Raza

[hur]

Dear Africawalla,

"1. Please tell me which line of Imamat do you follow, that is "Twelvers" or the Bohoras and why.
If you follow the Twelvers, why and if you follow the Bohoras why?"

--please see my reply to AB for this part. I draw from both sources of knowledge..because both address the shiah aqidah.

"2. You claim to be a Twelver, so how come Raza is not practiced by them. Please do not tell me that there is Raza Because I grew up with these people and I had them as friends for many many years. In fact, I have a cousin who is married to one and he has all sorts of majalises in his home and has had children and never needed Raza for name or akikas, or for anything else. In fact I checked with him before I wrote and he told me that they do not need raza for the above things."

---In your question and comment you forgot one huge step. Did you check yourself in the doctrines of twelvers? NO. You asked your friends who are twelvers. Are they Ayatuallahs? are they even mu'alims (not mullah)? I have noted this many times...do not judge the faith by its adherents.

There are many things that Twelvers do..that they are not suppose to...and many things that they are suppose to do and don't. Raza being one. Remember the rights of the Imams were documented by Imam Zaynul Abidin...not just recently.

The Imam said "The religion of Allah, the Great and Almighty, is not attained by incomplete intellects, false opinions, and corrupt measures. It is not attained but through submission. Whoever submits to us (the Imams) is safe, and whoever follows us is guided. Whoever puts into effect analogy and opinion is ruined. Whoever is dissatisfied with what we say and decide is unbeliever in Him who sent down the seven verses of (Surat al-Fa`tiha) (i.e., Allah) and the Holy Qur'a`n while he does know that." from Bihar al'Anwar.

[Humsafar]

...most muslims do not consider raza a sunnah practice..because they don't follow the concept of Imamate either. In their theology, they don't consider themselves sinning by not following raza. From the shiah vantage point they would indirectly because we consider it a sunnah practice.

In your book most Muslims are sinners. Right? (We're talking about your (bohra clergy) point of view. I don't care whether sunnis accept raza as sunnah or not - that's not the issue here.)

...the role of Imamate is to be a leader of the community in Islam...and this position of Imam has certain rights that the muslims must adhere to. Raza being one of them. When you feel you don't need raza...you are saying the Imam doesn't have this right.

I've a problem with this theology - especially because it impinges on practical day to day life of a believer. The Imam is a leader of the community. But the Imam is in "hiding" and that too for hundreds of years.

First, by any standards of leadership, a leader who goes into hiding is not a leader but a loser. Okay, there are special circumstances that may warrant such "hiding", and I accept that. But circumstances change. Times change. But a leader (or his progeny) who continues to be in hiding for centuries cannot by any criteria can be judged a leader.

Second, by the same token - his absence from the scene - amounts to dereliction of duty towards the community. A leader who can't keep his part of the bargain has no right to claim "certain rights that the muslims must adhere to." And, why does he need these rights anyway? On what basis does he claim these rights. And even if it can be justified, to my mind it is presumptuous and rather vain that an Imam who is missing in action should insist that people seek his "permission" for such routine things as naming a child, qurbani, majalis etc.

Three, the dai who is filling in for the Imam is presumably in touch with him. Why doesn't he (or the ayatollahs) explain the absence of the Imam? It is common sense that believers deserve an explanation about their leader who is hiding for hundreds of years. Hiding from whom, where, why?

"3) What do we mean by reprimand, and what shape and form should it take? Should it suffice with verbal scolding or may involve a monetary fine, telling people not to talk to the offender and/or attend their function, baraat etc.?"

---Depends on the severity of the offense, was it rectified, was it continued, was it exploited. All four list have been used by the Prophet and or Imams.

Can you pls give specific examples of how and under what circumstances did the Prophet and Imams punish followers for refusing to ask raza.

---The act of raza is to ask permission. It doesn't have to involve money. You should observe customs...bohras do a hand salams I believe. In Iran, we hold the shiekhs hand and usually give a hug. Arabs kiss sometimes.

So it doesn't have to involve money at all! The idea is to ask raza - how you do it is totally arbitrary. Right?

Lastly Hur, I don't see any need for personal emails. Let our discussion be public.

[Humsafar]

Thanks Africawala for bringing this up. And Hur's response is a classic dilemma of a mullah caught between the contradiction of doctrinal purity and impure practice.

There are many things that Twelvers do..that they are not suppose to...and many things that they are suppose to do and don't. Raza being one.

But Hur you're forgetting one HUGE fact. If raza is so important for Twelvers why don't the Ayatollahs enforce it as stringently as our Dai. Left to themselves the bohras will not care to seek raza but the dai and his set-up have made sure that they bloody well do so - of course for the sake of Imamate. Left to themselves Twelvers do not ask far raza. And Ayatollahs don't enforce it. I would assume that the Ayatollahs do not care enough about raza? Because if they did then they would probably have a system (of raza and punishment) in place like the bohras.

