'no excuses, no ifs and no buts'

[questions]

Here is the link to the 'suggested' actions that dawoodi bohras are to do for the TUS of the syedna.

The phrase 'no excuses, no ifs and no buts' would be funny, if only people can see it for what it is in reality - a veiled threat.

Also notice the new Tasbeehs for the last two Syednas - Ya Taher and Ya Muhammad ! What will they think of next? A special namaz to bring the 51st syedna back from the dead ?!


http://www.torontojamat.com/Default.asp ... mentid=770

[Human]

Very good find there 'questions'. Just goes to prove how they make their own rules as they go. Incase that page gets removed from the website, I've saved that page too.

[anajmi]

This freaking lisaane dawat kills me. Since I have been out of this crap for so long, I have no idea what Ayyamut-ta'abuddat is or what muvazebat is or what a "bund" is. And why the heck do the abde morons have to dedicate everything to the Syedna? If they give everything to the Syedna, they will be kicked out of heaven as they won't have anything left for themselves!! The Syedna even wants your Qurbani. This is one selfish leader.

[anajmi]

Aw, c'mon Admin!!

[Smart]

This lisane daawat is a hybrid language, deliberately designed to keep the orthies in ignorance and impress them by hi falutin jargon. It applies the first law of the priestly class everywhere - "If you can't convince, CONFUSE".

It is to prevent people from asking too many questions.

[Human]

^
I second Smart's view. On top of confusing people they use the other priestly strategy to scare people. 'Show them the fear of the Almighty, tell them what will happen if they even had the slightest doubt in what we say.'

[questions]

Human: Thanks for saving that page.

Anajmi: Ayyammut tabuddat are special days starting from Eid Milad un Nabi to Imam uz Zaman salgirah and Syedna's salgirah. I am sure its a recent innovation with no religious significance. Muvazebat probably means with sincerity; and bund or bandh means verse / stanza in Urdu.

[anajmi]

questions,

Thanks for that information. I am sure it is a recent innovation.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Human: Thanks for saving that page.

Anajmi: Ayyammut tabuddat are special days starting from Eid Milad un Nabi to Imam uz Zaman salgirah and Syedna's salgirah. I am sure its a recent innovation with no religious significance. Muvazebat probably means with sincerity; and bund or bandh means verse / stanza in Urdu.

there is nothing special about it, except in the minds of the nefarious syedna's family which is slyly foisting such crap on the abdes who will swalllow any garbage, if it is couched in a language they cannot understand and purports to come from their 'divine' leader.

ayyam means days and taa'buddat comes from ibaadat or worship. together meaning days of worship. ostensibly and outwardly an act of worship to allah, it cleverly links the syedna's salgirah to the prophet, as if he is a direct descendant or appointed by him! making the entire community do tasbeeh's for long life of syedna is an act of kufr, as only allah decides who lives and whose time is up.

with bohras its all outward show and hypocrisy of being muslims. in reality they are some strange breed of kafirs who are using islam to justify themselves. and the biggest culprit is of course the syedna for instituting such unislamic changes for personal aggrandisement and enrichment and his parasitic family for conjuring up such sinister strategies.

[Biradar]

These instructions are for the 40 days between the birth of the prophet to the birth of the sayedna. I do not think this is all bad. It simply encourages people to pray regularly, attend Friday prayers, recite the Quran daily, recite certain du'as, etc. In that sense we should not think of it as innovation. It just uses an occasion to encourage people to be more regular in observing.

However, they have cleverly inserted doing tasbih of the sayedna and his father's name in the mix. Also, all this "attend or else" and filling out forms is meant to force people into a narrow mould and control their lives.

As far as language is concerned, I do not see why lian-e-dawaat is bad. It serves two purposes: teaches people to read Arabic script and encourages folks, specially in the west, to learn Gujrati and some arabic words. At the end of the day, it is just a language. No need to see evil plots in everything.

[anajmi]

Biradar,

Encouraging people to pray in those particular days attaches a significance to the birth of the Syedna along with the birth of the prophet which has no basis in religion or "Fatimid Traditions". Encouraging people to pray is good, but it is not to be done for any purpose other than to worship Allah. If those 40 days are more important than the other days because of the birth of Syedna, then you are committing shirk.

It just uses an occasion to encourage people to be more regular in observing.

