Mohurrum Tamasha Venue : The Countdown Begins.

[stranger]

Stranger
Since I was the first one to ask you the question so GIVE ME A YES OR NO
Do you believe that Prophet Mohammed shoved the Islam as was described by your cohort Pro.. Do you support his stand a simple YES or NO and then I will answer your question.

Since you have caught with foot in your mouth, you're probably looking for a lucky escape with unnecessary responses and just trying to divert the topic.

Anyway, lets come to the point :-
you did not asked me to take Stand on YES/NO , You just asked :-- "My question this is what is taught in SABAK that Prophet Mohammed SAW shoved the Islam as per your buddy Prof" ?
and To that I already replied :-
"I have never enrolled or attended any sabak till date, hence i don't know what they teach there."

However, your latest question is :-
Do you believe that Prophet Mohammed shoved the Islam as was described by your cohort Pro.. Do you support his stand a simple YES or NO and then I will answer your question. ?
I already replied to this too, I thought you were not too dumb to get that. anyway, My reply is :- I was not really in position to take a Stand of Yes/No collectively because of my Negligible or little knowledge on the subject .
But Since I am able to recall one of the riwayat from Sydena (TUS) Waa'z where Amar bin Abdewat was killed by Moula Ali (A.S.) because he refuted to accept Islam and Prophet Muhammed(SAW) as Messenger of Allah (SWT).
So Amar bin Abdewat was given with two Choices :- Either Accept Islam Or Face the Zulfikaar (Sword) ?
So its evident from the above Riwayat that here sword had been used to shower Islam.

Now, Its your turn to reply :-
Do you believe in our Da'i and his narrated Riwayat ? YES/NO .

If yes, then it makes Profastian Point right.
If No, then it makes your that claim false where you strictly stated that you believe in Da'i.
Or
Is it like that you are now going to question the action of Moula Ali (a.s.) ?

awaiting your reply !

[humanbeing]

"If you guys can able to recall one of the incident recited by Sydena (TUS). thou I also can not remember it exactly but still trying :-
A Man came to Medina againts Islam. He was very known and fierce fighter of that Time. Then Prophet (SAW) asked people to come forward to fight with him but instead of going ahead they started maskhari and murmurs that why don't prophet himself go and fight. Then Prophet (SAW) asked Moula Ali and He raised to the occassion and If you can recall what Moula Ali (a.s.) said to him :- "Either you recite the Kalma and accept Islam Or i may need to kill you ?"
He replied : "O Ali, I don't want to kill you since i knew your father ( ABU TALIB), i want to avoid any fighting with you."
The Ali (A.S.) replied : I have no option but to kill you & then they started fighting and hence killing him Moula Ali (TUS) turn victorious out of it."

Hi Stranger
Your learning from this Riwayat seems to be misplaced. I have heard this Riwayat in the Bayan, and it was very well clearly narrated by Sayedna Saheb. Furthermore referring to your own stated understanding of this rivayat, I would bring to your notice.

One person came to Madina against Islam !! He challenged and ridiculed Prohpet (pbuh), Thus Maula Ali went ahead in defense of Islam and its Rasool. Also before fighting Maula Ali asked him to embrace Islam not to save his life, but to save his soul. But the person did not accept Ali’s invitation to Islam and continued ridiculing Islam and its followers. The fight was to defend Islam not convert by force.

I have also heard another Riwayat, this is from an elder in the family :
Once Maula Ali was in the battle with another soldier against Islam, during the argument the soldier insulted Maula Ali and Spat on the ground in a fit of anger, Maula Ali withdrew his sword and stepped back from the fight, Surprised Soldier questioned Maula Ali of such withdrawal. To this Maula Ali commented that this war / fight is in the path of defending Islam and in name of Allah, however during the duel, behavior of the soldier made Maula Ali angry. So killing him would be out of personal vengeance rather than in defense of Islam, which would be a sin. Thus Maula Ali withdrew from the fight.

Please note, I don’t have authentic reference for this Story. My sincere apologies if this story is not true. I m just sharing what I was told.

[like_minded]

What baffles me is.... The likes of Syedna and his family claim to represent such great personalities!! It's a shame!! I mean, You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand the hypocrisy of the royal family.

