Raza

[hur]

Dear Humsafar

You asked:
What is your criteria or logic for assigning centrality to any tenet or practice?

--I didn't assign centrality to a tenet or practice. I also don't say it is outside the realm of legimate practice, like you do. It is just as important as giving sadaqah or other sunnah practic. This is my point. Raza is an practice of manner and moral that the Prophet taught to the muslims. It is a means of both to obtain info on the islamic realm of the item asked of and to obtain the blessing in the asking itself.

For example: when asking for a child's name...many muslims pick a name because they like for some reason..possibly not knowing that it has bad connotations or is not a good name to have. Many people name their children Asad or Azad or Talwar. These are arabic/farsi names that are known to have bad connotations or that the Prophet disliked being named after animals and objects.

You wrote:
"..the majority of Muslims believe that it is not central to the Islamic belief system"

---Firstly, what a majority believe is not criteria of what is islamic belief or not. This is why I brought up Taraweh in Ramadhan. Secondly, I won't say that a majority ignored it. I meant many either didn't know/understand or they ignored it. Remember, in the Prophet's time, the education or manner level or the of the society wasn't that great. As muslims rulers came into place, most issues of religious belief were subjective to the ruler belief/understanding...thus the madhabs.

Regarding your accounts..I will neither support nor denounce them. One side says they ridiculed the Dai...so they were punished for it...and your side says they were wrong in doing so. I will tell you barat is a legimate and sometimes required as part of Islam and supported by the traditions of the Prophet and Imams. How it is applied is subjective though.

[Muslim First]

Narrated Ibn Abbas (Bukhari 2:339)

A person died and Allah's Apostle used to visit him. He died at night and (the people) buried him at night. In the morning they informed the Prophet (about his death). He said, "What prevented you from informing me?" They replied, "It was night and it was a dark night and so we disliked to trouble you." The Prophet went to his grave and offered the (funeral) prayer.

Narrated Abu Huraira (Bukhari 1:448)

A black man or a black woman used to sweep the mosque and he or she died. The Prophet asked about her (or him). He was told that she (or he) had died. He said, "Why did you not inform me? Show me his grave (or her grave)." So he went to her (his) grave and offered her (his) funeral prayer."

*************
It appears that Prophet's 'RAZA' was not needed to bury people!
*************
.

[Aftab]

7) But where it is deemed mandatory, raza is ruthlessly used to keep the sheep in line, and as a stick to intimidate, harass and ex-communicate those who stray out of it.

---Again..based on what...the lies you've listed so far??? Imam Sadiq said a shiah of ahlul bayt is one who first follows the commands of God and then follows us...we have no association (barat) with those who do not follow God's command. When your done finding YOUR OPINION of humanitary ideal...try basing it on the Islam.

_ ''But what if the us (Dai) is corrupt, has gained that position due to previous instances of poisoning, has no transparency in his wealth etc ect. What then? There are strict qualifications for an Imam or a Dai. Those qualifications are published and Burhanuddin falls miserably short of these. So do not push Burhanuddin down our throats, because he is our problem.''

And lastly, based on your own explanation of good conduct, the present Sayedna does not follow the akhalaq of the prophet. He does not have the grace and humility to forgive his enemies.

---According to an article in this site, the Dai called all the families of Udaipur back to the fold without reprecaution, costs or retribution. Half the Udaipur jamats shifted. These are the same jamats the curse and denounce him...correct. I can't say I know the refined details of your objections...but that sound pretty forgiving to me.

- ''What a cheap example you cough up, Burhanuddin was not magnanimous in inviting the Udaipur bohra, he was doing it for his own intrest. Come up with some better examples of this great man that you are claiming to have contributed to society, Cursing is more associated with you guys than us, so do not portray that holier than thou act."

[hur]

Dear MuslimFirst,
In both hadiths..the Prophet asked why HE wasn't informed or why prevented them from informing HIM first. This implies that he should have been informed before burying the people!

