Thank you everyone for your kind words. It must be clear by now that Progticide is too smart by half. He's shifty and dishonest and is now derailing his own topic. From asking what have reformists accomplished, he's now questioning the very dawoodi bohraness of reformists. Unable to counter reformists' charges in any credible way he now questions the doctrinal credibility of reformists themesleves. We must feel sorry for people who are obliged to play such intellectual gymnastics in order to avoid discussing the real issues.
For argument's sake let's accept that reformists are not "technically" dawoodi bohras and have no right to question the affairs of the community. But do the charges they level against the mafia clergy stand on their own or not? Religious and financial corruption, coercion and mind-control, abuse of religion for personal gain, lack of accountability and autonomy, the cult of the dai and the single-minded lust for money and splendour. These are well-documented facts which stand on their own. Their validity does not depend on who is making these charges. So, if you're honest then let's discuss these issues and don't hide behind technicalities and doctrinal niceties.
The question of lack of central leadership is again a paper tiger which is raised and shot down. Abdes are skilled at making paper tigers, I wonder if it's part of their sabak curriculum!!! And of course they are willfully ignorant of how reformists operate and manage their affairs. Reformists have a central authority - Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community (CBDBC) - a council of members from all over India (and guest members from abroad) which defines and implements official reformist policies. The official stand on things doctrinal is that reformists accept the fundamental tenets of the Islmaili/Mustalian/Tayaabi/Dawoodi faith. We accept the line of duat up to the current Dai. So we are Dawoodi Bohras. Period.
But the unfounded assumption in the abde mind is that you're not a true dawoodi bohra if you question the dai. Abdes have been brainwashed into believing this. They have lost the capacity to distinguish between questioning the authority of the dai from questioning the behaviour of the dai. What reformists are questioning is the latter. And there is nothing in the scripture or tradition that prevents them from doing so. But the mafia clergy is clever, in the last two generations they have morphed the dai into an absolute authority. The emphasis on the infallibility of the dai, the misaaq and raza have been made central pillars of faith to browbeat the opposition and bamboozle ignorant Bohras. Reformists challenge the doctrinal validity of these tenets which they have time and again proved to be of recent origin without any grounding in either tradition or scripture. So, to pin us down on the infallibility of and lack of allegiance to the "haq na saheb" is a vain attempt to discredit reformists.
Before declaring reformists as non-dawoodi bohras, prove that the dai is inafllible, that misaaq and raza are fundamental tenets of Musltalian/Tayaabi/Dawoodi faith.
What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Dear Humsafar,
One must admire your courage to keep fighting for a cause you believe in despite the disparity in means and power between the two sides. The power and wealth of the bohra clergy is so extraordinary that it seems like a fools errand to even think of resisting them. Yet, the progressives do this out a sense of justice, accountability and fairness. This is very admirable and many people, like me, support you even though distance prevents us from helping you directly.
One thing which one needs to analyze is the reason for the fanatical devotion of the orthodox to the clergy, and, in particular, for the da'i. Bohras do not flock around the Sayedna because they fear him. They sincerely love him and respect him greatly. It would be a most interesting to study the psychology of the common Bohras which leads them to behave in such pathetically subservient manner. Perhaps the results would be moot but it would make an interesting sociological study.
The fanaticism does not end with the da'i but goes on and on: bohras bend over for every so-called Shezada, bhaisaheb, shaikh and mullah. The common bohra bends over abjectly in front of these "leaders", the motion having become a natural reaction. These mullahs have so drilled the worthlessness of the self when compared to the da'i and his cronies that bohras have lost all self-respect. These thugs have converted an egalitarian religion into a personal fiefdom in which the even the ground on which the da'i walks is hallowed. Bohras sing songs that even if they skin themselves to make shoes for the da'i that would not be enough.
As you said, to one conditioned to having their life run by the mullahs the freedom and exhilaration that comes from making choices for oneself is lost. We do not need to ask the mullah to pick names for our children, beg them permission to get married or bribe and cajol them to get our dead buried. There is great responsibility with the ability to make choices but we have happily taken this on. We love our community, our traditions and way of life and have decided to keep it "ours" and not hand over every last bit of control to the kothar machinery. A mullah should serve the community and not the other way round. Among the orthodox it is just the reverse: every random mullah collects hefty sums as salaams and, to boot, has bohras grovel in front of him. The progressives will have none of this.
One achievement of the progressives is the modernization of the bohra society. Most progressives are tolerant and leave matters of conscience to individuals. There are fanatics even among the progressives, of course, but not many pay attention to these. We have become more accepting, caring and secular, without loosing our fundamental cultural identity. The study of literature and philosophy is not off-limits and permission is not needed to learn. Neither does one need to attended carefully orchestrated sabaaks where often even taking notes is prohibited.
I think that the orthodox/progressive battle is very asymmetric. It is not just a matter of resources, but also of incessant propaganda and brainwashing. The orthodox are taught from an early age that the da'i is so exalted that even thinking that he could possibly be wrong or that he should not be unconditionally obeyed is a major sin, not pardonable by Allah himself. As if Allah has nothing better to do! Fighting against such relentless propaganda is nearly impossible. Worse, this propaganda is starts early in a bohra child's life, as young as 4 years of age, and they will never learn the great variety and richness of our religious traditions.
There is a small way in which each of us can contribute, specially on this board. Lets not go overboard in our criticism. Let not hatred rule us and lets think clearly and be generous even great wrong has been done us. Many orthodox who come here are essentially irredeemable but there are many who would be swayed and sympathize if we were polite and not offend them at every possible occasion. I know it is hard to control oneself in the heat of the moment, but lets try and do our best not to feed the bogey-man image the orthodox have painted about us.
One must admire your courage to keep fighting for a cause you believe in despite the disparity in means and power between the two sides. The power and wealth of the bohra clergy is so extraordinary that it seems like a fools errand to even think of resisting them. Yet, the progressives do this out a sense of justice, accountability and fairness. This is very admirable and many people, like me, support you even though distance prevents us from helping you directly.
