Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

[bohri]

Dear Abdes,

Are there any Bohra websites that discuss religion? 100% of Malumaat and Mumineen are devoted to pictures of the Sultan's glory and world travels as well as those of his princes conquests. Pictures, pictures and more pictures of the abdes solemn and sheepish, in rapturous devotion of the Sultan and his family. Why are there so many images and such little intellectual content? For example it would be nice to hear what was said during those waez and majlis, instead of seeing adult men in utterly humiliating poses bent double in guru-worship poses.

Is there a reason why there are no articles discussing religion, history, significance of past Imams and Dais - or even the story of Ashura?. Are there any scholars wthin your realm that publish papers or do any research on matters of religion or even social welfare of Bohras?

What purpose do these websites serve (other than entertainment value) to the average Bohra?

[Smart]

@bohri

What purpose do these websites serve (other than entertainment value) to the average Bohra?

Why only these websites? Even their majlises and vaez are all about the glory of their human cult leader and his family.

If you happen to observe two Britishers, their small talk will start with weather, similarly for two abdes, their small talk will start with "Moula ka padhara chhe"

There is no knowledge, no ideology, no values. It is a pure personality cult now.

[aqs]

Dear Abdes,

Are there any Bohra websites that discuss religion? 100% of Malumaat and Mumineen are devoted to pictures of the Sultan's glory and world travels as well as those of his princes conquests. Pictures, pictures and more pictures of the abdes solemn and sheepish, in rapturous devotion of the Sultan and his family. Why are there so many images and such little intellectual content? For example it would be nice to hear what was said during those waez and majlis, instead of seeing adult men in utterly humiliating poses bent double in guru-worship poses.

Is there a reason why there are no articles discussing religion, history, significance of past Imams and Dais - or even the story of Ashura?. Are there any scholars wthin your realm that publish papers or do any research on matters of religion or even social welfare of Bohras?

What purpose do these websites serve (other than entertainment value) to the average Bohra?

Are there any Bohra websites that discuss religion

Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums, where few so called intellectuals put their doubts and multiply it by people who comment on them, and then you put few who read english translations of Al Quran and think they have conquered the real meaning and essense of Quran when in reality they have just read out a mere translation.

100% of Malumaat and Mumineen are devoted to pictures of the Sultan's glory and world travels as well as those of his princes conquests. Pictures, pictures and more pictures of the abdes solemn and sheepish, in rapturous devotion of the Sultan and his family. Why are there so many images and such little intellectual content? For example it would be nice to hear what was said during those waez and majlis, instead of seeing adult men in utterly humiliating poses bent double in guru-worship poses.

First of all these are privately owned websites, few people from Kothar do a mentor job. Thier main purpose is to tell Akhbar of Syedna (tus), and they are doing their job. If you want to listen to what was said in Waez and majlis so go to them instead of looking for the content on websites.

Is there a reason why there are no articles discussing religion, history, significance of past Imams and Dais - or even the story of Ashura?. Are there any scholars wthin your realm that publish papers or do any research on matters of religion or even social welfare of Bohras?

Yes their is a reason which i have already stated in my first para. i'll again repeat, we dont discuss religion in open forums or on Net, if you have some query and feel that people from Dawat can answer them then ask them. Sabaks can be a place where you can start.

What purpose do these websites serve (other than entertainment value) to the average Bohra?

their only purpose is to tell about the travels of Syedna(tus) and activities going around the world among Dawoodi Bohras. they generally dont have reporters every where except few prominent places, so they heavily depend on content submitted by Bohra's around the world.

[ANA BOHRI]

Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums,

You can use internet/Furum to extort money from abdes, You can use it for ejamaat card to control the abdes but You don't want to use this source to educate the abdes who are lacking even basic knowledge about Islam……. What a lame excuse….and please stop talking about “SABAK”.We are not from Alibagh...We know what they teach there so please advice only abdes about attending sabak and all .May be they will buy it.

[S. Insaf]

There are all sorts of information in public domain on all religions, science, psychology, sex, past and present world events, art, literature, paintings, poetry, film, personalities, etc etc thanks to internet. All great religious, political, social leaders, scholars, literary geniuses, scientists, researchers, academicians, keep on adding knowledge that is they find necessary for the communities and humanity at large. Any information is just a click away.
And you say that Sayedna or Bohra websites-promoters do not want to discuss their religion or faith in public. How strange! Why your faith and religion and practices remain concealed in Bohra masjids, so-called sabak and closed circles? What are you trying to hide from Muslims and public?

