Raza

[Humsafar]

Hur,

You failed to answer my question:

What do you prefer: "a confident Dai enforcing raza or doubting Ayatollahs who can't seem to agree on it"?

5) Further you claim that raza is a "right of Imam" (you still need to show where such rights are mentioned in the Quran or elsewhere).

---Actually I did..risalat huquq or najul balagah

Quoting najul balagah is not valid here. It's like an Imam conferring rights on himself. The point is where did the prophet or the quran sanction such rights for the Imam.

6) Except for Bohras, no shiah sect practices raza. And where they do it is voluntary and sporadic and it doesn't come even close to the systematic and bureaucratic manner in which the Bohra clergy imposes raza on the community.

---they do but not like the bohras.

Why not?

"With the exception of zakat, how come the Bohra clergy doesn't make sure that I practice all the principal tenets of Islam?"

--Everything that effects the community is made sure of...don't you think. Salat is for you, zakat is both individual and communal, haj is for you and communal (when you go aren't you going through the clergy), shahadah is the mithaq (correct?).

No, I don't think so. Everything that affects the finances and authority of the clergy is made sure of. Even going by your justification, if zakat is communal - can you tell us how the clergy spends it on the community. Haj is never enforced the way raza is. Why? And, no Shahda is not mithaq. Don't tell me you Twelvers believe in that too - but don't practice it. ( Anyway leave it for another discussion.)

Even so, raza is also for the individual (and his Imam). How can it be communal? So by your logic, if it's not communal it doesn't have to be enforced. But it is. Why?

[Africawala]

Dear Hur,

I think you forgot to answer me, or may be I did not see your response.

What is Imam, if he is not flesh and blood?

Another new question,

How is shahada considered to be Mithaq? Because when the Bohoras take Mithaq, it is totally a different thing, like pledging everything to the Dai and nothing to Allah or the Prophet. Thanks.

Thanks

[hur]

Dear Muslim,
The reason the governor is given these letter is to have direction on the performance. He than choices other individuals to handle the specific cities and towns and related this info in the same manner. Just as the Imam is responsible for the governor..so the governor is responsible for those below him. This is very well documented in these same letter (even in the letters I referenced).

You need to look at all the proof in front of you and make a complete picture and not look at one little instance and limit your vision on that. This applies to Quran, traditions and history. To look for a specific commandment is like looking for a specific word and unless you find that word..the concept is void. Even if that same concept is explained in a thousand different ways with other words.

Regarding the hadith...actually they refer to very similar situation with similar characters. The second hadith is from the same time period of the Prophet's life. And they don't conflict but compliment...one reiterating what the other say (though not clearly enough).

The fact that the hadith is from sunni text is a weak argument. The same hadith is in Bihar al'Anwar from Imam Jafar Sadiq (which is not internet available).

"Did the Prophet ever declare that the prayer is invalid unless he gave the permission to lead it? Neither argument can be proven from the hadith, its mere assumption."

--was the Prophet upset that someone other than the person he selected would lead the prayer? Yes. The would mean that no one except whom the Prophet approve could lead the prayer. You really believe Bilal didn't know the Prophet was ill?! You think he didn't know from the prayer before? Remember Bilal asked the Prophet if he "will order Umar (to lead)"? Why would he ask the Prophet for someone to lead? These are all question you should be asking if your theory is true.

"It's equally possible they asked him out of respect and since they had come to enquire after him.. he IS the prophet after all?"

---yes he is...and as the leader of that community and he should be asked. This however goes against the common practice of selecting the imam of prayer amongst those that are in the mosque.

Why would Imam Ali need to write an official letter to his governors on how to lead prayer (including identification of spans of time) if it was suppose to be up to the people in the mosque to pick the imam?

Permission is a practice of manner and rights.

You don't have the right to enter your father's home unless you announce yourself and he give you permission. It is your father home..the place you grew up.

You don't have the right to speak unless the elder relative gives you permission to speak.

You don't have the right to call the azan (as you say) unless the imam of prayer gives you permission.

You are to obey the Imam in all cases. The appoints people as governors and caretaker with the same rights of civility you would give to the Imam.

The Prophet position..you would first asks the Prophet to lead prayer or wait for him to appoint someone....would you not ask the governor or amils out of that same respect?

[Muslim First]

Br.Hur/qiyam light

You did not address my point or did not get it.

Here is qualification of Imam to lead congregational prayers from http://sistani.org/html/eng/main/index. ... e=3&part=1
-----------
Qualification of an Imam of congregational prayers

1462. The Imam of the congregational prayers should be:

Adult (Baligh)
Sane
Ithna 'Ashari Shi'ah
'Adil
Of legitimate birth
Being able to offer the prayers correctly
Furthermore, if the follower is a male, the Imam also should be a male. To follow a boy of ten years of age is a matter of Ishkal.