One thing which one needs to analyze is the reason for the fanatical devotion of the orthodox to the clergy, and, in particular, for the da'i. Bohras do not flock around the Sayedna because they fear him. They sincerely love him and respect him greatly. It would be a most interesting to study the psychology of the common Bohras which leads them to behave in such pathetically subservient manner. Perhaps the results would be moot but it would make an interesting sociological study.
The fanaticism does not end with the da'i but goes on and on: bohras bend over for every so-called Shezada, bhaisaheb, shaikh and mullah. The common bohra bends over abjectly in front of these "leaders", the motion having become a natural reaction. These mullahs have so drilled the worthlessness of the self when compared to the da'i and his cronies that bohras have lost all self-respect. These thugs have converted an egalitarian religion into a personal fiefdom in which the even the ground on which the da'i walks is hallowed. Bohras sing songs that even if they skin themselves to make shoes for the da'i that would not be enough.
As you said, to one conditioned to having their life run by the mullahs the freedom and exhilaration that comes from making choices for oneself is lost. We do not need to ask the mullah to pick names for our children, beg them permission to get married or bribe and cajol them to get our dead buried. There is great responsibility with the ability to make choices but we have happily taken this on. We love our community, our traditions and way of life and have decided to keep it "ours" and not hand over every last bit of control to the kothar machinery. A mullah should serve the community and not the other way round. Among the orthodox it is just the reverse: every random mullah collects hefty sums as salaams and, to boot, has bohras grovel in front of him. The progressives will have none of this.
One achievement of the progressives is the modernization of the bohra society. Most progressives are tolerant and leave matters of conscience to individuals. There are fanatics even among the progressives, of course, but not many pay attention to these. We have become more accepting, caring and secular, without loosing our fundamental cultural identity. The study of literature and philosophy is not off-limits and permission is not needed to learn. Neither does one need to attended carefully orchestrated sabaaks where often even taking notes is prohibited.
I think that the orthodox/progressive battle is very asymmetric. It is not just a matter of resources, but also of incessant propaganda and brainwashing. The orthodox are taught from an early age that the da'i is so exalted that even thinking that he could possibly be wrong or that he should not be unconditionally obeyed is a major sin, not pardonable by Allah himself. As if Allah has nothing better to do! Fighting against such relentless propaganda is nearly impossible. Worse, this propaganda is starts early in a bohra child's life, as young as 4 years of age, and they will never learn the great variety and richness of our religious traditions.
There is a small way in which each of us can contribute, specially on this board. Lets not go overboard in our criticism. Let not hatred rule us and lets think clearly and be generous even great wrong has been done us. Many orthodox who come here are essentially irredeemable but there are many who would be swayed and sympathize if we were polite and not offend them at every possible occasion. I know it is hard to control oneself in the heat of the moment, but lets try and do our best not to feed the bogey-man image the orthodox have painted about us.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Dear Humsafar,Humsafar wrote:Thank you everyone for your kind words. It must be clear by now that Progticide is too smart by half. He's shifty and dishonest and is now derailing his own topic. From asking what have reformists accomplished, he's now questioning the very dawoodi bohraness of reformists. Unable to counter reformists' charges in any credible way he now questions the doctrinal credibility of reformists themesleves. We must feel sorry for people who are obliged to play such intellectual gymnastics in order to avoid discussing the real issues.
For argument's sake let's accept that reformists are not "technically" dawoodi bohras and have no right to question the affairs of the community. But do the charges they level against the mafia clergy stand on their own or not? Religious and financial corruption, coercion and mind-control, abuse of religion for personal gain, lack of accountability and autonomy, the cult of the dai and the single-minded lust for money and splendour. These are well-documented facts which stand on their own. Their validity does not depend on who is making these charges. So, if you're honest then let's discuss these issues and don't hide behind technicalities and doctrinal niceties.
The question of lack of central leadership is again a paper tiger which is raised and shot down. Abdes are skilled at making paper tigers, I wonder if it's part of their sabak curriculum!!! And of course they are willfully ignorant of how reformists operate and manage their affairs. Reformists have a central authority - Central Board of Dawoodi Bohra Community (CBDBC) - a council of members from all over India (and guest members from abroad) which defines and implements official reformist policies. The official stand on things doctrinal is that reformists accept the fundamental tenets of the Islmaili/Mustalian/Tayaabi/Dawoodi faith. We accept the line of duat up to the current Dai. So we are Dawoodi Bohras. Period.
But the unfounded assumption in the abde mind is that you're not a true dawoodi bohra if you question the dai. Abdes have been brainwashed into believing this. They have lost the capacity to distinguish between questioning the authority of the dai from questioning the behaviour of the dai. What reformists are questioning is the latter. And there is nothing in the scripture or tradition that prevents them from doing so. But the mafia clergy is clever, in the last two generations they have morphed the dai into an absolute authority. The emphasis on the infallibility of the dai, the misaaq and raza have been made central pillars of faith to browbeat the opposition and bamboozle ignorant Bohras. Reformists challenge the doctrinal validity of these tenets which they have time and again proved to be of recent origin without any grounding in either tradition or scripture. So, to pin us down on the infallibility of and lack of allegiance to the "haq na saheb" is a vain attempt to discredit reformists.
Before declaring reformists as non-dawoodi bohras, prove that the dai is inafllible, that misaaq and raza are fundamental tenets of Musltalian/Tayaabi/Dawoodi faith.
I have No issues with the reformist stand on accountability and etc. But what you are saying that reformists accept the fundamental tenets of the Islmaili/Mustalian/Tayaabi/Dawoodi faith is contradictory to what i have seen and observing since the day i have joined the forum.
I have came across many dicsussion on this forum, which made me think ( Some what believe) that progressive are inclined to sunni and wahabi school of thoughts. Forget ab the Dawoodi Bohra faith, some of your people urge and support on point which even questions the basic shiaa belief.
For example :
1.) Do you believe in Imamuzaman ? ( most of you make mockery and questioning the existance of Imamuzaman.)
2.) Do you heartfully accept maatam as part of our faith or it is just chest beating for u. ? ( some of you asked for authenticate hadith and verses on maatam.)
