Dear Aftab,
"This is not the case of Taher Saifuddin. He poisoned his predecessor to attain power, so what do you make of him?"
---How do you know this..what information did you get this from?
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"ok, let us cut the chase – let us agree on something. Tell us what you denounce of the dai so that we can discuss. You have provided ample support already."
---Actually I have only supported what I have heard and seen of him. You may consider this limited. I have many of the denouncing statements and occurances on this web site and from my friends who are reformists. The problem I have with these arguments is their Islamic bases. The story line itself I have to talk with a grain of salt (and this applies to both sides) because it is almost always second hand hearsay without details or only half the story. For instance..Dai Saifuddin was quoted as saying he was god in court...according to a friend of mine..the phrase was taken out of context from the court record...the Dai never said this.
Same thing I heard of story of a bohra mullah who raped a girl in Jamnager. My reformists friend blamed the Dai for posting him. When the other side is heard...the mullah was beaten and excommucated for his actions.
It is for this reason I have argued ONLY LIMITED my responses to the basis of the faults...not the actual events themselves.
-------------------------------------------------
"This is big business for the dai. The amounts for visitation are negotiated – so this is no invitation – this is fleecing."
---The problem I am having is the Dai coming to these people's home with a gun at hand. The scenario you describe doesn't seem realistic.
-------------------------------------------------What better example you had about not cursing than that of Imam Ali and Hussein. Ali woke his killer for the Namaz time and Hussein in his last sajda begged god to forgive his killers. How on hack can you justify cursing is beyond me.
---I justify by the statement of the Imams themselves. Imam Ali cursed the followers of Muwaiya who didn't repent. Imam Jafar Sadiq cursed the munafiqin in hadith. You can make Islamic decree on your determination of certain actions.
-------------------------------------------------
"This is not aimed at you but a general comment. Go and search these pearls –scholars who understand Islam and Modernity like Dr. Engineer and Dr. Sachadina. They are a handful and rare to come by. This is Islam’s greatest downfall as our dais and Ayatollahs are silencing them within. If we do not propagate free learning, Islam with all its numbers, wealth and practices will remain insignificant and a third rate entity.
---While I am not familiar with all the writer specifically mentioned..the two I greatly question. Dr. Sachandina was repremanded for teaching incorrect usul at University of Toronto by Ayatuallah Sistani. A letter was published to the local jamats there of this. And writings of Dr. Engineer are far from Shiah inducive. His basis of Shiah history and fiqh is very skewed.
-----------------------------------------------
"What are the qualities and speech you recognize of the dai. He has hardly written anything of significance and his speeches have no scholarly content. He talks mostly about his father and fills the time with mataam."
--the fact that you only have gotten that from his speeches, duas, munajats, etc. explain why you think the way you do. I would ask you to look closer.
Raza
Re: Raza
I'm honoured to be identified with Mumineen and BB. I wish it were true.
Like I said, it's not in your interest that I pursue my theory....
As for Islamic beliefs, the less you talk about them the better it is, because all you do is pervert Islamic beliefs to serve your masters.
For example take these two concepts: Raza and charity.
Raza is nowhere mentioned in the Quran - you justify it on the basis of sunnah (while conveniently ignoring other sunnah, such as the prophet's simple life) and assign it paramount importance. Raza is fine and in fact desirable as a means of respecting and honouring ones elders. You don't need the Quran or sunnah to teach you that - it is the cultural thing. (African tribes, for example, have profound respect for their ancestors and have numerous rituals to honour them.) But your masters have institutionalised raza and turned it into a bureaucratic system to keep bohra slaves on leash.
Now, charity. It has been repeatedly mentioned in the Quran. It is central to Quranic belief. The Quran says (if I remember it correctly) that your prayers won't be accepted if you pray while your neighbours go hungry. Thus the Quran accords a greater degree of importance to charity than even salah. How come your masters do not talk about charity - leave alone insist upon it as vehemently as they do about raza? In fact, the "royal family" lives on the charity of bohras.
Your masters are rich "beyond dreams of avarice" (no average joher can buy Cama House in Bombay) - tell me how much they give in charity. How much did they give to Gujarat earthquake victims or to tsunami victims? Have you any idea how bohras live in Bombay's slums. They are more deserving of your masters charity (by quranic sanction) than your masters are entitled to their raza (which has no quranic sanction).
Can't you see the hypocrisy, duplicity and double standards of your masters? Can't you see your own miserable position that you have to justify their actions? And then you have the cheek to say that we have not Islamic basis to our beliefs.
Like I said, it's not in your interest that I pursue my theory....
As for Islamic beliefs, the less you talk about them the better it is, because all you do is pervert Islamic beliefs to serve your masters.
For example take these two concepts: Raza and charity.
Raza is nowhere mentioned in the Quran - you justify it on the basis of sunnah (while conveniently ignoring other sunnah, such as the prophet's simple life) and assign it paramount importance. Raza is fine and in fact desirable as a means of respecting and honouring ones elders. You don't need the Quran or sunnah to teach you that - it is the cultural thing. (African tribes, for example, have profound respect for their ancestors and have numerous rituals to honour them.) But your masters have institutionalised raza and turned it into a bureaucratic system to keep bohra slaves on leash.
Now, charity. It has been repeatedly mentioned in the Quran. It is central to Quranic belief. The Quran says (if I remember it correctly) that your prayers won't be accepted if you pray while your neighbours go hungry. Thus the Quran accords a greater degree of importance to charity than even salah. How come your masters do not talk about charity - leave alone insist upon it as vehemently as they do about raza? In fact, the "royal family" lives on the charity of bohras.
Your masters are rich "beyond dreams of avarice" (no average joher can buy Cama House in Bombay) - tell me how much they give in charity. How much did they give to Gujarat earthquake victims or to tsunami victims? Have you any idea how bohras live in Bombay's slums. They are more deserving of your masters charity (by quranic sanction) than your masters are entitled to their raza (which has no quranic sanction).
Can't you see the hypocrisy, duplicity and double standards of your masters? Can't you see your own miserable position that you have to justify their actions? And then you have the cheek to say that we have not Islamic basis to our beliefs.
Re: Raza
Latest on raza:
I have been told that Amil of Atlanta has sent an email to jamaat members telling them to seek his raza if they wish to attend the niyaz following iftar of today's Ghadeer-e-Khum fast.
A new demand, surely. Only those arranging Niyaz, I thought, needed Raza. Not those who wish to partake of the food.
Has this been applied to other Jamaats, I wonder!!
I have been told that Amil of Atlanta has sent an email to jamaat members telling them to seek his raza if they wish to attend the niyaz following iftar of today's Ghadeer-e-Khum fast.
A new demand, surely. Only those arranging Niyaz, I thought, needed Raza. Not those who wish to partake of the food.
Has this been applied to other Jamaats, I wonder!!
Re: Raza
Porous,
I am not sure .... this f****** Raza is becoming to much of hassle - in the name of Raza they want to control the 'breathing' of their 'subjects' too. Who the f*** is an amil, a mere cheap servant of a thug sitting in Mumbai ..!!!! they want to control the 'lives' - tomorrow they will ask to seek raza for bloody eating, sleeping, shitting too ..... may they will ask subjects to seek raza for having inter***** too ...!!!!!
The more power they get, more they want, the more moeny they get, more they want, more fools surrender, more and more they want ....
Bohras are the slaves of servants of burhan.
I am not sure .... this f****** Raza is becoming to much of hassle - in the name of Raza they want to control the 'breathing' of their 'subjects' too. Who the f*** is an amil, a mere cheap servant of a thug sitting in Mumbai ..!!!! they want to control the 'lives' - tomorrow they will ask to seek raza for bloody eating, sleeping, shitting too ..... may they will ask subjects to seek raza for having inter***** too ...!!!!!
