Reform faith..

[Conscíous]

Humsafar & Zulfiqar,
It's time for you guys to step in and put me out of my misery, and school me a little.. Are my thoughts so absurd? And If you disagree with me, can you please point out the flaw in my thinking..
Thanks..

[JC]

I fully agree with BooM and Like Minded.

Dai and his family are the root cause of all this in Bohra Community. They want to have their share of cake and eat it too... at one point they claim Dai KNOWS ALL and on other, Dai does not know what is going on under his nose?!!

Believing in Dai or Imam or Khalifa or even Prophet has nothing do with Faith. Faith should be in Allah only, all other are 'means'.

[Humsafar]

I was meaning to respond to this but was too caught up with work. Frist off, I'm not sure what is meant by "Reform faith". It should be clear, as mentioned by others, that the refrom movement is not about reforming "faith" - personal or doctrinal. The reform movement is about soicial and administrative issues, religion only comes into the picture because all this is happening in the larger context of religion. Reformists are doing two things. 1) Pointing out all the corruption and misdeeds of the mafia clergy. 2) And showing how these actions are being justified by distorting and perverting religion. The abysmal ignorance of Bohras makes it easy for the mafia clergy to get away with whatever the hell they wish. Reforms cannot be brought about without the support of the people, and people will not support until they have a clear understanding of their religion and their heritage. Such has been the brainwashing in our community that when we reformists say this not what our religion tells us to do (e.g. Kadambosi is wrong, "royal family" is illegitimate or putting up dai's pictures is wrong) they think we do not "believe" in the dai or are trying to reform dawoodi bohra "faith". Only ignorant Bohras would say such a things. And over the past one generation the mafia clergy has been doing all it can to manufacture ignorance and willful slavery. The results are for all to see, and they proudly advertise it on all their site almost on daily basis.
Perhaps that's one reason your relatives would not listen to your good counsel. The other reason is of course convenience and the great Bohra cop-out "su karsu". This does not mean that your argument is wrong or the principles for which reformsits are fighting are wrong. It's just that the Bohras are not ready to wake up. That said, it is also true that the "silent majority" is quite fed up with the system of corruption and coercion. I know friends on the other side who are beginning to show signs of frustration and looking for alternatives. So, all is not lost. Wherever there is a spark of intelligence left there is hope. As reformsits we must continue to do our work.
On the other hand, if you are referring to the "faith" in the Dai then it indeed is a new phenomenon with no sanction in our books or tradition. The dai - through decades of indoctrination - has been deified into some kind of a personal diety for Bohras. The "belief" and "faith" in him has been made into a lynchpin of Bohra religion, and common Bohra have been made into dai-worshippers. This is the travesty of Islam. "Faith" in the dai is not a requirement to be a Bohra. Mere acceptance of his Daiship is enough. But, as we have seen even on this forum, many apparently educated and well-meaning abdes swear by their "faith" in Dai. So, if you're talking about "reforming" this kind of faith then there's nothing much you and I can do. It stems from the ignorance that cocoons the Bohra mind. There is no point in arguing with the ignorant. You only hope and pray that Allah will show them the light.

[Conscíous]

Hey Humsafar,
I would like to thank you and all the other members for answering this query of mine..
What I meant by "reform faith" was, todays generation of bohras, believe and have faith in the dai first, and not in Allah like the Quran teaches us and this is were the problem arises.. We as reformist believe that the dai is corrupted and we have all this evidence against him, but this generation of bohras are not even willing to look or hear about it because they have faith in the dai, just like we have faith in Allah (swt).. And it is that faith or bond which is impossible to break..
Let us look at this scenario..
A stranger or a family members walks up to me and starts telling me all the negative about Islam and our prophet muhammad (s.a.w) and is even ready to show me all the evidence to support his clams. On the other hand, I have firm faith in Allah (swt) and whatever he say or presents will not convince me, because I have been taught to believe at a very young age, and that belief has grown even stronger with age just like the bohras of this generation have been made to believe in the Dai, and very few, manage to break that bond..
here's another scenario..
If a common bohra is complaining about his financial and you ask him why, they'll blame the administration or even the son's but never the dai, and if you try to hint into the dai, they come up with some bizarre explanation and if you start pointing at his palaces and lifestyle, they'll take it as attacking their faith and most of them turn weird during this conveniences and that will be the last you'll ever hear from them..

The faith which I'm referring to, is the one, you've mentioned in your last paragraph..And thanks for clearing this and taking the time for straightening my thoughts.. I knew you and other true reformists would agree with me, and maybe, I just needed to hear it..

