Disgusting Shia/Sunni debate

[Muslim First]

GM
It is extremely sad that these divisive doctrines have been deeply inculcated by their leaders 24x7 with great success and the shias/bohras are falling prey to it very easily.

Well infection is spreaing, Even erudite perspn like porus thinks "“Sunnis in the main follow practices of the Khilafat of Abu Bakr/Umar, Uthman/Muawiyah/Yazid and Banu Abbas”.

Conviently ignoring Hz Ali

[fearAllah]

“Sunnis in the main follow practices of the Khilafat of Abu Bakr/Umar, Uthman/Muawiyah/Yazid and Banu Abbas”.

Br Porus, AS
Could you point out what innovations introduced by Muawiyah/Yazid are practiced by Sunnis?

To hate the shi'as and lovers of Moulana Ali

[Muslim First]

PORUS
“Sunnis in the main follow practices of the Khilafat of Abu Bakr/Umar, Uthman/Muawiyah/Yazid and Banu Abbas”.
Muslim First
Br Porus, AS
Could you point out what innovations introduced by Muawiyah/Yazid are practiced by Sunnis?

Fear Alah
To hate the shi'as and lovers of Moulana Ali

I believe brother you did not read Br GM's post

by ghulam muhammed on Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:17 pm

The extremists Sunnis, especially wahabis hate the shias as according to them shias are infidels although they forget that it is the sole prerogative of Allah (swt) alone to judge the same. [/color]
The ground reality is that the majority of sunnis dont carry any hatred of shias in their heart One will hardly find any sunni cursing the ahle bayt or even the shia imams for that matter but the shias/bohras leaalthough the same cant be said about shias.
One will hardly find any sunni cursing the ahle bayt or even the shia imams for that matter but the shias/bohras leave no opportunity or occassion to curse the personalities revered by sunnis. It is almost like one of the fundamental beliefs and a pillar of faith in shiasm/bohraism to curse the sahabas. It seems that their faith is incomplete without the curses.
It seems that their hatred of sahabas is MORE then their love of Ahle Bayt or to rephrase it, "their hatred of sahabas is a pre-condition of their love of Ahle Bayt".

It is extremely sad that these divisive doctrines have been deeply inculcated by their leaders 24x7 with great success and the shias/bohras are falling prey to it very easily.

[porus]

The ground reality is that the majority of sunnis dont carry any hatred of shias in their heart....

May be so, but you would not think that if all you did was to read Sunni representatives' posts on this board.

....although the same cant be said about shias.

I doubt if Shias carry any 'hatred' in their hearts. It is only displayed in stylized rituals. Meet ordinary Bohra and you will not detect any of the much vilified 'hatred' in his system. To be charitable, ordinary Bohra is trapped by personal and family history in institutionalized tyranny over their minds. That is one of the reasons for the existence for Reform Movement and this forum.

By the way, would you identify for me the authentic Fatimid or early Tayyibi da'awa documents which incorporates "cursing" as the Bohra creed. Justify your 'shock' when told that Bohra creed is the same as Muslim creed except for emphasis on 'love' for ahlul bayt, which (love for ahlul bayt) can be argued to be as per Allah's recommendation in the Quran.

[porus]

Conviently ignoring Hz Ali

Shia narrative of history is different from the Sunni narrative. It is senseless to counter one with the other because both are partisan, Definitive (true) history of early Islam is lost for ever. Only interpretations remain.

Sunnis vilify Ali for civil wars amongst Muslims and glorify the first three Khalifas and Muawiya for military conquests. Their view of Aisha going to war with Ali is very different from the Shia view. You, sir, do not know much about the Sunni view and, most certainly, you are not going study the Shia view.

Ramadan Kareem and tehniyaat ala layaali faadila.

[Muslim First]

porus
Sunnis vilify Ali for civil wars amongst Muslims and glorify the first three Khalifas and Muawiya for military conquests. Their view of Aisha going to war with Ali is very different from the Shia view. You, sir, do not know much about the Sunni view and, most certainly, you are not going study the Shia view.