And to add...the Prophet went and performed the janaza prayer immediately. If the janaza prayer was offered already...why would the Prophet go and offer it again immediately??? You cannot perform two janaza prayer...especially after the person is buried!!!

Think about it. In both cases the Prophet wanted to be firstly informed to perform the janaza prayer. When he found out it was done without his knowledge..he went and performed it again...which essentially nullifies the original janaza prayer.

[Humsafar]

Originally posted by hur:
Raza is an practice of manner and moral...

Well, that proves my point. Raza was only a practice. It does not have the centrality as, for example, shahdah, salah and haj have. Its practice is completely voluntary, and not incumbent upon believers. Raza was never insutionalised - except among Bohras and other cult-lilke organisations. Those who do use it and impose it on believers have a vested interest in doing so.

I've nothing more to add on this subject.

Regarding your accounts..I will neither support nor denounce them. One side says they ridiculed the Dai...so they were punished for it...

The prophet was ridiculed, hounded and stoned. But he forgave his enemies. What kind of inafllible Dai is this that claims to have the prophet's high akhalaq but behaves like a schoolyard bully - allowing his lackeys to punish people?

[hur]

Dear Aftab,
You wrote:
But what if the us (Dai) is corrupt, has gained that position due to previous instances of poisoning, has no transparency in his wealth etc ect. What then? There are strict qualifications for an Imam or a Dai. Those qualifications are published and Burhanuddin falls miserably short of these. So do not push Burhanuddin down our throats, because he is our problem.

---I am not arguing why or why not to follow the Dai. My point is not to use Islamic belief and fiqh and usul as your justification, when you are wrong in doing so. The Dai, like our Ayatuallah, are not the Imams. The qualification for the Imam are clear. But your arguments are weak to start. Poisioning? Most of the Imams, Ayatuallahs, and Dais were poisoned. Wealth? Imams Ali, Hasan, and Husain were wealthy. The Fatimi Imams were wealthy. Is that your justification??

If you have a problem with him...don't follow him. How can you follow a person...you find at fault?

You wrote:
"what a cheap example you cough up, Burhanuddin was not magnanimous in inviting the Udaipur bohra, he was doing it for his own intrest. Come up with some better examples of this great man that you are claiming to have contributed to society, Cursing is more associated with you guys than us, so do not portray that holier than thou act.

---That cheap example was from this site and is a reality. Why is it cheap...Udaipur is the heart of the reformist movement. Why was it for his own interest?? What would he gain by going to those that directly oppose him?? He would have done just fine not doing anything. The fact that he did should be given some credit.

The reformist don't like and vehemently curse the Dai just as much as his supporter's curse the reformists. Its tit for tat...but neither is correct in doing so. And please don't use Islam to support your's or their actions.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
Your grasping at straw now. Unfortunately, your starting to partially reference to support your view.

When I wrote "practice"..the context was in practice of the Prophet he taught to the muslims. That means it is a traditon (sunnah). The sunnah for a believeer is not optional or voluntary...it is required. Sadaqah for a believer is required.

Regarding akhlaq...the Prophet forgave his enemies for the wrong they commited. If they continued to commit the wrong...he fought them until they stopped commiting it. I hope you see the difference.

[Aftab]

Most of the Imams, Ayatuallahs, and Dais were poisoned.

Yet you support the very murderers who committed acts of aggression. I really fail to understand you; instead of punishing these culprits you do sajda to them. Now do not dance your way out of this by saying you only mentioned poisoning in general, but there is no proof that Taher Saifuddin administrated poison.

Wealth? Imams Ali, Hasan, and Husain were wealthy. The Fatimi Imams were wealthy. Is that your justification??

Imam Ali, even if he had wealth was not fleecing the community the way Burhannudin does. Pagla, Daris at wealthy peoples homes is just inhuman. Read Nagul Balaga and see how Maulana Ali opposed all that nonsense.

