Aga Khan sues 2 of his own followers in Canada

[porus]

anajmi,

Issue of grammar is that male plural accusatives and verbs are used when referring to men and women together. This applies to Quran as well as to Arabic in general.

The second part of the ayat refers exclusively to Panjatan when you consider the reason for its revelation.

As far as I know, Prophet's wives have never been referred to as Ahl-ul-bayt in the Quran.

Also, as far as I know, the only other place Quran refers to the phrase 'ahl-ul-bayt' is in ayat 11:73, where Allah's envoys are addressing Nabi Ibrahim and his wife. However, there is no reference to tat'heer in that ayat, nor is it associated with any hadith similar to that of the cloak.

Wife is included in several ayats referring to Nabi Lut's ahl. But in this case, the phrase ahl-ul-bayt has never been used, just ahla-hu, meaning his people. One of these ayats is 29:32. In this case wife of Lut is mentioned as part of his ahl. However, it states that she was not one of the favored ones of Allah and was doomed.

[anajmi]

porus,

What does ahl-ul-bayt literally mean? It just means people of the house.

As far as I know, Prophet's wives have never been referred to as Ahl-ul-bayt in the Quran.

Neither are Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain or Hazrat Fatima.

ahl-ul-bayt means people of the house. If the quran doesn't clarify who is a part of the ahl-ul-bayt, then the simplest explanation of the word has to be the right one. And the simplest explanation of the the word ahl-ul-bayt cannot exclude the wives as the wives are part of the household. The ayah itself doesn't indicate any exclusions. However, if the simplest explanation is not good enough, then you have to go to different hadiths and different ayahs and come up with convoluted and complicated interpretations and explanations.

The hadith of the cloak simply demonstrates that even though they haven't been explicitly mentioned as ahl-ul-bayt, Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain or Hazrat Fatima are still a part of ahl-ul-bayt.

I looked at the translations and interpretations I have, including Asad and Arberry. No one mentions any exclusions indicated in that ayah.

[porus]

We have to agree that the Shia and Sunni differ in their interpretations. I, personally, find the Shia interpretation more palatable. However, Allah knows best.

I have said all I want to say on this issue of ahl-ul-bayt.

[anajmi]

Yes. Allah knows best. Thanks.

[porus]

As far as I know, Prophet's wives have never been referred to as Ahl-ul-bayt in the Quran.

Neither are Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain or Hazrat Fatima.

In my eagerness to end discussion with anajmi, I missed the above response from him.

While Muhammad Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain are not explicitly mentioned in the Quran as ahl-ul-bayt, Prophet has identified them as such without any ambiguity in the hadith of the cloak.

It is truism that one of the foremost clarifications of the words of the Quran are to be sought in the Sayings of the Prophet. And Prophet has spoken as to who the ahl-ul-bayt are.

I would like to respond further to kilimanjaro's post, but first, I must dispense with this aside on ayat 33::33. For that, I will give anajmi a chance to respond if he wishes.

[anajmi]

porus,

I have already agreed with you that prophet's hadith indicates that Hazrat Ali's household is also included as a part of ahlu-ul-bayt. The point of contention is whether the wives of the prophet are excluded as per the ayah of the Quran. They are not. Only shia interpretations exclude the wives. The Quran itself does not. And remember, if you find a hadith that the prophet has excluded his wives, then that hadith is contradicting the Quran. And any hadith that contradicts the Quran can be safely rejected as a fabrication.

[porus]

porus,

I have already agreed with you that prophet's hadith indicates that Hazrat Ali's household is also included as a part of ahlu-ul-bayt. The point of contention is whether the wives of the prophet are excluded as per the ayah of the Quran. They are not. Only shia interpretations exclude the wives. The Quran itself does not. And remember, if you find a hadith that the prophet has excluded his wives, then that hadith is contradicting the Quran. And any hadith that contradicts the Quran can be safely rejected as a fabrication.

The Shia article at the following link shows, from Sunni sources, quoting three of Prophet's wives, Aisha, Umm Salama and Safiyya, clearly demonstrating who ahl-ul-bayt are. The wives exclude themselves from ahl-ul-bayt of the Prophet.

Is Prophet contradicting the Quran? What do you think?

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1a/3.html

[anajmi]

porus,

In the link that you have provided, the author says this

From the verse 33:33 alone, we can not conclude that the wives of the Prophet are not included in Ahlul-Bayt.

Do you agree with the author?

[porus]

porus,

In the link that you have provided, the author says this

From the verse 33:33 alone, we can not conclude that the wives of the Prophet are not included in Ahlul-Bayt.

Do you agree with the author?

