Just a few simple questions to abde syedna fanatics...

[Smart]

^
Then, what have you been doing till now? Is it now that you have been proved to be wrong and are frustrated that you are thinking of "better things to do"?

Sour grapes? Huh!

[Al Zulfiqar]

some more simple questions...

31. in the last 80 odd years of the reformist movement, there is not even one recorded instance of any reformist/s having physically attacked the syedna or any member of his family, whereas there are hundreds of well-documented events wherein the goons under various names like shabab or jamaat committee or ordinary bohras in a mob have attacked reformists and their sympathisers with the blessings and in full view of the syedna and his family members, have killed the ustads who taught the ex syedna, have made murderous assaults upon people of udaipur, have beaten up any dissenting bohras all over the world, have gone on a rampage against mumbai samachar newspaper, have attacked and threatened several urdu and other newspapers in various parts of india, have tried several times to kill asgharali engineer, have dug up graves and thrown out dead bodies, come to this forum and threatened reformists and tried to hack in here or have it closed down.

inspite of this the syedna moves around surrounded by security in the form of state police and bohra scouts and goondas from shabab and utters laanats either directly or through his sons and amils. why??

32. why are false miracles being circulated all over the internet in a deliberate show of godliness? what are they trying to prove? why in none of them proper references are given by way of email, tel nos or addresses of the people who are making such claims? have any of those so-called miracles been scientifically checked and substantiated, if not, why not? would the kothar welcome any independent verification of these claims?

33. why does the syedna continue staying in a palace which formerly belonged to adamjee peerbhoy while the ex syedna and the present one make the community utter laanats on peerbhoy and his family?

34. on which land is the saifee hospital built? who was its owner before and how did the syedna acquire it?

more questions later...

[Al Zulfiqar]

all my questions aimed towards the fanatic abde syedna khaal donors have gone unanswered. their silence is eloquent..

[master.b00t]

aa syedna e to saali Ghar Ghatta j kari muki chhe jane kem "Baapuji No Bagicho" hoy
em badhi baju islam ne avgani ne potani ghar ghatta j karel chhe, aa andar khane thi sarmukhtyar shahi ane gunda-raj batawe chhe, pistol dabawi ne chup karwa nu kaam konu chhe bhai ? goonda loko nu aa ek moto kalakaar chhe jene badhaj roll karta aawde chhe, jents to haji pan vicharwa ne taiyaar thay jay pan aa bairao koi vichar magaj thi chaltaj nathi ane aa bhavwahi shailly ma bayan kari ne nabla loko imotional loko ane bairao ne aanti ma lai le chhe, me to evbu joyu chhe ke haji to " Mumineen ni jamaat" etluj bolya hoy tyan ketla badha logo rova besi jay chhe, have aama kai rova jevu tamne lage chhe ke aa words thi koi manas rova besi jaay pan aa badhi imotional blackmailing-chheterpindi, ane potane mota ganavi ne loko na man uppar ek ghajab ni impression ubhi kari ne loko ne ema gulaam rakhwa. " Me kaun chhu ? me mohammad mustufa no dai , mohamaad burhanuddin bin taher saiffuddin" em kari ne bichhara sadharan logo ne waare waare impression aapine ne em kehwanu ke bhai bhuli na jajo atyare tamare same mohammad mustufa na dai betha chhe bhai aa koi jevi tevbi waat nathi me mohammad burhanuddin tamara same chhu. Koi mahaan manas kyarey loko paase em nathi kehravto ke dekho me itno mahaan manus tamara same chhu !!! deedar vakhte me logo na chehra mark karel chhe ke loko maulla maulla maulla em kari ne jane ek aantrik behoshi man ni behoshi ma aawi jay chhe je ek tandra ek aadyatmik meaning ma darkness behoshi chhe ane maula aavu badhu kari ne loko kaayam behosh rahe evuj kare chhe je dharm ni bilkool opposite ni side chhe sacha dharm thi manas behosh nathi thato pan jaage chhe, pan aa mass hipnotizm ni asar niche manas bilkool behosh thay jaay chhe manas ne jagadwano chhe ke pachhi suwaravi deva no chhe ?