[hur]

Humsafar,

"In your book most Muslims are sinners. Right? (We're talking about your (bohra clergy) point of view. I don't care whether sunnis accept raza as sunnah or not - that's not the issue here.)"

---The problem is you can't call someone a sinner for something they don't believe in. From my view point, a Shiah who doesn't believe in is sinning.

"I've a problem with this theology - especially because it impinges on practical day to day life of a believer. The Imam is a leader of the community. But the Imam is in "hiding" and that too for hundreds of years."

---Doesn't that mean you shouldn't acknowledge the Imam being present spritually. You've never seen Allah yet you practice an entire religion for Him by His laws.

"First, by any standards of leadership, a leader who goes into hiding is not a leader but a loser." and "his absence from the scene - amounts to dereliction of duty towards the community."
--Are you really a shiah??? The fact that he isn't there doesn't mean you ignore his position. Most of the early shiah never saw the Imam...yet they followed and honored him.

"Three, the dai who is filling in for the Imam is presumably in touch with him. Why doesn't he (or the ayatollahs) explain the absence of the Imam? It is common sense that believers deserve an explanation about their leader who is hiding for hundreds of years. Hiding from whom, where, why?"

--Most believe the Imam is hiding because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shiahs!

"Can you pls give specific examples of how and under what circumstances did the Prophet and Imams punish followers for refusing to ask raza."

---I will respond to this in a separate post.

"So it doesn't have to involve money at all! The idea is to ask raza - how you do it is totally arbitrary. Right?"

--raza means to ask permission..not pay off. There is a the concept of najwa or a gift...but it is not a requirement.

"If raza is so important for Twelvers why don't the Ayatollahs enforce it as stringently as our Dai."
---It is exactly the reason you point out "Left to themselves the bohras will not care to seek raza." The fact is the population of the twelver is huge..bohras is not. Bohras had a government system established during the Fatimi Imamate which had raza...Twelvers didn't. Look at the strictness of certain rules in Iran. It is because the Ayatuallahs don't enforce raza that it isn't enforced...if they had a consensus they would. But they have no agreement on the issue. While no one from the camp of Imam Husayn went to fight without the permission of the Imam...some Ayatuallahs are cautious on the topic.

[Muslim]

Hur,

--yes. The fact that he appointed amils to various cities for control and maintainance of those areas and for those muslims (ie collecting zakat, leading prayer, etc). This was practiced by under Imam Ali and Hasan's kaliphs as well.

Please read the rest of my post for what exactly I am asking. I am not questioning the appointment of amils here, I am asking for evidence that raza is required for certain rituals (the Bohra way) e.g. was there ever an instance during the Prophet's time where, for example, a congregational prayer was rendered invalid because the amil had not given his raza?

And in fact, when please did things with the Prophet's permission...he was very angry with them. The Prophet went so far as to make in to a general sense of manner. Examples: the younger brother doesn't speak unless permission is given by the older brother; do not speak or leave the home unless parents permission is given. These don't stop when your 18 either.

Again, I'm not really interested in good manners within a family, all religions preach this to an extent. I am interested in evidence for the specific Bohra-style raza system in their rituals e.g. prayers not valid without raza of amil.

"Can you pls give specific examples of how and under what circumstances did the Prophet and Imams punish followers for refusing to ask raza."

---I will respond to this in a separate post.

This is what I am interested in.

[Muslim]

It is because the Ayatuallahs don't enforce raza that it isn't enforced...if they had a consensus they would. But they have no agreement on the issue.

Hur, first you claim raza is part of core Twelver belief, now you say there is "no agreement on the issue".

Perhaps you can point us to the section on Sistani's or Khui's set of laws which states that a qualification of the prayer leader is that he must have raza of an ayatollah?

[Humsafar]

From my view point, a Shiah who doesn't believe in is sinning.

So from your point of view, Twelvers are sinners. They are supposed to believe in raza but do no practice it.

---Doesn't that mean you shouldn't acknowledge the Imam being present spritually. You've never seen Allah yet you practice an entire religion for Him by His laws.

Hur… pleeeeease, you're NOT supposed to see Allah. The Imam is supposed to be a person, a human being in flesh and blood. If I've to acknowledge somebody spiritually, I'll rather acknowledge Allah and not an Imam. Besides, our Imam seems to be more demanding than Allah. And, if the Imam insists on being recognised spirtually then how about I ask for his raza also 'spiritually'. I think that's only fair.

You did not answer my question: "And, why does he need these rights anyway? On what basis does he claim these rights?"

--Are you really a shiah??? The fact that he isn't there doesn't mean you ignore his position. Most of the early shiah never saw the Imam...yet they followed and honored him.

My being shiah or not is not relevant here. I do not /cannot speak for early shiahs, but don't you think if a position has been vacant for centuries then it is possible that it has outlived its utility and even its validity?

--Most believe the Imam is hiding because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shiahs!

This is a real gem. I'd have thought that the Imam should be around precisely because "we are not praciticing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to". It's like sayinig: People are fighting amongst themselves. But the peacemaker will not come until people stop fighting and live peacefully. What kind of logic is that. The Imam is "waiting for us to act like shihas", but what will he come and do AFTER we started acting like shihas? Take credit for nothing!

