palying with words

[anajmi]

Now you are simply being stupid. You accept that it has a problem almost everywhere else. So the fact that it is working in one place is an exception and not a rule. For something to be declared as a "noble institution" it has to work almost everywhere!! I am sure a few people benefit from gambling too. What would happen if the casinos started calling it qarde hasana??

[mutmaeen]

now u r beiing an idiot-at no point i talked of qaradan hasanah in general i just stuck to the qaradan hasanah of one city-and the mumineen of one entire city benefit from it so it deserves to be called nonble-unless the wahabi definition of nobility means it has to be in multitudes

[SBM]

Mutmaeen
Can you name the JAMAT and name of the AAMIL who according to you are very transparent. I am sure your Jamat is run professionally but DONOT YOU THINK THAT THESE HONEST PEOPLE SHOULD RECEIVE EXPOSURE SO THE OTHERS CAN LEARN.
thanks

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

Questions for Mr. Insaaf

Are there any Qardan - Hasanah schemes run by progressive jamaats??? if by any chance yes than :

What are the terms and conditions???
What is the Max amount available???
How it is secured??? oh sorry.....Allah is the guarantor and he stands for everyone
What if people default in repayments???.....i m sure u must be filing suits against allah as he is the guarantor

Note : monkey's dont jump in

Mr. Insaaf

do u find this question sensible....or u restrict all ur work to newspapers, articles, criticism etc ...but no action.....or u r waiting for a Qardan Hasanah Scheme to be formed by ur jamaats

Mr Insaaf is Dumb founded

[mutmaeen]

oma

can not so on the open forum

[SBM]

Mutmaeen
This is what I find intriguing why not reveal if some one is doing a very good job. As per your own admission, this Jamat which you belong to is very TRANSPARENT and do everything properly, then why hide.
I can understand if one does not reveal the identity if something is being done ILLEGAL.
By not revealing the name of the Jamaat which you say is doing a very good job in dealing with Qard-e-Hasanah scheme, you are putting your own credibility on line.

[anajmi]

omabharti,

You hit the nail on the head. He cannot reveal the name because no such jamaat exists. There are those who want to believe that there is no problem and there are those are a part of the problem. Either way, these people are the reason for the increased corruption and the misuse of the words of the quran.

[Aqa Moula_Zindabad]

All the Jamaat's and Qardan Hasanah socities in India keeps a detailed account of its receipts and expenses, AND every such socities are registered under the Income Tax Act in india, The accounts are audited by an independent chartered accountant and a detailed financials are submitted alongwith the IT return to the relevant authorities in india.

I am by profession a qualified accountant and use to audit many Jammat's and Qardan Hasanah Schemes in Ujjain, Dewas, Indore, Ratlam....Kothar Mubarak has formed Audit committees in all the Jamiyats (India is divided in 16 Jamiyats) My very close relative is the Head of Audit committee and Audits almost 30-40 Jamaat's and Qardan Hasanah Schemes.

[Maqbool]

What mutmaeen says about the qardehasanh is true. My enquiry revels that one qardehasanah scheme is running in Coimbatore for which mutmaeen has given details.

In Tamilnadu only two big cities are there with thick population of Bohras and it is not difficult to find out the city where this kind of schems is running. Dear mutmaeen has not informed about the other qardehasanah running parallel to the one in the same city.

The other scheme is running under jamat and is not giving any accounts. The goons like operators (Office bearers) are handling all affairs and no body has guts to say any thing against them. The loans are used by powerful.

Just to justify the scheme of qardenhasanah, mutmaeen has quoted the scheme which is running in fully democratic way, ignoring, that most of the schemes all over the worlds are not for the masses but for the privileged one.

Dear Anajmi,

Please note that the name what is used qardenhasanah is just a symbolic. Actually it is an interest free loan. To run the scheme it is very essential to have some type of security so that the scheme can run without any problem. I see nothing wrong in taking guarantee or some security against the loan. Bohras are getting without interest lots of money that is very important. If this scheme is running honestly and with the motive to help the entrepreneurs to expand their business there is nothing wrong in it. So please don’t take a literal meaning just to argue you point.

[mutmaeen]

i think anajmi has a prejudice of which he cannot come out.as i said earlier i didnt state anything but truth and though i didnt want to be specific bro maqbool has spilled the beans .bro acc i think u are answered as anajmi cuts a sorry face

bro maqbool to a reply to bro gm i stated that this is probably only one of a kind qaradan hasanah.yes there is another qh in coimbatore which is the run of the mill kind.but the examplary qh i m talking of is functioning with raza of syedna and has amil saheb as its ex officio president

[accountability]

AQZ, you said that you are a member of audit committee. I hope you can shed some light on the following.

Sabeel as collected, 40% goes to center what are the amounts used for.

Wajebat are collected as zakat and fitrah(now they dont put amount against each heading but at the bottom they fill in)how are wajebat used.

Syedna saheb and shahzadas get najwa in crores of rupees and other currencies, are they personal belonging or which account it goes to.