If you have a problem with him...don't follow him. How can you follow a person...you find at fault?

That is exactly what we are doing. Our fight is with all the Jamaat properties and institutions that he has done wakaf and created a huge business for himself, in complete contrast to the aims and aspirations of the institutions and trusts. What was his deploy to make him the sole owner of all Bohora properties tabled in the Canadian Parliament.

If Imam Ali was rich, he was certainty not a daylight robber and thug.

What would he gain by going to those that directly oppose him?? He would have done just fine not doing anything. The fact that he did should be given some credit.

You have to understand what happened in Udaipur. In any case you are not ready for the truth. He would not dare go to Udaipur and he kept away for a very long time. All the Jamaat properties are in the hands of the progressives and he is trying hard to break us. So it is a strategic ploy, Kothar does not move an inch if there is no benefit for them.

The reformist doesn’t like and vehemently curse the Dai just as much as his supporter's curse the reformists. Its tit for tat...but neither is correct in doing so. And please don't use Islam to support your's or their actions.

Let me say that I saw some hope in you when you mentioned that cursing is not correct. Do not for a moment pretend that you have not heard both Taher Saifuddin and Burhanuddin in the house of God, on Mimbar saying Lanat to Munafikins. Who are these munafikins – they are their own community members who were the builders of the corner stones of the community – to name a few Admjee Pirdhai, Karimjee Jivanjees. Noman Contractor and lately Asgerali Engineer. Burhanuddin got himself in to a lot of trouble by cursing the caliphs in Bombay. It is part of their make up and I hope he is going to be taken to task for cursing the progressive one day.

[Average Bohra]

A Jew cursed and spat and threw garbage on the Prophet...and the Prophet told his companions that he is my friend. The Jew seeing this accepted Islam. This is the respect and dignity the Prophet taught us to give to our enemies.

the Prophet forgave his enemies for the wrong they commited. If they continued to commit the wrong...he fought them until they stopped commiting it. I hope you see the difference.

So following Hur's logic:

"respect & dignity" for your enemies is synonymous with,
1. First call your enemy your friend
2. Then beat the crap out of him until he is dead or he succumbs and starts agreeing with you.

Now I understand the respect and dignity the Dai shows to people that don't agree with him.

[Humsafar]

Right on, AB. After all I can agree with you on something.

Aftab, you raise interesting points but don't expect straight answers from Hur whose moral bankruptcy (not to speak of intellectual perversion) is evident from "I will neither support nor denounce" the Dai's goons who beat up innocent women. What kind of impotent fence-sitting is this Hur? I know that your loyalty to your masters prevents you from taking a stand, but after all conscience also counts for something. Can you look in the mirror with a straight face? Or have stopped looking in the mirror?

As for Udaipur events: Sayedna placed conditions on the return of reformists back to the fold. He wanted them to apologise and give misaaq. The reformists refused to apologise because they had done no wrong. Even so, afterwards a handful of reformist leaders thought the better of it and went to Rampura where Sayedna was camping, ready to meet all his conditions. But they were humiliated and insulted and the Sayedna refused to see them. And the rest, as they say, is history (which people like you are paid to distort).

I'm sure the Prophet would have behaved differently under similar circumstances. Ergo, the Sayedna does not follow the Prophet's example/sunnah. Hence, he has no akhalaq. Therefore, he is not infallible.

[hur]

Dear Aftab,
Where exactly did I state in anyway of supporting the murders??? Do guys just read half of what I write...or just pick out the things that you like!!!

I neither denounce or support the Dai because I only know half the story...like you guys. I cannot pass judgement BASED ONLY ON WHAT YOU SAY.

You call paying your wajibat "fleecing"?? If that is the case than that is exactly what the Prophet and the Imams did...YOUR WORD NOT MINE! I think you need to read more than one paragraph of Najh ul'Balagha and see what the context of what Imam Ali was writing for.