[Al Zulfiqar]

Some critics argue that religious faith is irrational and see faith as ignorance of reality: a strong belief in something with no evidence and sometimes a strong belief in something even with evidence against it. Bertrand Russell (my favorite philosopher) noted, "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of 'faith'. We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."

In the rationalist view, belief should be restricted to direct observation in the past and present.

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins criticizes all faith by generalizing from specific faith in propositions that conflict directly with scientific evidence. He describes faith as mere belief without evidence; a process of active non-thinking. He states that it is a practice which only degrades our understanding of the natural world by allowing anyone to make a claim about nature, or personalities or objects that is based solely on their personal thoughts, and possibly distorted perceptions, that does not require objective or fact-based testing, has no ability to make reliable and consistent predictions, and is not subject to peer review.

In the bohra context, over the last several decades a systematic and very deliberate plan has been put in place to elevate the dai as the focal point of a bohra's attachment or belief in his religion. this has been cleverly manipulated and implemented by spreading false claims of miracles, most of which have never been proven or evidenced but simply 'claimed', repeating the lie over and over again 'su eni niraali shaan chhe', 'ena ehsaan ane karam beshumaar chhe' etc with no basis in facts or deeds, by 'manufacturing' photo ops with celebrities, no matter how doubtful their backgrounds or immoral their reputations, using media to further the agenda of projecting the syedna as all powerful, bribing corrupt govt officials to utter highly exaggerated comments glorifying syedna, staging elaborate and very expensive public shows around the syedna filled with pomp and glamour, surrounding syedna with a vast retinue falling over each other to show him obesiance and sycophancy, making 2 rakats namaaz for syedna compulsory, having madehs and songs written exalting syedna as a divine being, having an army of hired muscles (known as amils) and his own family members referring to syedna as allah na dai, hussain na dai and according him completely invented but highly sacrilegious titles like haqiqi kaaba, natiqe quran, ghaib na maalik, sultan al bawahir etc. sinister and very cunning attempts have been made to establish links of syedna with the divine words enshrined in the quran, foisting highly dubious and invented tafseers of ayahs to justify the divinity of both the 51st and present syedna.

for the thinking and educated bohras, this has only served to further alienate them from the craziness which is prevailing in the name of bohra religion, but the majority have succumbed to these dangerous proselytizing tactics and now their 'faith' in the dai as being central to their entire belief system as a bohra has become irretrievably established. as mentioned by eminent thinkers above, this faith has no basis in reality. like any other faith it is blind and has strong roots which have taken a firm hold in their psyche. the curious thing with such a faith is that it becomes illogically more deep-rooted when attacked, as the one on the receiving end sees it as an attack on his entire belief system, nay, an attack on his 'self', his very existence in an ordered world of his own perception. it becomes a personal insult, a rebuke, an assault on his intelligence and reason. this usually results in violent emotional reactions as the subject prepares to confront his fears, which is in essence the truth, and this can be most unpalatable.

now having earlier concluded that 'faith' is irrational and lacks evidence, how do you 'reform' it? now that is a rhetorical question and highly debatable. since faith is amorphous and does not lend itself to any definition, it cannot be reformed or easily changed unless the subject is willing to change his mindset and approach his 'faith' from an angle of reasoning and factual approach as opposed to his previous blind acceptance. this willingness does not come easily and is usually deeply conditioned and influenced by one's upbringing, peers, society, education and work environment. unless some of these influences do not drastically change, the subject does not change either.

among the bohras, this faith in the dai has become so firmly entrenched in belief and practice that it seems well nigh impossible to change or remove its highly deleterious effects on our community, when this faith is being misused to commit more oppression, tyranny, loot and mutations in our core beliefs and practices. unless the community wakes up of its own accord, there is nothing we can do except continue with our feeble efforts to do our bit, exposing the evils and excesses of our clergy.

[humanbeing]

Hi AZ

Impressive expression of Thoughts and aptly chosen vocabulory to explain psychological struggle in bringing reform.

Hi Humsafar

Very well presented overview of faith. It was interesting to read your POV. Food for thought !!

[Conscíous]

Hey Zulfiqar,
Thanks for reassuring me and like always, a great delivery..

[ghulam muhammed]

If a Bohra comes out of the present community what are the things will influence him to go back to bohrism which he might say that I made a mistake listening /practicing the true deen and what are the steps he has to take to really break off any bonds he has with the community to become a real muslim as he should be in the first place.

http://www.islamhelpline.com/qa/why-boh ... k-bohraism

[Conscíous]

ghulam muhammed saheb,
It was a interesting article and thank you for sharing this with me..