There are many collection throughout the year, what is their use.

I shall be highly obliged if you could tell us.

[anajmi]

Maqbool,

My point is simple, the loan is simply an interest free loan with human quarantors. It is not the qarde hasanah as indicated in the quran. By using this name, the kothar is cheating people into believing that they are getting something that they are not. Now, the problem is that most people who administer this loan, whether corrupt or not, do not know what qarde hasanah actually means. Same is the case with people like mutmaeen. Just because I like "mein kampf" doesn't mean that I can call it the quran!!

[Fatwa Banker]

My point is simple, the loan is simply an interest free loan with human quarantors. It is not the qarde hasanah as indicated in the quran.!!

Can you please explain how Islamic Banking conforms to "qarde hasanah as indicated in the quran" ?

[mutmaeen]

the problem with anajmi is they are allergic to anything non wahabi

[anajmi]

Fart,

It does not and it doesn't claim to be.

mutmaeen,

Everytime you say "wahhabi" it makes your position more and more weak and your posts smell more and more like a fart.

[ghulam muhammed]

What mutmaeen says about the qardehasanh is true. My enquiry revels that one qardehasanah scheme is running in Coimbatore for which mutmaeen has given details.

The city of Coimbatore has majority of sidhpuri bohras like in Chennai but it is commendable as well as surprising that if coimbatore bohras can guarantee such a transparent scheme then why not the chennai bohras ? After the exit of the leader of crooks... Kher bhaisaab from chennai, it shouldnt be difficult for them also to clean up their existing system and see that the needy ones are duly benefited from it.

[mutmaeen]

anajmi

when u resort to lopsidedness with pathetic analogies and when u r found out u dont smell but stink-when a wahabi is shown the mirror he seems horrified-wow-double fart

[anajmi]

So instead of countering the analogies you resort to the most common fart - wahabi wahabi wahabi. Always knew that you will show your emptiness within a few posts. Now you have voluntered yourself to be treated like the fart.

[mumin]

however one describes it ; to help a mumin is a good deed. The question is does the kothar have to act like a bank . The kothar can introduce the one in need to the one who wants to help. This way the one who needs help would know who is the one actually providing the help and the sawab and credit of this good deed should go where it belongs . After all it is the community's funds that are being disbursed ; the shezada or bhaisaheb or local Amil is not giving money from his pocket to do this good deed ,then why should he take the credit ?

[SBM]

Agreed with Mumin's argument except there are people who do not want to advertise their charity, in that case a honest community member can act as a facilitator to help the needy.
BUT THIS TRANSPARENT AND SENSIBLE ADVICE WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED BY KOTHARI GOONS AS THIS WILL BE DONE WITHOUT RAZA AND THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COLLECT THEIR COMMISSION.

[mutmaeen]

the analogies are so absurd they need not be countered-its better to be empty than to be full of shit

[mumin]

How and where would you find honesty? The community looks up to the local Amil to be honest and fair. But it is not so. Being flesh and bones like any mortal ,they are looking after their self interest at every corner under this white uniform. Honesty would be found in the one who wants to share his blessings. Let him then give in the name of Allah with his own hands and claim the satisfaction that his wealth has been used for the purpose intended. He does not have to disclose his identity.

[canadian]

"Palying" or Playing with words?

[anajmi]

mumin,

Anyone who plays with the words of the quran is either dishonest or is ignorant. An ignorant person who persists in playing with the words after being shown the true meaning, can now be considered as dishonest. Every bank in america helps people in one way or another with a profit of their own. But they call a spade a spade. Unlike the kothar, they do not call a loan, a charity, which qarde hasana truly is.

[accountability]

AQz I am still waiting for answer.

[ghulam muhammed]

What the kothar approved site "mumineen.org" states regarding 'qarde hasanah' :-

Al Dai Al Ajal Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) has specified the importance of Qarzan Hasanah in this period in three different ways.

1.Qarzan Hasanah, as in respect to Mumins faith.
2.Qarzan Hasanah, as a law and ordinance.
3.Qarzan Hasanah, as an act, deed and duty.

The DAI OF RASULALLAH (S.A) ascertained Mumineen through his manifests, that Qarzan Hasanah is not just a deed or an act of formality, but it is a command of Allah. The term Qarzan Hasanah, in Quran has been used in three different ways. Informative – Commanding and as an Oath. Where the commanding term has been used, Maulana Mohammed Burhanuddin (TUS) states ” Allah has associated the law of Qarzan Hasanah with the command of Zakat. As the command of Zakat implies on the category of people having wealth (Saheb ul Maal) in the same way the command of Qarzan Hasanah, in the same way the command of Qarzan Hasanah implies on the same category

Infact it is impossible to count that how much Huzurala (TUS) gives as Qarzan Hasanah. And it is the mere ahsaan of Maulana (TUS) that he gives us the sharaf of accompanying in this kind deed. Maulana states:
” Qarzan Hasanah aapo, ehma ghani barakat che, Mumin tamara si le ehno ahsaan !”

http://www.mumineen.org/archive/deen/sharia/zakat/

[anajmi]

Qarde Hasana in the quran

2:245 Man tha allathee yuqridu Allaha qardan hasanan fayudaAAifahu lahu adAAafan katheeratan waAllahu yaqbidu wayabsutu wailayhi turjaAAoona
002.245
YUSUFALI: Who is he that will loan to Allah a beautiful loan, which Allah will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is Allah that giveth (you) Want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.
PICKTHAL: Who is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly loan, so that He may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. Unto Him ye will return.
SHAKIR: Who is it that will offer of Allah a goodly gift, so He will multiply it to him manifold, and Allah straitens and amplifies, and you shall be returned to Him.