As a general note...I think you need to learn a whole lot more about the Prophet and Imam before you start comparing/ridiculing the Dai against their standard. You don't know half of what you speak about.

Regarding cursing...this is a separate issue. And I have argued on this board that cursing is allowed. Let's leave that issue out.

Regarding Udaipur...I think you know less about it than I do...I have several Udaipuri friends on both sides. Owning properties doesn't mean a whole lot when a large contingent switches.

[hur]

Dear AB,
Is it common for you to take a person's words out of context and then malign them? Isn't difficult to talk about someone else's akhlaq when you show very little of your own.

the Prophet's method towards the enemy:
1.) TREAT your enemy as your friend...so that you do not become like them.

2.) If your enemy continues to commit wrong against you..fight with your hand, if not able, fight with your speech, if not able, fight with your heart. Do so until they stop.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,

I think we have reached the end of our discussion.

You have slumped into misquote and malignment of what I wrote. Mainly because you have little to support your theory on raza.

My master is not whom you think...and you know little of your own belief to think you do.

You can look in the mirror and see whom you want and justify your belief in anyway you want. It does make you a shiah, let alone a bohra!

At the outset you said raza was a "feudal", "invented", and "not islamic". You said the Dai was "petty" and "perverse" for using it. You called those that practice it as "slaves" and "sheep".

At the end..you have nothing but your maligning words of me to support your thinking.

It is the sunnah of the Prophet..which the believer must adhere. This alone should atleast make you curb your tongue.

Thanks for the time.

[Muslim First]

Br. hur/Qiyam

Wrote

And to add...the Prophet went and performed the janaza prayer immediately. If the janaza prayer was offered already...why would the Prophet go and offer it again immediately??? You cannot perform two janaza prayer...especially after the person is buried!!!

Think about it. In both cases the Prophet wanted to be firstly informed to perform the janaza prayer. When he found out it was done without his knowledge..he went and performed it again...which essentially nullifies the original janaza prayer.

Perhaps you should read this form Fiqh-us-Sunnah

Fiqh-us-Sunnah 4:51A

Funeral Prayer on a Grave

It is permissible to offer funeral prayer for a deceased anytime after his burial, even if a prayer was offered prior to his burial. As mentioned above, the Prophet, peace be upon him, offered funeral prayer for the martyrs of Uhud after eight years. Zaid ibn Thabit reported: "Once we went out with the Prophet, peace be upon him . When we reached al-Baqi ' (Famous cemetery in Madinah, where a large number of the Prophet's companions are buried) we noticed a newly dug grave. The Prophet, peace be upon him, asked about it and was told that was the grave of such and such a woman. At this he said: 'Why did you not inform me of her death?' They replied, 'O Prophet of Allah! You were fasting and were resting at the time and we did not want to bother you. ‘He said: 'Do not do that again. So long as I am with you, make sure you inform me when any one among you dies, for my prayers for the deceased is a mercy for them.' Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, went to the grave. We stood in rows behind him and he offered a funeral prayer for her with four takbirs." This hadith has been reported by Ahmad, Nasa'i, Al-Baihaqi, Al-Hakim and Ibn Hibban. The last two reporters regard it as a sound hadith.

Tirmidhi said: This has been the practice of most of the scholars, the Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them), as well as others. Ash-Shafi'i, Ahmad, and Ishaq hold the same view. This hadith also shows that the Prophet, peace be upon him, offered funeral prayer at a grave when a funeral prayer had already been offered by his Companions for the deceased before her burial, for they could not bury her without a funeral prayer. From this hadith it is also obvious that praying for the dead (before the burial) was a common practice of the Companions, and was not limited only to the Prophet, peace be upon him.

