Tunisia,Egypt: Is the Arab World Moving Towards Independence

[anajmi]

Islamic countries are dirt poor and can't afford to buy their own oil and they can't drink it.

Who are the Top 10 Donators to the UN ? Do you see any Muslim countries in there ?

??? Had too much oil to drink FB?

[Humsafar]

But before we go on to the solution, I take it that you agree in principle to the 80-year-old, ancient facts of the situation: that 1) Israel is the aggressor and 2) the US with its unflinching financial, military, political and diplomatic support has been aiding and abetting this aggressor.

That is a fact and has never been a secret, yet all discussion regarding the issue seem to begin and there. Having said that, I do not see it changing any time soon. Let's leave the UN out of this for a moment as I am sure even you will agree that it is a corrupt and impotent organization. The generally accepted solution you cite although reasonable has failed, because it is in Israel's interest to stall the process as they have more time to develop additional settlements and manufacture "facts on the ground", while the Palestinians fight each other. With regard to the right of return issue (which most reasonable people support), even Mahmoud Abbas has conceded that it is "illogical to ask Israel to take five million or indeed one million -- that would mean the end of Israel."

With all the odds against the Palestinians there needs to be a new diplomatic stance / strategy strkingly different from what has failed to work for a generation.

FB, is that your comeback? Yes, the UN is corrupt, and it is impotent in so far as it does not jive with your worldview. If instead of theocratic Israel the resolutions were against another theocratic Muslim country you would be jumping up and down about its potency. The UN may be irrelevant in world affairs, but it does represents world opinion and by that measure alone the whole world is against US imperialism and that of its local runt Israel.

It's instructive that you should that you should invoke the corrupt Mahmoud Abass when it suits you. If the right of return for Palestinians is illogical then from what logical standpoint is it okay for the Jews (no matter where they are on the globe) to have the right to come and settle in "occupied territories"? It's like me saying that it's illogical for you to return to your own house, but it's perfectly okay if I who has occupied your house to invite my friends and family to live with me. I don't expect you to understand the moral dimension of this situation but even the "logical" dimension escapes you?

With all the odds against the Palestinians there needs to be a new diplomatic stance / strategy strkingly different from what has failed to work for a generation.

Brilliant! You think all the odds against the Palestinians are due to some force of nature, uh? This is the result of force and brutality. All strategy and diplomacy has failed because Israel and US are not interested in any peaceful solution. That is the bottom line. All the same, do you have any alternative solution? Let;s hear it out.

[Fatwa Banker]

In your rush to scream out your opinions as gospel, you miss the point often.

If the right of return for Palestinians is illogical then from what logical standpoint is it okay for the Jews (no matter where they are on the globe) to have the right to come and settle in "occupied territories"? It's like me saying that it's illogical for you to return to your own house, but it's perfectly okay if I who has occupied your house to invite my friends and family to live with me. I don't expect you to understand the moral dimension of this situation but even the "logical" dimension escapes you?

I am quoting Abbas, that is not my view ! If you accept a two state solution then ask for a right of return is like saying I will let you have my house as long as you let me move back in.

Brilliant! You think all the odds against the Palestinians are due to some force of nature, uh? This is the result of force and brutality. All strategy and diplomacy has failed because Israel and US are not interested in any peaceful solution.

That has already been established from the onset, again, you are beating a dead horse. I was hoping for an exchange of ideas, not tired rhetoric.

[anajmi]

That has already been established from the onset, again, you are beating a dead horse. I was hoping for an exchange of ideas, not tired rhetoric.

I agree with you. You've been a dead horse for a long time. But beating you will never go out of business "FB".

I am quoting Abbas, that is not my view

You are like a rat aren't you? As soon as your views are exposed you run from them don't you?

If you accept a two state solution then ask for a right of return is like saying I will let you have my house as long as you let me move back in.

Don't play with words fa_t. Humsafar has your panties tied in a knot. Take a break and head back into your hole.

[Humsafar]

If you accept a two state solution then ask for a right of return is like saying I will let you have my house as long as you let me move back in.

Wow FB, do you even understand what you saying? You are saying that you should completly evict me - the occupier - from your house. Which is the right thing to do, in my opinion. This means you want Palestinians to completely eliminate Israel!!

The two nation theory is a concession on part of the Palestinians to let the occupier have more than half of their land. But the occupier insists on having everything.

That has already been established from the onset, again, you are beating a dead horse. I was hoping for an exchange of ideas, not tired rhetoric.

Exchange of ideas? What ideas have your offered. Tired rhetoric? Just because the facts clash with your rhetoric of Israeli and American exceptionalism??? In that tired rhetoric lies the solution if only you and your masters would even give it a moment's thought.