[aqs]

There are all sorts of information in public domain on all religions, science, psychology, sex, past and present world events, art, literature, paintings, poetry, film, personalities, etc etc thanks to internet. All great religious, political, social leaders, scholars, literary geniuses, scientists, researchers, academicians, keep on adding knowledge that is they find necessary for the communities and humanity at large. Any information is just a click away.

@ Insaaf Saheb

Alas ! all the knowledge about deen is already conveyed by Prophet (saw), so you see nothing is remaining to update. so question of updating things does not arise. And who will verify all the information that is just a click away, or should we leave it on masses to decide what is correct for them, then the condition of Ummah is in front of you who are roaming without a Rehbar

And you say that Sayedna or Bohra websites-promoters do not want to discuss their religion or faith in public. How strange! Why your faith and religion and practices remain concealed in Bohra masjids, so-called sabak and closed circles? What are you trying to hide from Muslims and public?

We are not trying to hide something, but if you understand the history of Fatimid Dawat and shia's in general then this is called Taqiyat.

Despite your fictitious claims and fake inside stories I thought that you are among the sensible lot out here but when you compare all the world sciences with Islam then its strange for me

[aqs]

Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums,

You can use internet/Furum to extort money from abdes, You can use it for ejamaat card to control the abdes but You don't want to use this source to educate the abdes who are lacking even basic knowledge about Islam……. What a lame excuse….and please stop talking about “SABAK”.We are not from Alibagh...We know what they teach there so please advice only abdes about attending sabak and all .May be they will buy it.

Yes we use internet for the better management, but please enlighten how it was used to extort any money.

And i have not forced you to join sabaks, Ilm is Allah's prerogative, if its in your fate then only you will receive, and besides many of the abde's are already going to sabaks, I just showed another way where if you are willing you can get Ilm.

We know what they teach there

Have you ever attended any sabaks before, till what level

[Smart]

aqs wrote
Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums

This is making a virtue of necessity. It is because they want the intellectual vigour to question their pet delusions. There is a lot to hide. They realise that the moment they expose their beliefs to open scrutiny, they will be exposed.

[SBM]

aqs wrote
Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums

Salaam Br. Aqs
If that is the case and as I have stated that I did not attend Sabaks to reach the intellect level you have reached but when
Jibrael brought the message to Prophet Mohammed and then Prophet did recite it back in the public forum and it was written down by Sahabas. that was a public forum. Moula Ali and Imam Hussain did discuss the religious matters in the public forum and that was the concept of a Masjid and Jummah prayers that after Juammah people used to ask questions and it was discussed, Even Allah has reprimended Prophet Mohammed in Quran for not paying attention to a blind man for his questions and ignoring him.(surah Abasa)
It is like saying that Sunlight should only be dispersed to the people who have eyes and blinds should be shunned from the daylights as they would not be able to see anything. Who are we to decide what people learn or understand. Let it be open to everyone and let them understand to the best of their knowledge
I did attempt the initial Sabak and the person who came to give Sabak could not answer some of my questions and got annoyed with me and made a sarcastic remark that because I am involved with all Muslims, I have been tainted and have no VALVALO regarding Dawat and Dai and that was the end of my further learning.
Further I do not understand why you have to take an OATH not to release the ILM you got. Is not this a hypocrisy that at one point you quote to follow Prophet's teaching of going to China but then you are restricting in sharing the same.
Prophet did not say that only certain people can go to China to gain knowledge, he asked everyone to go regardless of their intellect level.

[Al Zulfiqar]

then the condition of Ummah is in front of you who are roaming without a Rehbar

We are not trying to hide something, but if you understand the history of Fatimid Dawat and shia's in general then this is called Taqiyat.

aqs, your in-bred contempt for all non-bohras whom you describe as, 'who are roaming without a Rehbar', and in your haste to condemn them (any fool can see what you imply from all your past posts) and portraying bohras as those chosen few alone entitled to jannat, you forget that of all the major religions and esp. considering that islam is the last one on the scene, islam has today become the 2nd largest in terms of population and geographical spread. in fact, it is widely expected that (from projections by official christian bodies themselves) by 2050, islam will have far overtaken christianity in numbers.

why is it? is it because of the bohras? do you think our last 2 syedna's exclusive, secretive and tyrannical attitude in the last 100 years has contributed to this amazing growth? do you think their policy, which has been to throw out and exclude those who do not conform to their draconian policies, (mainly centred around money) even going to the extent of persecuting, harassing and murdering dissidents, has encouraged non-muslims to convert to islam or to become a bohra?

inspite of all the lies and deception fed to you in the sabaks, islam marches forward, and 'without a worldly rehbar' like syedna. the only rehbar we need is Allah. in fact if it was left to syedna, islam would have perished and what we would have remaining, would be a clear-cut cult called "burhaniya". in a perverse way that would have deprived the syedna the false religious cover under which he operates and would have seperated, as we say "the water from the milk".

