Miyabhai ki juti, miyabhai ke sir pe

[Doctor]

(1)
Dawoodi Bohras believes Prophet Mohammed (a) is not dead. Where else our Islamic siblings in Sunni & Wahabi sects believes he is dead so it is illogical to call a dead person for help (by saying: “Ya Rasoolallah Madad”).

Proof Prophet Mohammed (a) is not dead: all sects of Islam are in unison over ‘Kalma-a-shahadat’: Ash’hado an la ilaha illallah…. Ash’hado anna Mohammad’an Rasoolallah – meaning: I stand witness that Mohammed is Rasool of Allah (In Hindi: me gavahi deta hoon ki Mohammed Allah ke Rasool hai).

If Prophet was dead per Sunni & Wahabi, then they should have used statement: Mohammed was Rasool of Allah but they say Mohammed is Rasool of Allah. And per them till one don’t recite this ‘kalma’ one is not Muslim. Hence proved, the ‘kalma-a-shahdat’ of Sunni & Wahabi stands witness that Prophet Mohammed (a) is not dead.

Quran - Aal-e-Imran – 169: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation).

(2)
“Bismillah hir rahman nir rahim” is the first aayat/stanza of Sura: Alhamdo… and word “Aameen” is not present in entire Quran but Sunni brothers will not recite the first aayat of Sura” Alhamdo and will loudly shout “aameen” at the end of above Sura in their salat.

Dawoodi Bohras begins with beginning, they will first recite the Bismillah hi Rahman nir Raheem and will not say word “aameen” in their salat.

Sunni & Wahabi amputated the main body part of Quran and brought in the word that was not part of Quran. They amputated Mola Ali (a) who is the main body part of Islam and brought in X, Y and Z who do not belong to Islam. Idiom for them: Placing turban on feet and shoes over their head.

(3)
Number of fasting days in the Ramadan is the simplest and unambiguous litmus-test that filters ‘fiqa-a-najaat’ = Dawoodi Bohras from other sects (as per Prophet Mohammed (a) only one sect is fiqa-a-najaat and rest all sects in Islam will be hell dwellers).

Quran 2:184 - Fast for a fixed number of days

Only Dawoodi Bohras have fixed number of days for Ramadan, and rest all sects of Islam have variable number days for Ramadan.

[anajmi]

Dawoodi Bohras believes Prophet Mohammed (a) is not dead.

That is because Dawoodi Bohras are mushriks. Only Allah can live forever. Allah says in the Quran

029.057
YUSUFALI: Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back.
PICKTHAL: Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned.
SHAKIR: Every soul must taste of death, then to Us you shall be brought back.

The prophet (saw) tasted this death and so did all the people who died in the path of Allah.

The ayahs that the Doctor refers to are taken out of context and in a sense in which they are not meant to be taken. When Allah says they are not dead, doesn't mean that you can talk to them and invite them to your houses. They are dead, but are alive in a different sense. A sense that is not easy to understand and hence used by people to deceive other people.

[anajmi]

Quran 2:184 - Fast for a fixed number of days

002.184
YUSUFALI: (Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.
PICKTHAL: (Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him: and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know -
SHAKIR: For a certain number of days; but whoever among you is sick or on a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; and those who are not able to do it may effect a redemption by feeding a poor man; so whoever does good spontaneously it is better for him; and that you fast is better for you if you know.

Doctor has chosen a translation that suits his belief. I believe the fixed/certain simply refers to the days in the month of Ramadan. It has nothing to do with 29 or 30. There is no evidence that Ramadan during the time of the prophet (saw) was always 30 days. If this is there in any bohra books written by their Dai or Imam, then please produce that over here. Again, this question has been asked of Doctor many times before, but it looks like he couldn't find it. Please produce the number 30 from your writings.

Even the Daimul Islam does not mention a 30 day Ramadan. Daimul Islam infact talks about Hazrat Ali (I think) of observing the moon to begin the month of Ramadan. No mention of fasting for exactly 30 days.

[Muslim First]

(2)
“Bismillah hir rahman nir rahim” is the first aayat/stanza of Sura: Alhamdo… and word “Aameen” is not present in entire Quran but Sunni brothers will not recite the first aayat of Sura” Alhamdo and will loudly shout “aameen” at the end of above Sura in their salat.
Dawoodi Bohras begins with beginning, they will first recite the Bismillah hi Rahman nir Raheem and will not say word “aameen” in their salat.

