Tunisia,Egypt: Is the Arab World Moving Towards Independence

[Humsafar]

Since wealth and power is a typical human behavior are you inferring that if Norway, Sweden, Canada, Brazil, Australia, and France surrounded Israel, their leaders could also be bribed into being pawns and dictators ?

If these countries were in the middle east most probably Israel wouldn't even exist and nor would world's many problems. Apart from other things, the creation of Israel is rooted in the inherent racism against the Arabs.

As for greed for power and wealth in the West , it is achieved in more sophisticated ways - it is channelised through free markets and democracy. The ruling oligarchy - of corporate and political class - has manipulated the system to such an extent that they don't have to use brute force (like mideast dictators) to keep the masses in line. Meaningless elections, endless work, mortgages,consumerism and non-stop sporting and entertainment spectacle keep the citizenry busy and in slavish obedience. Thank you.

[Fatwa Banker]

You didn't answer my question. Please spare me your anti-West rants as your belief in a failed communist system is documented and I do not wish to debate that yet again.

[Regal]

why is something biting fatwabankers butt if the people are all for democracy and want to oust a president on basis of majoriTy? if they do oust mubarak it wont be thru martial law but an interim govt will be in place and elections will be held. now whover wins these elections will have the power, be it islamists.

the west parades itself as a champion of democracy and anti-communism but supports dictators like mubarak, king saud, zia ul haq, shah of iran, etc etc. what was mubaraks rule if not communism under the garb of democracy? and when true democracy comes they throttle it down like when hamas won the elections in 2005.


what are Norway, Sweden, Canada, Brazil, Australia, and France if not pawns? what say do they have? did not france veto the iraq invasion? brazil is a third world country for gods sake!

[anajmi]

Real Democracies in the middle east will eventually lead to ultra high gas prices. No more discounts for American bitches. That is what bothers the likes of fa_t.

[Humsafar]

If I answered yes or no, will it make any difference? It's not about what I think. Besides, I've no interest in playing imaginary games. Let's talks about the realities on the ground.

Right, communism has failed but why do you bring it up? I wasn't referring to it by any stretch of the imagination. And while we are at it, you wouldn't want to consider the failed markets and how the big banks and corporations were natinalised by the big bad government that by holy writ should always stay out of the markekts? In that murky meldown the blatant greed of the civilised western system was in full diplay.

Coming back to issue at hand, please read your posts again and see how you are flitting from one issue to another. You bring full force of your moral wrath against dicators who sell themsleves, but you have no censure for your masters who do the buying. Flinging anti-western accusation is an old and cheap trick.

[Aarif]

Humsafar,

Actaully these western Farts are not interested in the real issues. Their only concern is oil. However, they don't have the balls to admit this. So they try to convince people by confusing them. History is the witness that dictatorship and communism have caused less problems in the world than the so called advanced democracies. Israel was created in the middle of the Arab world by the leaders of Britain, France and US as part of the promise that they had made to their zionist supporters. So in that sense does that make them pawns in the hands of their zionist friends right from the begining? The creation of Israel in middle east was the end of peace in that region. The western farts would never accept these real facts. Instead they will pass on the blame to the kings and bitches they have produced to protect their interest.

[Regal]

if the islamic countries join hands like they did before and refuse to sell oil to western superpowers much good can come out of it. revive the spirit of the islamic summit conference!!

[anajmi]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 0160.story

"Israel fears regional regime change"

Simply put, Israel would rather have autocratic friends than democratic enemies.

and then later on

But many Israelis share Netanyahu's concern that Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist opposition group, and Iran would try to turn Egypt into "another Gaza run by radical forces that oppose everything the democratic world stands for."

huh!!! What does the Israeli democratic world stand for? Oppress democratic states that don't agree with stealing of land?

[anajmi]

"However this plays out, it appears that relations with Egypt will get worse for the simple reason that any new regime in Egypt will understand it must be more attuned to its street — and the street does not Iike Israel," said Shlomo Brom, senior researcher at the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv.