The more power they get, more they want, the more moeny they get, more they want, more fools surrender, more and more they want ....
Bohras are the slaves of servants of burhan.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
Firstly, it angers me for you to keep refering to others as my master. You don't know me or my masters..so please hold your critiques.
You've switched from wanting raza defined as "islamic" to it being "quranic".
"As for Islamic beliefs, the less you talk about them the better it is, because all you do is pervert Islamic beliefs to serve your masters."
--Was it you ranting and raving of how this is NOT islamic and that is NOT islamic..WHEN IN FACT YOU WERE COMPLETING WRONG. When will you stop perverting the minds of others by talking as though you know something about Islamic beliefs to judge.
"Raza is nowhere mentioned in the Quran - you justify it on the basis of sunnah (while conveniently ignoring other sunnah, such as the prophet's simple life) and assign it paramount importance."
---The Prophet, Imam Ali, etc all had simple lives. Was raza less important because of it? Your new justification is it not being stated in the Quran...well your wrong. Quran gives many example of Allah requiring us to ask of our elders, leaders, and the Prophet. No..the word permission is not..though Surah Nur verse 13 does..."But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): thus does Allah make clear His Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." This refers to times of day that your family should not come near you in verse 12.
However the thing I have always said is that it is the sunnah...not a pillar of islam. Raza is not equivalent to zakat or salat or hajj. I never said is should be. Sadaqah is a sunnah and is good for you. How much better it is than raza is not for us to decide. Both are sunnah. Is sadaqah better than zakat?? No zakat is required...yet Allah mentions sadaqah far more in the Quran than zakat. Allah even defines sadaqah..yet not zakat..nor salat..nor hajj.
So what is your point?
Firstly, it angers me for you to keep refering to others as my master. You don't know me or my masters..so please hold your critiques.
You've switched from wanting raza defined as "islamic" to it being "quranic".
"As for Islamic beliefs, the less you talk about them the better it is, because all you do is pervert Islamic beliefs to serve your masters."
--Was it you ranting and raving of how this is NOT islamic and that is NOT islamic..WHEN IN FACT YOU WERE COMPLETING WRONG. When will you stop perverting the minds of others by talking as though you know something about Islamic beliefs to judge.
"Raza is nowhere mentioned in the Quran - you justify it on the basis of sunnah (while conveniently ignoring other sunnah, such as the prophet's simple life) and assign it paramount importance."
---The Prophet, Imam Ali, etc all had simple lives. Was raza less important because of it? Your new justification is it not being stated in the Quran...well your wrong. Quran gives many example of Allah requiring us to ask of our elders, leaders, and the Prophet. No..the word permission is not..though Surah Nur verse 13 does..."But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): thus does Allah make clear His Signs to you: for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." This refers to times of day that your family should not come near you in verse 12.
However the thing I have always said is that it is the sunnah...not a pillar of islam. Raza is not equivalent to zakat or salat or hajj. I never said is should be. Sadaqah is a sunnah and is good for you. How much better it is than raza is not for us to decide. Both are sunnah. Is sadaqah better than zakat?? No zakat is required...yet Allah mentions sadaqah far more in the Quran than zakat. Allah even defines sadaqah..yet not zakat..nor salat..nor hajj.
So what is your point?
Re: Raza
Hur:
I am neither a "Humsafar" nor a "BB". I am a Mumineen" - a spiritual seeker.
Ibn Battuta travelled the Muslim world looking for answers. Like this famous traveler, and although I am not famous, I am probably also looking for or seeking answers and have also found myself wandering through the world of Islam. The spiritual realm of Islam particularly appeals to me. I am probably toying with the idea of Sufism and may enjoy reading mystic poets such as Rumi or Hafez. For me, Islam is a state of being that leads to my ultimate connection to Allah through my submission to the Almighty. Although Islam often guides me on many practical questions, I am more likely than not looking to connect to Allah Almighty others on a more spiritual level. Many of the social regulations or rules of Islam may seem daunting and unnecessary. I continue to have questions, as well as faith.
I don't think I am a Progressive either.
If you are a Progressive, you are a devout believer in God, and Islam is your direct path to Him. You understand Islam mainly through your intellect. You probably interpret Islam historically and might believe that ijtihad should be reopened. You have probably gone through years of questioning to come to the understanding of Islam that you have now. You might receive criticism for what are perceived as your open views.
My above analysis has also been confirmed by communicating with a traditional Muslim whom I respect.
Peace.
I am neither a "Humsafar" nor a "BB". I am a Mumineen" - a spiritual seeker.
Ibn Battuta travelled the Muslim world looking for answers. Like this famous traveler, and although I am not famous, I am probably also looking for or seeking answers and have also found myself wandering through the world of Islam. The spiritual realm of Islam particularly appeals to me. I am probably toying with the idea of Sufism and may enjoy reading mystic poets such as Rumi or Hafez. For me, Islam is a state of being that leads to my ultimate connection to Allah through my submission to the Almighty. Although Islam often guides me on many practical questions, I am more likely than not looking to connect to Allah Almighty others on a more spiritual level. Many of the social regulations or rules of Islam may seem daunting and unnecessary. I continue to have questions, as well as faith.
I don't think I am a Progressive either.
If you are a Progressive, you are a devout believer in God, and Islam is your direct path to Him. You understand Islam mainly through your intellect. You probably interpret Islam historically and might believe that ijtihad should be reopened. You have probably gone through years of questioning to come to the understanding of Islam that you have now. You might receive criticism for what are perceived as your open views.
My above analysis has also been confirmed by communicating with a traditional Muslim whom I respect.
Peace.
Re: Raza
Hur,
Now stop splitting hairs between "Islamic" and "Quranic". Raza is neither.
The surah you quote cannot be interpreted - by any stretch of the imagination - to mean the bureaucratic system of raza that your masters have established.
And pls answer this question: Why do your masters place more importance on raza (not a pillar or Islam) than on charity (which Quran rates as more important than prayers)?
Now stop splitting hairs between "Islamic" and "Quranic". Raza is neither.
The surah you quote cannot be interpreted - by any stretch of the imagination - to mean the bureaucratic system of raza that your masters have established.
And pls answer this question: Why do your masters place more importance on raza (not a pillar or Islam) than on charity (which Quran rates as more important than prayers)?
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
Now were back to raza not being "Islamic" either?!
And if you notice...I stated the "word" wasn't in the Quran...but its pretense is very much in the Quran. The idea of asking an authority for permission is describes and displayed in the Quran.
Islam when under the position of a leader is "bureaucratic"...from raza to the collection of zakat.
Is raza more important than sadaqah? I don't know...while Allah says alot about giving charity and helping others in the Quran...He also says alot about obeying the Prophet and those of knowledge (the Imams).
Does it make a difference? Both are required by them being sunnah so I judge them equally.
"Why do your masters place more importance on raza (not a pillar or Islam) than on charity (which Quran rates as more important than prayers)?"
---Firstly...who are my "masters"? Secondly, I think it is your opinion of it being more important than charity. Thirdly, where in the Quran is charity rated more important than prayers?
Now were back to raza not being "Islamic" either?!
And if you notice...I stated the "word" wasn't in the Quran...but its pretense is very much in the Quran. The idea of asking an authority for permission is describes and displayed in the Quran.
Islam when under the position of a leader is "bureaucratic"...from raza to the collection of zakat.
Is raza more important than sadaqah? I don't know...while Allah says alot about giving charity and helping others in the Quran...He also says alot about obeying the Prophet and those of knowledge (the Imams).
Does it make a difference? Both are required by them being sunnah so I judge them equally.