Ibn Al-Qayyim said: "These proven traditions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, do not contradict the sound hadith that reports the statement of the Prophet, peace be upon him: 'Do not sit by the graves, or offer prayer facing them.' This is a sound hadith that bids us not to sit or pray at the graves. What is forbidden is to offer formal prayer (salah) facing a grave. Offering a funeral prayer at the grave is not forbidden, for funeral prayer does not have to be offered at any specific place. It is rather better offered outside a mosque than inside it. The funeral prayer at the grave is similar to offering it beside the coffin. In either case the prayer is offered for the deceased, and his body, whether it is in the coffin or in the grave, remains in the same position. Offering prayers other than funeral prayers are forbidden at graves, for there is a risk that this may tum these graveyards into mosques, against which the Prophet, peace be upon him, wamed us. He cursed those who tum graves into places of worship, saying: 'Some evil people will be overtaken by the Day of Judgement, including those (evil people) who tum graves into mosques.' This warning has no bearing on an act that the Prophet, peace be upon him, repeatedly perfommed. "

******
Wasalaam
.

[Aftab]

Dear Hur, (have we met before?)

Poisoning? Most of the Imams, Ayatollahs, and Dais were poisoned.

Where exactly did I state in anyway of supporting the murders??? Do guys just read half of what I write...or just pick out the things that you like!!!

I neither denounce nor support the Dai because I only know half the story...like you guys. I cannot pass judgment BASED ONLY ON WHAT YOU SAY.

‘’When you agree that most of the Dais were poisoned and you support the dai, is it not than a fair assumption that you support the murderers. Do you see the connection?’’

‘’Your statement that you neither support nor denounce the Dai is a LIE.
What we have seen is a whole load of support and no denunciation – nil, nada.’’

You call paying your wajibat "fleecing"?? If that is the case than that is exactly what the Prophet and the Imams did...YOUR WORD NOT MINE! I think you need to read more than one paragraph of Najh ul'Balagha and see what the context of what Imam Ali was writing for.

’’I did not want to quote Najh ul Balagha. Since you asked for it, read letter number 45 where Amirul Mumineen reprimands Uthman ibn Hunayf who was amir ul muminin’s Governor of Basra, when he came to know that the people of that place had invited Uthman to a banquet and he had attended.’’

‘’I was referring Najh ul Balaga on the shameless practices of the present dai to collect money from the rich through ziyafats. No I was not referring to Fleecing.’’

As a general note...I think you need to learn a whole lot more about the Prophet and Imam before you start comparing/ridiculing the Dai against their standard. You don't know half of what you speak about.

’’Your advice is NOT well taken. Learning is never enough and is a journey. So what you are saying is only learned men like the dai is allowed to speak?”

Regarding cursing...this is a separate issue. And I have argued on this board that cursing is allowed. Let's leave that issue out.

”I am not surprised at your stance and humility. I guess we are both woven from different threads, you from the thread that allows curses.”

Regarding Udaipur...I think you know less about it than I do...I have several Udaipuri friends on both sides. Owning properties doesn't mean a whole lot when a large contingent switches.

“Again, your judgment that I know less than you do is frankly insulting. I am intimately involved with the struggles of Udaipur and reformists in general. I was also quite involved with the main stream Bohras and have strayed away from them. I derive religious inspirations from Dr. Engineer, Dr. Poonawalla, Dr. Hamdani and her daughter Dr. Hamdani, Dr. Sachidina and Dr. Bahmanpuor to name a few.

[hur]

Dear MuslimFirst,
I will let the idiotic note of "Qiyam" pass.

Regarding burial...note the hadith quotes the Prophet stating specifically that HE should be informed...because for HIM to pray it (even after) is a mercy to the dead one.

The thing that is not limited is to perform the janaza at the time of burial. Both Tirmidhi and Ibn Qayyim note this as well.

[Humsafar]

Hur,

Do you have the "raza" to come here and talk to muanfiqueen? If not, you're not practicing what you preach. If yes, then you must be the kothar's agent (because no sensible bohra would seek raza to come here).

As for me not beng fit to be a shiah/bohra doesn't casue me sleepless nights. In fact I sleep very well knowing that I've no illicit masters to serve.

[hur]

Dear Aftab,

I doubt we have met...but you never know.