Br porus
You are well aware that Average janab Muslim does not give @#$$% about Hz Ali's difficulties during his 6 years of Khilafat. He is remembered as last rightful Khalif and righteous Sahaba and double relative of Prophet SAW. Donnybrook arises in Shia Sunni mudslinging. As far as your contention that I do not know Sunni writings in this relation or shia view is far from truth.

As far as Aisha RA is concerned. Hz Ali treated her magnificently and there is a hadith from her expressing profound regret regarding her action.

What I request from you is an example of innovation in Sunni Islam introduced by Muvayya/Yazid. if not , you should be man enough to walk back your statement Just like br Humsafar .

Wasallam and Ramadan Kareem and tehniyaat ala layaali faadila.

[ghulam muhammed]

I doubt if Shias carry any 'hatred' in their hearts. It is only displayed in stylized rituals. Meet ordinary Bohra and you will not detect any of the much vilified 'hatred' in his system.

I believe that you reside in a western country hence you may not be much aware of the indian bohras mentality. The ground reality is very different then what you percieve. Bohras are more soft and accomodating towards non-muslims then the mainstream muslims. It is more of a result of the 24x7 venom injected by the clergy towards mainstream muslims in guise of the khilafat controversy. Moreover it is also a result of the lack of knowledge in comparative study of religion.

By the way, would you identify for me the authentic Fatimid or early Tayyibi da'awa documents which incorporates "cursing" as the Bohra creed.

No. There seems to be no documentary evidence in the actual bohra literature which justifies cursing, this is a recent innovation which started from the 51st dai and gained momentum in the 52nd dai's era.

[ghulam muhammed]

During the solemn month of mohurrum when cursing becomes an obligatory prayer for the bohras then why dont they curse the "Real Villians Of Karbala" i.e. the shias of kufa who were mainly responsible for the tragic events that unfolded in karbala. Had the shias of kufa not BETRAYED Imam Hussain (a.s.), this tragic event could have been avoided and also the martyrdom of Muslim bin Aqil (a.s.) which took place right in kufa in the presence of these so called believers of ahle bayt. They were almost 18,000 and far outnumbered the army of yazid sent to fight Imam Hussain (a.s.).

If cursing the infidels is so very important and a part of their religious doctrine then why do the bohras/shias dont curse the known infidels i.e. the idol worshippers. It was Mola Ali (a.s.) whom the shias revere and who was instrumental in removing the idols from the Holy Kaaba thereby denouncing idolatory. As the so called "True" followers of Mola Ali (a.s.), why dont they shower lanats on Hindus ? In fact, the dai "honours and felicitates" the extremist hindus like Narendra Modi, Bal Thackerey and L.K.Advani who as per their religious doctrine are not only infidels but the biggest enemies of ummah and responsible for the mass genocide of muslims. Probably "Taqiya" prevents them from doing so.

On pure humanitarian grounds it is totally incorrect to curse and abuse anyone because cursing by ordinary people does not compel Allah to alter His opinion as He knows the best. Moreover we rely on history which is almost 1400 years old and which was most likely tampered by vested interests in their nefarous designs to destabilize the ummah.

[SBM]

Why curse anyone. Are not we suppose to let Allah decide who is to be punished or not, Did not Allah in Quran did curse Abu Lahab but I do not hear anyone (Sunni or Shia) ever cursing Abu Lahab and Hind?

[Muslim First]

Ramdan fasting is taking toll on br porus. He has been blowing hot air from both ends.
He justifies cursing as per Qur'an at the same time critics DBs for ritual cursing.

He has failed to provide any evidence that Main Strem Muslims follow bidah od Muwayya/Yazid and also claims that Abu Hurerah is father of mainstream Islam

ramadan Karim

[porus]

Brother Muslim First,

Please do not force me to be unpleasant to you on this day. Few hours from now we will enter Laylatul Qadr. Laylatul Qadr Mubarak to you.

I invite you to curse Muawiya and Yazid publicly otherwise I will assume that you accept that they were rightful Khalifas of Rasulullah. I will educate you about what it means to accept them as rightful Khalifas, even if you do not count them amongst the Rashidoon.