5:12 Walaqad akhatha Allahu meethaqa banee israeela wabaAAathna minhumu ithnay AAashara naqeeban waqala Allahu innee maAAakum lain aqamtumu alssalata waataytumu alzzakata waamantum birusulee waAAazzartumoohum waaqradtumu Allaha qardan hasanan laokaffiranna AAankum sayyiatikum walaodkhilannakum jannatin tajree min tahtiha alanharu faman kafara baAAda thalika minkum faqad dalla sawaa alssabeeli
005.012
YUSUFALI: Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."
PICKTHAL: Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.
SHAKIR: And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My messengers and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.


57:11 Man tha allathee yuqridu Allaha qardan hasanan fayudaAAifahu lahu walahu ajrun kareemun
057.011
YUSUFALI: Who is he that will Loan to Allah a beautiful loan? for (Allah) will increase it manifold to his credit, and he will have (besides) a liberal Reward.
PICKTHAL: Who is he that will lend unto Allah a goodly loan[/], that He may double it for him and his may be a rich reward?
SHAKIR: Who is there that will offer to Allah a good gift so He will double it for him, and he shall have an excellent reward.


57:18 Inna almussaddiqeena waalmussaddiqati waaqradoo Allaha qardan hasanan yudaAAafu lahum walahum ajrun kareemun
057.018
YUSUFALI: For those who give in Charity, men and women, and loan to Allah a Beautiful Loan, it shall be increased manifold (to their credit), and they shall have (besides) a liberal reward.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who give alms, both men and women, and lend unto Allah a goodly loan, it will be doubled for them, and theirs will be a rich reward.
SHAKIR: Surely (as for) the charitable men and the charitable women and (those who) set apart for Allah a goodly portion, it shall be doubled for them and they shall have a noble reward.

64:17 In tuqridoo Allaha qardan hasanan yudaAAifhu lakum wayaghfir lakum waAllahu shakoorun haleemun
064.017
YUSUFALI: If ye loan to Allah, a beautiful loan, He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness: for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service), Most Forbearing,-
PICKTHAL: If ye lend unto Allah a goodly loan, He will double it for you and will forgive you, for Allah is Responsive, Clement,
SHAKIR: If you set apart for Allah a goodly portion[b], He will double it for you and forgive you; and Allah is the Multiplier (of rewards), Forbearing,

There is one more verse - 73:20

[mumin]

Yes, either way one puts it to help a brother is a good deed and I am all for it. The question is the purpose of this qarze hasanah. In my small jamat people are asking for qarze hasanah so they can perform haj. Now, would that be fair; when the quran clearly states "Go for haj if Allah has given you the means" not by asking for a handout. Mumineen are asking for qarze hasanah so they can go to bombay for ziarat of the previous Dai. A person with a Ford escort may be perfectly happy in his world and at the same token a person with a mercedes is happy in his own . Where in the quran does it state that a person with the mercedes should give qarze hasanah to a person with a Ford . Who will be the judge ? .That is why I say, leave it to the person giving and the person recieving. There is no need for third party involvement.

[SBM]

^
From Malumaat Message Board:

Dear Friends
We have a very needy person application who is a retired man about 70 years old
from Kolkata. He has luckily been selected to go for Haj Pilgirmage this year
with raza and doa mubarak of Aqa Moula (TUS). He has put all his savings and
also taken a lot of karz on his head to go for this pilgrimage.
He is very very needy. Anybody keen to help please let us know. We will give
complete details of him.
Thanks and Doa Iltimas.
Husain

[ghulam muhammed]

From Malumaat Message Board:

Dear Friends
We have a very needy person application who is a retired man about 70 years old
from Kolkata. He has luckily been selected to go for Haj Pilgirmage this year
with raza and doa mubarak of Aqa Moula (TUS). He has put all his savings and
also taken a lot of karz on his head to go for this pilgrimage.
He is very very needy. Anybody keen to help please let us know. We will give
complete details of him.
Thanks

It is surprising that maalumat.com has not been taken to task by kothar for flashing the above message because according to kothar, just a mere visit to Saifee Mahal is as good as going for Hajj because Burhanudin saab is 'Haqiqi kaaba' or maybe the donations will be pocketed by kothar and the Kolkata man will be given a trip to saifee mahal and convinced that he has performed Hajj.