I do. That is why I have always said that you need to include the hadith of the cloak to exclude the wives from ahl-ul-bayt.

[anajmi]

porus,

I have nothing more to add. Thanks

[rania]

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1a/3.html

I wonder why the ' Sunnis ' don't refer to their own books which they call ' authentic ' ?


Sunni reference:

* Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

[Muslim First]

Prophet’s Wives are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/wives

Prophet’s Daughters are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/daughters

Word Games With Verse 33:33
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/word-games

Half Hadith-ing (Zaid ibn Arqam)
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/arqam

The Status of Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/status

And more at
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles

[porus]

Wahhabi alert

Muslim First's links are to a Wahhabi website. Wahhabis, the true lovers of ahl-el-bayt? Duh!

[anajmi]

porus,

The website is quoting the Quran and hadith. Hadith from the same people that you've quoted to prove your point. Wahhabis do not hate the ahle bayt. That is a shia cop out. However, the shias do hate the wives of the prophet.

[Muslim First]

Wahhabi alert

Muslim First's links are to a Wahhabi website. Wahhabis, the true lovers of ahl-el-bayt? Duh!

Porus

The articles has linked left you tongue tied!

You really have no defence against logical discussion based on Qur'ans Hadith. Your inbred love for Ahl-e-bait has put blinders on your eyes and no matter what, you will remain forever blind.

The Status of Ahlel Bayt

All Muslims believe in respecting the Ahlel Bayt. However, many Shia espouse a viewpoint that goes against the Islamic concepts of egalitarianism and is a rejection of Quranic exhortations. The Shia believe that the Prophet’s descendants will be automatically granted a high rank and status based on their familial connection to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). They believe that nobody can attain the rank of these “Syedis” simply because they were not born to the Prophet’s family, and this is why Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) to them is forever inferior to Ali (رضّى الله عنه). The Shia say that the only ones who are allowed to be the Imams and leaders of the Muslims are those who come from the lineage of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). It seems to us that it would not be an exaggeration to say that the Shia believe that the Prophet’s descendants are automatically superior to everyone else based on their lineage.

The reality, however, is that a person’s lineage and birth has no bearing on his rank and station on earth in the eyes of Allah. The only criterion which decides a person’s rank and station is a person’s Taqwa (piety). The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) spoke well of the Ahlel Bayt and Ahlel Kisa (People of the Cloak) not because they were related to him, but rather because these people had great Taqwa. The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) knew them personally and he experienced their dedication to Islam first-hand. As such, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) could vouch for them. The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) also complimented his Sahabah (Companions), the Ansar (Helpers), Muhajiroon (Immigrants), and many other groups of people. When the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) complimented the Muhajiroon, he did not do so simply because they were part of a certain Meccan tribe, but rather because they had great Taqwa. The same holds true for the Ansar, the Sahabah, and anyone else.

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) used Ahlel Bayt as a description to denote that these family members had great Taqwa. For example, if a person has a very pious uncle, he would say “my uncle has Taqwa; you should respect my uncle!” This does not mean that he has selected his uncle simply because he is a biological uncle, but rather because the uncle has Taqwa. Had his uncle been a sinful and distasteful person then he would have said that he has no relation to his uncle. Likewise, we are respecting the Ahlel Bayt not simply because they are related to the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), but rather only because they had a great deal of Taqwa.

The Quran repeatedly holds each individual responsible for his or her own conduct. The actions of one soul cannot affect another, neither positively nor negatively. To do so would go against the egalitarian spirit of Islam, and would instead be a reflection of Jahiliyyah custom in which people thought they would be saved based on their familial connections as opposed to their Taqwa.


Read on for rest of article
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/status

[Muslim First]

Correction

The articles has linked left you tongue tied!

Should read

The linked article has left you Tongue tied!

[porus]

Wahhabi alert

Muslim First's links are to a Wahhabi website. Wahhabis, the true lovers of ahl-el-bayt? Duh!

Porus

The linked article has left you Tongue tied!

You really have no defence against logical discussion based on Qur'ans Hadith. Your inbred love for Ahl-e-bait has put blinders on your eyes and no matter what, you will remain forever blind.

Yes, Sayyid Wahhabi Lite. Why don't you take your Wahhabism away to a Wahhabi site. Every moment you will be able to glorify Wahhabism. Thank Allah for Abdul Wahhab, Sayed Qutb and Abu Ala Maududi who showed us the way to teach these God-forsaken Shi'ites lessons they will not forget and we will have the pleasure of seeing them burning in hell.

