Addressing Various Issues raised by the so called reformist

[Al Zulfiqar]

As reformists our focus should be on change and reforms as Ijtehadi has pointed out - particularly on thinking of ways and strategies on how we can reach of to common Bohra, how we can help them organise and find courage to stand up to the local Aamil. The real change will come from the grassroots. (Starting a forum for each jamaat is a great idea). When revolt starts springing up from every jamaat, the corrupt clergy will have to take notice. It's only people's power that will bring change - this is the bottom line. As reformists we are supposed to be smart, let's not fall for the cheap tricks of agent provocateurs who come here to excite us into irresponsible behaviour.

humsafar,

there are only THREE committed official reformists who come to this forum regularly, yrself, bhai insaf and hussain ksa. the rest hardly bother. in their own words, they find nothing of interest here and find this forum infested with freelance or closet reformists and ortho abdes (engaged in useless and virulent debates), besides the sunnis, wahabis, and others of various calling, incl. atheists. the opinion about the closet reformists has been very clearly mentioned time and again here, that they are basically cowards in the jamaat but only come here to vent their repressed ire.

whereas only 3 committed reformist individuals come here on their own board to present the official reformist view, you have several dozen abusive orthos, who come here and spread lies, propaganda and slander. how are you going to bring about awareness and provide support at grass roots level to ordinary bohras in their jamaat when 100% of the reformists in the west dont want anything to do anymore with the bohra jamaats or their issues, they dont want to get involved and want to be left alone??

as for the hands-off policy for the syedna, not mentioning his exploits all the time and addressing him respectfully etc. in order not to antagonise the larger group and win their hearts and minds; what is the root cause of all the evil and unislamic practices in our community today? the loot, tyranny, fear and oppression comes from where and whom? the ex-syedna and his son the present syedna are the root cause. they have thrown all the principles and practices of our deen onto the dustbin of history, brainwashed the masses and are committing fraud in broad daylight! unless their credibility, lies and infallibility is not attacked and exposed, reforms will never come. whichever way you turn, the syedna's so-called religious farmaans are there to block and thwart you. i think it is completely wrong policy to treat him so much with kid gloves just so that you will win over bohras to the progressive cause.

the agent provacateurs are merely flies and insects who come to the picnic lunch for their nuisance value. we really dont care whether they come and bark or not. what we care is for the reformists to come and counter them with their official policy statements. it is rather disingenous to let the closet freelancers answer these pests and then still criticise them and ask them to stay away from the syedna. if the orthos dislike it, so be it. he may be a sacred cow to them and they are welcome to have their faith in him as their khuda, we see no need to treat him as one. this is a progressives board which the reformists visit the least and the reform minded bohras visit more. i am not saying that we want and shud abuse the syedna or call him derogatory names, we shud not and cannot descend to the laanat uttering of the syedna and his violent shabab, but calling a spade, respectfully a spade with basic decency protocol is not a gaali as some orthos put it because it hurts their feelings.

for the hapless freelance reformists on this board, it is die if you do and die if u dont. rather strange....! perhaps all such reform minded bohras shud stay away from this forum and let the orthos have their way. sorry for being cynical, but we get criticised for coming here and showing the syedna in a bad light and thus the reformists by default; and we also get criticised privately for not having the guts to officially leave the ortho bohras! a double whammy!!!

reading this will obviously make the orthos rub their hands in glee, vultures that they are, but who cares?

[mutmaeen]

i had said this earlier too-mainstreamers who come here have some ranklings-and when they find fringe elements abusing syedna and eulogising the first 3 sunni netas-when they find mockery of matam and beliefs of theirs then they are put off and even feel that maybe the system they are so disgusted with is better than sunni ideology spewing syedna bashing fringe elements of the progressives

[East Africawalla]

Zulfikar,

We are just trying to help the people at grassroots to come out and root out curruption of some of the Amils and committee members , that can only be done if you tone down your slagging off Syedna otherwise puts off people coming to this forum.