[Fatwa Banker]

Dude,

You sound like a broken record as you can't get past your extensive Mao Zedong readings that even China has abondoned. You inject that into every dicussion much like the Wahabis and their Hadiths.

Wow FB, do you even understand what you saying? You are saying that you should completly evict me - the occupier - from your house.

The two state solution is a cop out, but if you accept a two state solution as you have, then hanging on to the right of return is unrealistic (refer to my analogy above).

[anajmi]

The fa_t bi_ch wants an exchange of ideas but fortunately for all of us, he hasn't been able to come up with even half an idea. All he can do is tell others that they sound like broken records over and over again. Go figure!!!

The two state solution is a cop out

On whose part fa_t? The Israelis or the Palestinians? Hamas doesn't want a two state solution now do they? Neither does Israel. Neither you nor your masters have what it takes to deal with real issues. Diplomacy is not something that junglees like you can comprehend. Give Hamas a few tanks and a few F16s and see how soon Israel reaches a diplomatic solution!!

[Humsafar]

What has Mao got to do with anything? China has abandoned him, but you still insist on inflicting him - out of context - on people who do not agree with you.

As for two-nation theory, on what basis have you concluded that two-nation solution and right of return are mutually exclusive? Who is it a cop-out for? And why is it un-realistic? You mean it is realistic for Israel to settle jews from all over the world on occupied territories - to which they have no connection except for mythical faith? Is this the kind of realism and logic your twisted ideology imposes on you and impels you to make a public display of it?

[Fatwa Banker]

What has Mao got to do with anything ?

As for greed for power and wealth in the West , it is achieved in more sophisticated ways - it is channelised through free markets and democracy. The ruling oligarchy - of corporate and political class - has manipulated the system to such an extent that they don't have to use brute force (like mideast dictators) to keep the masses in line. Meaningless elections, endless work, mortgages,consumerism and non-stop sporting and entertainment spectacle keep the citizenry busy and in slavish obedience. Thank you.

the answer is simple: greed for wealth and power.

the Disneyland of free market and democracy

Perhaps your can answer your own question by stating what you disagree with Mao on.

As for two-nation theory, on what basis have you concluded that two-nation solution and right of return are mutually exclusive?

Because a right of return along with birth rate discrepancy between the Jewish and Muslim populations will render a Jewish state meaningless. Come on Humsafar, you are a bright individual.

Who is it a cop-out for?

The Palestinians

[anajmi]

Come on Humsafar, you are a bright individual.

Fortunately, I cannot say the same of you. You are as dumb as a dead horse.

Because a right of return along with birth rate discrepancy between the Jewish and Muslim populations will render a Jewish state meaningless.

Well, it seems it is only a matter of time before Muslims take over the world including America. Fa_t is afraid of Muslims that haven't even been born yet. The jews should've thought about it when they decided to create a jewish state in the middle of Muslims by displacing them. Any reason why America cannot give one of their own states to the Jews and resolve this issue once and for all? They can build a jewish state in the center surrounded by their bit_hes.

Who is it a cop-out for?


The Palestinians

So you agree with Hamas right? while quoting Abbas?

[Muslim First]

With settlement resolution veto, Obama has joined Likud
http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame. ... ceID=56044

[Humsafar]

FB, obviously you have no idea what Maoist philosophy is. You throw a random name around and hope that it will stick!! The passages you so painstakingly quote are more of a libertarian and liberal critique of capitalist imperialist system advanced by mainly Western thinkers - Mao has nohting to do with it. Secondly, bringing these old passages this late into the conversation surely is a sign that you are scraping at the bottom of the barrel.

Regardless, coming back to the Palestinian issue you failed to explain how "right of return" of palestinians is unrealisic while settling of foreign jews on occupied lands of those same palestinians is not. And going back to the analogy, so it is a cop-out for you that you've been forced to live in the doghouse in your own house that I've occupied? And now being in the doghouse, and declaring the "right of return" as unrealisitic, you are actually advocating that your family members should not be allowed to join you? Are you serious?

And in all these "exchange of ideas" - most of which have been coming from you, of course - you haven't offered any as to how the palestinian problem could be resolved!!!!

[Fatwa Banker]

Having read your rants and their injection into various conversations regardless of context , lets just say "libertarian" they are not !

When I said exchange of ideas , I did not expect you to come back with UN 242 and present it as your own. For the last time, all I am asking is If you accept a two state solution as you do, then please explain how Israel survives as a state once they take back all the refugees ? I am simply asking you to reason through your logic rather than parroting what you have read.