You said "most believe…." What I want to know is what do the Dai and Ayatollahs have to say about the missing Imam. They should have a number on him. Either they know and don't want to tell. Which is bad. Or they don't have a clue. Which is worse. Either way the whole business looks fishy to me.

---It is exactly the reason you point out "Left to themselves the bohras will not care to seek raza." The fact is the population of the twelver is huge..bohras is not. Bohras had a government system established during the Fatimi Imamate which had raza...Twelvers didn't.

So the implementation of raza is a function of size and managibility - not of doctrinal importance? Bohras have raza because we "had" a government. For reasons of state I can grudgingly admit that raza was necessary (even so, it was never for the general public - if you have evidence to the contrary please bring it to the table. Also, as Muslim has reiterated above, raza was not instituanalised in Prophet's time and even so it was never meant for the general public.)

But Bohras no longer have a government. It's only a religion not a state. They had raza because they had a government. Now there's no government, so no need for raza. Right?

Look at the strictness of certain rules in Iran. It is because the Ayatuallahs don't enforce raza that it isn't enforced...if they had a consensus they would. But they have no agreement on the issue.

So Ayatollahs can be strict about "certain rules" (examples?) if they want to be. But they don't choose to be strict about raza. Could it be because they don't see raza as that important? It would seem so considering that they don't have a consensus or agreement on the issue. Things that are important they have perfect agreement on, like salah, haj, zakat etc. ?

Just curious, you being a Twelver what is your prefrence: a confident Dai enforcing raza or doubting Ayatollahs who can't seem to agree on it?

[Average Bohra]

Hur,

And your comment of the religious majalis is somewhat strange to me at least. Do you consider hosting a religious majalis trivial?

Yes I do, compared to once / few in a lifetime events such as naming a child, Nikah & weddings. Being a Bohra expert you should be aware of the fact that Majalis' occur daily and in multiple locations, at the drop of a Topi.

[hur]

Dear Muslim,
"I am not questioning the appointment of amils here, I am asking for evidence that raza is required for certain rituals (the Bohra way) e.g. was there ever an instance during the Prophet's time where, for example, a congregational prayer was rendered invalid because the amil had not given his raza?"

---This was reason for sending and designating amils in the first place..to lead congregatonal prayer, collect zakat and other duties. The manners that you refer to apply to those in your authority. The Prophet himself designated people to lead prayer in his abscense or no one lead the prayer.

Ibn Shihab said, Abdullah b. Abu Bakr b. Abdur Rahman b. al-Harith b. Hisham told me from his father from Abdullah b. Zama'a b. al-Aswad b. al-Muttalib b. Asad that when the Apostle was seriously ill and I with a number of Muslims was with him, Bilal called him to prayer, and he told us to order someone to preside at prayer. So I went out and there was Umar with the people, but Abu Bakr was not there. I told Umar to get up and lead the prayers, so he did so, and when he shouted Allah Akbar, the Apostle heard his voice, for he had a powerful voice, and he asked where Abu Bakr was, saying twice over, "God and the Muslims forbid that." So I was sent to Abu Bakr and he came after Umar had finished that prayer and presided. Umar asked me what on earth I had done, saying, "When you told me to lead the prayer, I thought that the Apostle had given you orders to that effect; but for that I would not have done so." I replied that he had not ordered me to do so, but when I could not find Abu Bakr I thought that he (Umar) was most worthy of those present to lead the prayer."

He did the same for funeral and other obligations.

[Muslim]

---This was reason for sending and designating amils in the first place..to lead congregatonal prayer, collect zakat and other duties.

I'm not arguing that governors existed and that one of their duties was the above. But its one thing to say that and another to say that the congregational prayer would be invalid if the amil had not given raza to someone to do it.

Regarding the story you posted:

First, you didn't give the reference - its from Ibn Ishaq's seerah.

Secondly, read carefully, "and I with a number of Muslims was with him, Bilal called him to prayer, and he told us to order someone to preside at prayer." Note the prophet telling the Muslims to order someone to lead the prayer which contradicts with the Bohra idea of raza.

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

You say:

--Most believe the Imam is hiding because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shia.

_________________________________________________

The above sounds like some parents who would leave their children and go away,because their children do not follow the household discipline. They tell their children that when they behave as they should, they ( parents) will return!!!!

Imams are spiritual parents. They would never abandon their responsibility to their spiritual children. Imam Hussein could have done so if he had so desired, but he stayed and fought to the end.

No need to reply, dear.

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

I forgot to add: Without the parents who would guide the children to behave properly.

I am sure if the Imam was present the Shiahs would start acting like Shiahs with his guidance. Shiahs cannot learn by themselves. How are the students going to learn without the teacher?? Especially those who do not even know A<B<Cs.

[Average Bohra]

Most believe the Imam is hiding because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shiahs!