This guy is smart. He knows that the street does not like Israel or the US. And it has everything to do with them supporting oppressive dictators. This spreading of freedom and democracy chant by the Americans and the Israelis these days is only fooling fa_ts like our resident fa_t.

[Fatwa Banker]

Boy, I must have hit a raw nerve yet again, the hordes are out ! Much like when I first made the statement years ago that the Palestinian Authority was corrupt and had sold out the Palestinian cause, as proven to be true now by Wikileaks. You guys must get out of your groupthink mode and see the realities as they are.

Regal, you don't appear to be understanding what you are reading in my post as you are beating a dead horse.

You bring full force of your moral wrath against dicators who sell themsleves, but you have no censure for your masters who do the buying.

Phew ...took you a while to get that ! Correct....Israeli leaders could not be bought into giving up anything and have created a super power on Palestinian land, while all Muslim nations surrounding it have been bought and paid for including the Palestinian leaders themselves. If you remove your emotional blindfold, you will have to place the blame where it lies.

An*jmi don't feel left out, you are my bitch too, as long as you choose to live in the US to make your livelihood which you can't make anywhere else. So shut up and quit 'yer bitchin' (no pun intended)

[Humsafar]

Correct....Israeli leaders could not be bought into giving up anything and have created a super power on Palestinian land...

Seriously, this is what you think? "Israeli supremacy" is an old canard and I'm suprrised it is still in currency after all these years. Read the history of zionism and creation of Israel and you will have a better understanding. Israeli leaders were not bought over, it is they who did the buying (of Arab leaders) with the massive help of American might and the wealth of jewish diaspora. It seems your argument rests on the belief that might is right: Since Israel came out the "winner" it must be right and good. This aligns very well with your econmic worldview: winners take it all, losers deserve their fate.

[anajmi]

Boy, I must have hit a raw nerve yet again, the hordes are out !

Yes they are out. Just like the hordes are out in Egypt against the other American bitch, we are out against our very own resident American/Israeli bitch.

Palestinian Authority was corrupt and had sold out the Palestinian cause, as proven to be true now by Wikileaks.

And who bought the Palestinian cause? Why? The reason Israel is what it is is not because it is a democracy but it is a powerful thief protected by yet another powerful theif.

Israeli leaders could not be bought into giving up anything and have created a super power on Palestinian land

fa_t, remember just like Hosni is your bitch, you and your masters are the bitches of Israeli leaders. They weren't bought, they bought you.

as long as you choose to live in the US to make your livelihood which you can't make anywhere else.

Actually, I can make my livelihood anywhere. But this way, I can enjoy hearing you bitchin' about it all the time.

[Fatwa Banker]

Read the history of zionism and creation of Israel and you will have a better understanding. Israeli leaders were not bought over, it is they who did the buying

Isn't that what I just said ? Exactly what are you disagreeing with me on ? You are regurgitating my point.

[Humsafar]

Read the history of zionism and creation of Israel and you will have a better understanding. Israeli leaders were not bought over, it is they who did the buying

Isn't that what I just said ? Exactly what are you disagreeing with me on ? You are regurgitating my point.

So what's your point? Does it make Israel right? Does using force, deception, terrorism, money, the ability to buy weak Arab leaders, blackmailing the world over holocaust justify the occupation of stolen lands and continuous expanssion of settlements? Just because it can browbeat its rivals? Just because it can muster the support of American financial and military might? Just because Arab leaders weak and corrupt? Is this your criteria to judge right and wrong - that winners are right and losers are wrong?

[ghulam muhammed]

“The Arab world is on fire”, Al Jazeera reported on January 27, while throughout the region Western allies “are quickly losing their influence”. The shock wave was set in motion by the dramatic uprising in Tunisia that drove out a Western-backed dictator, with reverberations especially in Egypt, where demonstrators overwhelmed a dictator’s brutal police.

Observers compared the events to the toppling of Russian domains in 1989, but there are important differences.