Brother Doctor
AS & Ramadan Kareem
You are a extreme fitnati and you do not know anything about sunni or wahabi madhab.
As far as reciting Bismillah sunni do it both ways depending on madhab they follow.
I would hope you will take some time in this Mubarak month to understand Islam as practiced by majority of Muslims.

Here are couple of sources,

Please read this book
Prophet’s prayer described
http://abdurrahman.org/salah/prophetsPrayerAlbaani/

Click on item 11

Here is what you read

Recitation

Next, he (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would seek refuge with Allaah the Exalted, saying:

I seek refuge with Allaah from the Evil One, the Rejected, from his madness, his arrogance, and his poetry. Sometimes he would add to this, saying:

I seek refuge with Allaah, the all-Hearing, the all-Knowing, from the Evil One ..
Then he would recite,

In the Name of Allaah, the Most Merciful, the Bestower of Mercy, but not loudly.

See it says prophet used to recite bismillah and all Sunnis do recite it loudly or silently before second verse of Surah fateha.

Also watch and listen to this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXube82KSGs
start paying attention at minute 11
Listen, what Sheikh says about Bismillah.

Now about Aameen;

The aameen, and the Imaam's saying it Loudly

When he (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) finished reciting al- Faatihah, he would say:

("aameen") loudly, prolonging his voice.149
He also used to order the congregation to say aameen: When the imaam says,

"Not of those who receive (Your) anger, nor of those who go astray", then say "aameen" [for the angels say "aameen" and the imaam says aameen"] (in another narration: when the imaam says "aameen" say "aameen"), so he whose aameen coincides with the aameen of the angels (in another narration: when one of you says "aameen" in prayer and the angels in the sky say "aameen", and they coincide), his past sins are forgiven.150 In another hadeeth: ... then say aameen; Allaah will answer you.151
He also used to say: The Jews do not envy you over anything as much as they envy you over the salutation and aameen [behind the imaam].152

Hanafis in India say Aameen silently.


Now please brother find a Miyabhai and ask him to hit you with his juti. Make sure he hits you on your head.I guarantee you it will not hurt you since it is empty that is no gray matter.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

Heading of this discussion should be

Miyabhai ki juti, MUBARAK ke sir pe

[Doctor]

Dawoodi Bohras believes Prophet Mohammed (a) is not dead.

That is because Dawoodi Bohras are mushriks. Only Allah can live forever. Allah says in the Quran

029.057
YUSUFALI: Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back.
PICKTHAL: Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned.
SHAKIR: Every soul must taste of death, then to Us you shall be brought back.

The prophet (saw) tasted this death and so did all the people who died in the path of Allah.

The ayahs that the Doctor refers to are taken out of context and in a sense in which they are not meant to be taken. When Allah says they are not dead, doesn't mean that you can talk to them and invite them to your houses. They are dead, but are alive in a different sense. A sense that is not easy to understand and hence used by people to deceive other people.

Brother Anajmi,

In reciting kalma-a-shahadat, what do you say: "Mohammed is Rasool of Allah" or "Mohammed was Rasool of Allah"?

If you say "Mohammed is Rasool of Allah": then you are standing witness that Moahammed is not dead.

Example)
If I say, "Abraham Lincoln is the President of USA". You will say, my statement is incorrect, the correct statement is: "Abraham Lincoln was the President of USA".

If I say, "Barack Obama was the President of USA". You will say, my statement is incorrect, the correct statement is: "Barack Obama is the President of USA."

"Is" is used for person who is present and "was" is used otherwise.

Kalma-a-shahadat is the main-switch to on/off being Muslim/non-Muslim. Sunni/Wahabi (and all sects indeed) are in unison in their kalma-a-shahadat = Mohammed is Rasool of Allah. Hence, all sects in their key statement stands witness that Mohammed is not dead. So, in light of above those who consider Mohammed to be dead are all standing against their kalma-a-shahadat.

[anajmi]

Doctor,

Are you contradicting Allah and his Quran? Is and Was has nothing to do with dead or alive. You do not say Bush "is" the president. You say Bush "was" the president. Bush is not dead he is still alive. Your logic is faulty. You might want to take some courses in the English Language along with the Quran.

029.057
YUSUFALI: Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back.
PICKTHAL: Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned.
SHAKIR: Every soul must taste of death, then to Us you shall be brought back.

[Doctor]

Brother Anajmi,

"Is" is used only when following condition is satisfied = (1) For the present holder of the post + (2) applicable only for living person and not dead.

"Barack Obama is the President of USA" means: Obama is the present (right now) holder of the post of President and compulsorily he is alive person and not dead person.