Indeed laughable....well actually asinine. Let's see where we can go from here:

1. The President has gone into hiding because no one will approve of his policies like they are supposed to. In fact, he is waiting for us to approve his policies.

2. The General has gone into hiding because his soldiers are not winning the war like they are supposed to. In fact, he is waiting for the soldiers to win the war.

3.The employee has gone into hiding because his boss will not approve his raise. In fact, he is waiting for his raise that he deserves.

4. Hur has gone into hiding because no one will agree with the bondage of Raza. In fact, he is waiting for all of us to agree.

Shame on us for participating in this dicussion for as long as we have....

[khan19922001]

"Most believe the Imam is hiding because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shiahs! '

With these famous words, Hur can now consider the discussion to come to an end. Nobody will take him seriously.

[BB]

"Most believe hur is Qiyam but he is lying because we are not practicing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to. In fact, he is waiting for us to act like shiahs! then only he will reveal the truth'

[hur]

Dear Muslim,
If your reading of the story is correct..why is Bilal chatised for selecting Umar. Why was Abu Bakr even brought into the conversation. The fact that "a number of muslims" were present doesn't mean anything...because the Prophet directed Bilal (the official muezzin) to find someone suitable to lead the prayer. In modern sunni and shiah edict..the most senior person available would lead the prayer...without even asking someone (let alone the Prophet).

And look at Umar's reply.."When you told me to lead the prayer, I thought that the Apostle had given you orders to that effect". Why would Umar think that an order would need to be given to the lead the prayer if one is not needed???

And to add..Bilal actually did what is commonly done now..selecting whom he thought was most worthy available...yet the Prophet chatised him for selecting Umar and told him to find Abu Bakr.

Please explain these issues.

[hur]

Dear Africawala,
Imams are spirtual parents...thus they are with us regardless of physically or not. My explaination was refering ot the physical aspect..not the spirtual.

Dear AB and BB,
Do you have any concept of what you believe? Remember the bohra Imam Ismail through Imam Qiam were in hidening (about 200 hundred years).

And for that matter the majority shiah (twelvers) believe that the Imam Zaman (in hiding) is waiting for us to act like shiah...this is where my statement comes from.

[Humsafar]

AB, you're right. This discussion shouldn't have continued for this long. I'm partly guilty of it. But Hur claims to speak only from the docrinal standpoint and it was necessary to tease out the finer points on which he justifies the theology of raza.

[hur]

"So from your point of view, Twelvers are sinners. They are supposed to believe in raza but do no practice it."

--I did not say we all don't practice it...I said because there is no mechanism of control (like the bohras). Some of those who are outside the areas of the marajah control do not practice it. I know many who send ardhi to the Ayatuallah Sistani often. Even in the mosque where a resident alim or sayyid is posted raza of various actions happening in the mosque must obtained.

"The Imam is supposed to be a person, a human being in flesh and blood."

---based on what?

"And, why does he need these rights anyway? On what basis does he claim these rights?"

---these are the rights given to Imam by Allah as His representative on earth. These rights are identified in the Quran and the Prophetic traditions.

"My being shiah or not is not relevant here."

---yes it does...it forms the level of how basic your question or answers need to be. You at one point tell me to ignore sunni shiah difference and respond as a shiah and then tell me it doesn't matter.

"I do not /cannot speak for early shiahs, but don't you think if a position has been vacant for centuries then it is possible that it has outlived its utility and even its validity?"

---The time difference between Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Isa was 600 yrs...is this position outlived?

"This is a real gem. I'd have thought that the Imam should be around precisely because "we are not praciticing even the basics of what shiah are suppose to".

---The Imam is your spirtual guide and guardian if you acknowledge him as that. He is position is not to force you believe this. The physical presence is needed to enact the requirements of the faith...but what is the point in that if the spirtual isn't even there yet?! This is the Twelver belief.

quote:
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---It is exactly the reason you point out "Left to themselves the bohras will not care to seek raza." The fact is the population of the twelver is huge..bohras is not. Bohras had a government system established during the Fatimi Imamate which had raza...Twelvers didn't.
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So the implementation of raza is a function of size and managibility - not of doctrinal importance?"

---No, it is a function of established control. The twelver shiah were broken away from Imam early by the ruler of various area through oppression. The population was so separated that the unity of belief of the Imam was internalized..and so a disunity of the shiah occured. This is similar to the disunity of the Ismailis in Middle Asia countries from the Cairo Imam...when the your Imam went into hiding the split occured very easily. The designated control of the bohras was maintained in Yemen and India. There was no designated control for the various shiah communities.

"Bohras have raza because we "had" a government."

--Raza is for the Imam...though the "government" may be run by the Imam. Raza goes beyond physical control.

"even so, it was never for the general public - if you have evidence to the contrary please bring it to the table. Also, as Muslim has reiterated above, raza was not instituanalised in Prophet's time and even so it was never meant for the general public."

--see my reply to Muslim.

"Could it be because they don't see raza as that important?"