"Why do your masters place more importance on raza (not a pillar or Islam) than on charity (which Quran rates as more important than prayers)?"
---Firstly...who are my "masters"? Secondly, I think it is your opinion of it being more important than charity. Thirdly, where in the Quran is charity rated more important than prayers?
Re: Raza
That is your wishful and preconceived idea.Originally posted by hur:
The idea of asking an authority for permission is describes and displayed in the Quran.
"BUREAUCRATIC" explains it all as to why the imaams, the dais, the syedenas, the mullahs, the sheikhs, the baisahebs, the aamils, etc., enforce petty and unimaginable rules to dictate the un-Islamic.Islam when under the position of a leader is "bureaucratic"...from raza to the collection of zakat.
Sadaqah obviously carries more weight than raza, simply because one doesn't need raza to give sadaqah. On the same lines, one doesn't need permission (raza) of any authority in order to read, study, understand, contemplate and obey and act upon the commands as ordained in the Quran. Remember, one of the most important command of the Quran is: "you are responsible for your own soul" and "none can guide except GOD". It is insane to take permission from another human to obey and act upon the Quran when that same command equally applies to all, regardless to stature. One can only learn and reflect from the other without the need of permissions.Is raza more important than sadaqah? I don't know...while Allah says alot about giving charity and helping others in the Quran...He also says alot about obeying the Prophet and those of knowledge (the Imams).
Yes, a huge difference. Sadaqah is what you do for others in need while raza is a cowardly grant authoritatively influential.Does it make a difference? Both are required by them being sunnah so I judge them equally.
Re: Raza
Your masters are the "royal family" - either you are one of them or a hireling. Because only an insider or a hired hack would stoop so low as to publicly support and defend a corrupt, petty and perverse priesthood as you do.
---Firstly...who are my "masters"?
No, it is not my opinion. Raza is not mentioned even once in the Quran, but sadaqah is mentioned several times. Even a moron can figure out what is more important.
Secondly, I think it is your opinion of it being more important than charity.
Here: "Have you seen him who denies the religion? He is the one who harshly rebuffs the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who pray, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off." (Surat al-Ma'un: 1-6)
Thirdly, where in the Quran is charity rated more important than prayers?
Re: Raza
Dear Danish,
Nice to see you surprisingly chime in.
Dear Humsafar,
"Your masters are the "royal family" - either you are one of them or a hireling. Because only an insider or a hired hack would stoop so low as to publicly support and defend a corrupt, petty and perverse priesthood as you do. "
---Where did I support/denounce the priesthood??? Yes, I support the raza as a shiah concept...and by your examples express if they were valid or not. But it is you that said raza was UNISLAMIC...WHICH IT IS NOT. It is your opinion if what the mullahs do or not...I have not commented on.
"No, it is not my opinion. Raza is not mentioned even once in the Quran, but sadaqah is mentioned several times. Even a moron can figure out what is more important."
---To be in the Quran or not (by words)...doesn't make something ISLAMIC. The sunnah is defined by the actions and speech of the Prophet. Imam Jafar Sadiq said taqiyah (hiddening one's beliefs when in danger) is iman itself. Taqiyah is not mentioned in the Quran..yet is higher than sadaqah and raza.
"Have you seen him who denies the religion? He is the one who harshly rebuffs the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who pray, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off." (Surat al-Ma'un: 1-6)"
---Allah chastises those who are hard on orphans, don't feed the poor, those who forget their prayer, and show off. So where is charity more important to give then prayer?
Nice to see you surprisingly chime in.
Dear Humsafar,
"Your masters are the "royal family" - either you are one of them or a hireling. Because only an insider or a hired hack would stoop so low as to publicly support and defend a corrupt, petty and perverse priesthood as you do. "
---Where did I support/denounce the priesthood??? Yes, I support the raza as a shiah concept...and by your examples express if they were valid or not. But it is you that said raza was UNISLAMIC...WHICH IT IS NOT. It is your opinion if what the mullahs do or not...I have not commented on.
"No, it is not my opinion. Raza is not mentioned even once in the Quran, but sadaqah is mentioned several times. Even a moron can figure out what is more important."
---To be in the Quran or not (by words)...doesn't make something ISLAMIC. The sunnah is defined by the actions and speech of the Prophet. Imam Jafar Sadiq said taqiyah (hiddening one's beliefs when in danger) is iman itself. Taqiyah is not mentioned in the Quran..yet is higher than sadaqah and raza.
"Have you seen him who denies the religion? He is the one who harshly rebuffs the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who pray, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off." (Surat al-Ma'un: 1-6)"
---Allah chastises those who are hard on orphans, don't feed the poor, those who forget their prayer, and show off. So where is charity more important to give then prayer?
Re: Raza
You support all the policies and practices of the priesthood - but of course you don't support the priesthood. (You crack meeee up. George Orwell would be impressed.) This is like someone saying that he believes in the supremacy of the Aryan race, in extermination of Jews and gypsies but does not support the Nazis. It is like saying, I believe in pre-emptive strikes, invading Iraq, supporting Israel against Palestinians, supporting tax cuts for the rich etc. etc. but I certainly do not support Bush and his neo-cons.Where did I support/denounce the priesthood??? Yes, I support the raza as a shiah concept...and by your examples express if they were valid or not. But it is you that said raza was UNISLAMIC...WHICH IT IS NOT. It is your opinion if what the mullahs do or not...I have not commented on.
What!! So, the Quran has nothing to do with what might be "Islamic" or not.To be in the Quran or not (by words)...doesn't make something ISLAMIC.
So, what is NOT mentioned in the Quran is more important than that which is mentioned in the Quran. What Imam Jafar asSadiq said is more important than what the Prophet said. So, Imam Sadiq has higher status than the Prophet, and the Prophet has primacy over the Quran (the very word of God).The sunnah is defined by the actions and speech of the Prophet. Imam Jafar Sadiq said taqiyah (hiddening one's beliefs when in danger) is iman itself. Taqiyah is not mentioned in the Quran..yet is higher than sadaqah and raza.
Read the ayah carefully. You only got a part of the meaning. The key words are "So woe to those who pray" and show off but do not care to help the poor and needy. People guilty of this - empty prayers - deny the very religion."Have you seen him who denies the religion? He is the one who harshly rebuffs the orphan and does not urge the feeding of the poor. So woe to those who pray, and are forgetful of their prayer, those who show off." (Surat al-Ma'un: 1-6)"
---Allah chastises those who are hard on orphans, don't feed the poor, those who forget their prayer, and show off. So where is charity more important to give then prayer?
Dear Hur, can't you see how absurd you're getting with every post. I can only bring the horse to the water. I can't make it drink it.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
I have commented on the practice and it autheticity in Islam...I have not commented on how it is used. There is a huge difference that you don't seem to get.
And your analogies on raza are not a comparision of what I have written. The equivalent to what I have written is that muslims should pay zakat...but not be beaten for not paying. All the examples you gave have starting points that are bad to begin with. Raza is a correct Prophetic practice.
"What!! So, the Quran has nothing to do with what might be "Islamic" or not."
---this is not at all what I wrote or meant. A majority of the rituals we practice are not mentioned in the Quran. These practices were explained in detail by the Prophet and Imams. This is why Allah tell us to obey Allah and His Messenger.
"So, what is NOT mentioned in the Quran is more important than that which is mentioned in the Quran. What Imam Jafar asSadiq said is more important than what the Prophet said. So, Imam Sadiq has higher status than the Prophet, and the Prophet has primacy over the Quran (the very word of God)."