[Omega]

@ Al Zulfiqar,

Salaam

Guy_sam has replied to almost all of your questions. if you are not satisfied with his answers kindly discuss on a single issue at a time this will help us not to deviate from the topic. some of your concerns can be genuine enough, lets see if we can discuss things in a more amicable environment without name calling ofcourse

[Human]

^
Omega, if you deem guy_sam's answers as good then you should not bother Al Zulfiqar to get into the topic again. guy_sam's answers were baseless and just for the sake of arguing. I would term that as senseless and pointless debating. If you like his answers and will be giving similar answers then there's no point in any discussion.

Smart take note, a new wave of 'hatum' likes is here

[Omega]

Brother Human,

Salaam,

its very well your wish to discuss things of your liking. i am no one to force things on you. just a humble request dont lower the standard of debates by futile name callings as its not going to help your cause if you have any.

we can have our difference of opinion, no problem.

[Human]

Omega,

Okay, you sound humble. I'm pretty sure Al Zulfiqar will pick a point to discuss tomorrow. In the meantime, do you mind if I asked a question about this. It might relate to one of Al Zulfiqar's questions.

It is regarding ziyafat of moula. Why has giving a ziyafat become a millionaire's affair? Why is it open only to millionaire's club? Why doesn't moula give this chance to a poor or a middle class family? It involves lakhs and lakhs of rupees to give a ziyafat. In some cases, there is also bidding for ziyafat. The highest bidder gets to give ziyafat. Why?

[Omega]

Brother Human,

Salaam,

ok then you suggest a criterion on how to select people who wants to give Ziyafat. now take in count that though the Ziayafat amount some times reaches millions then also people Queue for the same. now how will things be practically manged if money is not bought as a criteria to judge things.

and as in the past people used to sacrifice their live stock as it was their capital so in modern times Money is what you sacrifice. and you very well might know that even ijtemai or group ziyafats are organised where every one gets a chance to do Qadambosi for just a token amount as Hub for Ziyafat. So you see every one gets a chance

[Al Zulfiqar]

@ Al Zulfiqar,

Salaam

Guy_sam has replied to almost all of your questions. if you are not satisfied with his answers kindly discuss on a single issue at a time this will help us not to deviate from the topic. some of your concerns can be genuine enough, lets see if we can discuss things in a more amicable environment without name calling ofcourse

omega,

welcome to the forum. i have been reading your few brief answers on this site. what they show is that you are someone who sees no problems at all with all the unislamic and unethical nonsense going on in our community, which not only is not part of islam but also not part of our bohra deen and totally contradictory to what was being practised by the previous 50 dais. to understand all this you need to first study our religion and history in detail. please read the first thread on the bohras and reform forum which is a sticky, and then try to read as much material in the archives of this forum as you can over the next few days.

simply coming here and trying to be disingenous by being all smooth and suave, appeasing and humble, seems to appear as if you are attempting to sell snake oil. we have seen all types of fanatics come and go on this forum. some take the gaali galoch approach, some pretend ignorance, some try only to heckle and ridicule, and some try to threaten. so far no one, not a single fanatic bohra has appeared here who has any in-depth knowledge or able to reasonably explain based on islam and our deen that whatever crap is going on is fully in consonance with islam and our deen.

If you are going to adopt this wily baniya approach, ‘su thayu bhai, ema kai moti vaat nathi, e to chala karey’ , without having anything substantial to say based on facts and scriptures from islam and our deen and think that guy sam’s answers make even 1% sense, then as smart says, you are wasting our time and yours.

We have had enough of such fools and ignorant, uncivilsed fanatics like sam and others, and I am tired of undertaking pointless debates with intellectual featherweights. If you cannot even understand the topic behind all my questions, then there is nothing further left to discuss. .