Crucially, no Mikhail Gorbachev exists among the great powers that support the Arab dictators. Rather, Washington and its allies keep to the well-established principle that democracy is acceptable only insofar as it conforms to strategic and economic objectives: fine in enemy territory (up to a point), but not in our backyard, please, unless it is properly tamed.

One 1989 comparison has some validity: Romania, where Washington maintained its support for Nicolae Ceausescu, the most vicious of the East European dictators, until the allegiance became untenable. Then Washington hailed his overthrow while the past was erased.

That is a standard pattern: Ferdinand Marcos, Jean-Claude Duvalier, Chun Doo Hwan, Suharto and many other useful gangsters. It may be under way in the case of Hosni Mubarak, along with routine efforts to try to ensure that a successor regime will not veer far from the approved path.

http://www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamA ... cleID=4064

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

No use trying to get the fa_t bit_ch to see the truth. The American bit_hes are hardened, specially those that are darker. So is our resident. Hosni is unwilling to go after 30 years and the entire country against him. Saddam allowed millions of Iraqis to suffer and wouldn't go until his masters had to take him out. These bit_hes are shameless to the core. Plight of ordinary humans doesn't bother them.

[ghulam muhammed]

The Arab world as a whole is not poor. Many in Tunisia and Egypt are suffering from poverty, but their neighbour, Libya, is soaking in oil-money and Algeria is relatively wealthy. Across the Red Sea, Yemen, Syria, Palestine and Jordan are poor, however Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Abu-Dhabi, and Kuwait are drenched in oil-money. This division between the rich and poor nations is not entirely natural, because the borders were drawn after the First World War by the colonial nations; by that time, oil was discovered which was essential for the armed forces and the navy. Therefore, colonial Britain and France ensured the lands were divided to suit their interests and the US continued to endorse the same policy, because the division of Arab lands also helps to provide Israel with greater security; one of the reasons for the massive military intervention in 1991 to maintain the Kuwaiti borders. For Israeli’s security, the continuous funding of the various Arab-Zionist regimes like Mubarak becomes a necessity for the US. After the decades of funding, naturally the US is reluctant to support the call for his removal.


Using various ideologies, the Arabs have tried to remove the colonial shackles. First was Arab nationalism, inspired by Jamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt who gained immense popularity after the Suez crisis. The UAR (United Arab Republic) experiment in 1961 between Egypt and Syria ended in a disaster, as did the other initiatives by Nasser of Egypt. The Arab League has always been a social gathering, where clowns like Colonel Gaddafi and others put on a display. Arab unity was never going to work, because they could not overcome primitive nationalism. Most of the governments have been carving out their own dynasties. Everyone wants to keep it in the family.


Arab Socialism was another experiment that did not even take off. With the exception of Syria, which is nominally Socialist, everyone else belongs to the Capitalist free market camp. You can never curtail the human desire to poses wealth; profit is and always will be a central force in any economic system.

After the failure of nationalist and socialist movements, the Islamic movements started to surface in the late 70s and managed to offer some resistance to the constant aggression of Israel, supported by the US. In recent times, they had some success at political level, as they advanced in Egypt, Palestine, and Turkey through the elections. The FIS in Algeria came within an inch of acquiring power. However, after the *Jihadi* experiment (9/11 and Iraq), it seems everyone is taking a break, and reconsidering
their approach to liberate the lands from colonial agents. A wise move indeed.


Whilst the Islamic movements take a respite, it seems the secular forces are on the move to free the Arab world. The current uprising in Egypt is largely secular and nationalistic, everyone is waving the Egyptian flag instead of the black and white *Shahadah* (there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger) flag in Arabic. There are no signs of Islamic slogans or
placards, the Muslim Brotherhood has kept their distance and this is prudent. In desperation, the pro-Zionist elements are finger pointing at the Muslim Brotherhood for the Egyptian uprising, a glimmer of hope that the US might instigate a move with some Egyptian Generals to crackdown on the protestors and arrest the Muslim Brotherhood, and save the Arab-Zionist regime of Mubarak.