This is exactly happens to people when they ask a relevant question and they are told Syedna said, they use that for their own advantage

Once someone will say that this forum is Syednas Dushman than you will keep on talking and nobody listen therefore what the official Progessive is saying makes sense

[Humsafar]

Ijtehadi,
As I said before I agree with you completely.

Zulfiqar,
You know exactly what I mean. The "hands-off" policy is about abuse and foul language not about exposing the exploits. Showing sayedna in bad light is not the problem, calling him names is. Basic decency should be the norm when addressing not just the Sayedna but everybody else too no matter what the provocation. What I'm saying is simple, pls do not complicate it with other extraneous issues. The reformists in the West have nothing to do with the current discussion. Everybody knows what Sayedna and his family have done to our deen but we've harping on these things for years, day in and day out. We have to move from rhetoric to action. At some point talking has to give way to doing. This is the only way we'll be able to bring change, tangible change on the ground.

You make a good case for freelance reformists and I empathise with their situation but if only they kept the larger reformist cause in mind we wouldn't have to deal with this issue time and again.

[East Africawalla]

Humsafar, thanks for taking an adults view - we will get there one day where change will happen

[Ijtehadi]

Thanks Brother Humsafar:

As for the likes of AZ, please, if you think a change is better than rhetoric and rangling over the same thing, then lets do it. YES WE CAN!!!! Otherwise it only proves that some elements that come here are only to create a fitna and not to solve the problem. Well, that said, I think we should introduce a grading system for each Amil and Mohalla, so that the Amils and his chamcha Ayans can be exposed. Admin should start a new topic on the Forum for this purpose. While the complaining Mumineen hide his/her identity, they should expose the atrocities and the names of the culprits involved. Then Admin or someone so appointed should grade that particular Jamaat, Amil and the Ayans.

If anyone have a better idea please share, with a clean heart. Please bare in mind, we are only trying to reform the Administration of the Jamaats, for now atleast, so again keep the venomous remarks out of this. This is a divine cause, so let's keep it Paak.

May Allah Subhanhu bestow His choicest Karam and Taufeeq on the Mumineen, Ameen. Nara-e-Takbeer: ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!!

[Aarif]

EAW,

You have a point when you say that we cannot blame syedna for everything. Its like blaming the Prime Minister of India for all the corruption going on in the country, which is unfair by all means. But the important point to consider at the same time is that Syedna can definitely make a begining to eliminate corruption and injustice prevailing in the community. He can start this by declaring his successor who is physically and mentally more active than him and who can take charge of the community. He can definitely take him in confidence and instruct him to to bring about positive ammendments and reforms in the day to day administration. Remember bohris still believe that syedna is god. Which essentially means that he needs to be the first one to act in this direction rather than keeping quite and not doing anything about it. E.g. if syedna makes a rule that no Aamil can charge salaam of more than X rs for Y function. In that case will that Aamil dare to do it if it is Moula's farman and all the mumin are made aware of this farman and asked to do amal on it??? So if you ask me its very easy to bring about positive changes in the community provided the right person takes an initiative. And who else can be a better choice than Syedna himself........

[East Africawalla]

Arif,

Its not very easy to run a organisation of a 1 million plus people with a civil service of about at least 20,000 people , things will happen , its not just easy to do decree like that , it can alienate a lot of people who survive on this

So do not blame Molana for all the curruption, the community is originally vepari so curruption is the parcel of the culture.

[Ijtehadi]

Come on guys, share your expert opinions. I have an idea. We can create a new topic on this Forum with a matrix where each victim mumin can share his/her incident:

Jamaat/Mohalaa Amil’s Name No. of years Nature of Atrocity Remarks/Grade
At this Jamaat

Then someone from Admin side can grade this incident and put in their remarks. This way we can have a log of recorded events/atrocities against the Mumineens which can be pursued. All Amils will then be put in check and balance, lest they will end up on this grading list and will be Exposed. Remember even the "Kotharis" (using this Forums lingo) also visit this site regularly, they will also keep an eye on the goings on within the community and will see peoples reaction.