[Omega]

Brother Al Zulfiqaar,

in my few replies i have not mentioned at once that we are living in a perfect world.

right now have to leave. but Inshallah will get back to you tomorrow or will try to reply in the evening. between i will not be in a position to quote from Al Quran or any of the holy books, so if u deem it worth to talk its your wish or as you have already labeled me and my intellect i dont have anything much to talk.

Fee Amanillah

[SBM]

Omega
Sorry to butt in, I know you wanted AZ to ask the questions? I have posted a 5 questions to Guy as well HN and they disappeared
You are right, we should only ask one question at a time since too many questions to them would confuse their confused brain
SO HERE I GO
Can you justify Wadhawo which is nothing more than an Aarti of Ganpati as an Islamic tradition. I checked with my grand parents who told me that this was not done 50-60 years back.
After you answer this one then I will post next question.
Thanks

[master.b00t]

Bhai ali zulfikaar bhai , aap ke 30 question he agar me iska jawab de ne ki koshish karu to , pehle to aap ko isake sahi jawab nahi milege , doosara mera ye jazwab he ki ye jo maula baula he ye inke laayak he hi nahi , ye one man show he , aur paise ka khel he , is khel me original kuchh bhi nahi he , agar apana fayda ho raha ho to apane fayde ke hisaab se niti-niyam ban jayenge " Aur ye maula baula jo kuchh bhi he sab paise ke ,naam ke ,izzat ke ghulaam he , yash ,pad ,pratishtha ka yeh sab khel he ye deen been kuchh nahi bhai ye "DDDDDUUUUUUUUNNNNNIIIIIIIYYYYYYAAAAA" he aur ye log sabhi prakaar ke dunyavi sukh jaise bhi mile Shaam,daam ,dand ,bhed sabhi cheejo ka prayog ye inko praapt karne ke liye karenge is liye aap 30 question ka appropriate answer khoj ne ki raah mat dekhna , aako barso chale jayednge aise answer nahi milenge " 100 baat ki 1 baat samaj lo ye jo kuchh bhi ho raha he wo 'Deen' nahi he ...Ye "Maulana Ali" nahi he aise farishta bahot sadagi me jeete he aur ye log jo hum khel dekh hi rahe he , paise ke peechhe paagal he ,paise banane ke liye kitni tarkiben ki he " Sabhi town city me properties unke naam ki , sabhi jagah (like galiya cott, buranpur even chhoti jagah ki properti unke under me , sabhi jagao ke galle, samuh shaadi, baccho ke sehra ki kamai, sila fitra,zakaat ,salaam, zyafat ,( zakaat to khass malai he usme jo milta he aisa doosare me nahi milta),special babato ke liye units jaise ke saiffi hospital ke units, kadamboshi ke units ,najwa salaam, sabil ( aamil no pagaar pan loko upparaj , "lagan no bahaar badhoj kanya ni kede")niyaaz mate na faala,local aamil no sallam , waare waare lewata misaak no sallam (masjeed ma)......... tame 30 sawaal no jawab medavawa ni try na karo teno maatra ek j jawaab chhe ke aa badha "khotada" self honest nathi ane aa koi "Deen" nathi maatr LAABH LEVA MATE AA DEEN CHHE EVU LOKO TARAF TEMNE CHHETARWA MATE BATAWAWA MA AAWE CHHE. andar to irrado kai judoj chhe.

['sauga dude]

Assalam aleykum Al-Zulfikar bhai,

You are a very intelligent person and have much knowledge about islam as well as about our Dawoodi Bohra culture and traditions.

But I think you are wrong in the approach that you are taking with Omega and with other abdes who come on this site. Omega seems to be humble and is making an effort to engage in a discussion. If you just dismiss him as "being all smooth and suave, appeasing and humble, seems to appear as if you are attempting to sell snake oil" and a "featherweight intellectual", that is wrong.

You cannot clap with one hand. You need another person to engage in discussions. That is the only way in which the reform discussions and ideas can be brought out into the open. An opportunity is being given to you and other "heavyweight intellectuals" to educate myself, Omega, Guy Sam and others. I would urge you to take that opportunity instead of ridiculing your opponent.