The King of Jordan and Saudi are the two other significant Arab-Zionist regimes. However, the US and Israel would not permit the current fervour for democracy to manifest in these countries, unless the odds were stacked in its favour.

[ghulam muhammed]

Critical Connections: Egypt, the US, and the Israel Lobby.

Minimally explored in all the coverage of the momentous Egyptian uprising taking place over the last 10 days are the Israeli connections. A central and critical reality is that it is US tax money that has propped up Hosni Mubarak’s despotic regime over the past 30 years, and that this money has flowed, from the beginning, largely on behalf of Israel. Israel is generally a significant factor in events in the Middle East, and to understand ongoing happenings it is important to understand the historic and current Israeli connections. The violent creation, perpetuation, and expansion of a state based on ethnic expulsion of the majority inhabitants has been central to Middle East dynamics ever since Israel was created by European and American Zionists in 1948 as a self-identified “Jewish State.”

http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/201 ... s-and.html

[anajmi]

Bro GM,

Have you ever noticed how you explain these things to the abdes of Syedna and the senseless responses that come from them that completely ignore everything that was just said? Our resident American / Israeli fa_t b__ch abde is no different.

[Fatwa Banker]

The Arab world as a whole is not poor.

GM,

You are confusing per capita income with wealth. Neither the Libyans nor the Saudi poplulations are "soaking in money", in fact the opposite is true. The money is concentrated in the hands of the monarchies, while Saudi Arabia has 20% unemployment. The real number is much higher.

Humsafar,

The point is that you are late to the party if after 80 years you are still dwelling in simplistic "right" & 'wrong" analysis , while Israel is pretty much taking up any piece of Palestinian land it wants. Part of Israel's conspiracy is keeping you guys busy thinking it is a conspiracy, when it is all out in the open. Just look at the links above, you think you have fallen onto to something the world doesn't know. Israeli antics are common knowledge as is the US/EU support of Arab dictators. Hell even China and India are becoming strong Israeli allies.

So what is the solution ? That is what I am more interested in discussing rather than the elementary rehashing of Palestinian history. I am very interested in where you and even Anajmi stand on this. Do you think at this point you can make Israel "cease to exist", if so, how ? If not, what would be an acceptable compromise ?

[anajmi]

So what is the solution ?

The solution is to start getting rid of American / Israeli bitches that exist in the midst of people who hate them. Establish true democracies that work only for their people. America cares for its own citizens and only its own citizens. Arab countries need to get rid of the current puppets and establish leaders that will put their own people foremost. Do not wait 30 years to get rid of your leaders. Do it in a couple of years. If you see them bowing to down to American / Israeli pressure, get out on the street immediately. This is not going to be easy. CIA will try to find sleeper cells and Osama in all these nations. America and Israel are not interested in peace or compromise. They need the land and they need the oil. America and Israel will bomb the hell out of these nations. But that is the price that will have to be paid for eventual and long lasting freedom from these hegemonies. Palestinians and the people of other middle eastern countries should stop waiting for an American leader to take them out of their misery. That is not going to happen. They need to get out on the streets. Their leaders need to be afraid of them and not the other way around.

The oppressed people in the middle east should realize that just the thought of democratic governments that are working for the people send shivers down American / Israeli spine. They do not need to build bombs!!

[Humsafar]

Wow FB, for you "right and wrong" is an old, biblical notion which is not only emotional indulgence but quite irrelevant to the current situation. And your whole line of argument betrays the bias of American thinking exemplified by such beacons of free intellectual stars as Fox News. Just because somebody criticises Israel then it must naturally follow they the they also want it to cease to exist. I did not know that this is the kind of bias you were labouring under!!! Who can blame you, though.