--No, I also did write or mean what you wrote again! I wrote that things that are mentioned in the Quran are important...just as things mentioned by the Prophet are important. There is no difference in level of importantance. This is something you have implied. Taqiyah was mentioned by the Prophet and clarified by the Imam. Just as the Quran mentions Hajj and the Prophet clarified the practice of it. As a believer, everything the Prophet did was just as important as what the Quran says. There is no difference. Quran and sunnah.
Dear Humsafar...I don't want to get into a naming call contest...but half the stuff you write is your opinion or interpretation of what is written or might be written...and not actually what is written.
"The key words are "So woe to those who pray" and show off but do not care to help the poor and needy. People guilty of this - empty prayers - deny the very religion."
---If you read the surah ma'un CAREFULLY...its doesn't say if you are harsh to the orphan or don't feed the poor, then your salat is empty. It says your prayer is empty if you pray just to show off to others. If fact the surah is a warning to the muslim if they do any of these items, that these are all signs of those who deny the Judgement and religion.
I have commented on the practice and it autheticity in Islam...I have not commented on how it is used. There is a huge difference that you don't seem to get.
And your analogies on raza are not a comparision of what I have written. The equivalent to what I have written is that muslims should pay zakat...but not be beaten for not paying. All the examples you gave have starting points that are bad to begin with. Raza is a correct Prophetic practice.
"What!! So, the Quran has nothing to do with what might be "Islamic" or not."
---this is not at all what I wrote or meant. A majority of the rituals we practice are not mentioned in the Quran. These practices were explained in detail by the Prophet and Imams. This is why Allah tell us to obey Allah and His Messenger.
"So, what is NOT mentioned in the Quran is more important than that which is mentioned in the Quran. What Imam Jafar asSadiq said is more important than what the Prophet said. So, Imam Sadiq has higher status than the Prophet, and the Prophet has primacy over the Quran (the very word of God)."
--No, I also did write or mean what you wrote again! I wrote that things that are mentioned in the Quran are important...just as things mentioned by the Prophet are important. There is no difference in level of importantance. This is something you have implied. Taqiyah was mentioned by the Prophet and clarified by the Imam. Just as the Quran mentions Hajj and the Prophet clarified the practice of it. As a believer, everything the Prophet did was just as important as what the Quran says. There is no difference. Quran and sunnah.
Dear Humsafar...I don't want to get into a naming call contest...but half the stuff you write is your opinion or interpretation of what is written or might be written...and not actually what is written.
"The key words are "So woe to those who pray" and show off but do not care to help the poor and needy. People guilty of this - empty prayers - deny the very religion."
---If you read the surah ma'un CAREFULLY...its doesn't say if you are harsh to the orphan or don't feed the poor, then your salat is empty. It says your prayer is empty if you pray just to show off to others. If fact the surah is a warning to the muslim if they do any of these items, that these are all signs of those who deny the Judgement and religion.
Re: Raza
so many opinions about what the Quran says and how its interpreted. The Quran was written in those days, and under those circumstances. It is also a document that can be interpreted in any nr.of ways I ofcourse do not have any proof nor do I have any knowledge, but by following all this discussion, and I am sure all of you are having your honest opinion, the conclution is, that Quran can be translated in many ways.Even the learned people cannot agree, so who are we to judge others? Let GOD be the judge.Let us be humble, respect each other and do the best for ALL people, irrespective of what they belive o what their GOD is.
Re: Raza
What you are saying is that you only comment on theology not how it is used. In other words, you prefer to sit in your ivory tower and cogitate on esoteric issues but would not dirty your hands by dealing with the ground reality - as to how your pristine scriptures are being pressed into the service of power, control and greed.Originally posted by hur:
I have commented on the practice and it autheticity in Islam...I have not commented on how it is used. There is a huge difference that you don't seem to get.
You have defended raza (unconvincingly to me at least) as one of THE CENTRAL tenets of Islam. But for argument's sake let's accept that to be so. Now lets see how it is being used - by the bohra clergy. There is a distinct hierarchy of raza from Dai downward to the local amil. The logic being that the authority of Dai devolves down to this amil. So asking Amil's raza is like asking Dai's raza. Fair enough.
Now the question is, for what purposes should a bohra seek raza. This is important because we need to understand its use in the light of your doctrinal interpretation.
Further, what if I do not ask for raza for, let's say, Qurbani? What happens then? What are the implications? Will it not be accepted by Allah? Or does it amount to challenging the authority of the Amil?
And again, you say that the majority of Muslims who do not care about raza are "incorrect". In other words, this "incorrectness" amounts to violation of one of the central tenets (according to you) of Islam. So it would mean that the majority of Muslims are not even Muslims.
Please answer these questions. The alibi that "I have not commented on how it is used" will not do. That's an excuse of a quisling.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
I respond to the theological point for two reason..none have to do with an ivory tower.
1.) You guys lack the theological background of the statements you make. You say something is wrong based on it being "unislamic"...when it is clearly "islamic". The basis of your argument is typically NOT because something is done incorrectly but that it is wrong completely. I hope you see the difference.
2.) I get conflicting interpretation of the stories you and my reformist friends present versus the orthodox bohra and my ortho friends. None of them can verify any story being completely correct. So does one decide??
I have not said raza is a central tenet of Islam. I said it is the sunnah of Prophet and for a believer (mumin)..the sunnah is required. It is by no means equivalent to zakat, salat, etc. Others don't consider the sunnah or certains traditions required. Remember, to be a muslim means to believe in the ONE GOD and acknowledge the tenets of the religion. Doesn't mean you will practice them...but the you believe that they are correct. By not practicing them doesn't make you a kaffir...but a sinner. This is a muslim.
When you don't ask for raza for something..you are dishonoring the role of Imamate. I cannot comment on Allah decision..He may or may not accept it...it is a risk you take. Offending the amil should be the least of your worries. There are many amils who are incorrect. Doesn't mean you just offend his position because of it.
To seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. No the amil is not the Imam...but you must remember..that's not the reason you seek the raza in the first place.
For example: you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
I respond to the theological point for two reason..none have to do with an ivory tower.
1.) You guys lack the theological background of the statements you make. You say something is wrong based on it being "unislamic"...when it is clearly "islamic". The basis of your argument is typically NOT because something is done incorrectly but that it is wrong completely. I hope you see the difference.
2.) I get conflicting interpretation of the stories you and my reformist friends present versus the orthodox bohra and my ortho friends. None of them can verify any story being completely correct. So does one decide??
I have not said raza is a central tenet of Islam. I said it is the sunnah of Prophet and for a believer (mumin)..the sunnah is required. It is by no means equivalent to zakat, salat, etc. Others don't consider the sunnah or certains traditions required. Remember, to be a muslim means to believe in the ONE GOD and acknowledge the tenets of the religion. Doesn't mean you will practice them...but the you believe that they are correct. By not practicing them doesn't make you a kaffir...but a sinner. This is a muslim.
When you don't ask for raza for something..you are dishonoring the role of Imamate. I cannot comment on Allah decision..He may or may not accept it...it is a risk you take. Offending the amil should be the least of your worries. There are many amils who are incorrect. Doesn't mean you just offend his position because of it.
To seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. No the amil is not the Imam...but you must remember..that's not the reason you seek the raza in the first place.
For example: you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
Agreed...Amen !you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
Hur,
Why then is a Raza for prime reserved spots during prayers in a mosque given to "Sheiks" ? Couldn't one reasonable conclude then that the knowledge of the Imam you speak of is questionable and therefore a false premise for justification of the Raza concept ?
Re: Raza
Dear Brother
I have not said raza is a central tenet of Islam. I said it is the sunnah of Prophet and for a believer (mumin)..the sunnah is required.