3.) Do you believe in observing ziyarat and pilgrimage ? ( some of you take objection on observing ziyarat ).
4.) Whats your stand on first three Khalifs and Aysha ? ( most of you not only defend but praise them and questions bohras for sending curses , BUT, infact
Shias all over the world believes the same and even burn their effigies on Eid-E-Zehra day ).
What you have to comment on it Or will anybody throws light on Progressive stand on the points above ?
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Reformist ‘official’ stand is clear. They stand by the articles of faith which were in place by the time of the satr of the 21st Imam.
Religion of Bohras is Islam and its foundation is the Quran. Daim al-Islam is the statement of the Bohra faith which seeks to justify the authority of the Imam on the basis of the Quran and Sunnah.
People who identify themselves as sympathetic to reformists participate on this forum are not officially ‘Reformists’ but they contribute on their own behalf. You will notice that there is a wide variety of views represented here.
There are extremist Sunnis who charge that the religion of Bohras and of all Shia is based on lies. Their knee-jerk reaction is that any hadith from a Shia source is a lie. They charge that Bohras and Shia are not Muslims but idol-worshippers of Ahl-e-Bayt. Reform minded Bohras reject this charge but acknowledge that Bohras, in recent times, have strayed into idol-worship of the current Dai and his father. However, both the orthodox and the reformist Bohras would categorically reject any notion that worshipping a human is an article of the Bohra or Shia faith. However, you will continue reading this from extremist Sunnis on this site.
There are extremist and fanatical Bohras who display almost total ignorance of religion. Their main contribution is heckling. They do not contribute anything useful to carry discussion forward. Some of them abuse revered personalities of Islam like the 3 Khalifas and Ummul Mumineen, Aaisha. While the Shia, including Bohras, seek to justify ‘cursing’ with respect to Quran and Sunna, it is not an article of faith for Muslims. However, outright abuse is not permitted by Quran or Sunna. Nothing is gained by cursing revered personalities of the others and by stopping the practice, there will be a rapprochement between the Shia and Sunni without in any way diminishing the faith of the Shia. Remember, ‘cursing’ is not an article of faith for Muslims, Shia or Sunni.
There are devoted Bohras who will charge that observations by reformists, especially in the discussions of faith, are false but refuse to engage in debate by providing a reasoned rebuttal. They invoke their ‘oath of silence’ in these matters.
There are reformists, which I believe represent the view of the vast majority of Bohras, who seek to bring reform to accountability and stop abuses by the members of the ‘Royal’ family and the clergy. They are closest to official ‘Reformist’ agenda. They do not dispute any of the main features of the current belief and practice such as existence of Imamuz Zamaan or the legitimacy of the Dai. They do not dispute the practice of maatam, jaman or visiting graves, although they may have views about their extreme manifestation.
There are radical reformists who seek to get justification for the practice of maatam, famously banned by the 43rd Dai. They question the legitimacy of infallibility of the Dai. (Personally, I question infallibility of Imams after Imam Husain because I cannot justify it with reference to Quran.) They seek justification for the practice of Sujood to Dai as well as Qadambosi because they appear to be shirk and prohibited by the Quran.
There are agnostics who doubt the existence of Imam-us Zamaan. (If the Dai can do whatever an Imam can do, as devotees believe, then where is the justification for continuing the belief in an Imam?) What could he do that the Dai cannot? When Prophet left, we were told that Imam is necessary to guide in accordance with Quran. When the Imam left, we were told that Dai is necessary to guide. If there is not going to be any Prophet and we are told that ‘Daawat no silsilo’, meaning the chain of the Dais, will continue till Qayamat, what is the point of Imamuz Zamaan?
Then there are outright atheists who deny the existence of Imamuz Zamaan and in this they are closest to extremist Sunnis on this board.
None of the categories of these participants, except that of extremist Sunnis, can be remotely be considered to be Wahhabis.
In conclusion,there is a wide variety of viewpoints represented here and they are not all official “Reformist’ viewpoints. Participants put forward views in their personal capacity and do not represent Official Reformists any more than abusive abdes represent mainstream Bohras.
Religion of Bohras is Islam and its foundation is the Quran. Daim al-Islam is the statement of the Bohra faith which seeks to justify the authority of the Imam on the basis of the Quran and Sunnah.
People who identify themselves as sympathetic to reformists participate on this forum are not officially ‘Reformists’ but they contribute on their own behalf. You will notice that there is a wide variety of views represented here.
There are extremist Sunnis who charge that the religion of Bohras and of all Shia is based on lies. Their knee-jerk reaction is that any hadith from a Shia source is a lie. They charge that Bohras and Shia are not Muslims but idol-worshippers of Ahl-e-Bayt. Reform minded Bohras reject this charge but acknowledge that Bohras, in recent times, have strayed into idol-worship of the current Dai and his father. However, both the orthodox and the reformist Bohras would categorically reject any notion that worshipping a human is an article of the Bohra or Shia faith. However, you will continue reading this from extremist Sunnis on this site.
There are extremist and fanatical Bohras who display almost total ignorance of religion. Their main contribution is heckling. They do not contribute anything useful to carry discussion forward. Some of them abuse revered personalities of Islam like the 3 Khalifas and Ummul Mumineen, Aaisha. While the Shia, including Bohras, seek to justify ‘cursing’ with respect to Quran and Sunna, it is not an article of faith for Muslims. However, outright abuse is not permitted by Quran or Sunna. Nothing is gained by cursing revered personalities of the others and by stopping the practice, there will be a rapprochement between the Shia and Sunni without in any way diminishing the faith of the Shia. Remember, ‘cursing’ is not an article of faith for Muslims, Shia or Sunni.
There are devoted Bohras who will charge that observations by reformists, especially in the discussions of faith, are false but refuse to engage in debate by providing a reasoned rebuttal. They invoke their ‘oath of silence’ in these matters.