Bush was the President = he is not the present holder of post of President though he is alive.
Clinton was the President = he is not the present holder of post of President though he is alive.
For Bush and Clinton (in reference to the holder of post of President) only "was" can be used and not "is" though they are alive and were ex-president. "Is" is only used for Obama who is the present holder of the post and is definitely alive and not dead. Likewise, when one say kalma-a-shahadat = Mohammed (a) is the Rasool of Allah, it means: Mohammed (a) is the present holder of the post of Rasool and is alive and not dead person.

Hence, all sects kalma-a-shahadat (same with all Islam sects) is the simplest and the basic proof that Mohammed (a) is alive and not dead. Those sects whose opinion are otherwise are acting against their own kalma-a-shahadat. Kalma can never wrong (as all sects have same kalma) but opinions often are!

So, Bhai Anajmi, Bhai Muslim First,

Sunni & Wahabi (both above person and faith names taken with full respect and in humble tone of voice) Kalma-a-shahadat says Mohammed is the present holder of the post of Rasool (only live person can be present holder of any post) but they preach Mohammed (a) is dead! This dichotomy makes structural defect in their faith at core level.

[Muslim First]

Sunni & Wahabi (both above person and faith names taken with full respect and in humble tone of voice)

Doctor Saheb
Who arebyou kidding?
Just look at title you chose for this discussion. Its Ramadan, we are suppose to tell truth at least in this MUBARAK month.

As far as your post about is and was is nothing but crap, not woth westing my time.

[anajmi]

Brother Doctor,

Since you do not agree with the ayah of the Quran that I have quoted above, you are a non-muslim.

[Doctor]

Dear Muslim First sahib,

It seems you have adopted dichotomy as way of life like your sect. You are replying my post and commenting my post are not worth to reply!

FYI: I have borrowed the title from Hindi Idiom: "miya ki juti, miya ka sir". To add respect I have added "bhai".

Further to first sentence of this post, I will take your reply as an acknowledgement of your inability to counter the truth.

[anajmi]

Ghenghis Khan is the biggest tyrant of all time. According to Doctor Saab's pristine logic, Ghenghis Khan is alive.

Abraham Lincoln is the greatest president of the United States. According to Doctor Saab's pristine logic, Abraham Lincoln is alive.

[Doctor]

Brother Doctor,

Since you do not agree with the ayah of the Quran that I have quoted above, you are a non-muslim.

Anajmi wrote:
29.057
YUSUFALI: Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back.

Mubarak wrote:
Quran - Aal-e-Imran – 169: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation).

Per Dawoodi Bohras, death is obvious and must for all including all Prophets/Imams/Dai that also include Prophet Mohammed (a) in line with the Quran 29:57. Having said that, read Aal-e-Imran -169 mentioned above. Prophet Mohammed (a) has passed away at 63 years of age, but per Aal-e-Imran:169 he is still alive though you cannot understand, not only that Allah says that they get their sustenance from Allah! The point they are not dead is mentioned in many other verses of Quran like: (1) Al Baqarah: 154, (2) Part 25, Ruku 10, etc

So, DB are in line with all four verses mentioned above. Unfortunately Wahabi’s siblings are not obeying Allah command in Aal-e-Imran 169, Al Baqrah 154, etc

[Doctor]

Ghenghis Khan is the biggest tyrant of all time. According to Doctor Saab's pristine logic, Ghenghis Khan is alive.

Abraham Lincoln is the greatest president of the United States. According to Doctor Saab's pristine logic, Abraham Lincoln is alive.

The bone-of-contention is about 'Post' and not subjective/debatable emotions tagging.

Rasool is the post, President is the post. But "biggest tyrant of all time" is not any post. "The greatest president of the USA" is not any post.

"Is" that we discussed is in reference to the holder/bearer of post. What you wrote above are not any post in Islam or in this world.

[student]

Most miya bhai carries there juti on there head but they wont agree on it

[anajmi]

all sects kalma-a-shahadat (same with all Islam sects) is the simplest and the basic proof that Mohammed (a) is alive and not dead.

Per Dawoodi Bohras, death is obvious and must for all including all Prophets/Imams/Dai that also include Prophet Mohammed (a) in line with the Quran 29:57.

See how the Doctor is contradicting himself? First he says that there is proof that the is alive and not dead and then he says that death is obvious for all Prophets. Such is the logic of these pristine Dawoodi Bohras!!!

[porus]

all sects kalma-a-shahadat (same with all Islam sects) is the simplest and the basic proof that Mohammed (a) is alive and not dead.

