Even Bahai belives Ali was the true sucessor...

[TBG]

AoA,

Pardon my lack of religious knowledge but i have read from differnet sources that Prophet (saw) prayed 3 times only in times of travel and during war. Therefore praying 3 times apart from these instances is not justified not allowed.

[stranger]

[ Read below from Sunni references ]

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1515
Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed the noon and afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and Isha' prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey.

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1516:
Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed the noon and afternoon prayers together in Medina without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey. (Abu Zubair said: I asked Sa'id [one of the narrators] why he did that. He said: I asked Ibn 'Abbas as you have asked me, and he replied that he [the Holy Prophet] wanted that no one among his Ummah should be put to [unnecessary] hardship.)

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1518:
Mu'adh reported: We set out with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) on the Tabuk expedition, and he observed the noon and afternoon prayers together and the sunset and 'Isha' prayers together.

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 1522:
Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed in Medina seven (rak'ahs) and eight (rak'ahs). (be combined). the noon and afternoon prayers (eight rak'ahs) and the sunset and 'Isha' prayers (seven rak'ahs).

[Muslim First]

['Shia Aalim Network QR] Combining Prayers

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/a ... 00301.html


Quote from above link
Br Stranger
Sorry to post this again but you fail to understand the post

2. The Shi`ah Jaferi are allowed to combine them as well as offer the prayers separately. Which of the two methods is better? The scholars saythat it is better to say them separately.

Brother Stranger

Just like Ithna Shia Alims why don’t you concede that it is better to pray separately and let the matter rest there?

[stranger]

Honestly Speaking br.,

i havn't read post from the link yet..but certainly will.

[ghulam muhammed]

In the era of the 51st and 52nd dai, many bohras have left the community and embraced Bahaism and prominent amongst them are Motiwalas of Nasik, Poonawalas of Devlali, near Nasik, A.G.Bookwalas of Mumbai, Lokhandwala from Mumbai who now lives at panchgani and even a close relative of Khorakhiwalas of Mumbai. In fact, the late Mr.Fakhrudin Motiwala was a close confidante of the 51st dai, wearing sherwani, topi and adorning a full grown beard at a time when this attire was not at all compulsory and one could hardly see any bohra in this attire.

[stranger]

['Shia Aalim Network QR] Combining Prayers

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/a ... 00301.html

Quote from above link

Br. Muslim First,
The link above is invalid/incomplete web address. can you check and confirm.

[Muslim First]

Br stranger

Link still works if you use my original post of Posts: 4456
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:01 am

Here is link again

['Aalim Network QR] Combining Prayers
http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/a ... 00301.html

Islam is not about what Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Jaffery, Wahbi, Ismaili, Fatemi or Dawoodi Bohra scholars say or teaches you. They just interprete it to the best of their ability and orientation.

If you and I are educated then it is our duty to understand Qur'an and ways of Our Prophet SAW in worshipping our creator which we call Allah SWT. There is plenty of material now available on net.

[sallu_baba]

Islam is not about what Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Jaffery, Wahbi, Ismaili, Fatemi or Dawoodi Bohra scholars say or teaches you. They just interprete it to the best of their ability and orientation.

If you and I are educated then it is our duty to understand Qur'an and ways of Our Prophet SAW in worshipping our creator which we call Allah SWT. There is plenty of material now available on net.

I second that.

[stranger]

Br stranger

Link still works if you use my original post of Posts: 4456
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 8:01 am

Here is link again

['Aalim Network QR] Combining Prayers
http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/a ... 00301.html

Islam is not about what Hanafi, Shafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Jaffery, Wahbi, Ismaili, Fatemi or Dawoodi Bohra scholars say or teaches you. They just interprete it to the best of their ability and orientation.

If you and I are educated then it is our duty to understand Qur'an and ways of Our Prophet SAW in worshipping our creator which we call Allah SWT. There is plenty of material now available on net.

Agreed with you bro...All are muslim and we all are here to worship Allah SWT....I also seconded you on it..
But still there must be some reason why one is shia, sunni, hanafi, ismaili, alavi and dawoodi...there is some history, some foundation, some base, from which we have inherited our culture....So as we are following..

[ghulam muhammed]

But still there must be some reason why one is shia, sunni, hanafi, ismaili, alavi and dawoodi...there is some history, some foundation, some base, from which we have inherited our culture....So as we are following..