There are reformists, which I believe represent the view of the vast majority of Bohras, who seek to bring reform to accountability and stop abuses by the members of the ‘Royal’ family and the clergy. They are closest to official ‘Reformist’ agenda. They do not dispute any of the main features of the current belief and practice such as existence of Imamuz Zamaan or the legitimacy of the Dai. They do not dispute the practice of maatam, jaman or visiting graves, although they may have views about their extreme manifestation.
There are radical reformists who seek to get justification for the practice of maatam, famously banned by the 43rd Dai. They question the legitimacy of infallibility of the Dai. (Personally, I question infallibility of Imams after Imam Husain because I cannot justify it with reference to Quran.) They seek justification for the practice of Sujood to Dai as well as Qadambosi because they appear to be shirk and prohibited by the Quran.
There are agnostics who doubt the existence of Imam-us Zamaan. (If the Dai can do whatever an Imam can do, as devotees believe, then where is the justification for continuing the belief in an Imam?) What could he do that the Dai cannot? When Prophet left, we were told that Imam is necessary to guide in accordance with Quran. When the Imam left, we were told that Dai is necessary to guide. If there is not going to be any Prophet and we are told that ‘Daawat no silsilo’, meaning the chain of the Dais, will continue till Qayamat, what is the point of Imamuz Zamaan?
Then there are outright atheists who deny the existence of Imamuz Zamaan and in this they are closest to extremist Sunnis on this board.
None of the categories of these participants, except that of extremist Sunnis, can be remotely be considered to be Wahhabis.
In conclusion,there is a wide variety of viewpoints represented here and they are not all official “Reformist’ viewpoints. Participants put forward views in their personal capacity and do not represent Official Reformists any more than abusive abdes represent mainstream Bohras.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Biradar, agree with you completely. Given the forces we are up against, reformists may as well be tilting at windmills. But we must do what we have to do. You may not be able to help us directly but what people like you do on this forum is a very important dimension of our struggle.I thank all our friends and supporters for the time and effort they spent here in writing cogently and knowledgeably to counter mafia clergy's propaganda. And I also agree that we keep the discussion civil and on topic. A big thank you to you all.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Stanger, As I said, that is the official reformists position. What people say on the forum is their individual opinion, and most of them are not even
"open" reformists. Abdes have a vested interest in taking these individual opinion and extrapolating it as reformist beliefs. This is an open forum and people are free to say what they want. I urge you and all your fellow-abdes not to play this devious games with us. Reformists are not concerned with religious issues. Can we please accept this fact once and for all?
To answer your question:
1) Yes.
2) Matam is not part of belief, but just a tradition. And yes reformist do perform matam for the shadat of Imam Hussain.
3) Yes.
4) The same as the orthodox bohras'.
This is the "offical" position. Individual opinions may differ.
"open" reformists. Abdes have a vested interest in taking these individual opinion and extrapolating it as reformist beliefs. This is an open forum and people are free to say what they want. I urge you and all your fellow-abdes not to play this devious games with us. Reformists are not concerned with religious issues. Can we please accept this fact once and for all?
To answer your question:
1) Yes.
2) Matam is not part of belief, but just a tradition. And yes reformist do perform matam for the shadat of Imam Hussain.
3) Yes.
4) The same as the orthodox bohras'.
This is the "offical" position. Individual opinions may differ.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Porus, you beat me to it. Thank you for elaborating on different viewpoints that people bring to this forum, and summing up the reformist position. Somehow the abdes have a hard time understanding that there's nothing "official" about people who come here speak in their personal capacities. Or maybe they understand but are more intent on heckling and creating confusion. Thank you.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
There is another category that seems to have been overlooked. This is the cateogory of the disbelieving reformist. This reformist does not believe in God, he doesn't believe in the Quran to be the word of God and hence it follows that he obviously doesn't believe in the existence of an Imam or the position of the Dai. But the reason he refers to himself as a reformist Bohra is because of social considerations only. This reformist might go to the mosque to pray namaz and might even pretend to fast, but you will find him doubting pretty much anything that is a core of the faith and I am not talking about bohra faith or shia faith as they are corruptions of the true Islamic faith.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Further to my previous post, I ought to perhaps add a sub-category to Radical Reformists category.
This sub-category includes those who have raised an issue regarding the succession of the 47th Dai. They believe that all Dai's since the 47th are 'care-taker Dais'. This issue has been discussed on this board several times but as the proponents have not produced clear evidence for their proposition, it appears not to warrant further discussion.
Official Reformist position on this matter is also very clear. According to this position, succession of the Dai is not in dispute, and the current Dai is the legitimate holder of the office of the Dai al-Mutlaq. Any discussion concerning it is akin to that regarding 'Loch Ness Monster'. It is simply an amusing digression!
I thought of putting this forward in the interest of completion.
This sub-category includes those who have raised an issue regarding the succession of the 47th Dai. They believe that all Dai's since the 47th are 'care-taker Dais'. This issue has been discussed on this board several times but as the proponents have not produced clear evidence for their proposition, it appears not to warrant further discussion.
Official Reformist position on this matter is also very clear. According to this position, succession of the Dai is not in dispute, and the current Dai is the legitimate holder of the office of the Dai al-Mutlaq. Any discussion concerning it is akin to that regarding 'Loch Ness Monster'. It is simply an amusing digression!
I thought of putting this forward in the interest of completion.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
The Type of People Anajmi has described in his last post is increasing day by day ........ I for one is also inclined to that Line of Thought ........
Religion has not given us anything .......... mere divisions and divisions. Theocrates have been Ruling, Non-theocartes even today Rule in the name of Religion.
For how long 'God' will tolerate all this?? An earthquate there, a flood here, from Him is not going to help. Mankind has suffered enough in the hands of Religios Zealots. 'God' has been used, rather misused.
Today is the Time to Shun Religion.
Religion has not given us anything .......... mere divisions and divisions. Theocrates have been Ruling, Non-theocartes even today Rule in the name of Religion.
For how long 'God' will tolerate all this?? An earthquate there, a flood here, from Him is not going to help. Mankind has suffered enough in the hands of Religios Zealots. 'God' has been used, rather misused.
Today is the Time to Shun Religion.