You say that you have seen many abdes come and go. The fact that the abdes come on this website, is a victory. The fact that they go, is a loss.

[master.b00t]

agar maula ko follow karne walo ke pass se jawab ki expect he to ye log ek bhi sawaal ke sahi jawaab( sahi to thik lekin sirf " jawaab bhi milega ya nahi iski mujhe suspicious he mujhe lagta he jawab nahi milega) nahi milenge kyonki aapke ke sawaal mene pure padhe aur lagta he ki aap bin-harif jeet jayenge ye sawaal kafi strong he aur followers ke pass ise ignore karke chale jane ke siva aur koi chara nahi he.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Assalam aleykum Al-Zulfikar bhai,

You are a very intelligent person and have much knowledge about islam as well as about our Dawoodi Bohra culture and traditions.

But I think you are wrong in the approach that you are taking with Omega and with other abdes who come on this site. Omega seems to be humble and is making an effort to engage in a discussion. If you just dismiss him as "being all smooth and suave, appeasing and humble, seems to appear as if you are attempting to sell snake oil" and a "featherweight intellectual", that is wrong.

You cannot clap with one hand. You need another person to engage in discussions. That is the only way in which the reform discussions and ideas can be brought out into the open. An opportunity is being given to you and other "heavyweight intellectuals" to educate myself, Omega, Guy Sam and others. I would urge you to take that opportunity instead of ridiculing your opponent.

You say that you have seen many abdes come and go. The fact that the abdes come on this website, is a victory. The fact that they go, is a loss.

suaga dude,

i like your reply, esp. the last sentence. the reason i gave that reply to omega was because he started by saying that guy sam has already replied to my list of questions, as if the matter is now over. that is why my comment: that if those replies of sam make sense to him and he considers them satisfactory, then that displays his level of intelligence. it was a perfectly logical response. all bohras are more than welcome here, but why has admin posted a thread right at the top of the bohras and reform forum? so that people who do not have the knowledge of the issues they wish to debate about, should read up first and then come here and engage in constructive debate.

the problem with abdes is they think that they know everything, as dished out to them by our cunning clergy, and act as if that makes them supreme authorities on islam and religion. it is they who come here with an attitude of arrogance, not myself. there is tons of material on the archives here which they can read and learn from, but they are too lazy, prejudiced and arrogant to make the effort.

['sauga dude]

Assalam aleykum,

the problem with abdes is they think that they know everything, as dished out to them by our cunning clergy, and act as if that makes them supreme authorities on islam and religion.

Bull's eye! That's exactly the point. The abdes think that they know everything and they act as if that makes them supreme authorities on islam. The challenge now is to show them that the truth but in such a way that they can understand and accept.

Abraham Lincoln said “If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what you will, is the great high-road to his reason, and which, when once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause.”

[Al Zulfiqar]

tame 30 sawaal no jawab medavawa ni try na karo

bhai master,

aa badha sawaal na jawaab already mane khabar che. ahiya puchwano matlab ekaj che ke abde syedna jewa logo ne vichar karwa par majboor kare. pan e logo karey nahi ane ulta hamne galiyon dese. e logo ni thilli udawa mateyj a questions post karela che.

[Omega]

@ Al Zulfikar,

Brother i think you have mistaken my humbleness with my weakness. i just wanted to discuss one topic at a time so that attention is not deviated from the topic discussed. and as you have already ridiculed my intellect and wisdom, i dont have much to say.



by omabharti on Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:02 am

Omega
Sorry to butt in, I know you wanted AZ to ask the questions? I have posted a 5 questions to Guy as well HN and they disappeared
You are right, we should only ask one question at a time since too many questions to them would confuse their confused brain
SO HERE I GO
Can you justify Wadhawo which is nothing more than an Aarti of Ganpati as an Islamic tradition. I checked with my grand parents who told me that this was not done 50-60 years back.
After you answer this one then I will post next question.
Thanks


@omabharti,

Salaam,

Brother i think you have asked the same question in one of the other thread also, and it was missed due to lot of people asking questions at a same time. On this forum only i have come to know that all daawat kitabs were under three families and one of them belong to Reformists, if thats true kindly refer to them and check what is the origin of Hindu's. to make things more easy for you search how Hindu's got their name.

what i am trying to say is that all Ilm is from Allah Subanau Tala. and instead of we copying them its other way round. and their is no written document which says that wadhawanu rasm was not their in previous Dai's time. And as you have referred to some of your old people who confirmed that it was not a practice 40-50 years back, after this i have also asked few old enough people who confirm back that as far as they remember they have seen this rasm back 70 years also.