[Muslim First]

The rawayat is during Khandak. The same war where the 3 morons ran away from the enemy. The man was Amar bin Abdewat. You could find references in authentic Sunni books.

Thank you for the details bro.

Br MF,
Profastian replied to your query i guess.

Br stranger
You could not get straight answer from foot licking member of DB cult like Pro. The battle was Hunan.
You could go to following shia site for the account of battle of Khandak.

Restatement of History of Islam
The Battle of the Trench
http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/26.htm

This issue was discussed in this thread

Re: usman and umar run away from battle?
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=5626

Please read post of feelgud on Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:40 am
Wasalaam

[profastian]

Br stranger
You could not get straight answer from foot licking member of DB cult like Pro. The battle was Hunan.
You could go to following shia site for the account of battle of Khandak.

Not everything that any website states is a fact...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench
Read up on who was the commander of the Jews....

[Muslim First]

Not everything that any website states is a fact...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench
Read up on who was the commander of the Jews....

Not everything that any website states is a fact...
True
But your demigod and his family are expert in fudging the truth
Br Pro
I am sorry for diverting your attention from the TAMASHA. It has become RAM LILA drama, Where truth is fudged. Lies are exaggerated; enormous amount of money is wasted. Abdes and their children are forced to skip their businesses or schools
Wasalaam

[ghulam muhammed]

A Very Interesting e-mail, as under :-

For a Shi’a perspective, I found the words of Omid Safi, a professor of Islamic Studies at the University of North Carolina and author of the new book Memories of Muhammad: Why the Prophet Matters, very interesting in his description of the Shi’a mourning ceremonies of Ashura, and the ways Shi’as should mark the day. He recently gave an interview for an Iranian news agency, where he said:

“The mourning ceremonies of Ashura are of course an important way in which we demonstrate our love affection for Imam Hussein, and through him, the Prophet. I am committed to the notion that identification with the redemptive suffering of the imam is a key aspect of Shi’I piety. And I would add two other elements: in the mourning, we have to be sure to continue to honor the sanctity of the human body, which is after all the creation of God. So in my own personal reckoning, I would prefer to see taking stories to heart, shedding of tears, and even the striking of one’s chest gently with one’s hand. I would suggest avoiding any action that would lead to shedding of blood (using knives, etc.) or leaving bruises (such as chains).

Furthermore, I would add that the foremost way of honoring Imam Hussein is not by sinking into the abyss of melancholy, but rather “carving a tunnel of hope through the great mountain of despair.” What would best serve the cause of Imam Hussein and Islam is not to sit in mourning but rather to rise in protest, rise majestically like Imam Hussein against all the Yazids of the world today. The Yazids of the world are sometimes individuals every bit as devious as Shemr and Yazid of yesteryears, but more often entities and concepts like oppression, greed, occupation, militarism, brutality, violence, and every oppressive ideology that stands in the way of affirming the dignity and integrity of each and every member of humanity. May all these Yazids, literal and metaphorical, be upended on this and every Ashura, so that we can realize the daily relevance of the teachings of a beautiful and meaningful Islam?”

And in his Facebook status update over the weekend, Professor Safi wrote that beyond being something just for Shi’as to mark, Ashura has significance for all:

The martyrdom of Imam Hussein is indeed a cosmic event whose significance is far greater than merely a bloody battle or even a massacre in the remote plains of 7th century Iraq. It is a reminder that there is real injustice in this world, and one has the cosmic responsibility to rise up against it. What happened “there” and then is also projected against all time and space. The question is not what Imam Hussein did in the month of Muharram of the year 680 on the plains of Karbala in Iraq, but rather what are we doing today. Every day is Ashura, Every place is Karbala.

I find his observations very interesting and spiritual, in that he takes a significant moment in Islamic history, something that led to the split of Muslims into two main sects – Sunnis and Shi’as – and reminds all Muslims the martyrdom of Imam Hussein was a “cosmic” event, and that instead of spending our time in mourning, we should all rise in protest against the injustices that still plague this world.