Using occasions like these gives us what we have as the current bohra clergy.

teaches people to read Arabic script and encourages folks

No it does not. It infact confuses people. The quran and other books are used to teach people how to read Arabic and that is what they should stick to.

Besides, if you are not going to allow people to understand the quran, what is the point in the teaching them arabic words?

[Biradar]

Biradar,

Encouraging people to pray in those particular days attaches a significance to the birth of the Syedna along with the birth of the prophet which has no basis in religion or "Fatimid Traditions". Encouraging people to pray is good, but it is not to be done for any purpose other than to worship Allah. If those 40 days are more important than the other days because of the birth of Syedna, then you are committing shirk.

Of course, the aim is to get people to pray regularly. This is just a way of encouraging them to do so. Another thing is that many of the du'as are complex and most people would not recite them otherwise. Again, I think we loose credibility if we see evil plots in everything.

No it does not. It infact confuses people. The quran and other books are used to teach people how to read Arabic and that is what they should stick to.

Who gives you the authority to tell what "they" should stick to? Look at Farsi or Urdu. They are both written in forms of Arabic script. Writing gujrathi using Arabic script is not an innovation of the present sayedna or his father. The tradition has started with S Abdeali Saif al-din. Again, it is only a language. Our generation finds it confusing because we did not grow up with it. However, many younger folks read and understand it fluently.

Besides, if you are not going to allow people to understand the quran, what is the point in the teaching them arabic words?

People have easy access to numerous translations of the Quran. Many bohras I know read Yusuf-Ali regularly, in fact bring it to the Quran recitation sessions in the masjid or markaz. This may be officially discouraged, but again, one can take the initiative to learn oneself.

[anajmi]

Of course, the aim is to get people to pray regularly. This is just a way of encouraging them to do so.

I disagree. The aim is to get people to understand the higher importance of Syedna than the regular daily prayers. This is a way to encourage them to believe in the Syedna more than in the prayers. We don't need to see evil plots in everything. Just in certain things which have something to do with the Syedna glorifying himself.

Who gives you the authority to tell what "they" should stick to?

No one. That is just my opinion. That is what they should stick to. You are comparing apples to oranges. Using Arabic to write Urdu or Farsi has nothing to do with lisaane dawat. Urdu has borrowed a lot of words from Arabic too, but there are no equivalents of those words in Urdu. In lisaane dawat there is a laboured attempt to change simple words which already exist to convey the same meaning.

many younger folks read and understand it fluently.

Not sure which young folks you are referring to, but either I am getting too old or I haven't come across any. Not a single young folk was able to provide the meanings I asked for, when they are available all over this board to throw lanaats.

People have easy access to numerous translations of the Quran. Many bohras I know read Yusuf-Ali regularly, in fact bring it to the Quran recitation sessions in the masjid or markaz. This may be officially discouraged, but again, one can take the initiative to learn oneself.

I know and that is not the point I was trying to make. I am an example of bohras who have done that.

[Al Zulfiqar]

biradar,

encouraging people to pray or recite prayers is fine by using some occasion as an excuse. then why not between the 2 eids of fitr and adha?

getting paranoid and seeing evil conspiracies in everything is bad, but when you yrself acknowledge the sinister ploy of slyly inserting tasbeehs for the 2 syednas, past and present, then how would you classify it?

lisane dawat is nothing but a laughable hotch-potch of several langauges like gujrati, hindi, marathi, urdu, arabic and persian. bohras staying in M.P, rajasthan and certain parts of gujrat do use mixtures of gujrati, hindi, urdu and kathiyawadi etc, which happens when your language gets influenced by the local dialects. this has always existed and will happen wherever you live. but this newfangled lingo with deliberate insertion of arabic words taken out of context and foisted on an unsuspecting and ignorant community is certainly a suspicious and sinister innovation, designed to mislead and impress bohras for whom arabic is an alien language. if this lisane dawat crap was simultaneously associated with a proper arabic education for the community, then fine. where it becomes suspect is when they make every attempt to in fact hold back such education and knowledge from the community at large by declaring that syedna is natiq-e-quran and it is beyond us to understand our own holy scriptures. their usage of arabic words out of context would be immediately caught and condemned by those who would see through it. it suits their purpose to have ignorant people in this context, thus leading to submission and blind obedience.

those of us who have been around for more than 5-6 decades and have seen the kothar's innumerable insidious and nefarious plans in action, are more than justified when we cannot trust them. lying, cheating, deception and loot are all part of their agenda in enriching themselves, and religion is but a convenient handle for such crooks. if they were so enamoured to make us all better muslims, then they should first start with themselves.