One small step will mean a giant leap for Bohra mankind. So let's do this. We shall overcome!!!!

Nara-e-Takbeer: ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!!!

[Ijtehadi]

Come on guys, share your expert opinions. I have an idea. We can create a new topic on this Forum with a matrix where each victim mumin can share his/her incident:

Jamaat/Mohalaa Amil’s Name No. of years serving at this Jamaat Nature of Atrocity Remarks/Grade


Then someone from Admin side can grade this incident and put in their remarks. This way we can have a log of recorded events/atrocities against the Mumineens which can be pursued. All Amils will then be put in check and balance, lest they will end up on this grading list and will be Exposed. Remember even the "Kotharis" (using this Forums lingo) also visit this site regularly, they will also keep an eye on the goings on within the community and will see peoples reaction.

One small step will mean a giant leap for Bohra mankind. So let's do this. We shall overcome!!!!

Nara-e-Takbeer: ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!!!

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

there are only THREE committed official reformists who come to this forum regularly, yrself, bhai insaf and hussain ksa. the rest hardly bother.

AZ,

U named only 3 committed reformists....than who r u and doing what???

[Aarif]

Its not very easy to run a organisation of a 1 million plus people with a civil service of about at least 20,000 people , things will happen , its not just easy to do decree like that , it can alienate a lot of people who survive on this

So do not blame Molana for all the curruption, the community is originally vepari so curruption is the parcel of the culture.

EAW,

Honestly, your logic is not making any sense.. You are trying to say that since, corruption is part and parcel of our community, let it prvail. You are also trying to say that there is nothing much that can be done about it either in near future because some people are making a living out of it. You are giving numbers like 1 million, 20,000 etc. When general rules are implemented in communities they are followed by millions. So honestly 20,000 is a very small number. Let me ask you one simple question. If syedna wants, don't you think he can support and pay gud salaries to all these aamils and give them strict orders to refrain themselves from corruption??? What if syedna implements a simple policy like a complain box where anyone can drop their complaints if any against the corrupt aamil of that locality. Than he can ask someone to verify the truth about these complaints and if they are real take action against the corrupt aamil.

Why should the poor community suffer financially and mentally because of the corrupt and inhuman rules and regulations??? And when do you think there will be any positive changes really implemented to solve these basic problems????

[East Africawalla]

In an ideal world what you are suggesting its possible but what goes around comes around , one day this people who harrase people and chori kare , will be punished by Allah

[Aarif]

Ijtehadi,

Your idea is gud. However, many true stories of sufferings of mumineens have been published on this forum before. Specially by Omabharti and Br. Insaf. But the orthos have dismissed them as fake which were created only to tarnish the image of the community. The point that I am trying to make is that even if 100 true stories are published on this forum people like EAW will be still singing Ghanu Jeevo without any regret. The orthos are deaf, dumb and inhuman. They do not care about the sufferings of community. As long as they are doing gud by dua mubarak of Moula they are happy.

[Aarif]

In an ideal world what you are suggesting its possible but what goes around comes around , one day this people who harrase people and chori kare , will be punished by Allah

I am not talking about ideal world... I am talking about real world. In a real world people live by certain laws that create a positive environment to live and if violated are subject to punishment. Our community has no such laws. No written laws against the corrupt administration to protect people from becoming victims of corruption, no laws to protect basic human rights and dignity, no laws to raise your voice against immoral and unethical activities carried out in the name of religion etc. The list goes on. Our community is a gud example of enslavement. In short all orthos are slaves of syedna and a slave does not have any rights whatsoever.....