I do not approve of cursing the Rashidoon Khalifa or Aisha by Bohras or the Shia. I am most certain that in ayat 9:40, Allah has honored Abu Bakr. Similarly, Allah has honored Aisha as Ummul Mumineen in the Quran. Unfortunately, neither Abu Bakr nor Aisha lived up to the great honor that Allah had bestowed upon them.

I will not indulge in debate with you or anajmi over this issue. But I do ask you to show solidarity with Quran and Rasulullah by publicly cursing Muawiya and Yazid.

[anajmi]

Unfortunately, neither Abu Bakr nor Aisha lived up to the great honor that Allah had bestowed upon them.

Allah messed up. Just like he did in the Tsunami and the half a million children who suffered in Iraq. He honored Abu Bakr and Aisha in the Quran which is a part of Lauhim Mahfuz. Big mistake!!! Now he will never be able to correct his mistake as it has been recorded for ever and ever. Allah who can see everything, past, present and future, missed this and instead of choosing a truly great man to be the prophet's companion and a great woman to be his wife, he chose these two!!

But I do ask you to show solidarity with Quran and Rasulullah by publicly cursing Muawiya and Yazid.

I ask you to show solidarity with the Quran and the prophet (saw) by repenting what you have said against the companions of the prophet (saw) and his wife and above all I ask you to seek forgiveness from Allah for doubting the way in which he has chosen to run this world as being incompetent. Because if we cannot trust Allah to honor the right kind of people, how can we trust the shia to honor the right kind of people or curse the wrong kind? I also ask you to seek forgiveness for doubting the Quran on this night of laylatul qadr when the Quran was revealed. What is the point in respecting the night when you don't respect the Quran? Once you do that, I will publicly curse Muawiya and Yazid.

[porus]

anajmi,

Who asked you to butt in tangentially?

I will never ask you to curse Muawiya and Yazid as we all know that you love them so very much.

[anajmi]

porus,

You should read your post again where you have addressed both Muslim First and myself. But that is besides the point. On this great night of Laylatul Qadr I urge you to show solidarity with the Quran and the prophet (saw) by repenting what you have said against the companions of the prophet (saw) and his wife and above all I ask you to seek forgiveness from Allah for doubting the way in which he has chosen to run this world as being incompetent. Because if we cannot trust Allah to honor the right kind of people, how can we trust the shia to honor the right kind of people or curse the wrong kind? I also ask you to seek forgiveness for doubting the Quran on this night of laylatul qadr when the Quran was revealed. What is the point in respecting the night when you don't respect the Quran?

[porus]

Once you do that, I will publicly curse Muawiya and Yazid.

Shia condemn these two unconditionally. You need porus to do your bidding before you do and I consider you a jaahil.

[anajmi]

When it comes to trusting who to honor and who to curse, do you think I should trust Allah or the shia?

And you are ignoring what I am asking you to do on this great night of Laylatul Qadr. I urge you, nay, I plead with you to show solidarity with the Quran and the prophet (saw) by repenting what you have said against the companions of the prophet (saw) and his wife and above all I ask you to seek forgiveness from Allah for doubting the way in which he has chosen to run this world as being incompetent. Because if we cannot trust Allah to honor the right kind of people, how can we trust the shia to honor the right kind of people or curse the wrong kind? I also ask you to seek forgiveness for doubting the Quran on this night of laylatul qadr when the Quran was revealed. What is the point in respecting the night when you don't respect the Quran?

[Zeal]

I am most certain that in ayat 9:40, Allah has honored Abu Bakr. Similarly, Allah has honored Aisha as Ummul Mumineen in the Quran. Unfortunately, neither Abu Bakr nor Aisha lived up to the great honor that Allah had bestowed upon them.

Porus, Are you saying Allah (SWT) made a mistake (naozo-billah) in honoring Abubakr and Aishain Quran , and didnt forseee the future....
This is as if Allah granted porus great intellectuality so that he interprets Islam correctly and porus did not live upto his expectations....