[Humsafar]

Biradar, I agree that we should not see evil plot in everything in what the Kothar does - but given their track record it is hard not to. I think anajmi, zulfiqar and others are correct in their assessment of tabudaat and lissan-e-dawaat. Tabudaat is nothing but a vehicle for dai's glorification, if people because of this start praying regularly then it is a positive outcome and not the intention of the exercise. Linking Dai's birthday with that of the prophet and the imam and declaring the period with some fancy name does not look like an innocent attempt at encouraging prayers. To me it looks like a clever, back-door attempt to give legitimacy to raising the status of the dai to that of the prophet.

The intention behind Lissan-e-dawat and now the increasing use of Arabic is not encourage people to learn Arabic or Gujarati - that may well be the positive side-effect. It is in the interest of the priestly class to make things more complex and esoteric for common people to understand. The way the Kothar has forged an artificial outward identity (kaumi libas) they are doing the same with the language. This is the Kothar's ongoing attempt at creating a Borha brand for Bohra Inc. - everybody looks the same, thinks the same, talks the same. One could argue that there is nothing wrong with it, but we all know that all attempts at uniformity and structured arrangements are designed to control and manipulate people.

[Biradar]

This is the Kothar's ongoing attempt at creating a Borha brand for Bohra Inc. - everybody looks the same, thinks the same, talks the same. One could argue that there is nothing wrong with it, but we all know that all attempts at uniformity and structured arrangements are designed to control and manipulate people.

Yes, I agree that the attempt is to create uniformity, and yes, I do not agree with that. Of course, the goal of the kotharis is to gain greater control over the community and give even less freedom to common bohras.

However, I want us to be balanced. Let me give an example: my parents are orthodox bohras and follow Islam scrupulously. When I ask them about tabuddat, they tell me that it just brings people together and encourages them to read the Quran. In fact, my dad enjoys the cricket competition and even my mom, generally least interested in sports, got excited by the final two years ago. They do not see any nefarious plots in it and certainly do not see it as a way to just glorify the da'i. Yes, that is a part of the deal, and probably planned to be that, but I think it does have positive effects. In fact, when I was still in India, I noticed that the attendance for morning prayers in the masjid was high following Ramazan or Rajab. Why? Because many people got into the habit and kept doing it. Of course, the attendance slowly petered, but after all we are just humans.

Another example: food is served after Friday prayers in many cities in India. The result: attendance has shot through the roof. Now one may see this and say that Bohras are gluttons. However, I think that Bohras are also humans and need some inducement to follow the sharia. Many of our awlias have used various inducements to encourage people to practice. This is not a ploy of the sayedna or his father.

Now, I do not want to give the impression that I support this ridiculous 40 days of celebration. I am simply pointing out that most of the things in the list are things which obsevant bohras should do anyway. The issue of glorification of the sayedna is another matter. Praying namaaz regularly or reciting the Quran is has nothing to do with it.

As for lisan-e-dawaat. I think this is not a bad thing per-se. There is no mumbo-jumo involved. The language is still mainly gujrathi and with some effort one can understand it quite easily. Also, I want to ask: what language should they choose instead? Very few people know how to read gujrathi script anymore, specially in the west. English is not really an option as much of our literature is in gujrathi. So what are the other options? Do you think it is realistic for everyone to learn Arabic? Its just one more language.

Also, all of our rituals and du'a and when to say them and for what is very well documented in numerous books, all commonly available. For example, the sayedna's late wife has written a very comprehensive book which is available in many places. So I do not think they are trying to hide anything.

Yes, there is unbelievable greed for money and worldly good in the present administration. Yes, there is a lot of effort to impose on people. However, there are many positive aspects too. We should not discount that.

[Al Zulfiqar]

They do not see any nefarious plots in it and certainly do not see it as a way to just glorify the da'i. Yes, that is a part of the deal, and probably planned to be that, but I think it does have positive effects.

Another example: food is served after Friday prayers in many cities in India. The result: attendance has shot through the roof. Now one may see this and say that Bohras are gluttons. However, I think that Bohras are also humans and need some inducement to follow the sharia. Many of our awlias have used various inducements to encourage people to practice. This is not a ploy of the sayedna or his father.