[Al Zulfiqar]

"The Yazids of the world are sometimes individuals every bit as devious as Shemr and Yazid of yesteryears, but more often entities and concepts like oppression, greed, occupation, militarism, brutality, violence, and every oppressive ideology that stands in the way of affirming the dignity and integrity of each and every member of humanity...It is a reminder that there is real injustice in this world, and one has the cosmic responsibility to rise up against it."

This is exactly what I have been screaming from the rooftops; reminding blind abdes and even the so-called bohras who claim to be progressive thinking, but cling to the notion that if the syedna conducts muharram majlises and exhorts abdes to do purjosh maatam, then it somehow becomes a divine act, one must do it mechanically and make "rova jevu moh" etc, as its a sacrosanct ritual; that this is in fact a mockery of imam hussain's sacrifice, as you forget the principles and the underlying philosophy of his actions and instead concentrate only on the rituals and blind traditions shoved down gullible brains by the clergy mafia.

the irony is that those who are indulging in this "oppression, greed, occupation... and every oppressive ideology" against the bohra community are the very ones delivering these thundering discourses and lecturing the gullible bohras on the superficial events of kerbala, whipping up the masses into a frenzy of grief and strong emotions and, making them do frantic maatam!! can anyone see this cruel irony?

in addition while sitting astride their grand takhts, these rascals cleverly intersperse subliminal messages which brainwash abdes into giving more money, spreading false miracles of syedna, and holding on tight to his daaman etc. even at the very climax when hussain's torso is cruelly seperated from his head, the cunning clergy manipulates the abdes into strengthening the dubious association of the dai with hussain.

this is muharram for dawoodi bohra masses.

[JC]

This Moharram is all a BIG TAMASHA ............. Money making, power-showing event!!

Bohraism is a cult, not a religion. It is a corporation unlimited with goon and thugs running it, selling products like Panjatan Pak, Ali, Hussain, Imams and Dais. They do not have any costs or expenses, just INCOME .... their assets never depreciate ....... rather appreciate, by every going day Hussain is becoming expensive and so are the 'spare parts' such as Dai and so is 'service' such as Manhous (oopppss Mansoos).

Bohraism is a country without any borders, the government takes heavy taxes but does not provide any SERVICE to its citizens (oopppsss what about Sawab, Barakat, Ehsan-e-Azeem and above all Janat..!!!) Pourjosh Matam is National Play, Milad-e-Meavi is the Independence Day, Royal Family is the Cabinet, Amils are the Majlis-e-Shaura and Wazaefuna is National Anthem.

Dai is Dai-ul-Mutlaq and Abdes are Jahil-ul-Mutlaqs.

Religion today is the Great Divide and cunning and shrewed people are using it. Human beings would be better off if they shun reliogion of all types and sizes.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bayan on Ashura (when almost every bohra is present) by one Shabbirbhai saab in Dubai :-

"Zakat is compulsory and it is MOLA who decides how much each of you has to pay and only then will your 'rozi' become paak".

See the twisting of quranic verses to suit the mafia clergy, it is no longer Allah (swt) but the dai who decides the amount of zakat to be given and to whom it should be given. All non-bohra muslims are therefore going against the command of Allah (swt) and in turn responsible for their 'Napaak rozi".

[ghulam muhammed]

A text message being circulated amongst abdes (In all probability it must have originated from badri/saifee mahal) :-

"Mufaddal Mola (tus) ni pehli vayez 5.1.1433, Add 5+1+14+33 = 53. Dai-ul-mutallaq Parvardigar Hamara bewe mola ne ta qayamat ba salamat baaki rakhe".

Now who says that abdes have forgotten their Imams of egypt. The numerology aspect doesnt say so !!

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro gm,

not just the abdes, even their masters have not forgotten the fatimid imams who ruled over misr. dont you see they are emulating in practice the opulent and luxurious lifestyle of these imams?

they lecture on hussain and his sacrifices, but in actions they follow the example of temporal rulers the imams, who lived in palaces and wallowed in luxuries.

they TALK about being shia and love of panjatan paak, but ACT exactly contradictory to the simple, honest and transparent lives of ali and the panjatan paak.

[like_minded]

Religion today is the Great Divide and cunning and shrewed people are using it. Human beings would be better off if they shun reliogion of all types and sizes.

Bro Jc

I fully agree with you!!