[aqs]

Walekum As salaam Br. Oma

If that is the case and as I have stated that I did not attend Sabaks to reach the intellect level you have reached but when
Jibrael brought the message to Prophet Mohammed and then Prophet did recite it back in the public forum and it was written down by Sahabas. that was a public forum. Moula Ali and Imam Hussain did discuss the religious matters in the public forum and that was the concept of a Masjid and Jummah prayers that after Juammah people used to ask questions and it was discussed, Even Allah has reprimended Prophet Mohammed in Quran for not paying attention to a blind man for his questions and ignoring him.(surah Abasa)

All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries. Now if you equate that to a open forum discussion then i have serious reservations. I dont think their was any discussion as people posed their queries and they got answers

It is like saying that Sunlight should only be dispersed to the people who have eyes and blinds should be shunned from the daylights as they would not be able to see anything. Who are we to decide what people learn or understand. Let it be open to everyone and let them understand to the best of their knowledge

already replied that Ilm is Allah's prerogative, who he give is his decision

I did attempt the initial Sabak and the person who came to give Sabak could not answer some of my questions and got annoyed with me and made a sarcastic remark that because I am involved with all Muslims, I have been tainted and have no VALVALO regarding Dawat and Dai and that was the end of my further learning.

Because of a bad teacher you lost on Ahle Bait's Ilm, in the end loss is yours, try some other Aalim, Inshallah the case will be different

Further I do not understand why you have to take an OATH not to release the ILM you got. Is not this a hypocrisy that at one point you quote to follow Prophet's teaching of going to China but then you are restricting in sharing the same.

Bhai lets take an hypothetical condition where we both start discussion on some intricacies of Sharia or Fiqah, now at the end of the discussion either of us would have influenced the other with what they thought is correct. Now who will confirm that the outcome that we have arrived is correct or not. That's why Ilm is a one way traffic where we take and the aalim gives, you can put questions forward but discussions and debates between two illiterates is totally uncalled for

Prophet did not say that only certain people can go to China to gain knowledge, he asked everyone to go regardless of their intellect level.

No he(saw) asked every one and thats what i have asked over here that go to the right place and not to open forums or Internet where already people have put their differing views on all the things under the Sun, and its left to you to choose things of your liking.

[aqs]

then the condition of Ummah is in front of you who are roaming without a Rehbar

We are not trying to hide something, but if you understand the history of Fatimid Dawat and shia's in general then this is called Taqiyat.

aqs, your in-bred contempt for all non-bohras whom you describe as, 'who are roaming without a Rehbar', and in your haste to condemn them (any fool can see what you imply from all your past posts) and portraying bohras as those chosen few alone entitled to jannat, you forget that of all the major religions and esp. considering that islam is the last one on the scene, islam has today become the 2nd largest in terms of population and geographical spread. in fact, it is widely expected that (from projections by official christian bodies themselves) by 2050, islam will have far overtaken christianity in numbers.

why is it? is it because of the bohras? do you think our last 2 syedna's exclusive, secretive and tyrannical attitude in the last 100 years has contributed to this amazing growth? do you think their policy, which has been to throw out and exclude those who do not conform to their draconian policies, (mainly centred around money) even going to the extent of persecuting, harassing and murdering dissidents, has encouraged non-muslims to convert to islam or to become a bohra?

inspite of all the lies and deception fed to you in the sabaks, islam marches forward, and 'without a worldly rehbar' like syedna. the only rehbar we need is Allah. in fact if it was left to syedna, islam would have perished and what we would have remaining, would be a clear-cut cult called "burhaniya". in a perverse way that would have deprived the syedna the false religious cover under which he operates and would have seperated, as we say "the water from the milk".

If i tell that Ummah is without a rehbar or a leader then its my inbred contempt for them and when you label all Abdes as Mushriq and send Syedna(tus) Choicest of abuse then what is it ? i dont find this as talks of reform but pure hatred towards the community of which you are a part of.
You have raised a interesting question of Non Bohras entering Jannat. So where are Mother Terassa and Gandhi or for that reason any good god fearing person regardless of religion are headed for.

[ghulam muhammed]

All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries.