[Al Zulfiqar]

@ Al Zulfikar,

Brother i think you have mistaken my humbleness with my weakness. i just wanted to discuss one topic at a time so that attention is not deviated from the topic discussed. and as you have already ridiculed my intellect and wisdom, i dont have much to say.

omega,

there is no need to martyr yourself just yet. this is what i said earlier which i am copying here again: "We have had enough of such fools and ignorant, uncivilised fanatics like sam and others, and I am tired of undertaking pointless debates with intellectual featherweights. If you cannot even understand the topic behind all my questions, then there is nothing further left to discuss."

my comment was against the general run-of-the-mill abdesyedna types and not aimed specifically at you. it is based on past experience on this forum on dealing with abdes. your remark that guy sam has already replied to all my questions implied that the matter should be over. that was a red flag and a great provocation, as if you are dismissing the seriousness of the issues and trivialising the whole thing or you consider my questions as foolish and me as a fool too.

the entire set of questions is one topic and you are either free to reply to them one by one (as they are already in print here) or keep silent, but do not repeat what guysam did and just utter evasive replies like; its all fake, dont know, couldnt care, who cares, etc., which is an insult to anyone with a modicum of intelligence and shows up the protagonist as the fool with no substance to his replies.

[Omega]

@Al Zulfiqar,

i understand your frustration for not getting proper reply to your concerns but as you are a old member and have seen a lot of Abde's come and go you must have realised one thing for sure that as soon as some Abde replies to any of the post some 5-6 people starts commenting at the same time and asks question. like in another thread as soon as i mentioned that pardah is sunnah some one started that how will Dawoodi Bohra react to President Sarkozy and another person was talking about beard, burial et al

sure we will discuss all your 30+ questions one by one. let first Brother Omabharti come back, or we will again start another topic and his question will remain unanswered.


I assume that all who reply on this forum are males and address them as brothers, if the case is otherwise for any individual, kindly mention.

[ghulam muhammed]

I have also asked few old enough people who confirm back that as far as they remember they have seen this rasm back 70 years also.

The wadhawni rasm which your elders are mentioning is the wadhawnu during birthdays, nikahs etc. and not the wadhawni rasm of a dai as Omabharti has mentioned. No one wadhawofied the dai in the earlier days. Nowadays the abdes are forced to do wadhawni rasm even for the zaadas and zaadis when they pay (sorry, collect cash) a visit to their house.

[ghulam muhammed]

their is no written document which says that wadhawanu rasm was not their in previous Dai's time.

There is also no written document which says that the dai is 'haqiqi kaaba'.
There is also no written document which says that the dai is the malik of your jaan and maal.
There is also no written document which says that you have to pay thru your nose if you invite your dai for dinner.

There are many more such instances.

[Al Zulfiqar]

@Al Zulfiqar,

i understand your frustration for not getting proper reply to your concerns.

omega,

let me clarify. i am not frustrated for not getting proper replies to the questions posted on this thread. first of all, i am not asking these questions because i dont know the answers. the whole underlying intent is an exercise in rhetoric. what i am trying to do is make the ordinary bohra ponder on what the question/s is all about, so that they do some honest research and soul-searching and hopefully raise their level of awareness. the majority of brainwashed bohras have never even asked themselves the questions that i am asking, that is the absymal level of their ignorance! the whole idea is to make people question themselves and others like their parents, friends and their so-called learned clergy like amils, zaadas etc to get the answers, not to assume that i am ignorant and therefore need to get the answers from militant sabak and taweel indoctrinated, ghanu jeevo singing bohras!