Well Said,Sunnah is required but not a must..if one does not follow the sunnah he is not a kafir right.that means if one does not keep beared you can not force him to do it similarly Raza is Sunnah and its required but not a must .if one does not take raza you can not force him to take....but in our community if you don't take Raza of Aamil you CAN NOT bury the Dead,you can not take Taaziyat of deceased,you can not have feast of Aqiqa,Marriage etc.
When you don't ask for raza for something..you are dishonoring the role of Imamate. I cannot comment on Allah decision..He may or may not accept it...it is a risk you take.
if they are taking a risk whats your problem let them take the risk its upto person to take the risk.why you force him to take Raza.
For example: you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
Please tell this to all your Kotharis who are selling front row of mosque for a good price and tell this to uneducated bohris who are paying money for "Massalla ni jagah" in Mosque.
I have not said raza is a central tenet of Islam. I said it is the sunnah of Prophet and for a believer (mumin)..the sunnah is required.
Well Said,Sunnah is required but not a must..if one does not follow the sunnah he is not a kafir right.that means if one does not keep beared you can not force him to do it similarly Raza is Sunnah and its required but not a must .if one does not take raza you can not force him to take....but in our community if you don't take Raza of Aamil you CAN NOT bury the Dead,you can not take Taaziyat of deceased,you can not have feast of Aqiqa,Marriage etc.
When you don't ask for raza for something..you are dishonoring the role of Imamate. I cannot comment on Allah decision..He may or may not accept it...it is a risk you take.
if they are taking a risk whats your problem let them take the risk its upto person to take the risk.why you force him to take Raza.
For example: you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
Please tell this to all your Kotharis who are selling front row of mosque for a good price and tell this to uneducated bohris who are paying money for "Massalla ni jagah" in Mosque.
Re: Raza
I'll take up these points later - in a separate thread. But for now let's concentrate on raza.I respond to the theological point for two reason..none have to do with an ivory tower.
1.) You guys lack the theological background of the statements you make. You say something is wrong based on it being "unislamic"...when it is clearly "islamic". The basis of your argument is typically NOT because something is done incorrectly but that it is wrong completely. I hope you see the difference.
2.) I get conflicting interpretation of the stories you and my reformist friends present versus the orthodox bohra and my ortho friends. None of them can verify any story being completely correct. So does one decide??
You say raza is required for a believer, but the majority of believers choose to ignore this particular sunnah. But since others don't consider the sunnah (i.e. raza), it would mean it is not obligatory. And we know that not all sunnah is obligatory or binding. However in an earlier post you insisted that there is no difference between the Quran and sunnah : As a believer, everything the Prophet did was just as important as what the Quran says. There is no difference. Quran and sunnah.I have not said raza is a central tenet of Islam. I said it is the sunnah of Prophet and for a believer (mumin)..the sunnah is required. It is by no means equivalent to zakat, salat, etc. Others don't consider the sunnah or certains traditions required.
But let that pass.
Let's assume, for argument's sake, that the sunnah of raza is obligatory. This would mean the majority of Muslims are sinners (by your definition). This brings us to the next point:Remember, to be a muslim means to believe in the ONE GOD and acknowledge the tenets of the religion. Doesn't mean you will practice them...but the you believe that they are correct. By not practicing them doesn't make you a kaffir...but a sinner. This is a Muslim.
Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate". Can you also explain the shift in focus from the Prophet's sunnah to the "role of Imamate"?When you don't ask for raza for something..you are dishonoring the role of Imamate.
As for asking for raza, let's say I want to do a qurbani, whose raza should I ask so that by seeking raza I may fulfill all doctrinal requirements?
Quite correct. Since not all sunnah is obligatory, and that He has nothing to do with sunnah (remember his word is the Quran) Allah would be least interested in how believers follow the sunnah.I cannot comment on Allah decision..He may or may not accept it...it is a risk you take.
True. But as a Bohra that is the biggest of my worries. It's the Amil and the higher-ups who are offended when I do not ask for raza. I'm reprimanded, refused safai chchitthi, humiliated, even ex-communicated and then made to apologise, give misaaq - the whole routine.Offending the amil should be the least of your worries. There are many amils who are incorrect. Doesn't mean you just offend his position because of it.
So would you agree then that it is wrong and incorrect for the Amil and higher-ups to get mad at me when I don't ask for raza? Because, as you say:
Agreed. But when a Bohra goes to ask for raza all he/she wants to do is accomplish a particular religious/social task. Seeking "acceptance and knowledge of the Imam" is the last thing on their minds. Let's assume that they know what they are doing, does it mean then that seeking an Amil's raza is equivalent to seeking "acceptance and knowledge of the Imam"?To seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. No the amil is not the Imam...but you must remember..that's not the reason you seek the raza in the first place.
Can you pls explain what is "the reason you seek the raza in the first place" for? Is it different from seeking "acceptance and knowledge of the Imam"?
I agree with you, but what's your point? Are you trying to say that what IS important is that I seek raza, and NOT whose raza I seek?For example: you pray salat in a run down building or you pray salat in a magnificent mosque. Does care WHERE you prayed? No..he cares that you prayed.
One last thing, you failed to answer my question from my previous post: "for what purposes should a bohra seek raza?" It would be good if you could enumerate the specific instances.
Re: Raza
Dear Avg. Bohra,
I'm am not sure what you mean by reserved. I myself have prayed in this front row when I prayed with bohras. Maybe they got there first?
Dear BB,
"Sunnah is required but not a must"
---The sunnah is required...no one will say it is not. It is a sin not to adhere to the sunnah. In a islamic government it would (to a degree) be enforced. Majority of the islamic communities requires the adherence of the sunnah..but do not enforce its adherence because they have no mechanism to do so. It is more of what your community considers most important and effects the community and its operation directly.
Part and parcel of not taking raza is not gaining the permission of your Imam (through the amil). If you feel this has nothing to do with the Imam or Dai or amil...than it is up to you. But at this point, you are not adhering to basic concepts of your bohra faith...correct? Last time I check..no one puts a gun to you head to do anything. But raza is there...some use is wrongly..some use it correctly. You can bury your dead anywhere in the world...but it is without the raza of the Imam at that point. This is your risk. The bohra community holds this tradition as a sign of adherence to the community.
I'm am not sure what you mean by reserved. I myself have prayed in this front row when I prayed with bohras. Maybe they got there first?
Dear BB,
"Sunnah is required but not a must"
---The sunnah is required...no one will say it is not. It is a sin not to adhere to the sunnah. In a islamic government it would (to a degree) be enforced. Majority of the islamic communities requires the adherence of the sunnah..but do not enforce its adherence because they have no mechanism to do so. It is more of what your community considers most important and effects the community and its operation directly.
Part and parcel of not taking raza is not gaining the permission of your Imam (through the amil). If you feel this has nothing to do with the Imam or Dai or amil...than it is up to you. But at this point, you are not adhering to basic concepts of your bohra faith...correct? Last time I check..no one puts a gun to you head to do anything. But raza is there...some use is wrongly..some use it correctly. You can bury your dead anywhere in the world...but it is without the raza of the Imam at that point. This is your risk. The bohra community holds this tradition as a sign of adherence to the community.
Re: Raza
Dear Humsafar,
"You say raza is required for a believer, but the majority of believers choose to ignore this particular sunnah."
--a believer is a mumin...a submitter to the faith is a muslim. A believer enacts all the Quranic and sunnah injuctions to the best of their ability..or at least doesn't deny them as not true. All sunnah IS obligatory. It is what is considered sunnah that is the question. Shiah consider raza the sunnah..because of the rights of the Imam.
"Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate". Can you also explain the shift in focus from the Prophet's sunnah to the "role of Imamate"?"