---no, it is because they don't have the foot hold by the majority yet. They want to enact raza. They over the next 20-30 yrs will be going through what the bohras went through in the 50's and 60's.

"It would seem so considering that they don't have a consensus or agreement on the issue."

---What do you think will happen when they do get a consensus? Part of all this is the drive to bring unity between the shiah and sunni. The ideas is to first bring everyone into the same fold and than unify.

[Humsafar]

I know many who send ardhi to the Ayatuallah Sistani often. Even in the mosque where a resident alim or sayyid is posted raza of various actions happening in the mosque must obtained.

Ardhi is sent OFTEN. It is not a mandatory requirement and not systematically imposed and implemented the way it is for Bohras. The point I've been trying to make is that if it's not mandotary it's not important.

"The Imam is supposed to be a person, a human being in flesh and blood."

---based on what?

Based on history and common sense. All the prophets were humans and so were the imams that followed them until for some mysterious reason they went into hiding.

---these are the rights given to Imam by Allah as His representative on earth. These rights are identified in the Quran and the Prophetic traditions.

Please show where these rights are identified in the Quran.

"My being shiah or not is not relevant here."

---yes it does...it forms the level of how basic your question or answers need to be. You at one point tell me to ignore sunni shiah difference and respond as a shiah and then tell me it doesn't matter.

I do not submit to arificial constructs that define the "level of how basic" my questioning can be. Let's put it this way, I'm a seeker of knowledge and I want to question everything.

---The time difference between Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Isa was 600 yrs...is this position outlived?

The analogy of the prophet dosen't apply to the imams. First, the prophets never went into hiding. Second, there was never any regular succession of prophets the way it is for the imams.

---The Imam is your spirtual guide and guardian if you acknowledge him as that.

Fine. So why can't the raza business also remain at sipirtual level? Why it has to be "physical"?

So the implementation of raza is a function of size and managibility - not of doctrinal importance?"
---No, it is a function of established control.

That's exactly my point.

--Raza is for the Imam...though the "government" may be run by the Imam. Raza goes beyond physical control.

By your own addmission you proved that bohras had raza because they had a government and ithna asharis do have raza because they did not have a government. If raza is for the Imam then why do ithna asharis do not have it the way bohras do?

"Could it be because they don't see raza as that important?"

---no, it is because they don't have the foot hold by the majority yet. They want to enact raza. They over the next 20-30 yrs will be going through what the bohras went through in the 50's and 60's.

My point is that anything that's absolute, let's say zakat, there is no dispute about it. Ayatollahs don't struggle to have a "foothold by the majority" over the issue of zakat. Do they? What is important is obvious. What is in dispute is not important.

You did not answer my question: What do you prefer, "a confident Dai enforcing raza or doubting Ayatollahs who can't seem to agree on it"?

I think we have discussed enough on the doctrinal aspect of raza. Your doctrinal justification is very shaky at best. Yet, for argument's sake, I'll accept all that and take this discussion to the next level. Coming soon...

[Muslim]

Hur,

If your reading of the story is correct..why is Bilal chatised for selecting Umar.

"..Bilal called him to prayer, and he told *us* to order someone.." - The "us" is plural, so everyone was asked to collectively make the call, not just 1 person. Abdullah bin Zamaa (the narator) took it upon himself to select someone as he addresses himself in the first person in the story. Bilal had nothing to do with it. Why was Abdullah chastised? Abdullah said "I thought that he (Umar) was most worthy of those present to lead the prayer" - obviously the Prophet disagreed on Umar being worthy to lead the prayer.

Why was Abu Bakr even brought into the conversation.

The Prophet wanted to know where he was. Note that nowhere does the Prophet say that he chose Abu Bakr to lead the prayer and that he was angry someone else was leading it because of that.

The fact that "a number of muslims" were present doesn't mean anything...because the Prophet directed Bilal (the official muezzin) to find someone suitable to lead the prayer.

As above, Bilal alone was not asked to do anything, and he didn't, he merely called the Prophet to prayer initially.

A side note: normally in Bohras, the Imam selects the muezzin, not the other way round.

In modern sunni and shiah edict..the most senior person available would lead the prayer...without even asking someone (let alone the Prophet).

The Prophet WAS the most senior person available, that's why he was called to prayer. But because he was ill, he said it was ok for the Muslims to select someone themselves ("he told *us* to order someone to preside at prayer").

And look at Umar's reply.."When you told me to lead the prayer, I thought that the Apostle had given you orders to that effect". Why would Umar think that an order would need to be given to the lead the prayer if one is not needed???

Umar does not say he thinks an order was needed. [Even if he did, his opinion does not matter (especially for you as a Shia), its what the Prophet said that counts]. He says he thought he was *specifically* asked to lead the prayer, when he was not. In fact in the whole story nowhere does the Prophet *specifically* ask any one person to lead the prayers, but leaves this to the people who came to see him ("he told *us* to order someone to preside at prayer").

I am simply reading what is written rather than read between the lines and come up with something that is not said. And this is just one story - surely if raza is so fundamental there must be solid and overwhelming evidence not just in the seerah, but in the Quran and hadith.