but experience has shown that most ordinary bohras are so afraid to confront the truth that they resort to either abuse, denial, or condemnation of anyone, even inflicting violence against those who dare to disturb their comfort zone or rock their boat in matters of faith. they take it as a personal affront and insult to their intelligence, which is understandable when they have been fed lies and half-truths for the last several decades in the name of religion.

brother, our bohra religion of today is no longer an islamic sect. it is purely an evil cult which worships the syedna and punishes those who dissent. if you are here to genuinely learn and question the practices around you, then you are most welcome here, but if your attempt is simply to divert discussions into trivialities and puerile debates, then you should know that we have little patience for it.

i appreciate the humble and respectful approach you have adopted and i hope you will remain here for a long time and learn something from here as we have all done.

[SBM]

their is no written document which says that wadhawanu rasm was not their in previous Dai's time

.
Dear Br. Omega
Can you please provide me with any written document regarding Maatam after every Farad Namaz and 2 Rakat Namaz for a DAI before 52nd DAI?

[SBM]

Omega quote
let first Brother Omabharti come back, or we will again start another topic and his question will remain unanswered.

Thanks for referring me as Brother and I will reciprocate with the same respect calling you as Brother Omega
My question was replied by Br. GM eloquently. I know Wahawo was and is done during Birthdays and it is a ritual which we as Bohras adopted from Hindus (since Raja Bharmal became Dai,we are truly the descendants of a Hindu converted Dai) But lately the Wadahwo of Syedna and all Qasr-e- Aali has become a norm which was not common during earlier administrations.

[Omega]

by ghulam muhammed on Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:35 pm

The wadhawni rasm which your elders are mentioning is the wadhawnu during birthdays, nikahs etc. and not the wadhawni rasm of a dai as Omabharti has mentioned. No one wadhawofied the dai in the earlier days. Nowadays the abdes are forced to do wadhawni rasm even for the zaadas and zaadis when they pay (sorry, collect cash) a visit to their house.

Brother GM

i have already asked Brother Omabharti to refer the extensive books you have under your treasure and go to the root of Hinduism, where and how they started and all that. kindly refer to that post. and as their is no way to refute that this wadhavanu rasm was not prevalent in earlier Dai's we have to take it on the face value that it was always their. and as you have also confirmed that it was prevalent for kids on their Birthdays so a question arises how did that originated. and if it can be done for our kids why not for kids of Qasre Ali

[Omega]

by omabharti on Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:59 pm

Thanks for referring me as Brother and I will reciprocate with the same respect calling you as Brother Omega
My question was replied by Br. GM eloquently. I know Wahawo was and is done during Birthdays and it is a ritual which we as Bohras adopted from Hindus (since Raja Bharmal became Dai,we are truly the descendants of a Hindu converted Dai) But lately the Wadahwo of Syedna and all Qasr-e- Aali has become a norm which was not common during earlier administrations.

Salaam,

Brother i had asked you to refer your books on the origin of Hinduism, kindly do so. it will clear a lot of misconceptions. And I strongly disagree that Raja Bharmal ever became Dai. and in Islam whenever some converts or reverts to Islam in any way you take it he is just a Muslim and not known by thier earlier religion. and regarding it being in the earlier Dai's period please refer to my reply to Brother GM's Post

[Al Zulfiqar]

and if it can be done for our kids why not for kids of Qasre Ali

omega,

we do wadhawo for our kids only on their 'misri' birthdays. whereas the wadhawo for the so-called self-proclaimed 'royalty' is done wherever and whenever they attend any function in any city during makdam ni majlis.

btw, is the 95 year old syedna a kid?! are his 70 years old sons kids??!!

[Omega]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Salaam,

Brother when something is allowed for our kids on whatever the occasion be, lets take it their Misri Calender Bday. If thats Unislamic it should not be allowed even on their Birthday which is one of the most important day of their life.

The basic logic behind doing it on Makdam majlis or whatever Majlis whenever its performed is that on the occasion of Khushi its done as its done for kids on their Bday's