"When you agree that most of the Dais were poisoned and you support the dai, is it not than a fair assumption that you support the murderers. Do you see the connection?"

--How...the murderers via poison of most of the Imams, Ayatuallahs, and Dais were relatives or close associate (munafiqs). Imam Hasan was poisoned...I support Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn

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"Your statement that you neither support nor denounce the Dai is a LIE.
What we have seen is a whole load of support and no denunciation – nil, nada."

---based on what? I don't support what you use to denounce the Dai...that is not supporting the Dai...but correcting your understanding of the issue. I have not commented on the correct or incorrect use of raza by the Dai...this is what I cannot denounce or support. I have commented on you and others saying raza is unislamic as a practice.

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Regarding letter 45 of NB..I quote:

Imam Ali writes "..I never expected that you would accept the invitation of a person who invites big officers and rich people and from whose doors poor persons and hungry paupers are turned away rudely. Look carefully into the things which you eat. If there is even a shade of their being obtained unlawfully then throw them away, only eat those things about which you are perfectly certain that they are obtained by honest means."

---Firstly, Imam Ali describes the person and faults of that person that invited Uthman...not Uthman himself. He chides Uthman for accepting the invitation of that rich person, because of the way he became rich.

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"I was referring Najh ul Balaga on the shameless practices of the present dai to collect money from the rich through ziyafats. No I was not referring to Fleecing."

---fleecing (you used the word) means to take something...the Dai was invited to these places or peoples home..correct or not?

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"Your advice is NOT well taken. Learning is never enough and is a journey. So what you are saying is only learned men like the dai is allowed to speak?"

---No I didn't say that. I said you should delve further into the information and ideas your presenting before saying something is wrong or right. It is wrong to chastise someone based on something you think is correct...when in fact it is not. I am saying for you to become more learned about what you speak.

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"I am not surprised at your stance and humility. I guess we are both woven from different threads, you from the thread that allows curses."

---My only comment is that the Imams cursed people (muslims incl.) who did wrong according to Islam.

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"Again, your judgment that I know less than you do is frankly insulting. I am intimately involved with the struggles of Udaipur and reformists in general. I was also quite involved with the main stream Bohras and have strayed away from them. I derive religious inspirations from Dr. Engineer, Dr. Poonawalla, Dr. Hamdani and her daughter Dr. Hamdani, Dr. Sachidina and Dr. Bahmanpuor to name a few."

---I apologize if I insulted you...my statement was based solely on what you have written on Udiapur. I think many of the reformists put an undue glossyness over the events and happenings of and in Udaipur. You would have known of the upheaval of the reformists to the other side. You would have known the plans of the Dai there.

Dr. Engineer I know of from this site. Dr. Poonawalla I know of from his writings. Dr. Sachidina I know of from the controversices in belief versus Ayatullah Seestani (Sahib requested he not teach anymore).

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
I am not a bohra..but a shiah. Though I recognize the qualities and speech of the Dai..as I do Ayatullah Sistani, Mutaharri,etc. Raza is not required in either case to speak to munafiqin or kaffir. I self-regulate myself not to address issues I don't know fully about anyway.

[Average Bohra]

Hur,

In reading your posts, it is evident that context to you is a moving target. Please compare what I said with what you just wrote (exact same thing but sugar-coated). Additionally, it is important for you to define the word "enemy" in the context that you are using the word. If society followed step 2 we would have anarchy.

I must ask you:
If I fail to beat up my enemy first ("fight with your hand", how do I get the guy to talk to me afterword ("fight with your speech"), while he is busy kicking my a** ? and what exactly is "fight with your heart" ?

What does this have to do woth Raza ? I must say if this is how you practice "respect & dignity" I sure as hell don't want to be your enemy !

[Humsafar]

Hur, I know you're a bohra. Your disguise is understandable, and rather practical under the circumstances. You do not want to be ordered to not to come to this site, as Qiyam was. Fair enough. So for you own sake I'll accept you as shiah.