But before we go on to the solution, I take it that you agree in principle to the 80-year-old, ancient facts of the situation: that 1) Israel is the aggressor and 2) the US with its unflinching financial, military, political and diplomatic support has been aiding and abetting this aggressor. I don't think you're so naive as to assume that there can be a solution without consideration of who's right and who's wrong - no matter how antediluvian these notions may sound to you.

Now the solution. UN Resolution 242 along with tens of others which in essence call for land for peace formula: that Israel must withdraw troops from territories that it occupied in 1967; calls for East Jerusalem as capital of Palestine; demands end of building settlements; gives Palestinians right of return. Over the the years Palestinians have been making concessions on these basic demands but Israel always wants more. The solution it offers leaves Palestine as a collection of Bantustans, separated and disjointed, amounting to only a mere fraction of its 1967 territory. No people with any self-respect can accept that. It's like I invading your house and forcing you to live in the doghouse. Would you accept that? And when you rightly refuse to accept it, I turn around and make a big noise about how you are not interested in "the solution". Israel has been playing this game forever.

Look at the pattern of UN voting: Israel and US and a few bought cronies on one side and the rest of the world on the other. Every UN resolution critical of Israel has been voted and vetoed against. Not to mention that a majority of those resolutions read like litany of condemnation against Israeli aggressions. Without the US veto in its favour in the security council, Israel wouldn't be able to survive for a single day. The quickest route to resolving the conflict would be for the US to stop using its veto power. And you still want to crow about how Israel has created a superpower amidst Arabs nations??? It's like I crowing about how I have made myself at home in your house. According to your moral compass, I am the winner and therefore all fault must lie with you.

My friend, the solution is there and it cannot be arrived without the spirit of give and take. But the basic fact is that Israel does not want to give. It wants peace but it also wants more land. That is not the solution.

[ghulam muhammed]

A crook praising another crook :-

Tony Blair: Mubarak is 'immensely courageous and a force for good'

Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as "immensely courageous and a force for good" and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.

The former prime minister, now an envoy to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, praised Mubarak over his role in the negotiations and said the west was right to back him despite his authoritarian regime because he had maintained peace with Israel

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... good-egypt

[ghulam muhammed]

Mubarak family fortune could reach $70bn, say experts

President Hosni Mubarak's family fortune could be as much as $70bn (£43.5bn) according to analysis by Middle East experts, with much of his wealth in British and Swiss banks or tied up in real estate in London, New York, Los Angeles and along expensive tracts of the Red Sea coast.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... ly-fortune

[ghulam muhammed]

Within days of the start of the uprising in Egypt, political pundits in Washington began to ask why America’s massive intelligence apparatus had not been able to predict it.

Their criticism has the empty benefit of hindsight. History has a habit of blindsiding human beings. It did so in St Petersburg in 1917; in Berlin in 1931, in Moscow in 1992. It tends to do so because although the causes of political change can be identified in advance, the change itself is almost always sudden. Anger that has simmered for years, even decades, suddenly bursts forth and spreads like wild fire. Then there is no stopping it.

Strategic analysts have ascribed the near simultaneous explosions of street power in Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan and Yemen to rising income inequalities, a sharp rise in the cost of food and widespread unemployment. But a closer look shows that their single uniting factor is a revolt against governments that have become increasingly unrepresentative with the passage of time.

All the protests and uprisings are taking place against regimes that are firmly aligned with the US and are therefore, tacitly or explicitly, willing to coexist with Israel. Israel’s relentless nibbling at the West Bank throughout the nineties, George Bush’s Iraq war in 2003, Israel’s attack on Lebanon in 2006, and the unending economic blockade of Gaza for the past five years have made it harder and harder for the rulers to justify their policies. This has forced them to rely more and more heavily on repression to stay in power.

But repression cannot be selective: What may have begun as an attempt to suppress Arab radicalism after the assassination of president Anwar Sadaat, and the end of the First Afghan war, has ended by stifling all forms of political dissent. Repression has bred unaccountability and corruption. One needed only to add global recession, food inflation and unemployment to this deadly mix to make the pot boil over.