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

If Imams are not flesh and blood then "What are they?"

Thanks

[Muslim]

Twelver Shiism never had a government? Never mind over 200 years of Twelver Safavid rule in Iran that firmly planted the sect there five centuries ago! Perhaps it will take another five centuries for them to realise that they are supposed to practice raza?! Please, let the kothar send some of their men to Iran to accelerate the process.

There is a simple reason why Twelvers don't practise raza and the ayatollahs dont preach raza and nobody has heard of raza in Twelverism except Hur: it doesn't exist for them.

[Muslim First]

Br. Hur /(Twin of qiyam)

I went to site of your acknowledge Marjah. Search for RAZA did not yield any results. Then I looked up qualification for Imam (prayer leader). Nowhere it is mentioned that one needs RAZA of any kind as a qualification of prayer leader.

My suggestion to you brother is stop pretending to be Twelver and own-up to be Bohra.

Check following Links:

Namaz-e-Jumuah
http://sistani.org/html/eng/main/index. ... e=3&part=1

The Imam should fulfill the necessary conditions for leading the prayers. These conditions include righteousness ('Adalat) and other qualities which are required of an Imam and which will be mentioned in connection with the congregational prayers. In absence of an Imam qualifying to lead, Namaz-e-Jumuah will not be obligatory

Qualification of an Imam of congregational prayers
http://sistani.org/html/eng/main/index. ... e=3&part=1

Wasalaam
.

[hur]

Dear Muslim, MuslimFirst and whomever else,

The following are excerpts of instructions to the governors on how to lead prayers of the areas they are in charge. Note if it were only suppose to be for any imam of prayer why is it directed to the governor's.

The following is from Najhul Balagha, direction from Imam Ali

Letter 52
"A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces.

Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Ice prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.

While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained."
------------------------------------------------

Letter 53
An order to Maalik al-Ashtar.
"Among those duties that you are to perform diligently must be your daily prayers. These should be offered sincerely and persistently. You must fix times for this during days and nights. You must tax your bodily strength for this duty though it may tire you. Your observance of prayers should be sincere and faultless and should neither be so long as to tire out those who follow you in these prayers nor so short as to be faulty and defective because amongst those who follow you during the prayers, there may be some sick persons, while others may have to attend to some important work.

When the Holy Prophet (s) sent me to Yemen I asked him how to lead the prayers. He advised me, "Offer prayers like a weak and old person and be kind to the faithful" (so that weak and old persons may follow your prayers easily and happily)."

[Humsafar]

Hur,

Here's a gist of our discussion so far - based entirely on your interpretation.

1) Raza has no doctrinal basis as it is not mentioned in the Quran ( and let me add, nor in Daim ul Islam - the source book of shiah fiqh).

2) Raza can be only evoked through sunnah i.e. by the prophet's practice and tradition.

3) Sunnis do no recognise this sunnah.

4) Shiahs apparently recognise this sunnah - but are extremely lax in its application.

5) Further you claim that raza is a "right of Imam" (you still need to show where such rights are mentioned in the Quran or elsewhere).

6) Except for Bohras, no shiah sect practices raza. And where they do it is voluntary and sporadic and it doesn't come even close to the systematic and bureaucratic manner in which the Bohra clergy imposes raza on the community.

7) Bohras have raza because they had a Fatimid government. Twelvers do not have raza because they did not have a government.

Ayatollahs can't agree whether raza is a religious requirement or not.

9) Raza is only for certain things. You spelled them out: "Naming a child, nikah, buring someone, going on Hajj or ziyarat, having a religious majalis."

10) Not seeking raza is punishable by reprimand, chchitthi band, braaat etc. all justified by prophetic/imamate tradition. (You promised to provide examples of how, why and when the Prophet and the Imams used this kind of punishment.)

11) Money has no part to play when seeking raza.

I think I've covered all the major points. Now, based on our "doctrinal" discussion, I want to pick up a specific example of how the Bohra clergy applies raza and how it fits or doesn't fit with your "doctrinal" framework.

But before I go on to that (in another post), please resolve this conundrum (puzzle) for me.

Raza is Sunnah. But Salat, Haj, Zakat, Saum, Shahda are fard.

With the exception of zakat, how come the Bohra clergy doesn't make sure that I practice all the principal tenets of Islam?

When I do not ask raza, the amil gets angry and threatens me with baraat.

When I do not pray or go on haj, the amil says nothing - or at least doesn't threaten me with baraat.

Why is he fixated on raza when it is only sunnah?

Even if I concede with you that raza is as important as the five pillars, why doesn't he give equal imortance to the other four pillars (zakat being an exception)?

[hur]

Dear Muslim,
In relation to the hadith I posted, the following hadith is more detail and clear.