But this makes your position a lot more problematic. You're here not only without raza but also surreptiously. You're burdened with double sin now!!!

[hur]

Dear AB,
Treatment of your enemy was a side topic brought in this discussion as to the treatment of those that go against the Imam.

My description was the three different methods of dealing with an enemy whom you associate with that continually goes against your belief. It is not the order of action.

What you wrote is very different from what I wrote. Please read my post carefully.

Treat your enemy as your friend and maybe he will desist his actions against you. If they continue to be hostile to you fight them physically. If this is not feasable..fight them with your speech. If this is not feasable..fight them with your heart. You are NOT to succomb to them.

[hur]

Dear Humsafar,
If it makes you happy..believe I am a bohra. The fact I actually know something about your community is nothing special. The issues I have spoken about are followed by all shiah. The other info is from my friends and from this site.

Is raza required for a site like this? Last time I checked...writing post on a islamic website would not required it for any shiah? If so..are you a bohra that would also require it? Or is that your premise...to be a bohra and yet deny the practice of raza to avoid this question.

[Humsafar]

Hur,

My happiness is not dependent on anything that may have to do with you. I know you're a bohra not becaue "you know so much about [my] commuinity" but because I KNOW.

Yes, I'm a bohra, and I give a rat's tail about raza. If you think that makes me an un-bohra then I give a rat's tail about that too.

[hur]

Ok Humsafar,
I am glad you know my secret identity. It fits with you theory of me being Qiyam.

I am not sure how you consider yourself a bohra..when you don't associate with the bohra jamat or adhere to their beliefs. Your no different than me calling myself a bohra...outside look in.

If your saying the practices are wrong...then you are in the a reformist to begin with?

[Aftab]

Dear Hur,
--How...the murderers via poison of most of the Imams, Ayatuallahs, and Dais were relatives or close associate (munafiqs). Imam Hasan was poisoned...I support Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------We know who poisoned Imam Hassan, it was not Imam Hussein. If Imam Hussein had poisoned Imam Hassan to attain Imamat than nobody would have believed in Imam Hussein. This is not the case of Taher Saifuddin. He poisoned his predecessor to attain power, so what do you make of him?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------based on what? I don't support what you use to denounce the Dai...that is not supporting the Dai...but correcting your understanding of the issue. I have not commented on the correct or incorrect use of raza by the Dai...this is what I cannot denounce or support. I have commented on you and others saying raza is unislamic as a practice. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ok, let us cut the chase – let us agree on something. Tell us what you denounce of the dai so that we can discuss. You have provided ample support already.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------fleecing (you used the word) means to take something...the Dai was invited to these places or peoples home..correct or not?--------------------------------------------------This is big business for the dai. The amounts for visitation are negotiated – so this is no invitation – this is fleecing.---------------------------------------------------My only comment is that the Imams cursed people (muslims incl.) who did wrong according to Islam.-------------------------------------------------What better example you had about not cursing than that of Imam Ali and Hussein. Ali woke his killer for the Namaz time and Hussein in his last sajda begged god to forgive his killers. How on hack can you justify cursing is beyond me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dr. Engineer I know of from this site. Dr. Poonawalla I know of from his writings. Dr. Sachidina I know of from the controversices in belief versus Ayatullah Seestani (Sahib requested he not teach anymore). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This is not aimed at you but a general comment. Go and search these pearls –scholars who understand Islam and Modernity like Dr. Engineer and Dr. Sachadina. They are a handful and rare to come by. This is Islam’s greatest downfall as our dais and Ayatollahs are silencing them within. If we do not propagate free learning, Islam with all its numbers, wealth and practices will remain insignificant and a third rate entity.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Humsafar,I am not a bohra..but a shiah. Though I recognize the qualities and speech of the Dai..as I do Ayatullah Sistani, Mutaharri,etc. Raza is not required in either case to speak to munafiqin or kaffir. I self-regulate myself not to address issues I don't know fully about anyway.What are the qualities and speech you recognize of the dai. He has hardly written anything of significance and his speeches have no scholarly content. He talks mostly about his father and fills the time with mataam