Bro stranger,

It is very important for one to know the true history and its roots with regard to various schools of thoughts and then analyze the same with the current scenerio wherein one will find that the thoughts have been corrupted and the earlier beliefs deviated by sectarian leaders for their vested interests. As regards culture, every region has one but that should not clash with the tenets of religion as prescribed in the Holy Quran, culture is dear to one but nothing should be above the religion of Allah.

[attarwala_salim]

this frenchise is the law off allah an it is his only all prophr\ets were only to say what was told to them an not include or exculude an word, an my frnd this is the religion that god has profesised ok not any human an read then quran to know the words off allah
THE TRUTH QURAN
Amal ki kitab hai, dau ki kitab bana diya
Samajhne ki kitab hai, Padhne ki kitab bana diya
Zindoo ka dastoor hai, murdo ka mansoor bana diya
Inqilab ki kitab hai, sirf sawab ki kitab bana diya Tasqeer-e- kaayenat ka dars dene aayi hai, sirf madarso ka missab bana diya.
Murda dillo ko zinda karne ayi hai, murdo ko bakhshwane par laga diya
May Allah give us hidayat to read and understand the Quran

[attarwala_salim]

an allah in the quran call out to us as MUSLIMS or MOMINS
never came across an other words as u have mentioned

[attarwala_salim]

THE TRUTH QURAN
Amal ki kitab hai, dau ki kitab bana diya
Samajhne ki kitab hai, Padhne ki kitab bana diya
Zindoo ka dastoor hai, murdo ka mansoor bana diya
Inqilab ki kitab hai, sirf sawab ki kitab bana diya Tasqeer-e- kaayenat ka dars dene aayi hai, sirf madarso ka missab bana diya.
Murda dillo ko zinda karne ayi hai, murdo ko bakhshwane par laga diya
May Allah give us hidayat to read and understand the Quran

[attarwala_salim]

y r u looking for hadiyat for confirmation when the prophet was only to say what allh told him to say an to do nothing off is own i this i can prove frm the quran itself

do u mean in 63 years of prophet life time he never thought to declare his sucessor?even a nursery kid will not buy this logic.

Show me Hadith which says after me Ali will succeed me

[attarwala_salim]

i am srry u have note been able to understand the quote right, never was the prophet permitted to say any thing more then what was conveyed to him frm alah an my question was, was the prophet permitted to choose his wali my answer is a flat NO.

[attarwala_salim]

stranger u know why moosa asked allah to allow his brother to acompany him to the pharos cuz he could not talk clean he had problem off stammering

Show me Hadith which says after me Ali will succeed me

See (if you can ) from your own source -

[Sunni Reference : Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5915: ]

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camel. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'Ali said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. There upon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

[Sunni Reference : Sunan Thirmidi, Volume 6, Chapter 31, Hadith No. 3788:]

Zaid bin Arqam r.a., narrated that the messenger of Allah s.a.a.w. said: "Indeed, I am leaving among you, that which if you hold fast to them, you shall not be misguided after me. One of then is greater than the other: (First is) The book of Allah is a rope extended from the sky to the earth, and (the second is) my family, the people of my house (ahlul bait), and they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd, so look at how you deal with them after me." (Sahih).


Okay now lets look at The Quran and find out how Aaron was to Moses
-------------------------------------------------------------------

1) (Moses said: "O' Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is)
my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...," (Allah) said: "We granted your
requests, O' Moses." (Quran 20:29-36).

2) "Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as
his vizier." (Quran 25:35).

3) "... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my
comunity." (Quran 7:142).

you can see the similarity!! Allah (swt) really has made it clear to us! Look at this one now:

(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going
wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused
a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my
word!'" (Quran 20:92-94)

[ghulam muhammed]

BAHAI -- Death and Burial

Death:

Bahais regard life in the present world as Qiyamat (The Hereafter). Thus in a single stroke they abrogate the concepts of life after death, resurrection, accounting for one’s deeds, paradise, hell etc. It is therefore surprising to see in Bahai books the laws regarding death and after it. In any case, as it is mentioned, we shall discuss it.

The Bahai shroud:

Baha says in Aqdas, “the deceased should be enfolded in five pieces of silk or cotton”. And pray tell us what are the dimensions of these five pieces? Is it one for the head, another for the waist or what? No answer!

It is prohibited to take the dead to a distance of over one hour travelling. Baha says in Aqdas, “It is forbidden for you to transport the body of the deceased a greater distance than one hour journey from the city”.

How come then Bab’s body was taken from Tabriz in Iran to Haifa in Israel. Did they transport the body by Concorde? Moreover Bab was buried in Tabriz in 1266 AH and was shifted to Haifa in 1313 AH (Makatib , volume 1, page 292)

Besides in this age of international laws and borders, what happens if a person expires outside his native country and the host country refuses to bury him? What is the family of the deceased to do in such a case?

