaheb is sitting, and a 70 years old man of his grand father's age is standing hands together and bowing before him, and that kid's arrogance is reflected in his upbringing. I have problems with this kind of arrogance and indignity.
So I want to reform the above attitude, more than I care about the money being spent. I also have a problem when religion is converted into an empire, and emperor and princes of religion.
Besides, it is more than the money spent. it is about justness and fairness. It is about religious manipulation. It is about basic self respect and human dignity. You have got the wrong figures. Bohras according to official vazarat.org are numbered at 900,000 world wide. More than 750,000 of them live in india.
My contention is, Religion has no room in my civic life, Religion is not owned or poccessed by any one, no one can claim that they are the masters of destiny. Also no one can send you to heaven or hell, and no one should claim as such. I also have a probelm, when 14 or 16 year old son of Malik Ashter bhaisaheb is sitting, and a 70 years old man of his grand father's age is standing hands together and bowing before him, and that kid's arrogance is reflected in his upbringing. I have problems with this kind of arrogance and indignity.
So I want to reform the above attitude, more than I care about the money being spent. I also have a problem when religion is converted into an empire, and emperor and princes of religion.
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Dear AMZ
You started this thread so please give logical answers to all the points so eloquently raised here. Dont give any emotional statements and get away. I'm not a progressive, however, I do agree to a lot of issues that are discussed on this forum and that's why I visit this site quite often. So dont back off. Give reasonable and logical explanations and if you have no answer please don't cover your self by engaging in unnecessary arguments.
All the best and we are all looking forward to your response. Indeed Aqa Maula Zindabad! and Nara-e-Takbeer ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!
You started this thread so please give logical answers to all the points so eloquently raised here. Dont give any emotional statements and get away. I'm not a progressive, however, I do agree to a lot of issues that are discussed on this forum and that's why I visit this site quite often. So dont back off. Give reasonable and logical explanations and if you have no answer please don't cover your self by engaging in unnecessary arguments.
All the best and we are all looking forward to your response. Indeed Aqa Maula Zindabad! and Nara-e-Takbeer ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
A/C very gud posts by you. You have given an excellent answer to this person. Keep it up..
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East Africawalla
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Accountability, Its still a lot of people to look after and as I said that most of the people who come to forum are ok and have valid arguments . In any society you will get a few people who are corrupt , misusing funds, misusing power ( power corrupts) etc
Sometimes its refreshing to read about some injustices around and this sometimes triggers action to be taken
Sometimes its refreshing to read about some injustices around and this sometimes triggers action to be taken
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Your statements are exactly what all the gullible bohras resort to which is the last resort to restore the image of their master Burhanudin saab. To sum it up, the common phrase used by bohras is "Aa to uparwala kare chhe, maula to masoom chhe, emne kai khabar nathi".East Africawalla wrote:on your following points the problem is the conclusions on all the points you highlighted are made from peoples assumptions, some of them facts due to some currupt Amils and committee members misusing funds , some of them due to misunderstanding of Governance , misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a community of 1.5 million, misunderstanding of how our civil service is performing etc etc.
It is like saying that the gujarat mass genocide and rendering lakhs of muslims homeless was the assumptions of some people, some killings took place due to corrupt police officers collusion and BJP commitee members who diverted party's funds to engineer the mass killings, some of them due to misunderstanding of the state cabinet ministers,their policies and governance, misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a state of "paanch crore gujaratis", misunderstanding of how gujarat civil service was performing etc........ At the end, give a clean chit to Narendra Modi by saying "Aa to uparwala kare chhe, modi saheb ne to kai khabar nathi, evan to nirdosh chhe". And then to prove your point, felicitate Modi in your masjid, drape a shawl around him and present him a cheque of Rs.1 crore. Atleast here bohras and their masters "Practice what they preach".
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Why does Burhanudin saab travel around in his car and always accompanied by a jeep of police escorts ? Is this part of Islam or dawoodi bohra sect ?Aqa Moula_Zindabad wrote:Why do they post funny articles like "Kothar Premiur League" "Bohri Films", Is this part of your reform movement or u call this as "reform"
Why does Burhanudin saab roam the streets of London in a rolls royce with a band of pied piper band playing music in frock/skirt like dresses in front of his car ? Is this part of Islam or dawoodi bohra sect ?