[East Africawalla]

Once again you are assuming , do you live in a real world, what you are portraying does not happen as you suggest otherwise there will be outrage, pls start visiting our community more to understand what really happens, enslaved my foot, we do not take crap from anyone mate

[Aarif]

Once again you are assuming , do you live in a real world, what you are portraying does not happen as you suggest otherwise there will be outrage, pls start visiting our community more to understand what really happens, enslaved my foot, we do not take crap from anyone mate

EAW,

What you are writing on this forum is equally out of place as far as the real community happenings are concerned. I had recently been to India and attended a wedding. The aamil made a gud amount of money taking advantage of the occasion from both the parties i.e. boy and girl. And on top of that showed the attitude as if he was obliging them by taking a lot of money from them and doing their Nikah. Also, about the crap part, do you have the balls to go to a corrupt aamil and tell on his face that he is corrupt and should be punished for the same??? Can any bohra go and openly complain about his/her exploitation at the hands of corrupt aamils??? So stop this BS of positive change in our community. Can you list down some of the positive changes that our community has gone through since 70's in terms of eliminating corruption and treating people like human beings???

[Ijtehadi]

Bro Aarif:

That's why we need to start a covert operation under this Forum. Just let the people come and speak their incidents. Popularize this forum so that more and more people come and read and gradually muster courage, so that Inshahallah one day they will stand up individually and collectively.

Some Amils give hard times during miyaats, what worse can there be. Even Yazeed (Khuda ni Lanaat) gave Imam Hussain A.S. the chance of last Sajada, in which he prayed for all Mumineens like us, and for those that will come till Roze-khayamat, but some Amils refuse burial of deceased Mumineen, doing be-hurmati to the miyaat, on financial issues. Such incidents should be brought to light, to the masses and exposed.

INSHAHALLAH we will overcome!!!!!

[Al Zulfiqar]

EAW,

You have a point when you say that we cannot blame syedna for everything. Its like blaming the Prime Minister of India for all the corruption going on in the country, which is unfair by all means. But the important point to consider at the same time is that Syedna can definitely make a begining to eliminate corruption and injustice prevailing in the community. ...

aarif, i am quite surprised that a rational person like u wud fall for that double speak of eaw and other orthos. when it comes to blaming the syedna, suddenly he is declared a human with normal frailties who has his limitations etc, but otherwise he is akin to Allah, he is a haqiqi kaaba and bolta quran and can see behind huge concrete pillars, see a person there and understand whats in his heart..!!! they term the syedna as ghaib-na-maalik and attribute miracles and superhuman feats to him, which even the prophet was not given by Allah. the pm of india does not make tall claims like the syedna of being all-knowing and all-powerful, with the power to take u to heaven at his command by forgiving all your sins and overriding allah himself!!!

as for your comment about the syedna making a beginning by starting a process of eliminating corruption and injustice, what if all that corruption and injustice itself starts from him and he is himself complicit in it? there are dozens of instances from history mentioned in the archives on this board, where both the ex syedna and the present one have been caught lying, cheating and directly responsible for injustices and corruption as proven in court. the orthos dont want to listen to this and wish to divert the topic by accusing lower officials. this is rather like cutting off the distant twigs and leaves but leaving the tree from which the corruption and rot has spread intact.! that is a devious argument intended to bamboozle the reform movement.

AMZ,

your question and its tone betrays yr hatred for someone who exposes all the rot in the system and lays it directly at the sacred cow's door. it is not important what i am or where i belong. what is important is i expose injustices and corruption esp. when it is conducted in the name of religion by a so-called religious leader who kills wild animals for pleasure and sport, something which is absolutely inhuman and unislamic and still manages to convince his blind followers that he has the power to override Allah?

[Regal]

OK so we all agree on whos to blame so lets talk about correction ...what do u guyz have in mind...making demands from the priests or royal family to change their ways will fall on deaf ears so waht we need is something big.... orthodoxs are also invited to bring any favourable amendments to the table...

[Regal]

i know this is a little off topic in this thread but just take a look at this ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsH-a9UUyl8 hard to believe some ppl are THIS mentally retarded.

[Ijtehadi]

Bro Regal:

Please dont switch the topic. Let's stick to the subject.