You have till now been consistently shouting on top of your voice that Burhanuddin saab is 'Haq na saheb', 'Haq na dai' and now you say that only the Prophet (s.a.w.), Mola Ali (a.s.) and Imams (r.a.) could impart knowledge as they were the only 'haq na saheb'. By saying this you are contradicting your own statement. See this is what happens after rigorous brainwashing sessions in the name of sabak....... it leaves you confused.

[Al Zulfiqar]

If i tell that Ummah is without a rehbar or a leader then its my inbred contempt for them and when you label all Abdes as Mushriq and send Syedna(tus) Choicest of abuse then what is it ? i dont find this as talks of reform but pure hatred towards the community of which you are a part of. You have raised a interesting question of Non Bohras entering Jannat. So where are Mother Terassa and Gandhi or for that reason any good god fearing person regardless of religion are headed for.

aqs, there is no need to 'label'. anyone who does sajda to a human being and proudly sings madehs about it, anyone who calls their leader haqiqi kaaba, natiqe quran and sings ghanu jeevo ta qayamat, calls himself an abdesyedna or amtesyedna is not a muslim irrespective of his sect, but an unmitigated mushriq according to quran, not according to my opinion.

if calling a spade a spade is abuse, then you should file suit against each and every judge and jury who call it the way it is, i.e. when they address a legally convicted criminal as per his crime - a thief, murderer or rapist as the case may be.

i did not raise any question about non-bohras or their fate. it is who you raised it when you mentioned 'those without a rehbar'. but if you want me to tell you where mother teresa or gandhi are, you will first have to read and fully understand the quran which is the word of allah. but i forgot, you can't, only syedna the bolta quran can.

in fact, before you raise rhetorical questions about where the great and noble (non-bohra) figures of history are after their passing, you might do well to speculate on the fate of the blind followers of syedna in the hereafter, which includes yrself.

[ozmujaheed]

aqs let me understand .

You are a scholar of Jamia ? Or do you just attend as a mumin ?

Does Jamia control sabak agendas ?

Is the framework of Jamia is conducted through a panel of experts ? Not necessarily related to the Diai , his sons and daughters ? If so who are they ?

Is the Bohra ilm comparable and authentic that it can stand public scrutiny with Islamic ideology and other rational faiths ?

What does Bohra ilm really mean ? Is it history, practices and other stuff such as mythology and astronomy ? Some of the stuff I heard recently in a "relay" from your bayans sounded like 2 large asteroids collided or were separated....!

How many works of literature have been published ? I do not mean qasidas and madeh ? Real good stuff that can make it to a library ?

When you elevate people to Shieks and Mulla do they undergo knowledge competency ? Are they above Jamia graduates ? Well I see old grey haired tycoons sitting closer to the chiefs or Amils ?

Once you answer logically may be we can agrre that your sabaks and methods are really imparting knowledge or not !

[Smart]

@aqs,
If knowledge cannot be discussed in an open forum, then what are you doing here on this forum? Trying to pretend having deep and profound knowledge? Or may be your masters having it?

Please come off your delusions. It is only the pretenders to knowledge who are so secretive about their so called knowledge. My experience is no better than that of Bro. Omabharti. These pretenders lose their cool when questioned and ridicule you instead of answering. The so called higher levels are available only to those who are willing to accept any crap dished out to them. Genuine knowledge can and should be able to with stand the questioning and come out shining on the process, just like gold passing through fire comes out pure, it is the dross that is burnt.

If you have nothing to contribute here, it is okay, but trying to pretend that you and your masters are repositories of profound knowledge is not working. Not everybody who comes on this forum is a fool or an abde.

[questions]

Bohri : Good thread.

I agree with most opinions here, in that religion has to be discussed openly. If the kothari bohras have nothing to fear, why hide behind the taqiyat concept. Islam has started its kitab with Iqra and encourages knowledge and its spread in no uncertain terms. Any body of knowledge, secular or religious, scientific or spiritual, has to be open to debate and scrutiny. Otherwise it stagnates like a pool of still water.

It is only those with no knowledge that will be afraid of an open forum discussion. I have not come across any Bohras having any kind of free discussion even with Shias - where the fear of takiyat should not hold them back!

We are so afraid of knowledge that even in our waez duas, the syedna Never asks for barakat of Ilm. - it is always barkat of maal and naik farzand, sehat, etc!

[ghulam muhammed]

And you say that Sayedna or Bohra websites-promoters do not want to discuss their religion or faith in public. How strange! Why your faith and religion and practices remain concealed in Bohra masjids, so-called sabak and closed circles? What are you trying to hide from Muslims and public?


