THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT

[aqs]

A common mistake done by Bohras though unknowingly.

a very large number who goes to Dargah of any Moula when asks for any blessings directly asks the Moula

example : XYZ Moula please give me XYZ thing, or fulfill my XYZ desire

now this is shirk as they are directly asking and this in no way is vasila.

vasila will be when the person asking for something does Dua like

Ya Allah give me XYZ and i take vasila of XYZ Moula

but i have heard syedna saying in waiz "Hussain(alaihi salaam) to daataar che,je mangwu hoi te mangi lejo" i know he doesnt mean to do shirk,but common bohra with little knowledge of quraan might not understand the meaning of taking wasila and start asking from the wali in darga?

definitely its never meant that you start your prayers with something like Aqa Husain give me this and that instead of Ya Allah give me this in the vasila of Aqa Husain

[porus]

Sometime back in another thread, porus agreed that there are some bohras who have raised the status of the Syedna such that they have started worshipping him. That is, these bohras are guilty of committing shirk. How did he arrive at that conclusion? Do they claim that Syedna created Andromeda? Do they say - "li Syedna azza wa jal" in their prayers? The answer to both of these would be a thumping "NO". These kinds of arguments actually enable the idol worshipping bohras to exonerate themselves of the sin of shirk.

anajmi starting being silly again after a hiatus when I thought he was getting a bit more learned!

That was an argument from specific examples of Allah's quality as the creator of the universe and his exclusive right to be worshiped. That does not exhaust the list of activities qualifying as shirk. There are other activities which also qualify as shirk such as sajda to Sayedna.

First, the panjatan are dead, so you cannot ask them. However, based upon 3:169 if you believe that they can hear you, then asking them is actually praying to them. You do not ask them to pray for you. You pray to them to pray for you to Allah. So instead of praying to Allah, you are praying to the panjatan to pray for you to Allah. Besides, Allah says in the Quran that he is closer to each one of us than our jugular. Do you think the panjatan are somehow in between Allah and your jugular?

anajmi being silly yet again. He explains to us the correct interpretation of 3:169. What a great Quranic scholar he is!

If Muhammad is dead, why keep repeating the second sentence of the Shahada "La ilah illa Allah. Muhammadun Rasulullah" It means Muhammad is Allah's Messenger. Why not say "Kana Muhammad Rasulullah" meaning Muhammad was Allah's Messenger. And why say the second sentence anyway? He is dead and gone, right?

The reason why Shahada is said in its entirety in the present tense is that Muhammad is the wasila to get near Allah. And, as Mubarak pointed out, Allah used him as the wasila to reach human beings. Ayat 4:64 brings this out clearly. Allah says that if sinners had sought forgiveness through Muhammad, Allah would have pardoned them. The ayat does not say if they had come to Allah exclusively but through Muhammad as well. Why would Allah say that in the Quran if he was next to people's jugular vein?

3:169 singles out some who are recipients of Allah's rizq after they are martyred fi sabilillah. In what sense do they enjoy the rizq if they are dead? Is Quran saying that this ayat is revealed to prevent you from excessive mourning for the dead? No, it does not. So, here a Wahhabi is saying that Quran talks in riddles after all and he has a hadith to prove it. What a palaver?

[profastian]

All this harping about Shirk.

Allah created the universe. (Shirk too, associating an action with Allah)
Allah, please give me XYZ. (Shirk too, how can you ask when you can't behold)
Allah sent Prophet Mohammand ( Shirk too...)
He is all knowing (Shirk too, associating a gender.. BTW why everybody calls him a he. why not a she )

Go and understand, what Allah means first and stop this non sensical harping about Shirk..

[aqs]

All this harping about Shirk.

Allah created the universe. (Shirk too, associating an action with Allah)
Allah, please give me XYZ. (Shirk too, how can you ask when you can't behold)
Allah sent Prophet Mohammand ( Shirk too...)
He is all knowing (Shirk too, associating a gender.. BTW why everybody calls him a he. why not a she )

Go and understand, what Allah means first and stop this non sensical harping about Shirk..

good observation

this will help regarding THE ONE (also shirq, attributing finiteness to Him(one more shirq, appending gender))

The primeval Source of Being is the One and the Infinite, as opposed to the many and the finite. It is the source of all life, and therefore absolute causality and the only real existence. However, the important feature of it is that it is beyond all Being, although the source of it. Therefore, it cannot be known through reasoning or understanding, since only what is part of Being can be thus known. Being beyond existence, it is the most real reality, source of less real things. It is, moreover, the Good, insofar as all finite things have their purpose in it, and ought to flow back to it. But one cannot attach moral attributes to the original Source of Being itself, because these would imply limitation. It has no attributes of any kind; it is being without magnitude, without life, without thought; in strict propriety, indeed, we ought not to speak of it as existing; it is "above existence," "above goodness." It is also active force without a substratum; as active force the primeval Source of Being is perpetually producing something else, without alteration, or motion, or diminution of itself. This production is not a physical process, but an emission of force; and, since the product has real existence only in virtue of the original existence working in it

*taken from Neoplatonism

[porus]

profastian/aqs,

That was rather nonsensical attempt to send discussion off on to some mythical trajectory.