Why does tanzeem committees organize cricket matches and funfairs ? Is this part of Islam or dawoodi bohra sect ?
Why does the present and past dai post false articles in newspapers and conduct "fateh" rallies after losing court cases thereby passing a false message that they have won the cases wherein actually they have lost them ? Is lying a part of Islam or dawoodi bohra faith ?
Why does Burhanudin saab always "Curse" the noble sahabas and ummul mumineen and shower abuses and laanats on any given occassion ? Is there not a better way to express his views or he is immune with abusive language.Aqa Moula_Zindabad wrote:Why do you write "Galis" and always "Curse" our beloved Aqa Moula {Nauzobillah} on his every action, Is there not a better way to post your views or you are immune with using abusive language
Do all the so called kotharis are confident that they are on the right path and practicing true Islam inspite of numerous non-islamic practices and money making rackets in the name of Mohurrum vayez, innaugarating masjids and siphoning off wajebat amounts and various galla amounts from bohra dargahs, creating a divide within the ummat of Islam etc.etc.etc., the list is endless. Without this confidence they actually do not have any right to lead any ummat of Islam without knowing the true meaning of Islam.Aqa Moula_Zindabad wrote:Do all the so called reformist are confident that they are on the right path and practicing true Islam because without this confidence u actually do not have any right to bring any reform as u urself do not know the True meaning of Reform
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
EAW says:
“some of them facts due to some currupt Amils and committee members misusing funds , some of them due to misunderstanding of Governance , misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a community of 1.5 million, misunderstanding of how our civil service is performing etc etc.”
Dear Africawala,
The question I have raised in other thread regarding inaugural expenses towards Salam to Sayedna and to others who accompanies him at the time of inauguration.
Can you explain where the Amil fits here? This is the direct bargain from shazadas in front of Sayedna. So please do not blame only Amil, Sayedna and his shezadas also to be blamed for the misuse.
If you want to see the terror of sayed-ul-kher come to Chennai ask common mumenin and you will see that out of 3 two will show you the true face of this robber.
He has increased sabils to 5 times and if any body argues he simply shows a CD contains Sayednas command that he is making sabil 5 times and if you want more barakat pay gunagun. (more then five times)
Tell me here sayedna is not involved.
And if you deny to pay you are well aware the fate!!
Every mumenins know that this giant collection will be syphoned by Sayedul kher and the Sayedna.
“some of them facts due to some currupt Amils and committee members misusing funds , some of them due to misunderstanding of Governance , misunderstanding on the enormity of a job of running a community of 1.5 million, misunderstanding of how our civil service is performing etc etc.”
Dear Africawala,
The question I have raised in other thread regarding inaugural expenses towards Salam to Sayedna and to others who accompanies him at the time of inauguration.
Can you explain where the Amil fits here? This is the direct bargain from shazadas in front of Sayedna. So please do not blame only Amil, Sayedna and his shezadas also to be blamed for the misuse.
If you want to see the terror of sayed-ul-kher come to Chennai ask common mumenin and you will see that out of 3 two will show you the true face of this robber.
He has increased sabils to 5 times and if any body argues he simply shows a CD contains Sayednas command that he is making sabil 5 times and if you want more barakat pay gunagun. (more then five times)
Tell me here sayedna is not involved.
And if you deny to pay you are well aware the fate!!
Every mumenins know that this giant collection will be syphoned by Sayedul kher and the Sayedna.
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
the cd in question where syedna has increased sabeel 5 times is only for sidhpur....and not for any other city
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
May be, but who have guts to ask this goon. There are people but they are not allowed to take part. Literally they are unofficially excomunicated.This Sayedul kher has built his army by hiring gundas from our comunity and if any one dare to speak they beats in such a way that no body dares to speak.
This is the reality
This is the reality
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
ys thats true-chennaites have put up with a lot then they should
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Dear AMZ YOUR QUOTE
"11. Aqa Moula calling himself "GOD" and "Immortal" {Nauzobillah} "
If it is not true then why in Madeh, all Mumineen (aka abdes) recite 'SAJDA TUJHE WAJIB HAYE (Nauzobillah)
Allah has commanded Sajda to him and only him and not to any human being or anyone.