---It is not a shift..remember the Prophet was first and foremost the Imam..then Nabi then Rasul. He, above all, had the same rights that should be given to any Imam.
"As for asking for raza, let's say I want to do a qurbani, whose raza should I ask so that by seeking raza I may fulfill all doctrinal requirements?"
---Who is your Imam? If in ghaybat like the shiahs..it is his representative. Some have ayatuallahs, others have shiekhs, bohras have the Dai.
"But when a Bohra goes to ask for raza all he/she wants to do is accomplish a particular religious/social task."
---This is the problem. If this is their point..why ask? Who is the amil to them. It is the position the amil holds and represent that is key.
"So would you agree then that it is wrong and incorrect for the Amil and higher-ups to get mad at me when I don't ask for raza?"
--In the bohra community, the method of reaching the Imam for raza is through his representative. In the community it is equivalent to having a beard. I am assuming they reprimand for not having a beard in the same way they do for raza. I read somewhere that the Dai al'Shirazi went for forty days at the door of the Fatimi Imam to see him.
"Can you pls explain what is "the reason you seek the raza in the first place" for? Is it different from seeking "acceptance and knowledge of the Imam"?"
--As I wrote before, to seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. You are asking with the intent to get advice and acceptance of your Imam for what you are doing (thru the amil or Dai). This is why I gave the example of the salat and was intended for what you wrote..it is not important who you seek it from (the amil or Dai) but that you seek it from the Imam.
For example..when is raza required. Naming a child, nikah, buring someone, going on Hajj or ziyarat, having a religious majalis. Is there something else? These seems like very big events in someone's life...something you'd want the permission and blessing of the Imam of. I know going through a particular amil may seem wrong...but look at intent not the action.
Let me know if I missed something.
"You say raza is required for a believer, but the majority of believers choose to ignore this particular sunnah."
--a believer is a mumin...a submitter to the faith is a muslim. A believer enacts all the Quranic and sunnah injuctions to the best of their ability..or at least doesn't deny them as not true. All sunnah IS obligatory. It is what is considered sunnah that is the question. Shiah consider raza the sunnah..because of the rights of the Imam.
"Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate". Can you also explain the shift in focus from the Prophet's sunnah to the "role of Imamate"?"
---It is not a shift..remember the Prophet was first and foremost the Imam..then Nabi then Rasul. He, above all, had the same rights that should be given to any Imam.
"As for asking for raza, let's say I want to do a qurbani, whose raza should I ask so that by seeking raza I may fulfill all doctrinal requirements?"
---Who is your Imam? If in ghaybat like the shiahs..it is his representative. Some have ayatuallahs, others have shiekhs, bohras have the Dai.
"But when a Bohra goes to ask for raza all he/she wants to do is accomplish a particular religious/social task."
---This is the problem. If this is their point..why ask? Who is the amil to them. It is the position the amil holds and represent that is key.
"So would you agree then that it is wrong and incorrect for the Amil and higher-ups to get mad at me when I don't ask for raza?"
--In the bohra community, the method of reaching the Imam for raza is through his representative. In the community it is equivalent to having a beard. I am assuming they reprimand for not having a beard in the same way they do for raza. I read somewhere that the Dai al'Shirazi went for forty days at the door of the Fatimi Imam to see him.
"Can you pls explain what is "the reason you seek the raza in the first place" for? Is it different from seeking "acceptance and knowledge of the Imam"?"
--As I wrote before, to seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. You are asking with the intent to get advice and acceptance of your Imam for what you are doing (thru the amil or Dai). This is why I gave the example of the salat and was intended for what you wrote..it is not important who you seek it from (the amil or Dai) but that you seek it from the Imam.
For example..when is raza required. Naming a child, nikah, buring someone, going on Hajj or ziyarat, having a religious majalis. Is there something else? These seems like very big events in someone's life...something you'd want the permission and blessing of the Imam of. I know going through a particular amil may seem wrong...but look at intent not the action.
Let me know if I missed something.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
Hur,
(i)Not a Bohra after all (in which case you would understandably not know the facts)
(ii) a Sheik (whereby you can pray there)
(iii) or simply a disingenuous Bohra
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on iii.
Maybe you areI'm am not sure what you mean by reserved. I myself have prayed in this front row when I prayed with bohras.
(i)Not a Bohra after all (in which case you would understandably not know the facts)
(ii) a Sheik (whereby you can pray there)
(iii) or simply a disingenuous Bohra
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on iii.
Re: Raza
Dear AB,
I feel it was disingenious for you to make that comment.
That fact as I have summarized is that many who call themselves bohras..know little of what they speak of. So when someone outsides see the obvious..you say they don't know the facts. How ironic!
The fact is..I see many people who are not shiekhs (from what I can tell) praying in the first row. My friend's 16 yrs son prays often in the first row...and I know he is not a shiekh (nor my friend for that matter).
So have you actually based your theory (conjecture) on?
I feel it was disingenious for you to make that comment.
That fact as I have summarized is that many who call themselves bohras..know little of what they speak of. So when someone outsides see the obvious..you say they don't know the facts. How ironic!
The fact is..I see many people who are not shiekhs (from what I can tell) praying in the first row. My friend's 16 yrs son prays often in the first row...and I know he is not a shiekh (nor my friend for that matter).
So have you actually based your theory (conjecture) on?
Re: Raza
Hur,
Could you pls answer the questions in the same order as I pose them. This will keep the discussion a little more manageable.
Sunnah is obligatory. Those who do not follow sunnah commit sin. Most Muslims do not follow the sunnah of raza. Most Muslims are sinners.
This is what you have been saying. Do you agree? Pls answer in YES or NO. (Remember we are talking about your point of view - your theological position. Shiah/Sunni disagreement over certain sunnah is immaterial here.)
You did not answer my question:
1) Is a reprimand for the violation of sunnah sunnah?
2) Who has the authority to issue reprimand (in the bohra context)?
3) What do we mean by reprimand, and what shape and form should it take? Should it suffice with verbal scolding or may involve a monetary fine, telling people not to talk to the offender and/or attend their function, baraat etc.?
And, it often so happens that the local Amil refuses to give raza - let's say, for the burial of a man's father. Since the Amil is not acting in his own right but as a representative of Imam via Dai, his refusal mean the refusal of the Imam. So the question is, why and under what conditions would the Imam (or his representatives) refuse raza?
One more question, this may sound dumb but I do need to know to clarify my understanding: What does the act of asking raza involve? Does it always have to involve salam (money)? In given that how scattered and busy we are, can we do it over the phone, email??
Could you pls answer the questions in the same order as I pose them. This will keep the discussion a little more manageable.
No, all sunnah is NOT obligatory. (For example, there are sunnah al-huda and sunnah al-ada). But anyway, that's not my concern here. For our discussion we are assuming that the sunnah of raza is obligatory. So, from your point of view, a part of our discussion can be stated in this simple syllogism:Originally posted by hur:
... All sunnah IS obligatory. It is what is considered sunnah that is the question. Shiah consider raza the sunnah..because of the rights of the Imam.
Sunnah is obligatory. Those who do not follow sunnah commit sin. Most Muslims do not follow the sunnah of raza. Most Muslims are sinners.
This is what you have been saying. Do you agree? Pls answer in YES or NO. (Remember we are talking about your point of view - your theological position. Shiah/Sunni disagreement over certain sunnah is immaterial here.)
You did not answer my question:
When I asked whom should I ask for raza for qurbani, your said:Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate".
The dai is not always available or even accessible. The local Amil is his representative. Is it valid to ask raza from him?Who is your Imam? If in ghaybat like the shiahs..it is his representative. Some have ayatuallahs, others have shiekhs, bohras have the Dai.