-
progticide
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
You progs seem to have a serious problem with undertanding matters or issues under discussion. You can't understand simple questions and like an old broken record start posting same rubbish on every thread again and again and again.
You progs have written at length on all things except what is under discussion on this thread. I am beginning to wonder if you people suffer from a common genetic disorder resulting in this behaviour and if this was the cause of your going astray.
Who is interested in knowing the classification of progs and Dawoodi Bohras and what variety of them exist or not. If you have done any reserach on this subject then start a new thread and post the nonsense there.
Who has asked you about your opinion on the office and legitimacy of the Dai e Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohras. We dont need to know your stand on that since that is the matter for Dawoodi Bohras and you progs are already outside the Dawoodi Bohra community.
The questions were related to the office of your Dai e Mutlaq and authority of the same within the prog community. So why are you discussing about our Dai e Mutlaq. If you have your own Dai then discuss about that since every Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community has a Dai e Mutlaq office. So if you dont have one then you are not Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community since the office of Dai e Mutlaq was instituted upon the explicit order of Imam Aamir (A.S.). So whatever stupid body that you have formulated does not have any legitimate standing withing the Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community and you can enjoy this creation & innovation of yours by calling yourselves as Sunnis which for all practical reasons you are moving towards.
If you wish to mention the Dai e Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohras as yours too then there are some basis procedures you need to follow which I am sure you guys are aware of.
If not, then talk about the aforementioned issues with regard to Prog community. You may chose to further classify yourselves into those subclasses that you people have mentioned above. We have no problems with that as long as you keep that kind of nuisance within your community only.
Therefore, kindly read the issues and questions that I have raised above and answer them from within the prog domain and without tresspassing into Dawoodi Bohra domain..
You progs have written at length on all things except what is under discussion on this thread. I am beginning to wonder if you people suffer from a common genetic disorder resulting in this behaviour and if this was the cause of your going astray.
Who is interested in knowing the classification of progs and Dawoodi Bohras and what variety of them exist or not. If you have done any reserach on this subject then start a new thread and post the nonsense there.
Who has asked you about your opinion on the office and legitimacy of the Dai e Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohras. We dont need to know your stand on that since that is the matter for Dawoodi Bohras and you progs are already outside the Dawoodi Bohra community.
The questions were related to the office of your Dai e Mutlaq and authority of the same within the prog community. So why are you discussing about our Dai e Mutlaq. If you have your own Dai then discuss about that since every Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community has a Dai e Mutlaq office. So if you dont have one then you are not Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community since the office of Dai e Mutlaq was instituted upon the explicit order of Imam Aamir (A.S.). So whatever stupid body that you have formulated does not have any legitimate standing withing the Shia Ismaili Mustaliya Tayyibi community and you can enjoy this creation & innovation of yours by calling yourselves as Sunnis which for all practical reasons you are moving towards.
If you wish to mention the Dai e Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohras as yours too then there are some basis procedures you need to follow which I am sure you guys are aware of.
If not, then talk about the aforementioned issues with regard to Prog community. You may chose to further classify yourselves into those subclasses that you people have mentioned above. We have no problems with that as long as you keep that kind of nuisance within your community only.
Therefore, kindly read the issues and questions that I have raised above and answer them from within the prog domain and without tresspassing into Dawoodi Bohra domain..
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Humsafar,Humsafar wrote:Stanger, As I said, that is the official reformists position. What people say on the forum is their individual opinion, and most of them are not even
"open" reformists. Abdes have a vested interest in taking these individual opinion and extrapolating it as reformist beliefs. This is an open forum and people are free to say what they want. I urge you and all your fellow-abdes not to play this devious games with us. Reformists are not concerned with religious issues. Can we please accept this fact once and for all?
To answer your question:
1) Yes.
2) Matam is not part of belief, but just a tradition. And yes reformist do perform matam for the shadat of Imam Hussain.
3) Yes.
4) The same as the orthodox bohras'.
This is the "offical" position. Individual opinions may differ.
Thanks for your to the point reply.
This is not a devious game, you thought to be. I was in no mood to defame reformist or extrapolating reformist belief in wrong way BUT you need to understand one thing that when any member,for ex.( Gulam Mohammed ), says something and argument in favour of reformist. He projecting himself as a Progressive bohra.
whatever he is going to say will not be taken as Individual opinion but reformist stand.
and i am saying something and argument something in favour of mainstream. I am projecting myself as orthodox dawoodi bohra.
Whether its my individual opinion but you people are going to take my point on behalf of all the 'ABDES'. It Is a fact and you just cant help it.
So let me make one thing clear to you. .Many mainstream bohras are visiting this forum daily, not participating but atleast they are reading and you cant go to everybody and explain that this is not the official Reformist stand but its rather an individual opinion. This condition is No way going to help you.
As i have said earlier, Few from mainstream can deny that Reform is needed in the community ( on some part) and they want changes..Yes, for sure, they do.
BUT let me tell you and all the reformist one thing very clearly.
Your goal can't be achieved as long as you question the basic dawoodi bohra faith,which i have mentioned above Or as long as you questions Dai !!!
You have to criticize Aamils, Do it. .Peoples may agree with you.
You have to criticize system, Do it. .Peoples may agree with you.
You have to criticize Jamaat, Do it. .Peoples may agree with you.
You have to criticize syedna, Dont Do it. .Not a Single ( simple or complex bohra) man, is gonna stand beside you !!!
You may call it as Brainwashing, You may call it Cult, you may call it ignorance, you may call it whatever you like but Its truth & you need to realise it soon.
Not needed to mention but i am an orthodox bohra but I don't carries typical mentality, niether i keep beard, nor does i keep Topi. Nor i am a sabak attender.
But I do love Sydena wa Moulana Abul Qaid Johar Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb (T.U.S) selflessly, Our spiritual father and well wisher, Our Dai and Your Dai.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Mr. progticide. Perhaps you are too dense to understand this, so let me clarify some things for you. First, no one is under any obligation to answer any of your questions. If you wish to get answers, first assume the stance of a learner: be humble and polite and perhaps you will get some responses. Spewing the same old nonsense will not help you. The people on this board present their own viewpoints and most are not "card-carrying" reformists. Please keep that in mind. Unlike your ilk there is no compulsion to follow the party line here. If you wish to have a fruitful discussion please curb your passion and anger and learn to reason like a grown up, rather than a little spoiled child.progticide wrote:Therefore, kindly read the issues and questions that I have raised above and answer them from within the prog domain and without tresspassing into Dawoodi Bohra domain..