Whatever Neoplatonism has to say about God and no matter how much of it has been incorporated into Bohra Haqaiq, Neoplatonism is not Islam.

If you take the extreme attitudes you write about, Islam can have no meaning for you at all. Every page of the Quran mentions God, his qualities, his 99 names and so on.

Your prayers use the words "allahu wahda-hu, la sharika lahu", you recite "la sharika laka labbayk" when performing umra and haj.

In any case, discussion is not about Allah, but Bohras associating humans with Allah. That is shirk.

Please avoid derailing the discussion with irrelevant comments. Thanks.

[anajmi]

There are other activities which also qualify as shirk such as sajda to Sayedna.

Correct. So andromeda and "li Syedna" were just one of many such activities. It is amusing that you picked two activities that no one actually performs. Smart indeed.

It means Muhammad is Allah's Messenger. Why not say "Kana Muhammad Rasulullah" meaning Muhammad was Allah's Messenger.

This is the problem with the shias. Do not compare Allah's messenger with other humans. His status is different. It is comical to see that first the shias will compare the ahle bait with common people and then with the prophet (saw) himself. If I am lucky enough to die fi sabilillah, I would love to see the shias pray to me.

Ayat 4:64 brings this out clearly. Allah says that if sinners had sought forgiveness through Muhammad, Allah would have pardoned them.

Again shia twists and turns and deceptions. We all know that becoming a muslim erases all sins. However, how do you become a muslim? During the time of the prophet (saw) you approached the prophet and declared your intentions and gave bayah to the prophet (saw). Simple. This has nothing to do with vasila. The quran has so many duas that we recite almost daily, how many of them have vasila in them? Let me post some of them, some of these are even repeated by the bohras daily. Read them closely, there is no sign of any vasila in them. Remember, no dua is better than the duas in the Quran and those taught by the prophet (saw) himself. You are addressing Allah directly in these duas. No intermediary necessary.

002.127
YUSUFALI: And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
002.128
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
002.129
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
002.201
YUSUFALI: And there are men who say: "Our Lord! Give us good in this world and good in the Hereafter, and defend us from the torment of the Fire!"
002.250
YUSUFALI: When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: "Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith."
002.285
YUSUFALI: The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
002.286
YUSUFALI: On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."
003.008
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thine own Presence; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure.
003.009
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind Together against a day about which there is no doubt; for Allah never fails in His promise."
003.016
YUSUFALI: (Namely), those who say: "Our Lord! we have indeed believed: forgive us, then, our sins, and save us from the agony of the Fire;"-
003.053
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
003.147
YUSUFALI: All that they said was: "Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and anything We may have done that transgressed our duty: Establish our feet firmly, and help us against those that resist Faith."
003.191
YUSUFALI: Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.
003.192
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! any whom Thou dost admit to the Fire, Truly Thou coverest with shame, and never will wrong-doers Find any helpers!
003.193
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous.
003.194
YUSUFALI: "Our Lord! Grant us what Thou didst promise unto us through Thine messengers, and save us from shame on the Day of Judgment: For Thou never breakest Thy promise."

[anajmi]

3:169 singles out some who are recipients of Allah's rizq after they are martyred fi sabilillah. In what sense do they enjoy the rizq if they are dead? Is Quran saying that this ayat is revealed to prevent you from excessive mourning for the dead? No, it does not. So, here a Wahhabi is saying that Quran talks in riddles after all and he has a hadith to prove it. What a palaver?

Actually, 3:169 was revealed for the reason mentioned in 3:168.

003.168
YUSUFALI: (They are) the ones that say, (of their brethren slain), while they themselves sit (at ease): "If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain." Say: "Avert death from your own selves, if ye speak the truth."

The disbelievers are saying that if the believers had listened to them and not chosen to fight, they wouldn't have been slain.

Allah then says in 3:169 that those who are slain fi sabilillah are not dead but alive and well receive rizq from Allah.

And the shia interpretation is that they are not dead they receive rizq and this rizq enables them to become all hearers and they can now hear your prayers and communicate them to Allah as they have now been stationed between Allah and your jugular.

[anajmi]

Going into some more detail for

004.064
YUSUFALI: We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave. And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

As I have said before, if you are sick you go to the doctor. However, if you need your sins forgiven who do you go to? At the time of the prophet (saw) you would go to the prophet. Today, there is no prophet. He might be alive but we do not know where he is. If we assume that if we pray to him, he can hear us, then we are attributing Allah's quality to the prophet (saw) and hence committing shirk. Allah has asked us in the Quran to send salwaat to the prophet (saw). We do not know how he receives it. But to extend that to now assume that your prayers will similarly be heard by the prophet is shirk.

I have said this before as well, I ask my mother to pray for me and my kids all the time. So vasila in this way is valid. And as aqs said, beseeching Allah on behalf of his beloved ones is also not shirk. For eg. I can say "Our Lord, you sent your most beloved messenger amongst us who told us about your Mercy. Shower some of the mercy that the prophet (saw) talked about on me my Lord. I believe in you and your prophet and obey you and your prophet o Allah. Save me from hell fire and give me a good status in heaven." Something to that effect. This is vasila. This is not shirk.