Sahih Bukhari, v1, h 681
Narrated 'Aisha:
When Allah's Apostle became seriously ill, Bilal came to him for the prayer. He said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in the prayer." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Abu Bakr is a soft-hearted man and if he stands in your place, he would not be able to make the people hear him. Will you order 'Umar (to lead the prayer)?" The Prophet said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in the prayer." Then I said to Hafsa, "Tell him, Abu i Bakr is a soft-hearted man and if he stands in his place, he would not be able to make the people hear him. Would you order 'Umar to lead the prayer?' " Hafsa did so. The Prophet said, "Verily you are the companions of Joseph. Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in the prayer." So Abu- Bakr stood for the prayer. In the meantime Allah's Apostle felt better and came out with the help of two persons and both of his legs were dragging on the ground till he entered the mosque. When Abu Bakr heard him coming, he tried to retreat but Allah's Apostle beckoned him to carry on. The Prophet sat on his left side. Abu Bakr was praying while standing and Allah's Apostle was leading the prayer while sitting. Abu Bakr was following the Prophet and the people were following Abu Bakr (in the prayer).

---there are several points here..which apply to the other hadith as well.

1. In this hadith..though a similar circumstance..Bilal is a alone and comes to ask the Prophet.

2. Now, regardless of seniority, the Prophet was not in the mosque..but at his home. According to current fiqh, the muslims would have selected the senior of those present in the mosque.

3. The Prophet specifically selected someone...again why would he need to or insist on someone if the principle of selecting the senior in knowledge in the group at the mosque??

4.) When the Prophet was feeling better he joined the prayer...but took over as the Imam of prayer from Abu Bakr. This is unheard of in current fiqh. The Prophet..according to current fiqh..would have not prayed jamat or prayed behind Abu Bakr!

Your wrote:
"The Prophet wanted to know where he (Abu Bakr)was. Note that nowhere does the Prophet say that he chose Abu Bakr to lead the prayer and that he was angry someone else was leading it because of that."

----"So I went out and there was Umar with the people, but Abu Bakr was not there."
Again, if what you say is correct that the Prophet said pick anyone to lead, why does narrotor note anything about Abu Bakr?
"..the Apostle heard his (Umar's) voice, for he had a powerful voice, and he asked where Abu Bakr was, saying twice over, "God and the Muslims forbid that." Why is the Prophet saying Allah and muslim forbid that..."that" being Umar leading the prayer? From this statement..the Prophet was definitely upset at the person that let Umar lead the prayer.

"The Prophet WAS the most senior person available"

--the Prophet wasn't in the mosque...so no he wasn't the most senior available.

"But because he was ill, he said it was ok for the Muslims to select someone themselves ("he told *us* to order someone to preside at prayer")."

--If your theory is true...why did they need the permission of the Prophet to pick someone else? Why didn't they just pick the person with qualification amongst themselves?

"Umar does not say he thinks an order was needed."

---.."When you told me to lead the prayer, I thought that the Apostle had given you orders to that effect". Last time I checked..."I thought" is the past tense of "I think".

"In fact in the whole story nowhere does the Prophet *specifically* ask any one person to lead the prayers, but leaves this to the people who came to see him.."

---So why is the Prophet angered that Umar lead the prayer and had Abu Bakr complete the following prayer? Why did Bilal know to go get Abu Bakr right away to preside?

These are things that shouldn't happen if anyone of the minimum qualifications can be elected to lead the prayer.

"if raza is so fundamental there must be solid and overwhelming evidence not just in the seerah, but in the Quran and hadith."

---Raza is all over the place it is covered in almost every aspect of islamic life and manner. There is no specific section in book on raza...but it is clear that it is there.

[Humsafar]

Hur, I want to add one more point to the above puzzle.

Raza is Imam's right. The five pillars are Allah's requirement.

The bohra clergy is meticulous in enforcing the Imam's right but doesn't enforce Allah's prescription.

Does the bohra clergy think that Imam is more important than Allah?

[hur]

Humsafar,

1) Raza has no doctrinal basis as it is not mentioned in the Quran ( and let me add, nor in Daim ul Islam - the source book of shiah fiqh).

---Obey Allah, His Messenger, and those of knowledge (the Imams). Asking permission for acting or doing things are exampled in the Quran and sunnah.

2) Raza can be only evoked through sunnah i.e. by the prophet's practice and tradition.
---Sunnah is wajib for the believer.

3) Sunnis do no recognise this sunnah.
---as the shiahs they do not.

4) Shiahs apparently recognise this sunnah - but are extremely lax in its application.
--yes.

5) Further you claim that raza is a "right of Imam" (you still need to show where such rights are mentioned in the Quran or elsewhere).

---Actually I did..risalat huquq or najul balagah

6) Except for Bohras, no shiah sect practices raza. And where they do it is voluntary and sporadic and it doesn't come even close to the systematic and bureaucratic manner in which the Bohra clergy imposes raza on the community.

---they do but not like the bohras.

7) Bohras have raza because they had a Fatimid government. Twelvers do not have raza because they did not have a government.