[ozmujaheed]

As you carryon cursing one another how do your curses apply to

Check your history and try to realize who was Hafsa, Um Habiba ...are they in Aishas league ? Whose wife were they and whose daughters. Now when you find the answer imagine how you respect Busaheba who was buried in Uk just imagine what Burhanudin and Mufadal would react if they heard you cursing their mums and wives and in laws.

What about Um Kulthum and Rukaya whose daughter and wife were they, now what about Muhammad Abubakr for who did he give his life and who was his sister and of course his father.

Surely all the main people I am referring to such as Muhamad Saw and Ali As were better predictors of the future than a Diai ? Any abde denies that ? So how would they make such a move if they would have any doubt ? Would you do that to your own daughters ?

Now during judgement day be prepared to explain why you went on this loose tongue tirade before stopping to use any logic or having the Quran to help clarify and if not why waste your life on non beneficial practice .

[porus]

Porus, Are you saying Allah (SWT) made a mistake (naozo-billah) in honoring Abubakr and Aishain Quran , and didnt forseee the future....
This is as if Allah granted porus great intellectuality so that he interprets Islam correctly and porus did not live upto his expectations....

Allah makes mistakes all right! He just is not 'man' enough to admit it. He hides behind His 'Hidden Knowledge'. Remember when Malaa:ikat questioned Him about His wisdom of creating mankind, what did He tell them? He said to angels, "You guys don't know what I know. Do not question Me it is all a secret".

[porus]

Check your history and try to realize who was Hafsa, Um Habiba ...are they in Aishas league ? Whose wife were they and whose daughters. Now when you find the answer imagine how you respect Busaheba who was buried in Uk just imagine what Burhanudin and Mufadal would react if they heard you cursing their mums and wives and in laws.

If one goes by your logic then none of the relatives of Prophet could be considered worthy of sanction. So what about Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal? Even Abu Lahab, Prophet's uncle has been roundly condemned by Allah Himself.

Umm Habiba, Ummul Mumineen, was daughter of Prophet's most bitter enemy, a Quraish Leader, Abu Sufyan. She was thus sister to Muawiya and aunt to Yazid. All theses 3 gentlemen are roundly condemned by the Shia and rightly so, but not Umm Habiba.

Hafsa, Ummul Mumineen, was Umar's daughter and she was not beneath joining Aaisha for playing prank against the Prophet out of jealousy against their co-wife, Umm Salamah. To her credit, Hafsa refused to join Aaisha in her conspiracy against Ali. And Hafsa is honored as the first person to have written down the Quran in its entirety.

No. You must find out who Prophet meant for Muslims to regard most highly in the ayat of 'muwaddatul qurba', The answer is in the Quran. It is ahlul bayt, who are panjatan and no body else. Every one else is subject to criticism, mild or harsh, according to your feelings. However, you will have to wait till Qayamat to find out if you were justified in your judgment.

[Zeal]

This is as if Allah granted porus great intellectuality so that he interprets Islam correctly and porus did not live upto his expectations....

Porus ,
Thanks, you just confirmed the above.
By the way Intellectual + Imaan = could give you another positive direction and help come off the the hidden knowledge path.

[ozmujaheed]

Porus are you on the right path and what gives you the right to belittle any of the Prophet's wives. Are you above the Prophet to question his choice and interfere in his household even if the wives were having domestic disputes ?

On what basis do you make your view ? Who was the witness ? When was the fact written ? How many years after the event ?

You mix up the respect of Ahlul Bayt with disrespecting the rest , why don't you stay out of the cursing ritual .what do you really gain by cursing and abusing unless you have turned it into an ibadat! Surely that is not Islam but your own faith .

Prove it to me if Ali or Husain mentioned any where in a credible journal that the Muslims have to exaggerate their personal domestic rivalry to full blown cursing and blood thirst ? Do not bring the 2nd or 4th generational emotional interpretations and hearsay ? Do you know how long 25 or 100 years is in 600ad where no electronic or photo records existed. How much distortion would have creeped into the history .

[Zeal]

Surely that is not Islam but your own faith .

You can bet this is his own faith!

People on this forum like him for "his own faith"

I have seen him coming out with explanations and tafseer on complex issues , and then he slaps his own face by ridiculing Islam and Quran by his so called logical 'imaanless' crap!