The Bahai burial prayer:

Baha says in ‘Adiya-e-Mahboobi’, “There are six takbeer (Allah-o-Abha) for the prayer for the deceased. Those who intend to recite it, should recite it as it is mentioned before (page 214-215) of the same book. And for those who can’t may Allah forgive them”.

Bab says in Bayan (Persian), “There should be no leader for the prayer of the dead. The people should congregate but each should recite his own prayer”.

The Bahai burial:

A Bahai from Ishqabad inquired Abdul Baha about the direction in which the dead should be buried. Abdul Baha’s reply which is recorded in Makatib, volume 3, page 287 runs as follows, “Regarding your question as to how the Bahai dead should be buried, my reply is that for the moment they should be buried as earlier (i.e., before they became Bahais). This is better because for the moment we should not adopt the way that makes a clear distinction between us (Bahais) and others (non-Bahais). Such an attitude hinders the propagation of the Faith. However when the atmosphere becomes conducive for the propagation and implementation of the Bahai laws, then the people of Russian Turkistan (from where the inquirer was) should turn their face from the East to the West, slightly Northwards and the dead should be buried in such a manner that their heads are towards the Qibla (Acca), and their feet towards the North.

[ghulam muhammed]

BAHAI -- Fasting, Haj, Zakaat

The Bahai fast:

The Bahai year comprises of 19 months with each month having a duration of 19 days. Of these, in one of the months, the Bahais are required to observe fasts. Baha says in Kitab-e-Mobeen, page 74, “We have enjoined upon you fasting of 19 days in spring”.

During the fast, the Bahais are prohibited from eating and drinking only. All other things including sex are permitted for them. Baha says, “Restrain yourselves from eating and drinking from dawn to dusk”.

Travellers, sick people, pregnant women and ladies during their menstrual periods are not required to fast or to perform the lapsed fast at a later date. Baha says in Aqdas, “The traveller, the ailing, those with child or giving suckle are not bound by the Fast. God exempts them as a token of His grace”.

“God has exempted women who are in their courses from the obligatory prayers and fasting”.

The Bahai Hajj:

Women are exempted from pilgrimage. Baha says in Aqdas, “The Lord has ordained that those who are able shall make the pilgrimage to the Sacred House and from this he has exempted women”.

Bahais have been ordered to perform a pilgrimage of three places. A Bahai preacher, Mirza Haider Ali Isfahani writes in his book, ‘Behjatus Sudoor’, page 258, “The pilgrims circumambulate Baha’s tomb at Acca and kiss it. This is one land of Bahai pilgrimage”.

It is written in ‘Al-kawakebadud durriya fee Me’asaril Bahaiyyah’, “Among the houses of which Baha has ordered circumbulation, are the house of Nuqta-e-Ala’ (Bab) in Shiraz and his own house in Baghdad”.

Regarding Baghdad, Abdul Baha says in ‘Makatib’, volume 3, page 327 in his letters to the guardians of the house of Baha in 1918, “O my Lord! These are your slaves who are the guardians of your sacred house in the blessed city of Baghdad”

The Bahais have also fabricated traditions without any authentic reference from the Holy Prophet of Islam (PBUH) regarding the city of Acca. For example, Ibne Mas’ood narrates from the Holy Prophet (PBUH), “Of all the shores, the shore of Asqalan is the best and Acca is even superior to Asqalan. The superiority of Acca over Acca and all other shores is like my superiority over all prophets. Remember those who desire to visit it and enter it, Allah will forgive his past and future sins. One who stays there for one night, Allah will account him as a patient person and as a person performing prayers till the Day of Judgement”.

The Bahai Zakat (poor-due):

Baha has brought the same laws in Aqdas regarding Zakat as Bab. He writes, “Should anyone acquire 100 mithqaals of gold, 19 mithqaals thereof are God’s and to be rendered unto him (Baha), the fashioner of heaven and the earth”.

But at another place in Aqdas, Baha writes, “It has been enjoined upon you to purify your means of sustenance and other such things through payment of Zakat. Soon we shall explain to you the measurement of its assessment”.

But this apparently was never to be. O Baha! Thy shariat is incomplete.

[ghulam muhammed]

Doubt: Will there be a New Revelation after Islam?

The Bahais bring forth a sermon from Mola Ali called Khutbih-i-Tutunjiyyih (Sermon of the Gulf) as a proof for the appearance of a new revelation after Islam.