Hell! Let us help Allah and send them to hell right here right now. We will start with bombing their Masjids, especially during Muharram when they are practicing their nefarious shirk by worshiping ahl-ul-bayt. Quran only asks us to love them, but these Shi'ites; they have crossed all boundaries and are completely blinded in their love for ahl-ul-bait. They believe that they are partners with Allah. Shirk: Shirk! Shirk!

[Muslim First]

Porus

Nowhere on those links it says it is Wahabi site and nowhere Abdul Wahab or Maudidi is mentioned.

Do not go to last defense of Scoundral!! Wahabi light-Wahabi light.

It does no credit to learned person like you.

Hell! Let us help Allah and send them to hell right here right now. We will start with bombing their Masjids, especially during Muharram when they are practicing their nefarious shirk by worshiping ahl-ul-bayt. Quran only asks us to love them, but these Shi'ites; they have crossed all boundaries and are completely blinded in their love for ahl-ul-bait. They believe that they are partners with Allah.

YOU SAID IT NOT MUSLIM FIRST OR ANAJMI

Shirk: Shirk! Shirk!

May be it is

Shirk light
ShirkLight
!Shirk Light

[porus]

Porus

Nowhere on those links it says it is Wahabi site and nowhere Abdul Wahab or Maudidi is mentioned.

That is why I call you Wahhabi Lite.

If you are a fully fledged Wahhabi scholar, the site needs your support. They are on the look-out for backing from Sunni Scholars.

Have you cliicked the 'About' link on their site?

And do Wahhabis ever mention Abdul Wahhab? Please enlighten us with your knowledge.

[Muslim First]

The hadith of the cloak simply demonstrates that even though they haven't been explicitly mentioned as ahl-ul-bayt, Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain or Hazrat Fatima are still a part of ahl-ul-bayt.

Guess who is only witness and prime narrator of this Hadith

It is Aisha RA.

Why do they depend and found their fundamental belief on words of so called lier and Munafican?

Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEz7x0P8 ... re=related

[porus]

Porus

Nowhere on those links it says it is Wahabi site and nowhere Abdul Wahab or Maudidi is mentioned.

That is why I call you Wahhabi Lite.

If you are a fully fledged Wahhabi scholar, the site needs your support. They are on the look-out for backing from Sunni Scholars.

Have you cliicked the 'About' link on their site?

And do Wahhabis ever mention Abdul Wahhab? Please enlighten us with your knowledge.

By the way, to become respectable, Wahhabis go by other names like al-Muwahiddun, al-Salaf al-Salih, ahl al-Hadith etc

[porus]

The hadith of the cloak simply demonstrates that even though they haven't been explicitly mentioned as ahl-ul-bayt, Hazrat Ali, Hassan, Hussain or Hazrat Fatima are still a part of ahl-ul-bayt.

Guess who is only witness and prime narrator of this Hadith

It is Aisha RA.

Why do they depend and found their fundamental belief on words of so called lier and Munafican?

Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEz7x0P8 ... re=related

Now, now, dear Sayyid Wahhabi Lite, we must not accuse our Shi'ite brothers, whom we love so dearly, of relying on Aisha (ra). They have their own sources. They believe every word from the so called Panjatan like it is from God. We, Wahhabis, are different. We believe every word from the hadith that we approve like it is from God. Those we do not approve, even if other so-called Sunnis agree to it, we call them work of Shaytan, just like we call all Shi'ite hadiths.

[rania]

Prophet’s Wives are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/wives

Prophet’s Daughters are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/daughters

Word Games With Verse 33:33
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/word-games

Half Hadith-ing (Zaid ibn Arqam)
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/arqam

The Status of Ahlel Bayt
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/ahlel-bayt/status

And more at
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles

Do any of the above links contain a ' Rebuttal ' of the below mentioned Sunni Reference ?

Sunni reference:

* Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

[anajmi]

And do Wahhabis ever mention Abdul Wahhab? Please enlighten us with your knowledge.

This is like chit main jeeta pat tu haara. If they mention Abdul Wahhab, then they are wahhabi and if they don't mention Abdul Wahhab, then they are still wahhabi!! Is that the kind of logic that you use to label people as wahhabis? That is no different from a wahahbi claiming that the Shias worship ahle bayt by saying - "Will the shias ever mention that they worship ahle bayt?"

[accountability]

I came accross a very intresting article, Agha Khan is suing his own follower for publishing his farman and talikas.

http://www.vancouverite.com/2010/04/23/ ... ral-court/

But one thing different is, he has not excomminucated the follower or forbid the person from attending anything. May be there is a lesson to be learnt.

[Muslim First]

Copyright Lawsuit: Imam Appears for Discovery and Ends the Case - 2010-10-15
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/30450