[porus]

Every one else is subject to criticism, mild or harsh, according to your feelings. However, you will have to wait till Qayamat to find out if you were justified in your judgment.

Remember this.

Porus are you on the right path and what gives you the right to belittle any of the Prophet's wives. Are you above the Prophet to question his choice and interfere in his household even if the wives were having domestic disputes ?

I do not belittle Prophet's wives. Let us not make a general statement and consider each historical episode involving his wives on its own merit. Do you have an episode in mind?

On what basis do you make your view ? Who was the witness ? When was the fact written ? How many years after the event ?

My view is based on my reading of history. Again, would you care to discuss an episode. I will give you my sources but first give me yours too. Remember, there is no 'truth' in history. All history is partisan and heavily biased by many factors.

You mix up the respect of Ahlul Bayt with disrespecting the rest , why don't you stay out of the cursing ritual .what do you really gain by cursing and abusing unless you have turned it into an ibadat! Surely that is not Islam but your own faith .

I do nor disrespect anyone in history. My emotions are not tied to historical events. You should know this by now. I do not curse anyone nor do I approve of it, although I was testing if Wahhabis would curse enemies of Ahlul Bayt, Muawiyah and Yazid, in this thread. We got their answer, either by complete silence (MF) or laying unfulfillable conditions before they would condemn them (anajmi). You should search this forum about my view on cursing by Bohras.

Prove it to me if Ali or Husain mentioned any where in a credible journal that the Muslims have to exaggerate their personal domestic rivalry to full blown cursing and blood thirst ? Do not bring the 2nd or 4th generational emotional interpretations and hearsay ? Do you know how long 25 or 100 years is in 600ad where no electronic or photo records existed. How much distortion would have creeped into the history .

Please do not lay down precepts and pose as a Prosecutor General? I am an intellectual and given to analytic philosophical inquiry. If you have an episode to discuss, raise it here. I am not responsible for what Shias do. In any case, I have a lot of disagreement with them about interpreting partisan history. Do not be quick to condemn. Let us consider each episode on its merit.

[porus]

Surely that is not Islam but your own faith .

You can bet this is his own faith!

100% accurate. My faith, if you can call it that, is mine alone. I pick and choose and I alone am responsible for my views. My views are eclectic and draw on many religions and philosophies.

I do not say "My Maula said this so I accept it".

I would rather say "I agree with what your Maula says or I do not agree with what your Maula says".

If I agree with Maula, it becomes my belief an I become responsible for it. Maula will never be responsible for my belief. He is responsible for his. And he is welcome to change his belief and I have a right to change mine.

[porus]

ozmujaheed,

I have noticed that in your eagerness to have a swipe at me, you do not read my posts with attention. Please do so in future. Thank you.

zeal,

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that there is no profit either for me or for this forum to engage in debate with you. I hope you continue to be worthy of my efforts to address you directly.

[Zeal]

I do not say "My Maula said this so I accept it".

Porus,
Not sure which maula you're talking about , maybe one of them you keep switching between.

I just stick to my belief in one Allah, and his word delivered by Quran which is quite opposite to your eclectic approach .

[Zeal]

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that there is no profit either for me or for this forum to engage in debate with you

I thought you gave an advice to Ozmujaheed not to come to conclusions quickly just minutes before....

again switched views?

[porus]

Zeal,

You may be sticking to the Quran but you do not know much about it, do you?

If you stick only with the Quran, think of what you will miss from Bible, Gita, Dhammapad, Guru Granth Sahib etc. They are masterpieces and worthy of attention by all.

Maybe, you are thinking, like Umar, "who has need of those if you have the Quran?". Ok. Then, first, study the Quran and debate it with some scholarship, would you?

[Zeal]

You may be sticking to the Quran but you do not know much about it, do you?

Wow...you are pre-assuming I dont know, where you should be asking if I do? simple sensible approach for someone you know nothing about.

Well, in any case let me tell you the beauty of Quran lies in first believing it, then try to understand it.

The difference between you and me is...you try to understand it first , rather than believe in it first,

I wish happy reading to you of guru granth sahiba and others ...