Egypt is on the cusp. The government is holding talks with the dissidents; after 45 years the Muslim brotherhood has been allowed to come out of the cold. The chances of an orderly transition to democracy are getting better. Should this happen the credit will belong not only to Egypt’s suddenly empowered civil society but also in good part to president Obama. He understood within hours that siding with repression now would buy short term stability at the cost of long term chaos. He has therefore urged Mubarak to leave the seemingly safe harbour of authoritarian rule, for the heaving seas of democracy.

The change that is taking place in Egypt and has already taken place in Tunisia is reverberating around the world. King Abdullah of Jordan has changed his prime minister; president Saleh in Yemen has called a joint meeting with all parties to craft a reconciliation.

If this upsurge of democratic sentiment continues, the political map of the Arab world will be changed forever. Israel will be the first to feel its effect, for it will have to look for fresh ways to settle the Palestine issue. But Islamist extremism will be the second loser, for it too has fed upon the intransigence of authoritarian regimes and their willingness to tolerate Israel’s incessant resort to force.

Today it is like a deer caught in the headlights of a speeding train. It has to jump off the tracks , and is rapidly running out of time.

[Fatwa Banker]

But before we go on to the solution, I take it that you agree in principle to the 80-year-old, ancient facts of the situation: that 1) Israel is the aggressor and 2) the US with its unflinching financial, military, political and diplomatic support has been aiding and abetting this aggressor.

That is a fact and has never been a secret, yet all discussion regarding the issue seem to begin and there. Having said that, I do not see it changing any time soon. Let's leave the UN out of this for a moment as I am sure even you will agree that it is a corrupt and impotent organization. The generally accepted solution you cite although reasonable has failed, because it is in Israel's interest to stall the process as they have more time to develop additional settlements and manufacture "facts on the ground", while the Palestinians fight each other. With regard to the right of return issue (which most reasonable people support), even Mahmoud Abbas has conceded that it is "illogical to ask Israel to take five million or indeed one million -- that would mean the end of Israel."

With all the odds against the Palestinians there needs to be a new diplomatic stance / strategy strkingly different from what has failed to work for a generation.

[Fatwa Banker]

if the islamic countries join hands like they did before and refuse to sell oil to western superpowers much good can come out of it. revive the spirit of the islamic summit conference!!

You appear to lack basic understanding of economics. Islamic countries are dirt poor and can't afford to buy their own oil and they can't drink it. So if you get rid of the customers, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. The bulk of Islamic populations rely on Government provided services for basic sustenance, if you take the source of revenue away "revival of spirit" will only come with even more Muslims migrating to the West. Just ask An*jmi.

[anajmi]

Let's leave the UN out of this for a moment as I am sure even you will agree that it is a corrupt and impotent organization.

FB (Fa_t Bi_ch) finally makes some sense. Who are the "supreme" powers in the UN? US, UK, France, China and Russia. Do you see any Muslim countries in there? It is a corrupt and impotent organization because that is what works for them. A functioning organization would be counter productive.

With all the odds against the Palestinians there needs to be a new diplomatic stance / strategy strkingly different from what has failed to work for a generation.

I propose dismissal of veto powers possessed by the US and UK. No diplomatic solution is possible without this drastic measure.

So if you get rid of the customers, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Unfortunately for the muslim countries, their customers come with M4s, M16s, F22s, stealth bombers, Abrams tanks and depleted uranium shells. Whatever these muslims nations are doing, seems to be working, even if very slowly. We can already see the FBs (fa_t bi_ches) loosing sleep.

[anajmi]

even Mahmoud Abbas has conceded that it is "illogical to ask Israel to take five million or indeed one million -- that would mean the end of Israel."

I suggest resettling of those Palestinians in the United States.

[Fatwa Banker]

Who are the "supreme" powers in the UN? US, UK, France, China and Russia. Do you see any Muslim countries in there?.

Who are the Top 10 Donators to the UN ? Do you see any Muslim countries in there ?