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Kaka Akela
- Posts: 484
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Stranger:
I am similar to you, and I totally agree with you but I have some reservations in my mind.
You can not surgically remove Syedna from bhaisahebs/amils, systems and jamaats etc. because eventually it boils down to the malfeasence on part of Syedna. it is like if my young son misbehaves in thaal, they would tell him hey kid didn't your ma baap teach you any manners?
And syedna has professed all along that he is our Ma Baap, so where do we go?????
Syedna is the only one who can reprimand Bhaisahebs/amils to correct their ways, it is not a job for you and me.
I am similar to you, and I totally agree with you but I have some reservations in my mind.
You can not surgically remove Syedna from bhaisahebs/amils, systems and jamaats etc. because eventually it boils down to the malfeasence on part of Syedna. it is like if my young son misbehaves in thaal, they would tell him hey kid didn't your ma baap teach you any manners?
And syedna has professed all along that he is our Ma Baap, so where do we go?????
Syedna is the only one who can reprimand Bhaisahebs/amils to correct their ways, it is not a job for you and me.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Well saidAl Zulfiqar wrote: the enforcement of dress codes, the ten fold increase in sham religious taxes, the hundred fold increase in tyranny and intimidation, the elaborate creation of a draconian system to regulate every aspect of an abde's life, incl. how they are going to defecate in which type of toilet, what sort of beards they should keep, how their travels and visits are to be monitored with cunning methods of color-graded ejamaat cards, safai chitthis, illegal and unislamic practices of enforced taking of raza for every trivial bit of b.s., reducing a proud, independent, intelligent and generally self-reliant community into meek, fearful and subservient slaves and gullible fools, turning them into mushriqs and leading them towards kufr under the convenient garb of islam, exploiting the sheep and subjugating them and perverting the community into a cult, amassing untold riches and using this ill-gotten wealth to buy influence, corrupting the morals of petty politicians and govt officials, bribing, threatening and blackmailing morally decrepit individuals, manipulating easily bought media and seeking photo-ops with greedy and low-life celebrities, opportunistic politicians and others, isolating the community with cleverly designed stratagems of continous and meaningless religious rituals and changing their visible identities so that they become misfits in world society etc etc etc... this is abde progress????
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Hamsafar, Biradar & Porus very well said.
In addition to that, reformist minded people are scolded all the time. Forces of status quo are always the beneficiary of it, and they want at all cost to remain in status quo. As reform is always humane and compassionate, respects the basic dignity of human being, opposite is oppression and cruelty.
Fear is their best weapon, fear of unknown, and greed and lust for here and hereafter are their beloved tools. They will mold and scold their own teachings, their own belief, their own founding fathers, if do not suite their desire and debauchery.
Take an example of Ali, founding father of our faith and doctrine, but hierarchy would not follow his example, they will not follow his simple and ground to earth life style. His compassion for man kind, his valor to stand against the forces of status quo, his candor for human dignity. But they will mold his teachings, they will discard his own life and adapt boisterous and extravagant life style. Ali’s off springs never called themselves prince and princess.
His eldest son gave up throne, because he would not stand the blood bath that might have followed if he remained adamant. His younger son Hussain sacrificed his life and stood against the forces of status quo. Hussain’s son Zainulabidin led a very simple and benevolent life. But did not give up what was right.
Now take our administration, they would repeat their name countless times, but is ready to give in at the first instance, when their material interest is compromised. May it be Narendra Modi, or Zia ul Haque. May it be Saddam Hussain or Bal thackery. Our administration has always supported tyrants and usurpers. Our leader s has never led us to the path of emancipation and liberty, dignity and compassion. Rather we are offered un hindered entry into heaven provided we meet monetary and material obligation.
We should have observed Syedna Saheb’s centenary, but was all the pomp and show and extravagance necessary, how did hundreds of crores of rupees and millions of dollars elevate the stature of the seat.
I have heard that Syedna Saheb is not feeling well in London, hopefully he will get well soon, but as soon as he is active, there will be festivities and grand shows of one or other kind. During centenary celebrations no of bohras died in mishaps in Surat, Mumbai, other Indian cities, but not a word of compassion was uttered for those left behind or bereaving families.
It is these reform minded people who are raising the voice of compassion, following the true path of Ali, Hassan and Hussain. Who are standing up against usurpation and exploitation, though their voices may not be so loud, and drowned in the noise of wah wah and ji ji. But rest assured these voices will be heard, a day will come when people will demand dignity and humane treatment.
In addition to that, reformist minded people are scolded all the time. Forces of status quo are always the beneficiary of it, and they want at all cost to remain in status quo. As reform is always humane and compassionate, respects the basic dignity of human being, opposite is oppression and cruelty.
Fear is their best weapon, fear of unknown, and greed and lust for here and hereafter are their beloved tools. They will mold and scold their own teachings, their own belief, their own founding fathers, if do not suite their desire and debauchery.
Take an example of Ali, founding father of our faith and doctrine, but hierarchy would not follow his example, they will not follow his simple and ground to earth life style. His compassion for man kind, his valor to stand against the forces of status quo, his candor for human dignity. But they will mold his teachings, they will discard his own life and adapt boisterous and extravagant life style. Ali’s off springs never called themselves prince and princess.
His eldest son gave up throne, because he would not stand the blood bath that might have followed if he remained adamant. His younger son Hussain sacrificed his life and stood against the forces of status quo. Hussain’s son Zainulabidin led a very simple and benevolent life. But did not give up what was right.
Now take our administration, they would repeat their name countless times, but is ready to give in at the first instance, when their material interest is compromised. May it be Narendra Modi, or Zia ul Haque. May it be Saddam Hussain or Bal thackery. Our administration has always supported tyrants and usurpers. Our leader s has never led us to the path of emancipation and liberty, dignity and compassion. Rather we are offered un hindered entry into heaven provided we meet monetary and material obligation.