Per Dawoodi Bohras, death is obvious and must for all including all Prophets/Imams/Dai that also include Prophet Mohammed (a) in line with the Quran 29:57.

See how the Doctor is contradicting himself? First he says that there is proof that the is alive and not dead and then he says that death is obvious for all Prophets. Such is the logic of these pristine Dawoodi Bohras!!!

One thing must be said in Doctor's favor and that is that his argument follows impeccable logic. It is not Doctor alone that appears to contradict himself but the Quran itself appears to contradict itself. I would argue that contradiction is more apparent than real within Quran's own terms.

Amongst all Muslims there is a tacit belief that Muhammad is 'alive' and that he listens to pleas from the faithful. This is evident in hundreds of naats and qawwalis within both the Sunni and Shia Islam. Maybe not so much amongst Wahhabis. For example, the following idea in many variations appears in popular duas, naats, nazams, qawwalis etc.:

"Ya Muhammad, hum jholi phelaye huwe tere dar pe sawaal leke aaye hain,
Ya Nabi, aapke pyare nawwase (Husain) ke sadqe se, hamari jholi khaali wapas mat bhejiyega"

I believe that Quran's apparent contradiction is easily resolved. Allah says that on the Day of Judgement, a sound of trumpet will summon all from their graves to face Allah's judgment. However, he also describes paradise in graphic detail in which the faithful will be rewarded with thrones laid up in gardens in which they will recline with beautiful spouses (Hur-e-ayn) and with diamond encrusted goblets which will be continually filled with nectar by handsome youths and so on.

However, some have been or are privileged to enter paradise before the Day of Judgment and are already enjoying the fruits of Allah's rizq in heaven. These are those who died or were killed in the way of Allah (fi sabilillah).

They are dead but 'alive in paradise' right now. They do not have to wait for the trumpet to sound.

So, it is clear that some have already jumped the line and others will follow in less privileged way. All will be arraigned in a heavenly caste system where the caste will be determined by the generation in which they were born as well as by their deeds. Quran says the first generation of Muslims, the Prophet's generation, will be in the top caste. Others will be placed in lower generational ranks, both in heaven and hell.

You will not escape Allah's polarity even in afterlife!

[Muslim First]

Student
Most miya bhai carries there juti on there head but they wont agree on it

That is only thing you can contribute?
You must be student of "Baal Shala"

Wasalaam
Have a nice day

[Muslim First]

Quran - Aal-e-Imran – 169: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation).

For information

Prophet SAW passed away due to ilness. He was not slain.

[porus]

Quran - Aal-e-Imran – 169: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation).

For information

Prophet SAW passed away due to ilness. He was not slain.

Allah, in Surat aali-Imran, promises forgiveness and mercy for those who are slain or die fi sabilillah. You can interpret that to mean that they have already been judged and will enter paradise immediately. Prophet's whole life and death was fi sabilillah.

3:157-158
And if indeed you are slain or die in God's cause, then surely forgiveness from God and His grace are better than all that one could amass [in this world]; for, indeed, if you die or are slain, it will surely be unto God that you shall be gathered.

[Muhammad Asad Translation]

[anajmi]

I do not base my religion on qawwalis and naats. You shouldn't either. Nasheeds and Naats are supposed to be based on religion. But people take liberties with these.

The reason I pointed out Doctor's posts as contradictions is because I explained this to him in my very first response which he chose to completely ignore and continue with his "impeccable logic". Read my very first post on this thread again. I said this

When Allah says they are not dead, doesn't mean that you can talk to them and invite them to your houses. They are dead, but are alive in a different sense. A sense that is not easy to understand and hence used by people to deceive other people.

[porus]

I do not base my religion on qawwalis and naats. You shouldn't either. Nasheeds and Naats are supposed to be based on religion. But people take liberties with these.

It is the beliefs that are expressed in qawwalis etc. Beliefs came first and then the compositions. What is true for you is also true for most. Quran is the source of their religious beliefs, or. at least, that is what they claim.

The point is that there is a widespread belief that Muhammad listens to pleas from his followers. Quran apparently encourages this belief in the ayats I have pointed out.

Both views - that Prophet is alive or that he is dead - can be accommodated within Quran in my view. Wahhabis, of course, would not agree. For them, Muhammad is dead, finished, kaput! And he will be called with the sound of trumpet along with others. No two ways for them.

And I agree with Doctor Saheb. Wahhabi recitation of the kalima is wrong. They ought to say "Muhammad was Messenger of God" In Arabic, it is "kana Muhammad Rasulullah". It is only a small change of inserting a past marker.

