tamne su bare che

[porus]

anajmi,

My beliefs do not matter. You and everyone else should consider these subjects on their own merits. What would you do if I said that I do not believe in Gravity and yet consider Newton's work exceptionally revealing? Before you think that I am mad, you might, I hope, at least be tempted to consult Newton's work. (In the same vein, have you checked The Flat Earth Society's website. Brilliant minds at work! No, I do not believe them either.)

So, did you find out about seven heavens?

And how about this one from 2:63? Here Allah reminds the Jews that he lifted a mountain over them. What do you think happened? And no taawil crap, please. Ramayanesque, no? Hanuman swallowing the Sun....

[porus]

anajmi,

Another interesting set of ayats is 2:67 to 2:71. Why do you think the conversation between Musa and the Jews about the type of cow to be slaughtered is important enough to have ayats about them in the Quran? And 2:69 states a yellow (sufara) cow. Has anyone seen a yellow cow?

So, without any taawil crap, what do you make of this?

[profrog]

when you call them departed saints arent you doing shirk according to your religion,and if you believe that they are saints then what is wrong by visiting their graves,reply mf

[profrog]

anajmi how do explain in quran allah taking oaths of olives,figs or fajr or asr,or the ayat about abulahabs wife gathering firewood to burn him, surely this is the greatest quran direct from allah and then he swears by the fig and olives????

[feelgud]

Surah Teen1

In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful.
The mount of Figs2 and the mount of Olives3 bear witness and [so does] the mount of Sinai4 and this secure city5 of [yours] that We have created man in the best of moulds [as regards his purpose]. Then, We reverted him to the lowest [state] when/as he himself wanted to become low. Save those who accepted faith and did righteous deeds. For them shall be a reward unending6.
Now [O Prophet!] what is it that denys you about the Day of Judgement7? [Ask them] is not Allah the best of Judges8?
_----

1. The various oaths mentioned in the Quran are meant to present an evidence which substantiates a claim. The muqsim bihi (object of oath) serves as an evidence for the point made in the muqsim alaih (complement of oath), which sometimes is stated just after the muqsim bihi and at other times is suppressed when it is too obvious to be expressed. In this particular surah, the objects of oath are the mountains of Figs, Olives, Sinai and the city of Mecca. The complement of oath is the law of retribution mentioned in the succeeding verses.
2. Here the word Teen does not signify the fruit fig as most commentators have interpreted. It implies the Mount of Figs named after the fruit as it was produced in abundance on it. The Quran calls it Judi (Hood 11:44) a peak in the mountain range of Ararat situated near the frontiers of modern Turkey, modern Iraq, modern Syria and the town of Jaziraat Ibni Umar. The Taurat refers to it as mount Seir (Deuteronomy 33:2). It was in the valley of this mountain that the people of Noah were drowned by a flood in accordance with the law of retribution.
3. Like the word `Fig', `Olive' signifies the Mount of Olives located just outside the walls of the city of Jerusalem. According tp the Bible (Luke 22:39-53), it was from this mountain that Jesus (sws), the last Judaic Prophet was lifted to the heavens and the Jews, as a nation, were deposed forever from their position of religious leadership. This was because they had been left with no excuse but stubborness to dent their last Prophet --- Jesus (sws).
4. It is on this mountain that the Taurat was given to the Israelites and they were entrusted with the position of religious leadership as they accepted faith at the hands of the Prophet Moses (sws) and did whatever they could to help him in his mission.
5. The city of Mecca referred to here by the adjective of `secure' was once a land of war and strife. The Almighty endowed Mecca with peace and stability after Abraham (sws) had settled his son Ismael in it. It was in this city that the Ismaelites, the children of Abraham (sws) from his son Ismael (sws), were granted religious leadership in return for the tremendous amount of sacrifices made by Abraham (sws) --- of course! on the condition that they too would follow his footsteps. It was the result of this position of leadership that they were made the custodians of the Baitullah, the foremost centre of worship.
6. This is the complement of oath. The events which took place on the mounts of Fig, Olives and Sinai and in the city of Mecca bear witness to a certain premise. This premise says that since man has been created in the most appropriate form to undergo the test period of his life, therefore, it is in the fitness of things that if he of his own will falls into lowness, the Almighty should lead him to the grievous penalty of Hell and if he of his own will rises to greatness the Almighty should lead him to the blissful life of Paradise. In other words, if he passes the test of this life he shall succeed in the Hereafter, and if he fails he shall be doomed in the Hereafter. In the Taurat, all these four locations, which became a sight for the implementation of the Almighty's law of retribution, are mentioned in the following words: `The Lord came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir (Teen); He shown forth from mount Paran (Balad-ul-Ameen: Mecca) and came from the mountains of Quds (Zaitoon) (Deuteronomy 33:1-2). Their placement in the Quran has an important significance. The first two places are the locations where two great nations of the world --- the people of Noah and the Bani Israel were punished for their behaviour while the last two places are the sites where two great nations --- the two branches of Abraham's progeny the Ismaelites and the Israelites were rewarded for ...(JS)
7. A note of severe reprimand is indirectly sounded to the arrogant leadership of the Quraish. The Prophet (sws) is addressed and told that even after all this `tangible' historical evidence on the Day of Judgement is there any other testimony left which can induce the Quraish to accept faith.
8. This verse presents evidence on the Day of Judgement from another angle. The Almighty's attribute of being the best of judges entails the coming of a day wherein the righteous and the wrongdoers should be rewarded according to their deeds.