As for lisan-e-dawaat. I think this is not a bad thing per-se. There is no mumbo-jumo involved. The language is still mainly gujrathi and with some effort one can understand it quite easily. Also, I want to ask: what language should they choose instead? Very few people know how to read gujrathi script anymore, specially in the west. English is not really an option as much of our literature is in gujrathi. So what are the other options? Do you think it is realistic for everyone to learn Arabic? Its just one more language.

So I do not think they are trying to hide anything.

.

biradar,

without in anyway disrespecting your parents at all, unfortunately majority of our bohras do not see anything wrong in whatever is going on in the name of our religion. they fail to see the underlying sinister machinations of the wily kothar. counting on this, the kothar has slowly but surely taken us far away from the deen we used to practice say 60-70 years ago. our practices during moharram, ramzan, the taxes they are collecting and innovating as if they are written in law, the 2 rakats to syedna, the matam after every farz namaz, the business of talaqqi, najwa, blah blah and blah, all cunningly introduced in the name of religion and made to appear as divine law.

food was a strategy introduced by our previous dais, not to induce bohras to pray and be devout, but to attract the poor bheels and other pagan practising tribals into our masjids and convert them. btw, no one here mentioned food as part of this discussion, so dont know where that came from?

re: lisane dawat and gujrati being alien to bohras in the west, is that a bigger majority compared to the bohras who do not understand arabic? what i sense here is not an attempt on your part to refuse to see the evil of our wily clergy, but simple inexperience. for those of us who have seen their deceit and tyranny first hand over several decades, we know better than to trust these rascals. let me repeat once again, let them first become better muslims themselves by giving up the murder of innocent animals on lavish shikar trips, let them stop extorting money from poor widows and orphans, let them give back all the community's properties that the ex-syedna seized by force, let them be transparent in their accounts and let them stop interfering in our personal and social lives.

let the dai do what he is supposed to do, set a good example by living a simple and austere life like ali, guide us purely in religion and carry out his sacred duty of conversion of non-believers into our faith. then and only then can he lecture us on being good bohras or muslims.

[Biradar]

what i sense here is not an attempt on your part to refuse to see the evil of our wily clergy, but simple inexperience. for those of us who have seen their deceit and tyranny first hand over several decades, we know better than to trust these rascals.

I would not make such a statement about someone I do not know. How do you know what experience I have? Internet forums hide a person's identity. Sadly, my family has periodically been the victim of atrocities from the kothar and the da'i's henchmen. Some of my family members have been excommunicated and many have been beaten up. So I know what the kothar is capable of.

All I am saying is: lets not be in a hurry to see "deceit and tyranny" in everything the da'i or the kothar does. It makes our case less credible and feeds ammunition to those who claim the progressives "simply" hate the da'i. We have to make a distinction between various actions: some we must condemn, some we should just let be. I think the tabudaat probably has much to condemn in it. However, some of its outcome may be good and we should not condemn everything uniformly.

[Human]

These instructions are for the 40 days between the birth of the prophet to the birth of the sayedna.

I just noticed the funny co-incedence about 40 days mentioned above by Biradar and the 40 days of lent for Christians fall precisely on the same time; atleast for this year!

[broadminded]

Folks here's the breakdown of the word "Tabudaat"

Ta=Tahir
Bu=Burhan
Daat= abbreviation of Ibaadat
meaning: Ibadaat of Tahir & Burhan..Oh Lord have mercy!!!shame shame

[Al Zulfiqar]

All I am saying is: lets not be in a hurry to see "deceit and tyranny" in everything the da'i or the kothar does. It makes our case less credible and feeds ammunition to those who claim the progressives "simply" hate the da'i. We have to make a distinction between various actions: some we must condemn, some we should just let be. I think the tabudaat probably has much to condemn in it. However, some of its outcome may be good and we should not condemn everything uniformly.

biradar, i am sorry i am having to disagree with you again. each and every action of the kothar, minor or major, is designed with only one thing in mind. how to tighten their grip and increase their control of the community and milk it for all its worth. that is the larger picture and all these little pieces fit in towards that end. religion is only a convenient handle and expedient to their evil aims.

if we have to look for some good outcomes emanating from some stray actions of crooks, then we might as well support the goondagiri of dawood ibrahim and his type, who i am told helps many poor memon families and fights against hindu extremists.

[like_minded]

I fully agree with bro zulfikar.