--bohra have it because it was established by the Fatimis and continued to the Dai in Yemen and India. Twelvers don't because the Safavids (for Br. Muslim) were the rulers who adopted only portions of shiah theology and fiqh to suit there needs. Safavids were more sufi in nature and the leader Ismail claimed to be the hidden Imam. Later this title switch to the shiah ulama (which is heretical itself also).

Ayatollahs can't agree whether raza is a religious requirement or not.

---as a marajah, it is their own ijtahad and fatwa. No marajah can technically say another is wrong.

9) Raza is only for certain things. You spelled them out: "Naming a child, nikah, buring someone, going on Hajj or ziyarat, having a religious majalis."

---these are the things my bohra friend told me it was required for. If there are others...please note them.

10) Not seeking raza is punishable by reprimand, chchitthi band, braaat etc. all justified by prophetic/imamate tradition. (You promised to provide examples of how, why and when the Prophet and the Imams used this kind of punishment.)

---I will.

11) Money has no part to play when seeking raza.
---money is not a requirement..if you choose to give..it is on you.

"With the exception of zakat, how come the Bohra clergy doesn't make sure that I practice all the principal tenets of Islam?"

--Everything that effects the community is made sure of...don't you think. Salat is for you, zakat is both individual and communal, haj is for you and communal (when you go aren't you going through the clergy), shahadah is the mithaq (correct?).

"Even if I concede with you that raza is as important as the five pillars, why doesn't he give equal imortance to the other four pillars (zakat being an exception)?"

---firstly I never said raza is equivalent to the pillars. It is sunnah and is wajib. Belief in the pillars make you a muslim...belief in raza (the sunnahs) makes you a mumin.

[Muslim]

Hur,

The following are excerpts of instructions to the governors on how to lead prayers of the areas they are in charge. Note if it were only suppose to be for any imam of prayer why is it directed to the governor's.

Imam Ali wrote letters to governors on alot of things, Nahjul Balagha is full of them. I don't know how you can jump from that to assuming that only governors can lead the prayers. The prophet sent one governor to Yemen. Now are you telling me all the towns and cities in the whole of Yemen, only one person could lead the prayer?

Is there any commandment that only the governor or appointee can lead the prayer otherwise the prayer is invalid? No. Why would the Prophet or Imam Ali miss out something so important?! Again, look at what is actually said, rather than reading between the lines and creating your own opinion.

---there are several points here..which apply to the other hadith as well.

1. In this hadith..though a similar circumstance..Bilal is a alone and comes to ask the Prophet.

They don't refer to similar circumstances, they refer to the SAME THING, the events leading up to the Prophets death and the arguments surrounding who should succeed him, this is what the Restatement of Islam it talking about (the first hadith you quoted).

So you quote me two hadith which contradict each other. And this last one... you are a Shia, and you are arguing with another Shia using a questionable hadith from Sunni Bukhari narrated by none other than the reliable daughter of Abu Bakr, Aisha. What do you want me to tell you?

2. Now, regardless of seniority, the Prophet was not in the mosque..but at his home. According to current fiqh, the muslims would have selected the senior of those present in the mosque.

Did the Prophet ever declare that the prayer is invalid unless he gave the permission to lead it? If not, then its equally possible that the people (or person) came to the Prophet expecting him to come to the mosque (like he normally did) and not knowing he was ill.. as its possible that they came because they needed raza. Neither argument can be proven from the hadith, its mere assumption.

--If your theory is true...why did they need the permission of the Prophet to pick someone else?

How can you assume they NEEDED permission? It's equally possible they asked him out of respect and since they had come to enquire after him.. he IS the prophet after all?

"Umar does not say he thinks an order was needed."

---.."When you told me to lead the prayer, I thought that the Apostle had given you orders to that effect". Last time I checked..."I thought" is the past tense of "I think".

Does this sound better: "Umar does not say *he thought* an order was needed."
Aren't you being silly now?

---So why is the Prophet angered that Umar lead the prayer and had Abu Bakr complete the following prayer? Why did Bilal know to go get Abu Bakr right away to preside?

I already answered you in my previous post. I can tell you my opinion again, but I am talking about what is actually written, but I dont want to argue about something based on my opinion of why Umar said this and why Bilal did that, etc etc. That is very shaky ground for either of us to stand on.

---Raza is all over the place it is covered in almost every aspect of islamic life and manner. There is no specific section in book on raza...but it is clear that it is there.

Hur, get real, you are trying to preach Bohras about raza when not even your own ayatollahs preach it? Read up Muslim First's links, in the qualifications of an imam nowhere does it say you need raza from an ayatollah to lead prayers. If it is required, why did Sistani or Khui forget to add it?

If raza was required for congregational prayers without which it would be invalid, then this condition would be plainly put to us in the Quran. But its not. Or there would be plainly be a case where the Prophet stated that congregational prayers are invalid unless HE has appointed the imam. But there isn't.

Your idea of raza as far as I can tell is based on your opinion and your selective interpretation of certains hadiths, not on what is actually and plainly stated.

That is all I have to say on this.

Abde seyedna,

Please get raza before you do lanat.