Religion today is nothing but a ritualistic nonsense! It has miserable failed to elevate humans to the next level, On the contrary it has only divided people, made people narrow-minded, superstitious, selfish, greedy and guilt-ridden.

[anajmi]

It has miserable failed to elevate humans to the next level

Well that would be the case only for those who believe in religion right? Those who do not believe in religion should be at the next level correct?

[like_minded]

It has miserable failed to elevate humans to the next level

Well that would be the case only for those who believe in religion right? Those who do not believe in religion should be at the next level correct?

Bro anajmi

People who are spiritual but not religious are already there.

[anajmi]

So I assume that you consider yourself to be at that level right? Care to tell us what it is?

[like_minded]

So I assume that you consider yourself to be at that level right? Care to tell us what it is?

There are many on this forum who have attained that level, Perhaps they can give you a better explanation.

[JC]

Thank you Bro Like Minded!

Bro Anajmi,

We cannot tell you or explain that level..!! Good things, Good deeds and what is Good will always remain Good and would inpire human beings. Injustice is bad, murders are not allowed, hatred should not prevail .......... all this can be attained without Religions ........ why do we need ReligionS?? Does not all Religions teach Good?? Why cannot we stick to common things, why we go by differences?? Musa, Essa or Mohammad, what difference does that make?? Look at the teachings, and interprete, see how those can be applied to todays life. Life has moved on, lot has changed .......... God has given us knowledge and wisdom, ability to research, learn and develop, why cannot be use it for our betterment as a whole??

Who knows, may be lifehereafter means one day this Earth will become so peaceful and full of love that it will be like Janat (Utopia may be?!). May be it means human beings will fight like animals and one day will make this earth a Burning Hell .......... who knows??

My simple Question - WHY do we worry about attaining Janat (or else would get Jahanum) and WHY not try to MAKE this life as if it s Janat or else it would become Jahanum ... we worry lot about future based on past and simply forget present..!!

[anajmi]

I have a question for the two of you, JC and like-minded. Was religion created by God or was it created by men?

[JC]

Very good (or clever?!) question Bro Anajmi!

Anda Pahlay Payda Howa Ya Murgee??!!

[JC]

Bro Anajmi,

We do not know if there is a God or not

If there is One, than why there is so disparity and injustice and why is He not acting?? Well we all have discussed this at length. So if there is No God and how is it possible that such a Universe and Galaxy is functioning in a perfect manner (if at all it is perfect)?? Then there must be a Creator... correct?! So WHO 'created' the Creator with sunch immense powers?? God is Khud BaKhud, so if God can be Khud Bakhud, so can this Universe and Galaxy be. But lets not argue that .......... lets accept lesser illogical of both assumptions - God Created this Whole Systematic Galaxy, But God is Khud Bakhud.

So if there is God, IF, then does He somehow talk to or guide Human Beings?? We cannot Prove that, MAY BE.

So lets reply to your questions - Religion has been created by some very knowledgeable and wise people. They were very clever and far sighted. You would agree that people have varied IQ levels and some are very genius and some are not. Since they knew their knowledge was far above (like a Phd teaching kindergarden), they came up with the idea of God which could be used, if I say I am all Genius, people will not accept (Woo tuo PAGAL hay, Kuch be bolta hay). I am Genuis because God has made me so and it is from God, Maree Kahan Takat??!! it is easier for people to belive and accept. OR may be it is becasue there is some God who is teachimg me all that (because else I even cannot convince myself why I am so genuis).

So lets move from kindergarden and become Phd. Today we do not need religion, Man has come long way.

[anajmi]

I am sorry, you wrote a lot but I gather that according to you religion was created by man correct?

If religion was created by man then man, is responsible for

On the contrary it has only divided people, made people narrow-minded, superstitious, selfish, greedy and guilt-ridden.

I would suggest you to come up with a better idea than religion that gives people more hope than religion. Present a better alternative and I am sure people will give up religion and come follow you. Give me something better than a God that will solve all my problems and will take me to jannah and I will come and follow you.

[seeker110]

I am not worried about the end,I will buy a safai chithi and I will be set.Mola must own Jannat why else he would be selling those genuine tickets.