The following statement from the sermon is of particular interest to the Bahais: "Anticipate ye the Revelation of Him Who conversed with Moses from the Burning Bush on Sinai."

This sermon has been extensively quoted in Bahai writings - The Bab and Bahaullah have made references to it; the heads of the Shaykhi school of thought - Shaykh Ahmed Ahsai and Sayyed Kazim Rashti and even leading Bahai authors like Abul Fadl Golpaygani have made use of this sermon to establish the coming of a new revelation.

This sermon is available at only one location - the book of Hafez Rajab Al Bursi. As such, not by prejudice, but going by the principles of establishing the veracity of a tradition, this sermon is disqualified as it is reported by one person only. Not just that, it also finds no place in the Quran or the Sunnah of the Prophet. The Holy Prophet (saw) clearly said that when you evaluate a tradition compare it with the Quran and popular Sunnah, if it is in harmony with it, then accept it or reject it.

All the parties, whether it be Bab or Bahaullah, used the sermon to further their own interests of establishing a new revelation. No Shiite author or narrator of traditions ever reported this sermon.

The credibility of the author, Hafez Rajab Al Barsi, is questionable. The author was prone to exaggeration like the leaders of the Shaykhi school of thought. Noted Shiite scholars denounced the author who reported this sermon.

If the Bahais wish to take traditions from Mola Ali (as), then why are they acknowledging only this sermon. They should read the other sermons of Mola Ali (as) wherein

•He endorses the finality of Prophethood and Messengership of the Holy Prophet
(against the principles of the Bahai Faith)

•He warns us of a physical resurrection
(against the principles of the Bahai Faith)

•He informs us of the coming of the Mahdi called Mohammed Ibnil Hasan
(against the principles of the Bahai Faith)

•He speaks about Islam being the best and the final revelation from Allah
(against the principles of the Bahai Faith)

As one can clearly see, everything which Mola Ali (as) prophecised in all his other traditions found freely in Shiite and Sunni books of traditions; all the explanation of the verses of the Quran found in books of traditions is contrary to the basic tenets of the Bahai Faith. Yet ignoring all this, the Bahais talk about one sermon which is reported by an author whose credibility is in doubt.

This approach is reminiscent of the Bahai's "selective" view towards traditions. Either they label all traditions as false and forgeries. Or they choose traditions which are doubtful and claim them as proofs for the Bahai Faith. Given this habit of the Bahais, one needs to be careful while dealing with them in this aspect.

[anajmi]

Do we have any bahai on this board? Or any supporters of bahai beliefs?

[ghulam muhammed]

Bahai Faith in Israel

The Baha’i administration claims there is no resident Baha’i population in Israel. The 650-700 Baha’is who can be found here at any given time are all volunteers who have come from some 85 countries to do service for periods ranging from a few months to a few years. The Baha’is who live here as tourists or temporary residents do not engage in any form of missionary activity. Some people erroneously believe that this is in accordance with the country’s anti-missionary laws, but in fact it is a self-imposed Baha’i prohibition against seeking or accepting new believers into the Baha’i faith in the Holy Land that dates back to the time when the country was still under Ottoman rule.

No one knows why. It is one of several inexplicable Baha’i regulations

It is a well known fact that according to a letter of Universal House of Justice1 the Baha’i s are not suppose to teach and convert the Jew population in Israel. Infact if a Jew outside Israel wants to accept Baha’i Faith and settle in Israel, then his declaration card is not to be accepted.

But The world Christian encyclopedia (WCE) 2 has something else to offer.

In the year 1990, the number of Baha’is residing in Israel were 9500.

The source of the information was Barrett, David B., World Christian Encyclopedia (2001), Data transcribed by Simeon Kohlman Rabbani

In the year 2000, the Baha’i population in Israel was 13734 which constituted 0.22% of the total population of Israel, again the source of this information was David B., World Christian Encyclopedia (2001),

Data transcribed by Simeon Kohlman Rabbani

Their hypocrisy has been exposed by WCE; the other facts which are inexpiable are following facts:

■For years the Haifan Baha’i leadership have been telling visiting pilgrims that they envisioned a day when the Baha’i establishment would become the government of Israel and that the Israeli population would convert en masse to Baha’i Faith.
■A very senior Baha’i official Mr. Ali Akbar Forutan said that a day will come when the Universal House of Justice will rule over the Israel.
■The present Persian counselors say in private that, we have to launch Intensive program of growth in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Most of the Persian counselors have two passports one Israeli and other Persian.
■As far as I am concerned, the unchecked presence of Haifan Baha’is in Israel is as big and long-term existential threat to Israel itself.