We are not trying to hide something, but if you understand the history of Fatimid Dawat and shia's in general then this is called Taqiyat.

The concept of Taqiyah and under what circumstances it is permissible:-

'Whoever denies Allah after beleiving in Him, save Him who is compelled and his heart is firm on belief, yes whoever becomes an infidel with an open heart, upon them is the wrath of Allah, and for them is a great punishment'


As a general rule, by rejecting the laws of Allah the Almighty, and His Most Beloved Prophet (s.a.w.), this would be a rejection of Allah the Almighty.


The reason for the revelation of this verse, is related to Hadrat 'Ammar bin Yasir (r.a.), as the kuffar of Makkah had captured his parents, and tortured them, to the extent that they killed them, because they tried to turn them into apostates. These were the first two people to give their lives in the name of Islam. Hadrat 'Ammar was too weak to bear the torture of the infidels, and as a result he repeated what they wanted him to say, then he came weeping to the Beloved Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.), seeing this, the Beloved Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.) dried his tears, with his own blessed hands. This is how this verse was revealed.


The religious issues which derive from this holy verse are as follows:


a) To utter the words of infidelity when the life is endangered is permissible, on condition that ones faith is still deeply rooted in ones heart. Having uttered this, one must leave such a place and no longer remain there. However if he doesnt utter the words of infidelity for which he is killed, he would be a martyr entitled to a great reward.


b) All the good deeds of an apostate are ruined and he becomes worse than an actual infidel. The errors of the pious servants of Allah the Almighty turn out to be a blessing and bounty for the others. Hadrat Mawlana Jalal al-Din Rumi (r.a.)says, a sincere error becomes a path of guidance for the people. A collective infidelity becomes a path of infidelity for the people.

It is for this reason that the order for a genuinely helpless person is that after uttering infidelity under compulsion, he should immediately run away from such a place. As soon as such a helpless situation has been overcome, he should publicly declare his faith once more.

http://ashraf786.proboards.com/index.cg ... hread=8005

[ghulam muhammed]

That's why Ilm is a one way traffic where we take and the aalim gives

So according to you who is a qualified aalim ? Only the very few in a bohra community alone, the community which in itself is not even 0.001% of the entire muslim ummah. It means that there are no qualified aalims anywhere on the planet save the bohras. This is a part of the 'gheta mentality'.

No he(saw) asked every one and thats what i have asked over here that go to the right place

And according to you the ONLY right place on this planet is the bohra sabak, the rest is taboo.

Yes we use internet for the better management, but please enlighten how it was used to extort any money.

By publishing colorful pictures of every ziafat and mafsusiyat which is granted only after recieving fat bundles of notes and seeing this every bohra wants to be one up and craves to hog the limelight and for which there is intense competition.

Alas ! all the knowledge about deen is already conveyed by Prophet (saw), so you see nothing is remaining to update.

So then according to you what is a rehber for ? And you honestly believe that there have been no extensive updates by the current dai ? What is 2 rakat namaz for dai, maatam after every namaz, giving religous sanctity to masjids only on recieving monetary considerations, charging handsome amounts for burial, to name a few ?

Despite your fictitious claims and fake inside stories I thought that you are among the sensible lot out here

Yes. Insafbhai is a very sensible person who gives extensive references and names of aggrieved parties whenever he posts any comments of the atrocities on the bohras but sadly you refuse to acknowledge that because then it amounts to wilful submission which is strictly against your teachings in sabaks.

if you have some query and feel that people from Dawat can answer them then ask them.

There are innumerable questions on the reformist's agenda. Can you please arrange a public debate/discussion with some responsible person from daawat ? I lay my bet on this.

[bohri]

brother questions

Bohri : Good thread.

Thank you.

ASAK Brother aqs - I appreciate your reply and your patience, I would like to respond.

You said:

Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums, where few so called intellectuals put their doubts and multiply it by people who comment on them, and then you put few who read english translations of Al Quran and think they have conquered the real meaning and essense of Quran when in reality they have just read out a mere translation

In that case what do you think of the Daim-ul-Islaam. This was written by a Fatemid Dai of the time. Did he violate "taqiyat" by making this so publicly available?

Further - what do you make of the Yusufali translation of the Holy Qur'an? Was that a mistake too?

Every year during the 10 days of Ashura, many bohris visit Ithna-Asheri waezs and lectures - since there are no restrictions on who attends these majliss', they would also be considered 'public forums'. What is your opinion of such majlises?