[tml87]

I think this is a very interesting and worthwhile discussion so I am going to add my two cents to it. Let me start off by quoting the now late Christopher Hitchens from an article he wrote about the Mormon faith in the United States:

"I have no clear idea whether Pastor Robert Jeffress is correct in referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more colloquially known as the Mormons, as “a cult.” There do seem to be one or two points of similarity. The Mormons have a supreme leader, known as the prophet or the president, whose word is allegedly supreme. They can be ordered to turn upon and shun any members who show any signs of backsliding. They have distinctive little practices, such as the famous underwear, to mark them off from other mortals, and they are said to be highly disciplined and continent when it comes to sex, booze, nicotine, and coffee. Word is that the church can be harder to leave than it was to join. Hefty donations and tithes are apparently appreciated from the membership."

I do not doubt that this will indeed ring a few bells. Now, let me direct you to an article on a recent world event on what happens when 'cults' go large scale:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16262027

I will also quote what I feel is the most the most important passage within this article:

"No expression of emotion was apparent during that 1989 visit he made, he says, except mass hysteria.

"When I was in the huge stadium and the Great Leader [Kim Il-sung] came in, everyone stood up and started worshipping him, quite literally worshipping him and letting out a roar at the same time.

"It might be that these people would be terrified not to do that but at the same time it's possible that many of them felt a genuine allegiance to the Great Leader."

Again, there are eerily similar parallels to the mass hysteria in our mosques at Muharram. Why does this happen? Well, in my opinion, the direction the Bohra leadership has chosen to take in the last few years can be boiled down to one thing: the active encouragement, through threats and coercion, of something known as groupthink. Here's the Wikipedia article on what that means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink. It further shows the ruthless, businesslike machine that the Dawoodi Bohras are today.

So what does an amalgamation of all this translate to? In one word: fear. The Bohra leader and his deputies are basically nothing but agents of fear. That's what they are peddling. Fear of the unknown, fear of death, fear of ostracism, fear of an undignified burial, fear of the afterlife. Fear, fear and more fear. Ultimately, for even the most educated and enlightened Bohras a fear of death and the afterlife will ensure that they choose the convenience of the life they know rather than the life they don't. They choose not to speak out. They pay the few extra hundreds. They make that one extra bow of subservience. They endure the insulting language of a bhaisaheb. They keep that little beard that they would rather do without. It's just convenient.

Well, how does one reform in this case? How does one cure fear? I hate to tell you this Boom, but education is the only answer. That and time. The sheer monetary might of the Bohra regime means that they are able to exercise their power in innumerable ways. What we can hope is that we have our Arab spring: that the people realize that they are being controlled by tyrants and that one day enough is enough. Until then we do what we are doing. We take a stand and we speak out. And wait for our Enlightenment.

[Conscíous]

Hey tml87 and welcome to the forum..
I agree that they are playing on fear but how will you manage to educate a person into comprehending all; he/she has learned about the bohra version of Islam from childhood, is all a big lie and the Dai (tus) is a false deity, and all the miracles/ Mojizas he preforms are just a big fraud?? And not to forget, that the child from a early age has been taught in believing (inserting the virus as I call it) that they are enemy's out there to destroy the community and even kill the Imam, who is in hiding and has appointed the Dai to take care of the community.. As the child grows bigger and so does his faith and whenever someone attacks his faith, he'll self-deceit without even knowing it, as you'll start to notice on a few members on this forum
By the time they reach there twenty's, they are married and faith is the last thing on the list as most are trying to establish a steady income, home and the wife gets pregnant and whoops they are in there thirty's and well committed to the community and start to slowly to apprehend the reality .. but it's to late because the children are circumcised and going to the madrasa, and have already indoctrinate and the parent can't do anything because it's not only him/her self to think about anymore and as time passes by, they become just like the rest of them
It's not easy to stop this evil cycle...

[tml87]

I agree. It is definitely an uphill struggle. However, the events in the Middle East and north Africa this year, shows that all it needs is one spark to start a revolution. The Bohra hegemony that controls people by fear is remarkably similar to the tyrannical regimes that have only recently fallen in Algeria, Egypt and Libya. They will eventually overreach in the extent of their power and control (they already are to an extent) enough to drive people away.

[Conscíous]

I'm not so sure if we can compare the Middle East and our community and here are my reasons;
- People in the middle East, were hold hostage and had no other choice than to start a revolution, while people in our community are not held against their own will and are free to leave whenever they want..
- People in the Middle East, were fighting against the government, while our community is being protected by the laws that govern those corrupted countries..