When you have an organization openly fantasizing about becoming the governing authority over all of Israel-Palestine and giving false information about the presence of Baha’is in Israel then it is certain that it is more a threat to the State of Israel then blessing…

(1) For your information, the people in Israel have access to factual information about the Faith, its history and general principles. Books concerning the Faith are available in libraries throughout Israel, and Israelis are welcome to visit the Shrines and the surrounding gardens.

However, in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’ís do not teach the Faith in Israel. Likewise, the Faith is not taught to Israelis abroad if they intend to return to Israel. When Israelis ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest.

(2) World Christian Database (WCD) – Updated and maintained by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity, the World Christian Database is based on information provided by the World Christian Encyclopedia and World Christian Trends. Both of these books serve as standards for international religious statistics, and provide comprehensive estimates of religious affiliation around the world.

Until the late 1990s the UHJ was telling its visiting pilgrims that one day all the residents of Israel would become Bahais and that the UHJ would emerge as the government of Israel. This was stated point blank to a group of Bahai pilgrims in 1982 as well as 1986. Don’t know whether they are saying these things anymore as brazenly as they once did, but if it is still the case, one could make the argument that the UHJ Haifan organization is ultimately a national security threat to the state of Israel itself!

[Aliasgar19]

Salaams,

I haven't read all the posts here. Was Just attracted to this forum when I googled for Dawoodi Bohras and Baha'i faith. Let the Baha'is believe in anything what does it matter to our faith. Haifan Baha'ism is a cult and not a religion. Here are some facts regarding them :
http://bahaiawareness.com
http://bahaicultfaq.blogspot.com
http://bahaism.blogspot.com

[ghulam muhammed]

I haven't read all the posts here. Was Just attracted to this forum when I googled for Dawoodi Bohras and Baha'i faith. Let the Baha'is believe in anything what does it matter to our faith. Haifan Baha'ism is a cult and not a religion.

Bro Aliasgar19,

There are scores of religious faiths accross the globe and naturally people are not keen to know much about them but this thread was started by someone who mentioned that even bahais believe in Mola Ali (.a.s), hence it tends to identify themselves with Islam. Moreover this a DB forum and the fact is that many DB bohras have left bohraism and converted to bahaism which should be a matter of concern for the Dai.

[Aliasgar19]

Dear Ghulam Mohammed,

Assalam Alaikum

Thank you for the reply. I totally agree with you.

[Ala maqaam]

reason behind opening this thread was not to cross check if shia belief is true or false,but it was to prove that people who are even out of fold of islaam agrees that Ali is the true sucessor.

if it was been proved by shia point of viewit would be blame that shia are trying to impose there faith,so its been proved by the out sider,that what ever happened in shaqifa was wrong and Ali is the true imam and sucessor of Muhammed(s).

[anajmi]

Ala,

You've hit the nail on the head. Disbelievers believe that these things about Ali and true Imam and true successor and all that. Believers are above these things. The only people shia have managed to convince with their fairy tales are those that are outside the fold of Islam and abdes!!

[Muslim First]

Ala maqaam
if it was been proved by shia point of viewit would be blame that shia are trying to impose there faith,so its been proved by the out sider,that what ever happened in shaqifa was wrong and Ali is the true imam and sucessor of Muhammed(s).

Ala
It has been 1400 years since Shia are trying to prove that Ali was true successor of Rasul (Shiasm became fact after about 200 years)
these are facts
There is no clear cut Aya in Qur'an or clear Hadith appointing Ali as his successor, If there is one please post it. Take Qur'an challange i have asked you to take it. If not you are a coward.

[attarwala_salim]

Ala maqaam
if it was been proved by shia point of viewit would be blame that shia are trying to impose there faith,so its been proved by the out sider,that what ever happened in shaqifa was wrong and Ali is the true imam and sucessor of Muhammed(s).

Ala
It has been 1400 years since Shia are trying to prove that Ali was true successor of Rasul (Shiasm became fact after about 200 years)
these are facts
There is no clear cut Aya in Qur'an or clear Hadith appointing Ali as his successor, If there is one please post it. Take Qur'an challange i have asked you to take it. If not you are a coward.

yes
u r r ight let them prove by the quran,,,,,,,, ok even if ali was the next what now he is dead an gone what now we have the quran an we have to follow the rule in the quran that it all things will perish but the quran an it teaching NEVER

[Ala maqaam]

@Attarwala...

those who think Ahlul bayt is dead and their values are dead.....make sure of them that there hearts are already dead.