And your comment on the purpose of the websites:

their only purpose is to tell about the travels of Syedna(tus) and activities going around the world among Dawoodi Bohras. they generally dont have reporters every where except few prominent places, so they heavily depend on content submitted by Bohra's around the world

I find the opulence and particularly the pictures of the Sultan travelling in Rolls Royce in wretchedly poor Mumbai very distasteful. Can you explain how the Dai "lives like Ali"?

How do you reconcile Islam's disdain of images and the very public images of the The Sultan and his family splashed all over the internet?

This are difficult questions, your honesty instead of justification would be appreciated!

Thanks.... Bohri

[aqs]

All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries.

You have till now been consistently shouting on top of your voice that Burhanuddin saab is 'Haq na saheb', 'Haq na dai' and now you say that only the Prophet (s.a.w.), Mola Ali (a.s.) and Imams (r.a.) could impart knowledge as they were the only 'haq na saheb'. By saying this you are contradicting your own statement. See this is what happens after rigorous brainwashing sessions in the name of sabak....... it leaves you confused.

You need to understand the concept of Haq na saheb. When Prophet (saw) was present he (saw) was the Haq na saheb after him Moula Ali(as) and then the continuation in Imams(as) and in their seclusion Dai is the Haq na saheb. So when Oma talked about knowledge being imparted by Prophet(as), Moula Ali(as) and Imamain then i said that they were Haq na saheb. I have never mentioned they were ONLY haq na saheb
I am very clear about my deen and where i am headed for, its better you start looking for yourself.

[aqs]

i did not raise any question about non-bohras or their fate. it is who you raised it when you mentioned 'those without a rehbar'. but if you want me to tell you where mother teresa or gandhi are, you will first have to read and fully understand the quran which is the word of allah. but i forgot, you can't, only syedna the bolta quran can.

in fact, before you raise rhetorical questions about where the great and noble (non-bohra) figures of history are after their passing, you might do well to speculate on the fate of the blind followers of syedna in the hereafter, which includes yrself.

@Alzulfiqar
When i talked about them being without a rehbar, i merely talked about this world but as you have ventured into life here after and i appreciate your concern for my fate also, Do mention where you and your ilk are headed for, If you have a shia belief then definitely you need some soul searching. and please dont hide behind the excuse of telling me to go ahead and read Quran, tell every one out here what you think is going to be the fate of God fearing good people but non Muslims

[aqs]

aqs let me understand .

You are a scholar of Jamia ? Or do you just attend as a mumin ?

No i am not a scholar of Jamia, as you should have already guessed by my lack of knowledge of Arabic and Al Quran. I have attended Sabaks in the past

Does Jamia control sabak agendas ?

Jamia is just a seminery where students get education. Sabaks are based on books and generally controlled by the Ustad or teacher.



Is the framework of Jamia is conducted through a panel of experts ? Not necessarily related to the Diai , his sons and daughters ? If so who are they ?

yes their is a panel of experts who are headed by senior teachers of Jamia. call up Jamia or ask any student over their and they should be able to give their details

Is the Bohra ilm comparable and authentic that it can stand public scrutiny with Islamic ideology and other rational faiths ?

yes its very much comparable and authentic, its just that the Aalims dont discuss in open forums or dont indulge in debates due to the call of Taqiya, but as and when the need will arise they will surely answer the queries of People, as it was done in 1399 hijri in the form of Multaqa al Fatemi al ilmi

What does Bohra ilm really mean ? Is it history, practices and other stuff such as mythology and astronomy ? Some of the stuff I heard recently in a "relay" from your bayans sounded like 2 large asteroids collided or were separated....!

their is nothing called Bohra Ilm all the Ilm is from Ahle Bait, and yes it covers each and every thing. now i dont understand what do you mean by Mythology but astronomy is surely covered. and relay which you are talking about sounds like you had heard about Mojiza of shiqaqul Qamar by Prophet(saw). Its mentioned in Al Quran and i hope you believe in parting of Moon

How many works of literature have been published ? I do not mean qasidas and madeh ? Real good stuff that can make it to a library ?

I dont know, any one from Jamia should be able to update on this, ask aamil of your region, if you can go to waez where you heard the relay then you surely must be a part of jamaat


When you elevate people to Shieks and Mulla do they undergo knowledge competency ? Are they above Jamia graduates ? Well I see old grey haired tycoons sitting closer to the chiefs or Amils ?

if you have been to majlis then you surely would have noticed that people from Jamia sit in front of aamil and other Sheikh or Mulla on the right and left, and when two people, one from jamia and one from public is available then its always the person from Jamia leads the prayers, so surely they have more weight

Once you answer logically may be we can agrre that your sabaks and methods are really imparting knowledge or not !

again i'll repeat, if its in you fate then only you will get. so its not you who will decide whether you will get Ahle Bait's ilm it will be Allah's decision

[aqs]

Walekum as salaam Brother Bohri

brother questions

Bohri : Good thread.