Bro AMZ:
Your Quote:
I have been reading thru this Forum for the past 60 days and have visited all the Issues on which the so called reformist (I am not very clear as to why they call themselves as "Reformist" and what "Reform" they want to do) have written pages, I am just summarising these below to have a better remembrence and we get most of it at one place.

1. Kothar not submitting the accounts to public (Money earned and spent)
2. Dai and his family are only making money from the "Bohras" and not giving back anything (Nauzobillah)
3. Difference between Dai and Mazoon only because of huge wealth (Nauzobillah)
4. Concept of "Raza" (As per the so called "reformists" is put in place by the 51st and 52nd Dai)
5. Blind following of the Dai (i.e as per the so called "Reformist" The True bohras do not have any reason behing there Faith)
6. Questions raised by the so called "reformists" on "Nass" , "Imams" and "Zuhur"
7. Cursing Aqa Moula (TUS), {NAUZOBILLAH}, because he met "Narendra Modi", "Bal Thackrey" and leadres who are against Islam
8. Objections on giving donations to the government by "Aqa Moula" during natural calamities
9. Cursing and abusing "Aqa Moula" {Nauzobillah} for his every action
10. Appointing Dai thru election
11. Aqa Moula calling himself "GOD" and "Immortal" {Nauzobillah}

I would soon post my independent views on the above issues, AND ALSO i have following questions to the so called reformists on which they can send a response {As alwayz, no abuses pls}
Unquote

WHERE IS YOUR RESPONSE? We are still waiting for your response.

Please speak. Also give your thought on the ongoing discussion on holding Amils accountable for their misdeeds and atrocities. How, according to you, should we overcome this?

Thanks

[Aarif]

Bro. AZ,

I got your point. I agree with you completely.. I was just trying to handle EAW with the respect he expects from members of this board. Otherwise he will say that people do not want to carry out civilized discussions with him and will run away without answering any questions. If you read my last few replies to him u will realize how I have exposed his psuedo stance on doing anything concrete to stop this corruption and inhumanity in our community. I was just trying to go down to his level and explain it that even from his view point which is completely biased against reforms in the community the ongoing mishaps make no sense whatsoever. I am sure he has got the point that I was trying to make by now.

[Aarif]

Br. Itjehadi

I agree with you. Let's try and expose as many corrupt and inhuman happenings in our community as possible. However, be aware that the orthos are deaf, dumb and blind. Hence, they might not symphatize and dismiss these true incidents as fake stories. I hope some human rights organizations visit this site and do something about it...

[Ijtehadi]

It is obvious how some people are trying to divert the topic to a different level, completely ignoring my point, because there is some constructiveness and results in it. And some peoply obviously do not intend that to happen. To such people I have this to say: "Mudai lakh bura chahe to kia hogo, wahi hoga jo manzoor-e-Khuda hoga".

All some people want to see on this forum is venom being spat on Syedna and Kothar. That is there only purpose and mission of this Forum. They need no progress nor reform - all they want to do is curse others for their shortcomings. Lage Raho Bhai.

Then there are some other kind on this forum, for whom I have this to say: "DAR TE NAHIN MUSALMAAN KISSI SE, WAQT AANE PUR BHAG TE HAIN PEECHE KI GALI SE"

Nara-e-Takbeer: ALLAH-O-AKBAR!!!

[Ijtehadi]

Bro Aarif:

My above comment is not for you. However, if you have any good ideas please do share. We can have Admin come up with a new Topic on this Forum for recording such complaints/misdeeds in our community, by Amils, Ayans and the like.

[Regal]

Although we all have stories and exposing out the corrupt amils is all good and even if it causes them to get shuffled or demoted...wont do anything in the long run. What we need is awareness...more forums like this. etc..more exposure to this cause....so that people learn and accept the change from within....removing the corrupt amils will sure make the ppl happy but it wont motivate them.

[like_minded]

Although we all have stories and exposing out the corrupt amils is all good and even if it causes them to get shuffled or demoted...wont do anything in the long run. What we need is awareness...more forums like this. etc..more exposure to this cause....so that people learn and accept the change from within....removing the corrupt amils will sure make the ppl happy but it wont motivate them.