1463. If a person who once considered an Imam to be 'Adil, doubts whether he continues to be 'Adil, he can follow him.

1464. A person who offers prayers standing, cannot follow a person who offers his prayers while sitting or lying, and a person who offers his prayers while sitting, cannot follow a person who offers his prayers while lying.

1465. A person who offers prayers sitting, can follow another person who offers his prayers while sitting. But if a person offers prayers while lying, for him to follow a person who offers prayers in sitting or lying position is a matter of Ishkal.

1466. If Imam, because of some justified excuse, leads the prayers in a najis dress, or with tayammum, or jabira Wudhu, it is permissible to follow him.

1467. If Imam is suffering from incontinence, whereby he cannot control his urine or excretion, it is permissible to follow him. Moreover, a woman, who is not mustahaza can follow a woman who is mustahaza.

1468. It is better that a person who suffers from blotches or leprosy does not lead the congregational prayers, and, on the basis of obligatory precaution, a person who has been subjected to Islamic punishment should not be followed.
--------------

No were here mentioned that he must have RAZA from Imaam (Ali’s decedents) or his representative.

In Bohra version of Islam you cannot lead prayer unless you have RAZA , nor Kothari Bohra will pray behind someone without RAZA .

Wasalaam
.

[khan19922001]

Hur wrote/quoted from Hazrat Ali instruciton to the Governers about the prayers. It is very intersting to note that the Hazrat Ali gave very clear instructions about the five prayers and their different timings. So why do Bohri's and Shia combine the zuhr/Asr and Maghreb/Isha prayers.

As I have noted Bohra's have twisted and turned Islam to a point where it has become a cult with no real essence and meaning. They have done with the jumma prayers, the first thing that created doubt in my mind about this whole philosophy. Interestingly my friends father showed me some very old "sahifah" of the Bohra clan where the Firday prayers procedures were outline and it was exactly the way the mainstream muslims practice it. Over the years, in addtion to other things, this prayer was changed, probably to make sure that the Bohris never ever join the mainstraeam muslims in their mosques.

[Muslim First]

Br. Khan

I noticed that too.

May be you want to open new topic and post the letter from Ali RA.

Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

Hur,

Now that Moharrum is over, can we resume this discussion. Pls answer the questions I posed in my previous posts.

[Al-Muizz]

Let me get this straight. You guys are "Reformists" who want to be part of the "mainstream" Bohras, but do not want to give Missaq to the Dai, or even listen to what he says.

Well---what aer you guys then? You don't see Hindus singing in a Church, do you? I think you guys need to form your own little religious organization, because you can't have it both ways.

As for which rules you want to follow, and which you don't-Eventually, Islam is about Faith between you and God. If you want to lie to yourself that all's peachy, go ahead. Only you and your Maker will settle that when you're 6 feet under!

Maasalaam!

[khan19922001]

Dear Al-Muizz

I don't think anybody wants to be a "mainstream" Bohra and remain a reformist. I do not profess to speak for all, but as far as I am concerned, I cannot find any reason for staying in a system (Bohri) which I cannot understand or appreciate. So the next step was to walk out and join the "mainstream" muslims. I don't agree with any of the Bohri rituals and I don't therefore follow it. I don't curse the Dai or the Bohra beliefs as I believe that religion is a personal issue and everyone has been given the reasoning to accept or reject what ever he likes.

My Bohri friends now know this. Some have distanced themselves and some don't really care. I am not going around upsetting the Kothar or other Bohris as I don't beleive it will serve any purpose. If someone willingly wants to follow the dictates of this system, why stop him.

Regards

[JC]

RAZA and TASWEER-E-BURHAN

I have following observations/questions:

A. Do we need Raza for sleeping with a partner? And do we need to keep a photo below the pillow or mattress???

I guess YES, it is then Mazay kay Mazay aur Sawab ka Sawab .... !!!!!

B. Do we need the same if one is interested in doing it from 'backdoor'..???

No idea, but i guess Raza and photo should make it OK. May be Thora Zeeyada Maza and Thora Kum Sawab ....!!!!!

C. What if partners are of same-sex...????

No idea, burhan has not spoken on this subject yet. May be yes, may be no. Has someone asked for Raza ..????

To me if it is between a bohra and a bohra it should be OK WITH Raza, and people! remember to keep tasweer under the pillow..!!!
If it is b/w a bohra and non-bohra, then you have problem ....!!!!! No raza, no maza. No photo tau u r a phatoo ...!!!!