Thank you.

ASAK Brother aqs - I appreciate your reply and your patience, I would like to respond.

You said:

Religion is not suppose to be discussed on open forums, where few so called intellectuals put their doubts and multiply it by people who comment on them, and then you put few who read english translations of Al Quran and think they have conquered the real meaning and essense of Quran when in reality they have just read out a mere translation

In that case what do you think of the Daim-ul-Islaam. This was written by a Fatemid Dai of the time. Did he violate "taqiyat" by making this so publicly available?

We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered

Further - what do you make of the Yusufali translation of the Holy Qur'an? Was that a mistake too?

its a mere translation, i have never heard that any one from dawat has endorsed it, its famous because it was the first English translation thats it, any one with sound knowledge of Arabic can interpret

Every year during the 10 days of Ashura, many bohris visit Ithna-Asheri waezs and lectures - since there are no restrictions on who attends these majliss', they would also be considered 'public forums'. What is your opinion of such majlises?

Majlises without raza are totally uncalled for, If you go their for comparative study then its ok otherwise its not approved by dawat

And your comment on the purpose of the websites:

their only purpose is to tell about the travels of Syedna(tus) and activities going around the world among Dawoodi Bohras. they generally dont have reporters every where except few prominent places, so they heavily depend on content submitted by Bohra's around the world

I find the opulence and particularly the pictures of the Sultan travelling in Rolls Royce in wretchedly poor Mumbai very distasteful. Can you explain how the Dai "lives like Ali"?

Dai lives like the Imam's of Fatimid Dynasty of Egypt. How do you expect the dai to live and travel when their are Bohra's to take care of each and every expense

How do you reconcile Islam's disdain of images and the very public images of the The Sultan and his family splashed all over the internet?

Kindly justify Asgher Ali engineer's portrait on this very forum

This are difficult questions, your honesty instead of justification would be appreciated!

Thanks.... Bohri

[aqs]

That's why Ilm is a one way traffic where we take and the aalim gives

So according to you who is a qualified aalim ? Only the very few in a bohra community alone, the community which in itself is not even 0.001% of the entire muslim ummah. It means that there are no qualified aalims anywhere on the planet save the bohras. This is a part of the 'gheta mentality'.

when it comes to deen then yes only we have the ILM, for other things Allah has bestowed every one with Ilm

No he(saw) asked every one and thats what i have asked over here that go to the right place

And according to you the ONLY right place on this planet is the bohra sabak, the rest is taboo.

No rest is not taboo, Syedna (tus) encourages to go and take whatever worldly knowledge people want to take, its just that dont go far from Ahle Mohammed's ilm in your worldly ilm's conquest

Yes we use internet for the better management, but please enlighten how it was used to extort any money.

By publishing colorful pictures of every ziafat and mafsusiyat which is granted only after recieving fat bundles of notes and seeing this every bohra wants to be one up and craves to hog the limelight and for which there is intense competition.

When people want to give Ziyafat and compete with each other how is that extortion

Alas ! all the knowledge about deen is already conveyed by Prophet (saw), so you see nothing is remaining to update.

So then according to you what is a rehber for ? And you honestly believe that there have been no extensive updates by the current dai ? What is 2 rakat namaz for dai, maatam after every namaz, giving religous sanctity to masjids only on recieving monetary considerations, charging handsome amounts for burial, to name a few ?

you call 2 rakat namaz for dai as extention then what do you call behori namaaz prayed by every one in Shehre Ramzaan, defintely nothing of this sort was available at the time of Prophet (saw), or for that instance Moula Ali (as) name in Azaan or was that also their in Prophet's time. Or for that instance dua we recite in namaaz, was it also available in Prophet's (saw)time.
and matam is not a part of namaaz, you are very well free to go out, no one will ask you why.

you have repeated this quite often that Syedna(tus) asks for money to give sanctity to a masjid, why dont you quote few irrefutable sources or is it again just a common knowledge thing

Despite your fictitious claims and fake inside stories I thought that you are among the sensible lot out here

Yes. Insafbhai is a very sensible person who gives extensive references and names of aggrieved parties whenever he posts any comments of the atrocities on the bohras but sadly you refuse to acknowledge that because then it amounts to wilful submission which is strictly against your teachings in sabaks.

