Why are you trying to reform us?

[Jamali]

Asalam Alaikum Mr. Aziz and brother Porus,

Thank you for those interesting comments.

Mr. Aziz Kindly be informed that i didnt turn around to say that Islam should not have boycotts because TRUE ISLAM does not have ANY excommunication /Social Boycotts and Forced Upon Contributions!! My point I was making was you COMPARED yourself and JUSTIFIED your actions with all religions other than Islam!!!

Secondly Mr. Aziz please clarify and confirm the following for us and as we understand how you perceive the community teachings to be :

1. You agree that Wajeebaat, Zakat, Sabeel (all differently DEMANDED but in your terms all one Zakat!) is part of the practice of Bohris and since you practice the followings of the Aqa Maula, those are his desires and his appointed representatives at the local level "act" in accordance to his actions? He is the one who directs this and you agree that it is done with his knowledge and desires.Also in your context your "Zakats" are FIXED (as the Amils decide the amounts to be paid every year) and not based upon the teachings of Islam where you pay 2.5% of YOUR ACTUAL income! (This can help alot of your own members as they feel that the "Dai" has no knowledge as such of these things and he is told only of good things! )
2. You have also confirmed Ex-Communication / Social Boycott as a necessary tool used by your community. Its used to instill the sense of "FEAR" where whatever said by the "Royal Family" is final without any compromise. The people of the community have no right to question anything and do as has been ordered or get kicked out. (aka slavery of the modern world)
3. The universal context of Vasila as asking someone closer to Allah to pray for you (as defined by Porus which is I totally agree by the way!) is by virtue extended to every aspect of your daily living to making decisions right from a birth of a Child such as naming him to which school he should go to /business to run / whether to accept certain jobs / do certain dealings / Marriage/ Illness eradication etc... The point is when you start asking the "Royal Family" everything before you even contemplate to do it then where does the fine line of asking for prayers / worship get differentiated?
4. Another point which u made was reformists hating the "Maula" hence why associate with them? How ironical it is that not "everyone" hates him but just because you have been excommunicated because of non payment you are branded as such. Sometimes some accept him as a religious leader but we cannot accept unjust practices which are carried out under his name by Amils and his goons. In the forum we have your own members like the Bensaheba who portray this dilemmas but FEAR people like you who cant see the truth bout the "rot" in your system and continue to support these systems or probably are part of the very system doing injustice to the community at large.
5. Mr. Aziz by turning a blind eye doesnt make you more of a Bohri than a reformist who has left the community because of unjust practices. How ironical your claim to be the supporter and lover of the Dai and the Dawat when the very actions of your respected "Dai" like dislike of Fixed Salaams (examples of which are well portrayed by the bensaheba) are not followed. What kind of a follower are you when you claim to be a follower of the "Aqa maula" but accept mis-representation of the same leader by fellow followers and his goons and allow fellow community members to suffer...Your faith and following is highly questionable Mr. Aziz!!!!

Brother Porus...Thank you for those informative comments. I admire the way you justify your points based on the teachings of the Holy Quran which should rightfully be unlike some others who follow blindly a faith and following, without analyzing their own actions but contradicting their own spiritual beliefs!!

Mr. Porus you have mentioned Shirk and Vasila in a very fine context. My dilemma is the concept of a "follower" and a "worshipper?" Just because one says he doesnt "worship" someone or something, but participates in all actions related to worshipping makes him a follower?? How do distinguish the same?

You talk about making about associations of being a partner to God as SHIRK. I truly agree to that definition. Again the same dilemma arises. You, I am sure believe in Almighty Allah as being the supreme being and the provider for ALL including "Aqa Maula". He himself bows down to him in Prayer and Worships Almighty Allah and ask for his blessings to be bestowed to him and his followers.. You agree that if you have to bow down or perform "Sajda" then it is only to Allah. That is a universal association to Allah and how can u perform an action meant only for Almighty Allah to another human being who WAS also created by ALLAH and who also bows down to his creator and say its "out of respect" and not related as such. Isn't that Partisian beliefs that you practice???