Well, this may be the problem but this is the reality. This is what actually happens all the time. People ask raza because it's part of the set up - if there is an occasion in the family, they must ask raza. Nobody cares about the Imam. So, following your suggestion "If this is their point..why ask?", wouldn't they be better off not asking raza at all?"But when a Bohra goes to ask for raza all he/she wants to do is accomplish a particular religious/social task."
---This is the problem. If this is their point..why ask? Who is the amil to them. It is the position the amil holds and represent that is key.
So you endorse reprimanding. The questions that follow are three fold:"So would you agree then that it is wrong and incorrect for the Amil and higher-ups to get mad at me when I don't ask for raza?"
--In the bohra community, the method of reaching the Imam for raza is through his representative. In the community it is equivalent to having a beard. I am assuming they reprimand for not having a beard in the same way they do for raza.
1) Is a reprimand for the violation of sunnah sunnah?
2) Who has the authority to issue reprimand (in the bohra context)?
3) What do we mean by reprimand, and what shape and form should it take? Should it suffice with verbal scolding or may involve a monetary fine, telling people not to talk to the offender and/or attend their function, baraat etc.?
As I said before, no matter what your high-falutin theology says people do NOT ask for raza with the intent of seeking Imam's knowledge and acceptance. They do it for very practical reasons. But here's a basic question: Why is Imam's knowledge and acceptance so important - especially for routine stuff like qurbani? All you do is get a goat, recite some dua and slaughter it. Doesn't he know already that if it's eid-al adha, it must be goat slaughtering time?--As I wrote before, to seek raza is to seek the acceptance and knowledge of the Imam. You are asking with the intent to get advice and acceptance of your Imam for what you are doing (thru the amil or Dai).
And, it often so happens that the local Amil refuses to give raza - let's say, for the burial of a man's father. Since the Amil is not acting in his own right but as a representative of Imam via Dai, his refusal mean the refusal of the Imam. So the question is, why and under what conditions would the Imam (or his representatives) refuse raza?
One more question, this may sound dumb but I do need to know to clarify my understanding: What does the act of asking raza involve? Does it always have to involve salam (money)? In given that how scattered and busy we are, can we do it over the phone, email??
Re: Raza
Sunnah is obligatory. Those who do not follow sunnah commit sin. Most Muslims do not follow the sunnah of raza. Most Muslims are sinners.
---Clarification..most muslims do not consider raza a sunnah practice..because they don't follow the concept of Imamate either. In their theology, they don't consider themselves sinning by not following raza. From the shiah vantage point they would indirectly because we consider it a sunnah practice.
"Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate".
---I did...the role of Imamate is to be a leader of the community in Islam...and this position of Imam has certain rights that the muslims must adhere to. Raza being one of them. When you feel you don't need raza...you are saying the Imam doesn't have this right.
"The dai is not always available or even accessible. The local Amil is his representative. Is it valid to ask raza from him?"
--You would be correct in asking him.
"Well, this may be the problem but this is the reality. This is what actually happens all the time. People ask raza because it's part of the set up - if there is an occasion in the family, they must ask raza. Nobody cares about the Imam. So, following your suggestion "If this is their point..why ask?", wouldn't they be better off not asking raza at all?"
--The path of your analogy of "better off not asking raza at all" lead to not observing the rights of the Imam at all. Ignorance of the actual reason someone performs a practice is no excuse. People perform salat without having a clue of what they are saying or why they are performing. This ignorance is not an excuse. It leads to the breakdown of the theology into methodical practice with no meaning. This is not Islam.
Do not think this is a bohra issue..every sect is going through this same dilemma.
"1) Is a reprimand for the violation of sunnah sunnah?"
---yes.
"2) Who has the authority to issue reprimand (in the bohra context)?"
---the representative place in charge. If you feel this is not warranted..you would proceed to a higher position.
"3) What do we mean by reprimand, and what shape and form should it take? Should it suffice with verbal scolding or may involve a monetary fine, telling people not to talk to the offender and/or attend their function, baraat etc.?"
---Depends on the severity of the offense, was it rectified, was it continued, was it exploited. All four list have been used by the Prophet and or Imams.
"Why is Imam's knowledge and acceptance so important - especially for routine stuff like qurbani? All you do is get a goat, recite some dua and slaughter it. Doesn't he know already that if it's eid-al adha, it must be goat slaughtering time?"
---Do you what you are saying in the dua? Do you know what is the meaning of slaughtering the animal for qurbani anyways? The dua is a recitation of Prophet and Imams names and that this sacrifice is in the name of Allah and the wasilah of these persons. Qurbani is not just an act to get meat or perform a rite. It has both a spirtual meaning and reality.
"So the question is, why and under what conditions would the Imam (or his representatives) refuse raza?"
---Depends on the position of the his father. Was he part of the community and upholding of the communities rights on him?
"What does the act of asking raza involve? Does it always have to involve salam (money)? In given that how scattered and busy we are, can we do it over the phone, email??"
---The act of raza is to ask permission. It doesn't have to involve money. You should observe customs...bohras do a hand salams I believe. In Iran, we hold the shiekhs hand and usually give a hug. Arabs kiss sometimes.
You can leave me personal email on this site I believe.
---Clarification..most muslims do not consider raza a sunnah practice..because they don't follow the concept of Imamate either. In their theology, they don't consider themselves sinning by not following raza. From the shiah vantage point they would indirectly because we consider it a sunnah practice.
"Can you pls explain what is meant by "dishonoring the role of Imamate".
---I did...the role of Imamate is to be a leader of the community in Islam...and this position of Imam has certain rights that the muslims must adhere to. Raza being one of them. When you feel you don't need raza...you are saying the Imam doesn't have this right.
"The dai is not always available or even accessible. The local Amil is his representative. Is it valid to ask raza from him?"
--You would be correct in asking him.
"Well, this may be the problem but this is the reality. This is what actually happens all the time. People ask raza because it's part of the set up - if there is an occasion in the family, they must ask raza. Nobody cares about the Imam. So, following your suggestion "If this is their point..why ask?", wouldn't they be better off not asking raza at all?"
--The path of your analogy of "better off not asking raza at all" lead to not observing the rights of the Imam at all. Ignorance of the actual reason someone performs a practice is no excuse. People perform salat without having a clue of what they are saying or why they are performing. This ignorance is not an excuse. It leads to the breakdown of the theology into methodical practice with no meaning. This is not Islam.
Do not think this is a bohra issue..every sect is going through this same dilemma.
"1) Is a reprimand for the violation of sunnah sunnah?"
---yes.
"2) Who has the authority to issue reprimand (in the bohra context)?"
---the representative place in charge. If you feel this is not warranted..you would proceed to a higher position.
"3) What do we mean by reprimand, and what shape and form should it take? Should it suffice with verbal scolding or may involve a monetary fine, telling people not to talk to the offender and/or attend their function, baraat etc.?"
---Depends on the severity of the offense, was it rectified, was it continued, was it exploited. All four list have been used by the Prophet and or Imams.
"Why is Imam's knowledge and acceptance so important - especially for routine stuff like qurbani? All you do is get a goat, recite some dua and slaughter it. Doesn't he know already that if it's eid-al adha, it must be goat slaughtering time?"
---Do you what you are saying in the dua? Do you know what is the meaning of slaughtering the animal for qurbani anyways? The dua is a recitation of Prophet and Imams names and that this sacrifice is in the name of Allah and the wasilah of these persons. Qurbani is not just an act to get meat or perform a rite. It has both a spirtual meaning and reality.
"So the question is, why and under what conditions would the Imam (or his representatives) refuse raza?"
---Depends on the position of the his father. Was he part of the community and upholding of the communities rights on him?