He is a elder person and i'll leave it at that.

if you have some query and feel that people from Dawat can answer them then ask them.

There are innumerable questions on the reformist's agenda. Can you please arrange a public debate/discussion with some responsible person from daawat ? I lay my bet on this.

i can not arrange any such thing, but you can try your Mohalla Aamil, in most cases he will be enough for your queries.

[bLuEbIRd]

Dear Friendz, Personally I'm not an Orthodox Shia Muslim. I consider myself as a Shia first and a Dawoodi Bohra after that. However I do not understand the reason that why so much pressures are being put on the need to wear Imami Libas in community halls, masjids and other places of Ziyarats. Why can't a simple cotton Shirt & Pant with our topi don't quite suffice the eyes of the Kothar. Why can't we pray namaz in simple clothes in our masjids ? Why can't we go for Ziyarats in our simple clothes ? Why do we alwayz have to change into the Imami Libas at all such places ? Friendz, please help me to clear doubts regarding this.

[SBM]

Aqs
Because of a bad teacher you lost on Ahle Bait's Ilm, in the end loss is yours, try some other Aalim, Inshallah the case will be different

Aqs
Asalam U Alekum ( or kem cho)
It is easy for you to say go to another Aalim. I do not know what country you live in(sic) but in USA there are very limited number of Aaamils. and one does not have choice of Aamil or Aalim, whoever came to that particular Jamaat to give Sabak, you are stuck with that person and that is one and only, the other Jamaat Aamil will not even perform your burial or Nikkah unless you have Safai Chitti from you Mohalla Aamil. You see every thing is controlled, so if you have problem with you Mohalla Aamil, brother you are done, you are castigated period.
BTW I have seen lately that very few new Aamils are coming to USA, rumors are that visas are being denied, used to be that after 3 years they used to rotate the Aamils but in some Jamaats in USA the Aamil has become a permanent structure.
That is one of the reason that last time Syedna came to USA he only visited 3 or 4 cities in Northeast, he did not even visit the headquarters of Dawoodi Bohras in Houston-Dallas and LA. He and some of his close relatives do have visa to USA but most of his entourage is being denied visa. The big fiasco of Houston Ashura which brought 14,000 people only had about 3000 for North America (USA and Canada) and rest came from Asia and became illegal residents ( I know 4 families in my local jamaat who came for Houston Ashura not for Deedar but for staying in American permanently)

[bohri]

Bro aqs

Dai lives like the Imam's of Fatimid Dynasty of Egypt. How do you expect the dai to live and travel when their are Bohra's to take care of each and every expense

My expectation is that he should live simply. I also expect that the monies he receives should be shared amongst the poor Bohris instead of lavish living.

You have justified his lifestlye and avoided my question - how does the Sultan live like Maula Ali?

How do you reconcile Islam's disdain of images and the very public images of the The Sultan and his family splashed all over the internet?

Kindly justify Asgher Ali engineer's portrait on this very forum

No justification required, - Asghar bhai is an ordinary scholar and one of many Shia that one may consult. His picture accompanies the article he has authored, much the same way you would find in newspapers and magazines. I have never seen anyone bowing to him nor praying to him.

Why do you compare Asghar bhai with the Sultan?

The translations, majliss and other books are not considered authentic by the dawat. Are the madehs' written by bohra poets in worship of the Sultan considered authentic or are they suspect too?

[ANA BOHRI]

One thing is sure that Mr. aqs is living in some fantasy world.

1) If things were so simple in our community.
2) If Aamil or Aalim were so well behaved
3) If Our Jamat and Kotharis were accounting for all the collections they make and
4) If burial and other procession in our community were done without extorting money
Then why the hell you think we would be breaking our head over here……

Auqa Mola’s Vaaez can be relayed on Internet but they can not use this mode to educate the people. Why don’t you admit that if people start discussing about our community on internet then all of you would be exposed completely and your bread and butter will be snatched.

[bLuEbIRd]

Salaam,

I agree with Ana's statements that if things were so damn simple then why the hell would we break our heads over here. The Sad part is that things are really not that simple. Life's not just black & white. There are a lot of shades of grey within also and like that even in our community there are many things that's just not to be seen in a black & white format. The whole system is corrupt. As far as i can see, I see a majority of the people with long beards & The Imami Libas being the most corrupt of all. Humanity for that matter is Lost in the encircles of the ' long beards' & the white clothes. Corruption breeds to the maximum.