We should have observed Syedna Saheb’s centenary, but was all the pomp and show and extravagance necessary, how did hundreds of crores of rupees and millions of dollars elevate the stature of the seat.
I have heard that Syedna Saheb is not feeling well in London, hopefully he will get well soon, but as soon as he is active, there will be festivities and grand shows of one or other kind. During centenary celebrations no of bohras died in mishaps in Surat, Mumbai, other Indian cities, but not a word of compassion was uttered for those left behind or bereaving families.
It is these reform minded people who are raising the voice of compassion, following the true path of Ali, Hassan and Hussain. Who are standing up against usurpation and exploitation, though their voices may not be so loud, and drowned in the noise of wah wah and ji ji. But rest assured these voices will be heard, a day will come when people will demand dignity and humane treatment.
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profastian
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Once again, you have proved you are a Jahil. No philosophical insights in Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada, you are joking rightporus wrote: No doubt Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada is a brilliant Arabic composition for a marsiya of Imam Husain's martyrdom. However, it is used primarily as a cadence support for breast beating and tear-shedding and it lacks philosophical insights of, say, Iqbal's Javed Nama or his Zarb-e-Kaleem.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
As a rule, I would not respond to this heckler. However let us see how much philosophical depth does the marsiya, Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada, displays by studying a couple of stanzas from it.profastian wrote:Once again, you have proved you are a Jahil. No philosophical insights in Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada, you are joking rightporus wrote: No doubt Ya Sayyid as-Shuhada is a brilliant Arabic composition for a marsiya of Imam Husain's martyrdom. However, it is used primarily as a cadence support for breast beating and tear-shedding and it lacks philosophical insights of, say, Iqbal's Javed Nama or his Zarb-e-Kaleem.
Ya ma’asharal mumineena, ibkoo al-imam al-mubeena
ibkoo al-humama al-yameena, ibkoo al-waliyya al-ameena
ibkoo ibna khayri an-nisaai
walahfata Ya Husayna, Ya Sayyid as-Shuhadai
O muminnen gathered here, weep over the manifest Imam
weep over the righteous hero, weep over the upright Wali
weep over the son of the best among women (Fatima Zahra)
We are filled with utmost remorse, O Husayn, Leader of the Martyrs
wa al’an Yazeed al-la’eena, wa naasiran wa mu’eena
lahu min al-zalimeena, ala bani yaseena
al-saadati an-nujabaai
walahfata Ya Husayna, Ya Sayyid as-Shuhadai
And send curses on Yazeed, the accursed, and on his helpers and facilitators
who rained oppression against the children of Yaseen (Muhammad)
who were the most noble and the most magnanimous
We are filled with utmost remorse, O Husayn, Leader of the Martyrs
These are the typical stanzas in the marsiya. I do not detect any philosophy in these words. As a marsiya, it does not particularly stand out and, frankly, it is pretty average. Bohras are dazzled by the Arabic of the marsiya. They do not understand the words. Some may have read translations which may be different from the more literal translation I have rendered here.
On cue, they start reciting this marsiya while beating their breasts. I doubt if it would generate emotion about Karbala which marsiya in Urdu or even lisaan-e-daawat would be capable of doing. Importance and awe in which this marsiya is held by Bohras owes more to their ignorance of its language and brainwashing. Very few will be able to judge it on its merits.
Anyone who thinks that there is deep philosophy in this marsiya should first understand what philosophy is and then explain philosophical insights they derived from it.
(Marsiya, as is well-known, is a specific genre of literature which, in verse form, recounts the story of Karbala. Its primary purpose is to provoke emotion, not to engage in philosophical intricacies which are dealt with in other literary genres such as masnavi).
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Hussain_KSA
- Posts: 874
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Oh brother Porus,
What you did. Aap ne un logo ka dharam bhasht kardiya. Why did you translate? They are not allowed to read translation. They think this is Nahjul Balagha and philosophy becasue they never know the meaning. They are reciting the same marsiya since 50 years. If you see the present trend, you are not allowed to read any marsiya or noha without raza. Gone are the days when we used to listen Meer Anis and Mirza Dabeer.
By the way I have scanned both the volumes of (دعايم الاسلام) and (تأويل الدعائم ) beside other books in Arabic. I would like to share it with you.
Regards.
What you did. Aap ne un logo ka dharam bhasht kardiya. Why did you translate? They are not allowed to read translation. They think this is Nahjul Balagha and philosophy becasue they never know the meaning. They are reciting the same marsiya since 50 years. If you see the present trend, you are not allowed to read any marsiya or noha without raza. Gone are the days when we used to listen Meer Anis and Mirza Dabeer.
By the way I have scanned both the volumes of (دعايم الاسلام) and (تأويل الدعائم ) beside other books in Arabic. I would like to share it with you.
Regards.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Br. Porus or Hussain KSA
Could you be kind enough to translate the entire Ya Saidu Suhadai it will be more intelligent and knowledge for lot of people to know what are they reciting.
Could you be kind enough to translate the entire Ya Saidu Suhadai it will be more intelligent and knowledge for lot of people to know what are they reciting.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
I willstranger wrote: You have to criticize syedna, Dont Do it. .Not a Single ( simple or complex bohra) man, is gonna stand beside you !!!
You may call it as Brainwashing, You may call it Cult, you may call it ignorance, you may call it whatever you like but Its truth & you need to realise it soon.
,but on a serious note, I'll have to agree with stranger about criticizing syedna saheb to an abde.. It is unimaginable for them to think that syedna saheb is part of, or master mind behind all the things that have been mentioned on this thread/forum
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accountability
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:01 am
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Then dont crticize and make the reform happen.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
I willBooM wrote:stranger wrote: You have to criticize syedna, Dont Do it. .Not a Single ( simple or complex bohra) man, is gonna stand beside you !!!
You may call it as Brainwashing, You may call it Cult, you may call it ignorance, you may call it whatever you like but Its truth & you need to realise it soon.
sure you can. . .I considered 'man' only.