Mr. Porus, Honestly tell me certain practices and teachings that the community members carry out in the name of "Vasila" and infact in general living, are not akin to SHIRK. SHIRK isnt always only admission but also actions and beliefs that are akin to such. Watch today how the Bohris behave in the presence of Maula with their head down, hands held like the Hindus when praying and its members performing Sajdas and bowing down whenever he is present or when he passes by the roads. "If Maula is a pious and religious man that has been sent out to "look after his flock" why is it that you have to pay to see him?? Why is it that you have to pay for him to visit you and "bless" your house? Why does he have to decide the name of your children at birth? Why is it that now every Bohri Child carries a photo of him to school and kisses the photo before writing an exam asking him to make him pass. Why is it that in the Bohri Community and the lives of its members; the name of the Maula is mentioned more times than the name of Almighty ALLAH? Why is it any good deed or happening is attributed to "Maula ni Barkaat"? Visit a Bohri household and you will see a large life size photo of Maula and the phrase " Yah Maula" being mentioned everytime an exclamation is made! Its very rare to find the phrase "Ya Allah" mentioned nowadays.

If these practices are not akin to worship then the word needs to be redefined!
My brothers...If a sect or "religion" is based on such virtues then its a "Club" and not a religion. I dont think faith and following has a price to it and neither has a true religion like Islam, defined it as such. Mr Porus u seem well versed with the Quranic teachings and have displayed a following of such. Can you justify the same practices followed by the community as such?

[porus]

My dilemma is the concept of a "follower" and a "worshipper?" Just because one says he doesnt "worship" someone or something, but participates in all actions related to worshipping makes him a follower?? How do distinguish the same?

I use the word 'worship' as a description of formal rituals. When you worship you perform rituals like namaaz. To 'follow' means to take the lead of a person whom you believe to be the right Guide. In namaaz, you follow the Prophet and other hudaat-kiraam. In other things you follow the Quran. You do not worship the Quran. Allah asks you to take responsibility for your actions and the choice of whom you follow. If you find that your Guide violates the teaching of the Quran, you stop following him.

You agree that if you have to bow down or perform "Sajda" then it is only to Allah. That is a universal association to Allah and how can u perform an action meant only for Almighty Allah to another human being who WAS also created by ALLAH and who also bows down to his creator and say its "out of respect" and not related as such. Isn't that Partisian beliefs that you practice???

SHIRK isnt always only admission but also actions and beliefs that are akin to such. Watch today how the Bohris behave in the presence of Maula with their head down, hands held like the Hindus when praying and its members performing Sajdas and bowing down whenever he is present or when he passes by the roads. If Maula is a pious and religious man that has been sent out to "look after his flock" why is it that you have to pay to see him?? Why is it that you have to pay for him to visit you and "bless" your house? Why does he have to decide the name of your children at birth? Why is it that now every Bohri Child carries a photo of him to school and kisses the photo before writing an exam asking him to make him pass. Why is it that in the Bohri Community and the lives of its members; the name of the Maula is mentioned more times than the name of Almighty ALLAH? Why is it any good deed or happening is attributed to "Maula ni Barkaat"? Visit a Bohri household and you will see a large life size photo of Maula and the phrase " Yah Maula" being mentioned everytime an exclamation is made! Its very rare to find the phrase "Ya Allah" mentioned nowadays.

This issue has been discussed many times on this board. Imam Jafar al-Sadiq has said that Iman is verbal as well as displayed in actions. Quran is very clear to whom sajda is due. It is to Allah alone. In this instance, actions which are forbidden by Allah amount to Shirk if performed. Sajda to the Dai is shirk, no doubt about it. Standing up or bowing down to the Dai in a form of prayer is shirk.

It is alright to ask Sayedna to bless your house. It is not right to hang his pictures anywhere for blessing or tawiz issued by him. They are superstitions. They are created to reinforce the cult of the Dai. Giving him money to bless your house, if he rquires it, is not blessing. It is tijarat.

I hope I have made myself clear.

[Muslim First]

Br. Porus

AS

How can we have conversation when you use insulting words?

Wasalaam

[Admin]

Can you pls not start the shia/sunni debate again here? Please take it to the "Islam Today" forum.
Thanks.

[anajmi]

Admin,

I have moved all the posts starting from my own to this thread

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 183#p70183

Please post related responses on the thread in the link above.

Thanks

[MuffadalMK]

Hiii Guys i have been reading all the posts n i thnk that discussion on ths topic want end cause thr r some really wrong thngs happening in community i dnt know wht should we do but if its about the higher authority thn we cant do anything to stop the wrong, caus its not abt one person its about the whole community so we should just wait for the judgment day when IMAM Uz Zaman will be among us n will take us where we all belong so dont west ur time in apposing we all r frm one community the difference is that u guys have made ur own rules n r now apposing us, n we all know that apposing DAI is like rejecting the Panjetans order ........!!!!!