"What does the act of asking raza involve? Does it always have to involve salam (money)? In given that how scattered and busy we are, can we do it over the phone, email??"
---The act of raza is to ask permission. It doesn't have to involve money. You should observe customs...bohras do a hand salams I believe. In Iran, we hold the shiekhs hand and usually give a hug. Arabs kiss sometimes.
You can leave me personal email on this site I believe.
Re: Raza
Maybe I have missed this, but has the fundamental question on raza raised by Humsafar been answered? i.e. is there any evidence to support the assumption that the Bohra system of raza was practised by the Prophet?
For example, did the Prophet ever state that prayers without his permission or without the permission of those he appointed were invalid? Did he ever state that the funeral prayer in the same manner would be invalid? Did he ever state that zakat unless given to him or his appointees is pointless?
By the same token, the Quran outlines the religous obligations, but does it so much as hint that these obligations are invalid if they are done without the permission of given authority? And if it does not, then what does that say of the importance of raza?
Just curious.
Merely showing that certain companions sought permission for any of the above matters does not really prove the validity of the Bohra system of raza because this could have been done as a custom or out of respect for him, and not necessarily as a religous obligation. e.g. the prophet rode a camel and ate certain types of food but never insisted others do the same as a religous duty. Raza would only be a religous duty had the Prophet specifically insisted raza is needed and without which the act is invalid, or had chastised someone for not seeking raza for a ritual such as prayer.
For example, did the Prophet ever state that prayers without his permission or without the permission of those he appointed were invalid? Did he ever state that the funeral prayer in the same manner would be invalid? Did he ever state that zakat unless given to him or his appointees is pointless?
By the same token, the Quran outlines the religous obligations, but does it so much as hint that these obligations are invalid if they are done without the permission of given authority? And if it does not, then what does that say of the importance of raza?
Just curious.
Merely showing that certain companions sought permission for any of the above matters does not really prove the validity of the Bohra system of raza because this could have been done as a custom or out of respect for him, and not necessarily as a religous obligation. e.g. the prophet rode a camel and ate certain types of food but never insisted others do the same as a religous duty. Raza would only be a religous duty had the Prophet specifically insisted raza is needed and without which the act is invalid, or had chastised someone for not seeking raza for a ritual such as prayer.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Raza
Hur,
When asked by Humsafar you state that situations warranting Raza include
I rest my case.....
What is ironic is that a self-proclaimed supposed non-Bohra such as yourself, who by his own admission has occasionally prayed in a Bohra mosque with a supposed friend and his supposed 6-year old who are all supposedly non-Sheiks, in a mystical utopian Bohra mosque, feels confident enough to preach to those who have lived the Bohra lives (15 years in my case) how he can somehow "see the obvious". Disingenuous ? I was being kind.That fact as I have summarized is that many who call themselves bohras..know little of what they speak of. So when someone outsides see the obvious..you say they don't know the facts. How ironic!
When asked by Humsafar you state that situations warranting Raza include
When you refer to a a religious majalis as a "big event" in someone's life , I fail to see how anyone on this board can take you seriously. In whatever faith you claim to practice it is assumed that a "religious majalis" is a big event ! If I were a man of faith in your cult and a religious majalis would qualify as a "big event", Raza would be the last thing I would be defending.Naming a child, nikah, buring someone, going on Hajj or ziyarat, having a religious majalis. Is there something else? These seems like very big events in someone's life
I rest my case.....
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Africawala
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:01 am
Re: Raza
Dear Hur,
I have just very simple questions for you. Please reply briefly. I do not need long explanations.
1. Please tell me which line of Imamat do you follow, that is "Twelvers" or the Bohoras and why.
If you follow the Twelvers, why and if you follow the Bohoras why?
2. You claim to be a Twelver, so how come Raza is not practiced by them. Please do not tell me that there is Raza Because I grew up with these people and I had them as friends for many many years. In fact, I have a cousin who is married to one and he has all sorts of majalises in his home and has had children and never needed Raza for name or akikas, or for anything else. In fact I checked with him before I wrote and he told me that they do not need raza for the above things.
I have just very simple questions for you. Please reply briefly. I do not need long explanations.
1. Please tell me which line of Imamat do you follow, that is "Twelvers" or the Bohoras and why.
If you follow the Twelvers, why and if you follow the Bohoras why?
2. You claim to be a Twelver, so how come Raza is not practiced by them. Please do not tell me that there is Raza Because I grew up with these people and I had them as friends for many many years. In fact, I have a cousin who is married to one and he has all sorts of majalises in his home and has had children and never needed Raza for name or akikas, or for anything else. In fact I checked with him before I wrote and he told me that they do not need raza for the above things.
Re: Raza
Dear Friends,
You have posed some good questions...I will try to address them..please readdress if I missed some.
Br. Muslim asked:
"is there any evidence to support the assumption that the Bohra system of raza was practised by the Prophet?"
--yes. The fact that he appointed amils to various cities for control and maintainance of those areas and for those muslims (ie collecting zakat, leading prayer, etc). This was practiced by under Imam Ali and Hasan's kaliphs as well.
The Quranic obligation is to obey the Prophet and those of knowledge (ie the Imams).
And in fact, when please did things with the Prophet's permission...he was very angry with them. The Prophet went so far as to make in to a general sense of manner. Examples: the younger brother doesn't speak unless permission is given by the older brother; do not speak or leave the home unless parents permission is given. These don't stop when your 18 either.
You have posed some good questions...I will try to address them..please readdress if I missed some.
Br. Muslim asked:
"is there any evidence to support the assumption that the Bohra system of raza was practised by the Prophet?"
--yes. The fact that he appointed amils to various cities for control and maintainance of those areas and for those muslims (ie collecting zakat, leading prayer, etc). This was practiced by under Imam Ali and Hasan's kaliphs as well.
The Quranic obligation is to obey the Prophet and those of knowledge (ie the Imams).
And in fact, when please did things with the Prophet's permission...he was very angry with them. The Prophet went so far as to make in to a general sense of manner. Examples: the younger brother doesn't speak unless permission is given by the older brother; do not speak or leave the home unless parents permission is given. These don't stop when your 18 either.
Re: Raza
Dear AB,
Justifing who I am has become a standard issue for you all.
I attend the mosque in Chicago and sometimes in Houston (I travel back and forth for business). There are several shiah that also come there regularly. I have many reformist and bohra friends (you could say we have a club) which include other shiahs, sunnis, hindus, and sikhs. I have lived in the US for 29 years.
I am a twelver shiah by birth...and reference the twelve Imams and the ayatuallahs as well. But I also acknowledge the Fatimi Imams and their dais.
And your comment of the religious majalis is somewhat strange to me at least. Do you consider hosting a religious majalis trivial? Do you not considering hosting a majalis at a mosque a "big deal"? I am sure the cost is no big deal...correct? My bohra friend said he held a majalis, where the cost of food and cooking was $750. Do you give so little importance to a majalis?
Justifing who I am has become a standard issue for you all.
I attend the mosque in Chicago and sometimes in Houston (I travel back and forth for business). There are several shiah that also come there regularly. I have many reformist and bohra friends (you could say we have a club) which include other shiahs, sunnis, hindus, and sikhs. I have lived in the US for 29 years.
I am a twelver shiah by birth...and reference the twelve Imams and the ayatuallahs as well. But I also acknowledge the Fatimi Imams and their dais.
And your comment of the religious majalis is somewhat strange to me at least. Do you consider hosting a religious majalis trivial? Do you not considering hosting a majalis at a mosque a "big deal"? I am sure the cost is no big deal...correct? My bohra friend said he held a majalis, where the cost of food and cooking was $750. Do you give so little importance to a majalis?