Another one "TU KABBAH HAQIQI HAI"(Naubobillah)
calling Syedna as Haqiqi Kabbah is like saying that going to Makkah is of no importance
"During Vaez saying that doing Tawaaf of Raudat Tahera is like doing Tawaaf of Kabbah (Nauzobillah)
Is equating Raudat Tahera to Makkah is Islamic
JAWAB DO JAWAB DO , TAMAM MUMINEEN (AKA ABDES) JAWAAB DO
"11. Aqa Moula calling himself "GOD" and "Immortal" {Nauzobillah} "
If it is not true then why in Madeh, all Mumineen (aka abdes) recite 'SAJDA TUJHE WAJIB HAYE (Nauzobillah)
Allah has commanded Sajda to him and only him and not to any human being or anyone.
Another one "TU KABBAH HAQIQI HAI"(Naubobillah)
calling Syedna as Haqiqi Kabbah is like saying that going to Makkah is of no importance
"During Vaez saying that doing Tawaaf of Raudat Tahera is like doing Tawaaf of Kabbah (Nauzobillah)
Is equating Raudat Tahera to Makkah is Islamic
JAWAB DO JAWAB DO , TAMAM MUMINEEN (AKA ABDES) JAWAAB DO
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East Africawalla
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
In the past I have said that some bhaisahebs like Khair and his family are crooks and its the people within who need to enforce the change.
This guys have built up a powerful base in India and Africa and needs to be curbed out of their powers.
This guys have built up a powerful base in India and Africa and needs to be curbed out of their powers.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
If i could afford to have henchmen, i wud be giving the syedna and his evil gang a real run for their money!!!!!East Africawalla wrote: ( AZ and his henchmen) , .
thanks for having such a high opinion of my powers, atleast it shows u need to wear pampers when my henchmen and me are around...
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
@EA
Dear East African,
In any organisation the Chief is responsible for what happens, and I am talking about humans. For almost the last two generations, bohras have been hearing how the lower end operators are crooks, but the Syedna is good but helpless. This apology on his behalf does not carry any water.
Bohras consider the Syedna semi divine, they believe he gets vahye from the Imam who is in direct contact with Allah, so why is this rule of responsibility not applicable to him?
Either he is divine with almost super human powers or he is a don of the mafia, trapped in the system created by him and unable to control his henchmen.
If he is neither, explain how we are trapped under crooks who are under his command, but is unable to control?
Do you really mean to say that it is the people who need to enforce the change? Do you accept that the Syedna has given up his control?In the past I have said that some bhaisahebs like Khair and his family are crooks and its the people within who need to enforce the change.
This guys have built up a powerful base in India and Africa and needs to be curbed out of their powers.
Dear East African,
In any organisation the Chief is responsible for what happens, and I am talking about humans. For almost the last two generations, bohras have been hearing how the lower end operators are crooks, but the Syedna is good but helpless. This apology on his behalf does not carry any water.
Bohras consider the Syedna semi divine, they believe he gets vahye from the Imam who is in direct contact with Allah, so why is this rule of responsibility not applicable to him?
Either he is divine with almost super human powers or he is a don of the mafia, trapped in the system created by him and unable to control his henchmen.
If he is neither, explain how we are trapped under crooks who are under his command, but is unable to control?
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Aqa Moula_Zindabad
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 11:58 pm
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Dear East African,
In any organisation the Chief is responsible for what happens, and I am talking about humans. For almost the last two generations, bohras have been hearing how the lower end operators are crooks, but the Syedna is good but helpless. This apology on his behalf does not carry any water.
Smart....I m sure Syedna knows about some of the corrupt Amils....but there are a lot of Haqiqi reasons for not taking any action.....even Prophet (SAW) had kept the 3 Khalifas with him knowing all what is going to happen.....so might question that as well
I am quite often reading thru this forum that people talk about democracy in Islam.....Imagine if there wud have been an absolute democracy in Islam i m sure every single person would have been a separate firqa today as every individual differs in its opinion and as a result there wud hv been war today and no religion wud have ever existed......i think reformists strongly beleive in bringing democracy in Islam today.