[Aftab]

Dear Hur,
--How...the murderers via poison of most of the Imams, Ayatuallahs, and Dais were relatives or close associate (munafiqs). Imam Hasan was poisoned...I support Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn
---------------------------------------------
We know who poisoned Imam Hassan, it was not Imam Hussein. If Imam Hussein had poisoned Imam Hassan to attain Imamat than nobody would have believed in Imam Hussein. This is not the case of Taher Saifuddin. He poisoned his predecessor to attain power, so what do you make of him?
----------------------------------------------
based on what? I don't support what you use to denounce the Dai...that is not supporting the Dai...but correcting your understanding of the issue. I have not commented on the correct or incorrect use of raza by the Dai...this is what I cannot denounce or support. I have commented on you and others saying raza is unislamic as a practice.
------------------------------------------------ok, let us cut the chase – let us agree on something. Tell us what you denounce of the dai so that we can discuss. You have provided ample support already.
-------------------------------------------------fleecing (you used the word) means to take something...the Dai was invited to these places or peoples home..correct or not?
--------------------------------------------------This is big business for the dai. The amounts for visitation are negotiated – so this is no invitation – this is fleecing.
-------------------------------------------------My only comment is that the Imams cursed people (muslims incl.) who did wrong according to Islam.
-------------------------------------------------What better example you had about not cursing than that of Imam Ali and Hussein. Ali woke his killer for the Namaz time and Hussein in his last sajda begged god to forgive his killers. How on hack can you justify cursing is beyond me.
-------------------------------------------------Dr. Engineer I know of from this site. Dr. Poonawalla I know of from his writings. Dr. Sachidina I know of from the controversices in belief versus Ayatullah Seestani (Sahib requested he not teach anymore).
-------------------------------------------------This is not aimed at you but a general comment. Go and search these pearls –scholars who understand Islam and Modernity like Dr. Engineer and Dr. Sachadina. They are a handful and rare to come by. This is Islam’s greatest downfall as our dais and Ayatollahs are silencing them within. If we do not propagate free learning, Islam with all its numbers, wealth and practices will remain insignificant and a third rate entity.
------------------------------------------------ Dear Humsafar,I am not a bohra..but a shiah. Though I recognize the qualities and speech of the Dai..as I do Ayatullah Sistani, Mutaharri,etc. Raza is not required in either case to speak to munafiqin or kaffir. I self-regulate myself not to address issues I don't know fully about anyway.What are the qualities and speech you recognize of the dai. He has hardly written anything of significance and his speeches have no scholarly content. He talks mostly about his father and fills the time with mataam

[Average Bohra]

For those who are expecting a post regarding Raza please move on. This post questions Hur's tangential inferences to "enemies" and the context he is using it in, and its relevance to this topic.

Hur,

1. Please define an "enemy" in the context you are throwing around.

2. What exactly is "fight with your heart" ?

3. Why should one "fight them physically" before "fight them with your speech" ? Should it not be the other way around ?

4. Is Raza required for #'s 2 & 3 above ? [ a clever ploy on behalf of AB to bring this discussion back on topic while holding the undefined "enemy" accountable for his / her posts. ]

[Humsafar]

Originally posted by hur:
I am glad you know my secret identity. It fits with you theory of me being Qiyam.

Well that too. I'm sure it's not in your interest that I pursue that theory to its logical conclusion.

[hur]

Humsafar,
Your a strange person. You put as much effort into justifying your beliefs as you do my identity...very little.

You know..let's let you see how it feels.

I think Humsafar, Mumineen, and BB are the same person...just different names. You all think alike..you pose the same questions over and over again...and none can base their beliefs on anything Islamic.

Run that in the mixer for little while and see what come out!