Lets have a look at Kenya, which is one of the most corrupt country in the world and if I'm not wrong, Nairobi Jamat is also the most oppressed community in the world.. The police are the biggest thugs and all the politician are the mafia and this are the people whom are protracting the community.. The situation is so bad, that they have build and still building, one of the largest housing complex out side the city of Nairobi with everything from Mosque, school, swimming pool, football ground etc, surrounded with high walls and barbed wire.. And for someone who is living there to even imagine to spark a revolution is unthinkable.. And in Europe the situation is different and people are treated differently and it's because of this, people in the community don't share the same problem, and you know how people in this community are so self-centered and careless about the person sitting beside.. It's all about ME and My moula and to hell with the rest..

[tml87]

I do not aim to make a like for like comparison, my point simply is that the long history of human governance has taught us that people will not be taken advantage of forever. Sooner or later, there will be a change. We just have to wait it out and not have the unrealistic expectation that 'reform' is somehow within an individual's control or that our best efforts are bound to have some effect. They are not entitled to. Some things we do may work, they may create awareness but ultimately it may be something completely unexpected, like a man setting himself on fire to protest the confiscation of his fruit stall, that starts a movement.

[Conscíous]

Haha ( I'm laughing at myself because I've become such a pessimist towards our community and it's members lately and you just made me aware of something very important that I had lost.. Hope And I also realize, that I wasn't looking at the bigger picture and beyond me..
Thanks for enlightening moi

[Al Zulfiqar]

brothers,

let us not forget that the political uprisings in several middle eastern countries were, well, purely political. in our bohra context let's not forget that the bohra clergy have very cleverly used both the temporal powers of an absolute leader (who is literally running a state within a state) alongwith religious powers linked with social tools like excommunication, ostracism and rejection through malicious spreading of highly damaging lies and vicious gossip.

this particular combination is so effective that no one except the very, very few brave ones would dare to rebel or leave the community for fear of having all their social and familial ties broken and their reputations in tatters.

there is very little difference between the present behaviour of the kothari mafia and the days when the catholic church was all powerful and could literally crucify and burn dissenters at the stake. will it take another martin luther for our slavish bohras to wake up? i doubt even that, as our bohra society is far more tight knit than the catholics of yore. the fear of becoming pariahs, if any signs of rebellion are shown to the merciless clergy, far outweighs the desire for freedom and human dignity among the bohras of today.

[Smart]

I am a bit more optimistic about the situation.

Till a few years ago, the reform movement had access to the mind-space of bohras through physical pamphlets and newsletters which came by post. This process was fraught with danger. A rebellious youngster could not access these thoughts, firstly because there was no way to know such literature existed, then to get access to the reformist literature and secondly if the access was available, to do it discreetly, without raising the ire of other orthodox members of the family / neighbourhood.

Now with these thoughts very easily available and that too discreetly on the internet, the reformist ideas are reaching much larger numbers. This website has been the best thing that has happened to the reformist movement. A few post here, both from the abdes' side and the reformists' side, however the large and silent majority come here to read and contemplate about the issues. It will take some time to reach critical numbers. It will also take time for a large number of youngsters to overcome their own brainwashing. It is a gradual process. Let us all have patience. Once critical numbers are reached, the results can be as dramatic as we saw in Tunisia, Egypt and elsewhere.

Tyrants everywhere are afraid of the truth. It is the light of truth that they want to snuff, if they can. Let us all carry this torch, without losing heart.

[Conscíous]

Hey bro Smart,
You know I value your opinion and I was wounder why your weren't answering to my concern??!!.. Anyways, I've really not put so much thought about how much impact this website is doing to the common bohras but I won't deny that fact that it has helped me.. I guess, I'll just have to learn how to be patient, which is not in my nature...

[ghulam muhammed]

A few lyrics from the famous song 'Na koi raha hai, na koi rahega' from the film 'Johar Mehmood In Hong Kong":-

Sikandar Bhi Aaye Kalandar Bhi Aaye
Na Koyi Raha Hai Na Koyi Rahega
Hai Tere Jaane Ki Baari Videshi
Ye Desh Aazaad Ho Ke Rahega
Mera Desh Aazaad Ho Ke Rahega
Na Koi Raha Hai

Sikandar Ko Poras Ki Taaqat Ne Roka
Gori Ko Prithvi Ki Himmat Ne Toka
Jab Khuuni Naadar Ne Chhedi Ladaayi
To Dilli Ki Galiyon Se Aavaaz Aayi
Laga Le Tu Kitana Bhi Zor Ai Sitamagar
Ye Desh Azaad Ho ke rahega.

Halaaku Raha Hai Na Hitler Raha Hai
Musolini Ka Na Vo Lashkar Raha Hai
Nahin Jab Raha Ruus Ka Jaar Baaki
To Kaise Rahega Saalaazaar Baaki
Goa Ka Har Bachcha Bachcha Pukaara
Ye Desh Azaad ho ke rahega.