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like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
AMZAqa Moula_Zindabad wrote:Dear East African,
In any organisation the Chief is responsible for what happens, and I am talking about humans. For almost the last two generations, bohras have been hearing how the lower end operators are crooks, but the Syedna is good but helpless. This apology on his behalf does not carry any water.
Smart....I m sure Syedna knows about some of the corrupt Amils....but there are a lot of Haqiqi reasons for not taking any action.....even Prophet (SAW) had kept the 3 Khalifas with him knowing all what is going to happen.....so might question that as well
I am quite often reading thru this forum that people talk about democracy in Islam.....Imagine if there wud have been an absolute democracy in Islam i m sure every single person would have been a separate firqa today as every individual differs in its opinion and as a result there wud hv been war today and no religion wud have ever existed......i think reformists strongly beleive in bringing democracy in Islam today.
You are giving a lame excuse here to shield Syedna, And stop comparing his actions with that of the Prophet, There is no justification.
And don't forget, RELIGION is the reason why we have had wars in the past and having wars today, and the future looks bleak too.
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
imam hasan had to sign a treaty with muawiyah[knl] does that reflect negatively on imam?
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like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
Let us not dig history instead focus on whats happening now.mutmaeen wrote:imam hasan had to sign a treaty with muawiyah[knl] does that reflect negatively on imam?
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
AMZ:
If it was done properly, the Caliphate, or Imamat or whichever would have been elected democratically for a strictly roohani or spiritual leadership role. This spiritual leader would have been devoid of managing any state affairs, and would have been accepted throughout the Islamic World, without restricting his alliances with a particular nation. Heads of states in turn would manage only their own nations and the spiritual leader would look after the religious side. This way a conflict would have been avoided and religious matters will be solved democratically. Instead we had this caliphate system which was turned inheritance based kingship, and the Imamate which was so sacred and conflicts arose in matters of inheritance and now the dai's is based on inheritance aswell thanks to the powers that be...The pain in my ass is not the inheritance system i mean thats the only way Imamate would work lol but its the Commander in Chief and the President both in one person role that hurts LOL. State and Religious affairs are separate and should have been kept separate. Abu Bakr and Umar and Usman were all social lords and not religious ones and had high political influence in their tribes...and Hazrat Ali was more of a Religious leader type and things would have been different if these two roles wouldnt have been combined into one.
My question to you all abde-syednas is,....after the death of the current high priest, who succeeeds?? dont the people get any right to choose?? will this be a "oh imam-uz-zaman said this guy should be next dai" closed door thing?? What if the imam picks someone who is not from the royal family what does the royal family do then?? surrender all the mahels and everything ?? LOL ...
I liked what someone said somewhere in this site that Its hard to believe that the Imam in seclusion is putting up with all this current B.S and if he is there somewhere he would have probably left us bohris a long time ago lol.
The views in this post are all mine ...and i know i will get bashed for saying a word against the Imams ...we didnt know them so we cannot judge them based on historical accounts.
Respect~~
Regal.
Look how it is now...every single person is a separate firqa today and there is war and little true religion exists.I am quite often reading thru this forum that people talk about democracy in Islam.....Imagine if there wud have been an absolute democracy in Islam i m sure every single person would have been a separate firqa today as every individual differs in its opinion and as a result there wud hv been war today and no religion wud have ever existed......i think reformists strongly beleive in bringing democracy in Islam today.
If it was done properly, the Caliphate, or Imamat or whichever would have been elected democratically for a strictly roohani or spiritual leadership role. This spiritual leader would have been devoid of managing any state affairs, and would have been accepted throughout the Islamic World, without restricting his alliances with a particular nation. Heads of states in turn would manage only their own nations and the spiritual leader would look after the religious side. This way a conflict would have been avoided and religious matters will be solved democratically. Instead we had this caliphate system which was turned inheritance based kingship, and the Imamate which was so sacred and conflicts arose in matters of inheritance and now the dai's is based on inheritance aswell thanks to the powers that be...The pain in my ass is not the inheritance system i mean thats the only way Imamate would work lol but its the Commander in Chief and the President both in one person role that hurts LOL. State and Religious affairs are separate and should have been kept separate. Abu Bakr and Umar and Usman were all social lords and not religious ones and had high political influence in their tribes...and Hazrat Ali was more of a Religious leader type and things would have been different if these two roles wouldnt have been combined into one.