[anajmi]

Hold your horses. I am waiting for JC and like_minded to give a better option than a safai chitti and jannah.

[JC]

We may not have something for now, but we have to first identify the 'cause' and then find 'cure'. First we all have to agree what is the cause and may be collectively try to find a cure. May be the concept of God is Good, I already accepted that (a less illogical thing for Khud Bakhud theory). There is so much disparity, illetracy, Jehalat etc that we may need a 'super natural' thing ....... may be we need to control masses by saying 'Khuda Daikh Raha Hay' if we have no other means to control them.
Coming to Religions, why not for a starter make it one's very own personal and internal affair. Bring down or tone down the concepts of religions, stop mentioning who is Christian and who is Muslim or Jew. Try to undo the religious divides, do not have holidays based on religion, stop construction of churches and mosques .... limit the movement of so-called religious scholars ......... PROVIDE alternative, which are say Law of Land (gradually we should eliminate political or geographical divide), say Union of India ........ have the Rules and Laws which are to be followed purely based on merit without concept of religion, say in Pakistan you cannot drive left hand, built on this idea to formulate laws ........ people should not see those discrimanatory or say oh that is for Muslims to follow or for Christians to follow ....... Division has to end, ofcourse people need to be educated, there should be equitable dstribution of wealth ....... it will take TIME, but we must start so that it could come ....... We need to DREAM big, big enough to try to achieve that.

[anajmi]

Try to undo the religious divides, do not have holidays based on religion,

Not a better option than holidays. I asked you to give me a better option not a worst one.

stop construction of churches and mosques

A church gives hope to a christian and a mosque gives hope to a muslim. What alternative are you giving which is better?

limit the movement of so-called religious scholars

Religious scholars have given hope to millions of humans who have been lost and hopeless. What alternative are you giving?

PROVIDE alternative

And what is that alternative? Religion isn't about what side of the road you can drive. First understand what religion brings to the table and then try to go looking for an alternative.

[seeker110]

Not sure if this is the place to have new ideas or repeat the old stories.

[anajmi]

If you are capable of new ideas let us hear them. If not, then you are better off repeating old stories.

[gurugandhwani]

Guru
I am grateful you are not part of Progressive and follow Kotharis because only Kothri Goons can teach you this kind of language

no need to be grateful . but that is a good way of escaping the topic we were discussing. BALLS. have you managed yet or not just blah blah blah and all or some real guts . you guys are women actually just bitchig no real stuff stand up and fight for your rights if you believe or else i pity you all. such a waste of time money and of course braind if anything is left of course

[JC]

Bro Anajmi,

Sorry you are missing the point ……. Crime is a crime, irrespective of who commits it, a person or a nation …….. what if we take out Judaism and Islam from Israel/Palestine conflict? In Iraq you can say there are US oil interests, may be yes, but this is second point when you do not have geographical and political divide, when there is equitable distribution of wealth, how this can be done, I cannot say for now ……… you construct mosques and churches, call them Community Centres which serve ALL irrespective of caste, creed, colour or religion…..

You see the fundamental problem with religion is that every religion requires complete submission and there is no point of debate or argument or say ‘change’. The flip side of Islam is Shiais, Sunnism, Wahabism which in turn has brought Barelevi, Deobandi, Ismaili, Bohras etc etc and each sect requires complete submission to what it believes to be truth and correct path. Hindu has caste system and Brahmins are supposed to ‘rule’. So there are Catholics, Protestants and Cpotics ……. Jews have their division, even Parsis have Shahanshahi and Qadmi …….. see Bohras now they have Masters and Slaves ……… AND all this in the name of Religion ….

May be hundreds of years it was correct to introduce religion to bring system and semblance to human life and for betterment of society, but today it has served its purpose and we need to move on as those concepts and ideas have not only expired but those have started hurting. If you continue taking a medicine after you are cured, it will have side effects, correct??

I know religion is not only driving on which side of road, but I am giving ideas as you asked for it. I may be WRONG, but the beauty is that I should be able to give ideas. Do not SHUT the door saying Islam or Christianity or Judaism does not allow this or that.

Today people are intolerant of each other basically because of religion, and of course then there are other things, but we have to tackle one by one based on priorities.