[anajmi]

So Israel should relocate to a more familiar territory. Either to Europe or to America. That would be the most ideal solution to this problem. The only way the two states can exist is if one is moved. America and Israel are each other's bit_hes. So they should be located next to one another. That way, you could serve both your masters at the same time.

[Humsafar]

FB, So you actually had no clue when you were throwing Mao`s name around, eh! And of course, calling US American foreign policy imperialistic - when it supports despots and sticks up to the local runt against all international and human rights laws - is completely out of context when we talk about mideast and israel. To point out that US is a phoney democracy ruled by a corporate oligarchy is out of context when it only pays lip service to democracy and human rights aborad. You can go to town ridiculing my posts as rants if that help you feel superior and smug. But you are smart enough to know that snide remarks never make for a good argument.

Exchange of ideas? You're not interested in tens of international treaties out there that offer feasible solutions to the crisis and to which most of the world agrees except for the US and its runt? Instead you want to know what I personally have to offer. Are you serious? Are we discussing some philosophical, abstract proposition here? First of all, the two-state theory does not invalidate right of return. How did you get the two tied up in your brilliant head I do not know and you do not care to explain. As for my solution, it is simple. Israel should withdraw to the pre-67 border, this should leave palestinians enough land to re-settle the people who were driven out. Of course you will call this unrealistic and will not even care to explain why. And I've yet to hear your seminal solution to this crisis!!!

Also, you still have to tell me how settling foreign jews to paletinian land is realistic? You are avoiding the question like the plague, and instead deflecting the conversation by ad hominem attacks!!!

[Fatwa Banker]

There you go again ....I didn't mean to insult you I thought you would wear your allegiance to Maoism as badge of honor !

you still have to tell me how settling foreign jews to paletinian land is realistic? You are avoiding the question like the plague

It's realistic because it has already happened, exactly what is your question (emotions aside) ?

First of all, the two-state theory does not invalidate right of return. How did you get the two tied up in your brilliant head I do not know and you do not care to explain.

Still wondering why you are not getting that. Israel will cease to be a Jewish state if all refugees are allowed back in ( I am not saying they shouldn't be), just trying to follow your train of thought, and reasoning if there is any.

I've yet to hear your seminal solution to this crisis

I don't recall telling you I had a solution, can you please quote me on that in case I missed it ?

[salim]

For many muslims world is changing for Good. Last 10 years may be called as rise of moderate Islam.

It started from 9-11. Taliban and their sister fundamentalist organizations were reduced from kingdom to gangs. Saddam Hussain is gone making Iran more powerful. This gave Iran enough motivation to perceive its nuclear motives. Followed by Lebanon and then Tunisia and then egypt.

This made Iran much more powerful than before. It is joyous moment for Palestine who see Lebanon and Egypt as their support unlike Egypt and Saudi as supporter of Israel.

Like many non-Muslims, many Muslims are also afraid and are optimistic at the same time. They are afraid that with the increase of Islamic power, fundamentalism may rise in Iran and followed by increase in fundamentalism in Sunni world. But they are optimistic that if this does not happen and if people get their rights world will change for Good.

Muslims are happy for Palestine also as now they have some voice. Common muslim needs freedom - freedom from fundamental fanatics, freedom from Jewish corrupt media, freedom from being imposed by west laws. And it looks like they are getting it.

[salim]

Afghanistan - 15 yeas back Taliban use to murder and rape all those who do no agree with not only their religion but also their interpretation of religion. In the name of sharia law shooting and stoning to death became norm. Now Afghanistan can never be as bad as it use to be. Except south waziristan most of the Afghanistan is getting better.

Iran - Saddam is gone. Sectarian violence cost Muslims hundreds of thousand of lives. But when Muslims will learn living peaceful they will grow more than they did in Saddam period and looks like life is not getting better in Iraq.

Egypt - Egypt has changed for Good. Unless Muslim brotherhood takes control on Egypt and start treating Egypt like Taliban did with Afghanistan. There is nothing wrong in having a Muslim democratic party. West should not have issue with it as well, because there are many christian democratic parties in west. The problem arises when instead of becoming a democratic party they try to rule the country by force and compulsion. In the name of sharia law they should not make crimes easy to commit and marginalize and harass women, chrildrens and non-muslims like they do in Saudi. The chances of this happening is less and hope it will never happen.

Sauid - Hope this tide enters in Saudi soon. By adopting compulsion and force rulers have turned common Saudis into merely zombie slaves. Inshallah in coming years, common Saudi will have guts and courage to fight against the extremism.