My question to you all abde-syednas is,....after the death of the current high priest, who succeeeds?? dont the people get any right to choose?? will this be a "oh imam-uz-zaman said this guy should be next dai" closed door thing?? What if the imam picks someone who is not from the royal family what does the royal family do then?? surrender all the mahels and everything ?? LOL ...
I liked what someone said somewhere in this site that Its hard to believe that the Imam in seclusion is putting up with all this current B.S and if he is there somewhere he would have probably left us bohris a long time ago lol.
The views in this post are all mine ...and i know i will get bashed for saying a word against the Imams ...we didnt know them so we cannot judge them based on historical accounts.
Respect~~
Regal.
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
was the nabi elected? can his vasi be elected? no-its one allah one nabi one vasi one imam one dai-its rule of one-autocracy-democracy and islam dont gell religiously
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
lmao dude...maybe thats the way in religious issues, im not sure if this autocratic prestige trickles down to the stature of dai's aswell but lets keep that aside for a moment.mutmaeen wrote:was the nabi elected? can his vasi be elected? no-its one allah one nabi one vasi one imam one dai-its rule of one-autocracy-democracy and islam dont gell religiously
If you read my post a guy with half a brain would have noticed that i believe that the two roles should not be combined. And if they are combined ie one person (be it anyone), who manages religious AND state affairs or in the dais case secular affairs the people have a right to put in their 2 cents. The Holy Prophet PBUH had those two roles due to the neccissity of those times, the persecutions by meccans and all...and when the Prophet PBUH wrote letters to different kings and invited them to Islam he didnt say convert to islam and make me king of your country aswell. The invitation was to Islam and accept Muhammed PBUH as prophet of Allah and ie. only in the capacity of a religious leader.
and dude if you're implying that GOD himself chose the current high priest to rule HIS people on Earth lololol. Seeing past trends the last "chosen ones" were humble and had no material inclinations whatsover. And if you love this autocratic style so dearly go to the taliban they will give you a mouthful....oops i mean handful. lol.
Respect~~
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
as far as going to the talebans is concerned i think the pakis have a monopoly on that-we indians have better things to do
what i meant was-and it requires a quarter of a brain-to understand it-is that nabi vasi imam and dai are never elected democratiucally
as for having two heads-one for religious and the other for political affairs is concerned-most of the imams had no state to run-except the fatemids in egypt-the dais too have no state to run
yes i would agree that secular affairs are best managed by an individual without being dictated to
what i meant was-and it requires a quarter of a brain-to understand it-is that nabi vasi imam and dai are never elected democratiucally
as for having two heads-one for religious and the other for political affairs is concerned-most of the imams had no state to run-except the fatemids in egypt-the dais too have no state to run
yes i would agree that secular affairs are best managed by an individual without being dictated to
Re: Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist
lol. yeah true. though i know what those "better things to do are". sitting in the midst of hindu fundamentalists and kissing syedna's feet seem hardly better to me. lolas far as going to the talebans is concerned i think the pakis have a monopoly on that-we indians have better things to do
aight. i didnt know that, im questioning to understand. so dai's are chosen by the Imam. no questions asked. so i gather from the articles that the title of dai was reserved for the most qualified and loyal members of the ismaili sect, handpicked by the Imam himself, so that they can carry out missionary activities etc. so in effect, anyone even you and me can be chosen as the next dai right...taht brings me to the questions i posted earlier. ill paste them again.what i meant was-and it requires a quarter of a brain-to understand it-is that nabi vasi imam and dai are never elected democratiucally
after the death of the current high priest, who succeeeds??.... will this be a "oh imam-uz-zaman said this guy should be next dai" closed door thing?? What if the imam picks someone who is not from the royal family what does the royal family do then?? surrender all the mahels and everything ?? LOL ...