Touch Touch. . Take it light
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Like I care, what you cowards think of me .. You fatties are worthless & out of shape, just like your women Absolutely good for nada.. this makes me wonder as usual hehe , what have the bohra women accomplished huh??
.. You fatties are worthless & out of shape, just like your women Absolutely good for nada.. this makes me wonder as usual hehe , what have the bohra women accomplished huh??Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
It is a very long marsiya and translating it into English would be a major project requiring enormous time and effort. I have made a start but cannot promise to finish it. In the meanwhile, if you want a specific stanza translated, let me know and I will see what I can do.omabharti wrote:Br. Porus or Hussain KSA
Could you be kind enough to translate the entire Ya Saidu Suhadai it will be more intelligent and knowledge for lot of people to know what are they reciting.
Here are the first two stanzas:
I have changed the translation of 'walahfata' (actually two words 'wa lahfata) to reflect the literalness of the interjection 'lahfata' meaning roughly 'O what a sorry state of affairs'.
**
Ya Sayyid as-Shuhadai, khamisa ahl il-kisaai
ala azeemi balaai, naalaka fi karbalai
tool az-zamaani bukaaee
walahfata Ya Husaina, Ya Sayyid as-Shuhadai
O Leader of the Martyrs, the fifth of the People of the Cloak*
Over extreme calamity that visited upon you in Karbala
we will remain weeping for a long time
Such great sorrow, O Husayn, O Leader of the Martyrs
* This is in reference to the hadith of the cloak (kisaa)
Yabna Rasullullahi, ya khayra shahanshahi
Aahin alayka fa-aahi, tatra bi-ghayri tanaahi
ma’a damm’atin hamraai
walahfata Ya Husaina, Ya Sayyid as-Shuhadai
O son of Rasulullah, O best of Kings
We sigh for you; sigh after sigh, one after another without end
while shedding tears of blood (literally ‘red tears’)
Such great sorrow, O Husayn, O Leader of the Martyrs
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Br. Porus
Thank you for what ever you can do
I just realized reading few stanzas that this is really a very nice description of events in Karbala recited in Arabic. You are right , this is very simple a true story told in Arabic and not an emmotial appeal as done in typical Urdu/Farsi/Punjabi Marsiyas
The more we read this translation, more we can appreciate this Marsiya of Ya Sayada Shudai.
Once again thank you for your efforts
Thank you for what ever you can do
I just realized reading few stanzas that this is really a very nice description of events in Karbala recited in Arabic. You are right , this is very simple a true story told in Arabic and not an emmotial appeal as done in typical Urdu/Farsi/Punjabi Marsiyas
The more we read this translation, more we can appreciate this Marsiya of Ya Sayada Shudai.
Once again thank you for your efforts
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
الأخ حسين،Hussain_KSA wrote:Oh brother Porus,
By the way I have scanned both the volumes of (دعايم الاسلام) and (تأويل الدعائم ) beside other books in Arabic. I would like to share it with you.
Regards.
سأكون سعيدا جدا لالحصول على هذه الكتب. هل هي في شكل پي. دي. إف.؟
أعتقد أن لديك بالفعل عنوان أنا أرسلت لك من قبل. الرجاء ارسال لها هناك.
شكرا جزيلا
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Consider this scenario: Egyptians are out in the streets protesting against President Mubarak's corrupt and ruthless regime. In response a wise guy - Mubarak supporter - tells the protesters that their protest is not valid because by the very act of protesting they have become non-Egyptian and therefore must choose their own President. Thankfully no Mubarak supporter ever said such an insane thing. But our abde progticide is saying the same thing (in the Bohra context) over and over to reformists. He insists that reformists become another splinter Isamaili sect and appoint their own dai ul mutlaq. So urgent and persistent is his appeal that if we did not appoint the Dai soon enough I'm afraid he might appoint himself as one.
Frankly, one can only respond to absurdity with absurdity. However, in his last post there is one thing that stands out:
Frankly, one can only respond to absurdity with absurdity. However, in his last post there is one thing that stands out:
It's possible that we may not be doing it right. Pray tell us what are the basis (sic) procedures that need to be followed?progticide wrote:If you wish to mention the Dai e Mutlaq of Dawoodi Bohras as yours too then there are some basis procedures you need to follow which I am sure you guys are aware of.
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
Stranger, your love for Dai should not be blind. If you really love and care about your dai then you should do something to end the misdeeds which you think are being perpetrated in his name. "Loving my dai" is an empty statement. How do express that love? By closing you eyes and minds to all the bad things that are happening in the community? Love can be a powerful force if only you understood its real meaning.
Kaka Akela's response to your post is apt. Parents have to take responsibility - to some extent - for the behaviour of their children.
Right, many people come to this forum and some do get put off by the strong language against the Sayedna and the mafia clergy. This is the nature of an open and free forum. But, as porus says, if you take out the "emotional charge" that some of us display here, most Bohras would agree with the reformist agenda - which is not against the dai but against the mafia clergy. And most Bohras understand this. Only a few abdes with "blind love" and ulterior motive make such a big issue of it.
Kaka Akela's response to your post is apt. Parents have to take responsibility - to some extent - for the behaviour of their children.
Right, many people come to this forum and some do get put off by the strong language against the Sayedna and the mafia clergy. This is the nature of an open and free forum. But, as porus says, if you take out the "emotional charge" that some of us display here, most Bohras would agree with the reformist agenda - which is not against the dai but against the mafia clergy. And most Bohras understand this. Only a few abdes with "blind love" and ulterior motive make such a big issue of it.
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ghulam muhammed
- Posts: 11653
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm
Re: What have the Progs accomplished afterall?....Nothing
I disagree with you brother. Although a bohra will not stand beside you in public but in closed doors they will very much agree with the dai's complicity with regard to the sorry state of affairs in the community. The fear psychosis prevents them from coming out in the open.stranger wrote:You have to criticize syedna, Dont Do it. .Not a Single ( simple or complex bohra) man, is gonna stand beside you !!!