Iran - This tide is entering Iran and if it does not throw the government at least it will make this fundamentalist government more progressive and respectful of others. For sure fundamentalism is at its decline in Iran. But hope they find some catalyst and make this process faster.

Pakistan - A great country with less hope. This country was very progressive. This country was leading the Muslim world in the matters of democracy, education, women's right, etc. Today this great country is under the bad Oman of fundamentalism and highly corrupt and so called progressive government.

[Humsafar]

FB, Each time I respond to your questions you either resort to personal attacks or change gears. I can deal with your rabid imperialist biases but your intellectual dishonesty stumps me. In this great exchange of ideas that we are having, what ideas have you brought to the table? You rightly say that you never offered any solution. But did I ever offer any, leave alone the original and unique personal solution that you've been demanding of me? We are talking about a highly visible and widely documented crisis. The fact are for all to see. There is no secret panacea. Many solutions have been offered if only Israel would relent and if only the US would stop supporting it in its steadfast refusal to make peace.

If you want to continue this conversation please explain what is your position on this issue. You know my position. Let me know yours, so that we can have point by point, issue by issue discussion.

[anajmi]

This is what the fa_t bit_h wants from us.

So what is the solution ? That is what I am more interested in discussing rather than the elementary rehashing of Palestinian history.

I was hoping for an exchange of ideas, not tired rhetoric.

He wants an exchange of ideas and he wants to discuss solutions to the crisis. And then what does he do? Like the rat that he is, he cops out.

I don't recall telling you I had a solution, can you please quote me on that in case I missed it ?

[anajmi]

It's realistic because it has already happened, exactly what is your question (emotions aside) ?

If it is realistic, then why is it a crisis fart? Similarly, once the return of the palestinians happens, it will become realistic whether it is logical or not. Israel ceasing to exist is not unrealistic. Consider an America belonging to native Americans which ceased to exist.

[Fatwa Banker]

An*jmi,

Why don't you stand in the middle of the Libyan protest with a sign that reads "I'm Qaddafi's Bitch because he is anti-American" ?

[Humsafar]

An*jmi,

Why don't you stand in the middle of the Libyan protest with a sign that reads "I'm Qaddafi's Bitch because he is anti-American" ?

Another example of non sequitur by FB. Instead of responding to anajmi's argument he deflects the conversation with a personal, out of context remark.

[Fatwa Banker]

This scum bag does not deserve the courtesy of a response.

It is ironic that you are equally closed minded when your received wisdom is challenged. Time to get off your high horse and realize that you started off with unwarranted personal attacks from the onset of our "discussion", if it can be called that.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Consider that idea to be the best one that the fa_t bit_h can come up with, in this "exchange of ideas". Completely illogical and irrelevant. As always.

[Humsafar]

FB, My received wisdom is the wisdom of the world. The majority of the world is unanimous on the Israel-Palestinian issue. You're not challenging me you're challenging international and human rights laws which Israel is violating with material and moral support of the US.
Be that as it may, do let us know what is your position on this issue.

[anajmi]

It is ironic that you are equally closed minded when your received wisdom is challenged.

fa_t is challenging received wisdom. With what you might ask? With this

I don't recall telling you I had a solution, can you please quote me on that in case I missed it ?

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Here is what fa_t bit_h wrote a long time ago when he was just an average moron and not what he is now

Yes, I am not challenging any posts regarding the actions of Israel (as I believe in the Palestinian cause),

There were a lot of ifs and buts. To read the complete exchange (ala exchange of ideas) go to

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... ian#p47205

[Humsafar]

US vetoes United Nations resolution against Israel's illegal settlements.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/1 ... 25391.html

A few months back the US bribed Israel with 3 billion dollars requesting it to halt construction of settlements for only 90 days.

3 billion divided by 90 = $33 333 333.3 a day. That's your tax money.

It seems the little runt pocketed the money and ignored the request. And the US rewards it by using a veto in its favour.

[Fatwa Banker]

An*jmi,

Thank you for posting that...bright guy this AB fella ! Amazing how much of what he said then is still true. Here's his entire post:

Yes, I am not challenging any posts regarding the actions of Israel (as I believe in the Palestinian cause), but the hypocrisy and disingenuousness involved in giving similar Muslim atrocities a free ride. Muslim on muslim violence is accepted and ignored by all on this board. You don’t see daily headline posts of Wahabi beheading videos, or muslims getting blown up in Iraq, Pakistan or Afghanistan daily by fellow muslims. Preserving this status quo combined with an unwillingness to speak out along with an apathy toward violence is an epidemic that has infected Muslims and is deep rooted. If allowed to fester unabated as it is now, it will return Muslims to the stone age; and not one country at a time.