Unfortunately for Wahhabis, Quran keeps insisting that "Muhammad is Messenger of God".

[anajmi]

We will let the wahhabis worry about what they believe.

I believe the prophet (saw), and I am talking about the actual physical body that was born in the year of the fil, the body that used to meditate in Gar-e-Hira, the body that taught and preached the Quran to the Sahaba, the body that migrated from Mecca to Median, is dead. He died in the path of Allah and as per some traditions he died as a shaheed because of a poison that was given to him by a jewish woman.

He is alive in a sense that we cannot understand and he gets sustenance from Allah. He is dependent on Allah for his sustenance.

The point is that there is a widespread belief that Muhammad listens to pleas from his followers. Quran apparently encourages this belief in the ayats I have pointed out.

I am sorry but I missed those ayats. Can you point them out again where the Quran is encouraging the believers to plead to prophet Muhammad (saw)? Also, are these pleas for the body that died or for the entity that is alive and getting sustenance from Allah?

[porus]

I am sorry but I missed those ayats. Can you point them out again where the Quran is encouraging the believers to plead to prophet Muhammad (saw)? Also, are these pleas for the body that died or for the entity that is alive and getting sustenance from Allah?

No, Quran is not encouraging that. It encourages the belief that Muhammad is 'alive' through ayats 3:169 and 3:157-8. Some of the things that people do with that belief is that they write poetry pleading for Prophet to help them.

There is a beautiful song sung by Lata from a very old Hindi/Urdu movie called Anarkali. Some of its words are:

"bekas pe karam kijiye, sarkar-e-Madina".

These words are addressed directly to Prophet.

If those who are slain in Allah's way are enjoying Allah's heaven right now, I can argue that Muhammad's contribution is even greater than that of martyrs and that he is foremost among those who are benefiting from God's rizq right now.

[anajmi]

Thank you for your response.

If those who are slain in Allah's way are enjoying Allah's heaven right now, I can argue that Muhammad's contribution is even greater than that of martyrs and that he is foremost among those who are benefiting from God's rizq right now.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Muslim First]

No, Quran is not encouraging that. It encourages the belief that Muhammad is 'alive' through ayats 3:169 and 3:157-8. Some of the things that people do with that belief is that they write poetry pleading for Prophet to help them.
There is a beautiful song sung by Lata from a very old Hindi/Urdu movie called Anarkali. Some of its words are:
"bekas pe karam kijiye, sarkar-e-Madina".
These words are addressed directly to Prophet.

Br porus and Doctor
time to revisit
THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... SWT#p52576

[ghulam muhammed]

Miyabhai ki juti, MUBARAK ke sir pe

It should be MUBARAK KI JUTI, DOCTOR KE SIR PE although it is good that the fitna has been allowed to mellow down, thanks to Bro.porus, anajmi and MF.

[danishwar]

(1)
. .. is not dead.

Quran - Aal-e-Imran – 169: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord (Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation).

....

Before making this ayah an argument,My dear Doctor saheb,plz make it clear the meaning of :
''Think not of those''
the above command is given as an order,just to finish all the nonesense man can think of .

Quran talks about many things that are UNSEEN e.g.heaven,hell,jinns,shaitan,rooh,barzakh,angels etcc.
we have been given either 'not at all' or a' little' knowledge about such things.
It is advised to muslims in the very beginning of the quran itself to have belief in unseen.
It is common sense that talking about things we dont have knowledge will lead to nowhere or nonesense.

[danishwar]

B Mohammed is the present holder of the post of Rasool (only live person can be present holder of any post) but they preach Mohammed (a) is dead! This dichotomy makes structural defect in their faith at core level.

kalma shahadat says about' prophethood 'of Muhammad[saw] not about his life.His prophethood is till qiyamah,till the last man alive on this earth.
thanks

[feelgud]

[quelf but the Quran itself appears to contradict itself. I would argue that contradiction is more apparent than real within Quran's own terms.
------------------------
You will not escape Allah's polarity even in afterlife!

No,its not contradiction porus, even quran says,how everything is made for test;
6:8 (Asad) They are saying, too, "Why has not an angel (visibly] been sent down unto him?" But had we sent down an angel, all would indeed have been decided, [6] and they would have been allowed no further respite [for repentance.
Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:9 (Asad) And (even] if We had appointed an angel as Our message-bearer, [7] We would certainly have made him [appear as] a man - and thus We would only have confused them in the same way as they are now confusing themselves. [8]