I fully endorse your views!

Awareness is the key, Unless people don't become aware, there is little hope. The spell created by the clergy keeps them intact in the fantasy world, they are not in touch with reality.. I am sure, once they start getting in touch with reality, become aware, Kothar will have no place to hide.

Zulfi bhai

I fully agree with you! When corruption itself starts from the higher ups like syedna and his crooked family, what hope can anyone have by standing up against lower levels? Because nothing is going to happen! Since many decades, there have been several cases where people have boldly stood up against atrocities perpetrated by concerned aamils, what is the outcome? Nothing!! We had such a case in Chennai in Ramzan, what happened?? Nothing!!!

[mutmaeen]

that ramadan in chennai people were bold for that just one night .after which they caved in-there was no unity and no guts to stand up to the amil steadfastly

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

WHERE IS YOUR RESPONSE? We are still waiting for your response.

Bro Ijtehadi,

Obviously i have my independent views on those 11 topics and i would definately like to post that....i havent done it so far for the following reasons

A. It would again start the confrontation between people on this forum....cross questioning will start and will totally defeat the purpose u have proposed...people will get diverted....i m sure few ppl might think that i m hiding....actually i m not.

B. I am totally with u on your idea that Admin should start a new topic and people might start posting the atrocities they have suffered due to some corrupt aamils, even i would do that....once u have something on board the next step could be to think how u spread that to the mainstream....lets start this with an objective.....everyone pls read my following part carefully

We should be very much object oriented when we do this....be on the issue rather getting diverted......what i mean is that some ppl on this forum immidiately starts putting blames on Syedna and ex Syedna, his life, Dawaat, court cases etc and starts putting long stories on the administration, comparing it with what existed 1400yrs back and bla bla bla.....What i m trying to bring out is it dosent carries or rather it dosent adds any value to the change sorted.....consider this

I am a very hardcore follower in the Mainstream.....i go to viaz....i go to all the social activities....and importantly i am a strong follower of Syedna becaz i beleive that Dawaat has got a long history, Dawaat has seen lots of ups and downs, lot of poverty as well and still it exists and will exist, which to my feeling cannot be wrong....rather the prosperity has increased, the followings have increased and people from the other side of the divide were taken in....and the fact is this beleief is deep rooted in the hearts and minds of a million people....which is obviously not wrong.....My point is dont hurt the faith of ppl by abusing Syedna becaz the moment u do that in the first line itself, it puts the followers off, and no one would read ur second line which might carry some value.....I have been hearing abt the stories of Udaipur, reform etc...from years....Trust me it has taken me 15yrs to just click a link and enter this website (u know what i mean).

All i want to say is.....if u really want to bring a change by nailing down ppl who takes undue advantage and becaz of that the entire community and the Bohras at large suffers and gets a bad name, u have to be inside the mainstream there is no choice.....if u wanna have a chance to be heard....u have to show ur trust in Syedna, Dawaat, and the practices to the people in the Mainstream (Step 1).....otherwise if u start with calling Bohras as Orthos, Deaf, Dump etc....and start writing open letters to Syedna....questioning his every action.....shouting again and again that Bohras do not understand true Islam etc....it is going to work in the other direction and u cannot let ppl focus on the Issues....u will be called Dushman....and ppl will not like to see ur face and take ur name......How u r going to bring any change with the situation like this.

I am seriously impressed with a few intellectual ppl on this forum....The only thing which needs to happen is....change the approach....be more practical and real....tell ppl first what they want to hear and then rest of the stuff (I m sure u understand this)....In short be objective....otherwise this forum is just a gossip and nothing else.

May Allah preserve the prosperity of Dawaat and grant our beloved Moula a healthy and long life..Ameen.
(Trust me this line carries a heavy weightage)

Dear All, pls do not cherry pick things from my above post....rather try to understand the objective in it.