[profrog]

what you are saying finally is that the quran should not be taken on face value that there are hidden meanings in each and every sentence of the whole quran,and thats the taawil which the wahabbis are refusing to acknowledge.its said that everything is in the quran but you cannot get that just from translation or by face value

[Muslim First]

Br. Profrog
AS

when you call them departed saints arent you doing shirk according to your religion,and if you believe that they are saints then what is wrong by visiting their graves,reply mf

Saint is a term applied to pious person who lives selfless life helping others. When such person dies people remember him, his deeds and attach term Saint (Pir) to his name. So long as you do not pray to him, Kiss his kabar or bow to it. Remember my brother, Saints (Pirs) are not born they are created by Murids. (Saints don't fly; Murids make them fly after their death)

So brother If I think Mulla Taher Saifuddin (RA) [(Rahmet-Allah Alaihi)Porus notice!] was good, saintly person I might call him saint and it is not Shirk. Calling Gandhi a saint is not Shirk.
You better learn definition of Shirk.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

Br. Profrog

Here is some material regarding Graves which I have posted befor. It may be useful to you (I hope!)

Prophet SAW’ Grave:

Narrated Al-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn AbuBakr

I said to Aisha! Mother, show me the grave of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and his two Companions (Allah be pleased with them). She showed me three graves, which were neither high nor low, but were spread with soft red pebbles in an open space.
(Sunan of Abu-Dawood No.1425)

Can somebody have plastered graves?

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas

The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) cursed women who visit graves, those who built mosques over them and erected lamps (there).
(Sunan of Abu-Dawood No.1430)

Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: I forbade you three things, and now I command
(Permit) you for them. I forbade you to visit graves, now you may visit them, for in visiting them there is admonition. I forbade you drinks except from skin vessels, but now you may drink from any kind of vessels, but do not drink an intoxicant. I forbade you to eat the meat of sacrificial animals after three days, but now you may eat and enjoy it during your journeys.
(Sunan of Abu-Dawood No.1666)

Narrated AbuHurayrah
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Do not make your houses graves, and do not make my grave a place of festivity. But invoke blessings on me, for your blessings reach me wherever you may be.
(Sunan of Abu-Dawood No.831)

Visiting Graves
From Fiqh-us-Sunnah No.4.83

Visiting graves is desirable for men. 'Abdallah ibn Buraidah reported from his father that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "I had forbidden you to visit graves, but now you may visit them. It will remind you of the Hereafter." (Muslim, Ahmad, and the Sunan works) They were prohibited from visiting the graves because of their proximity to the jahiliyyah (Days of Ignorance) when they used incorrect and obscene language. After they had fully entered the fold of Islam, became well pleased with it, and had fully accepted its laws, the Prophet, peace be upon him, permitted them to visit graves.

Abu Hurairah reported: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, visited his mother’s grave and cried, and everyone there cried with him. Then the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: 'I sought my Lord's permission to seek forgiveness for her, but He did not permit me. I then sought permission to visit her grave and He permitted me to do this. You should visit graves, because they will remind you of the reality of death.'' (Muslim, Ahmad, and the Sunan, except Tirmidhi)

Since the purpose of visiting graves is admonition and remembrance of death, it is permissible to visit the graves of disbelievers. Weeping when passing by the graves of the wrongdoers who were seized and punished by Allah for their evil deeds, and to express one's humility and one's need for forgiveness of Allah is desirable. This is obvious from a Hadith, reported by Bukhari on the authority of Ibn 'Umar, that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said to his Companions, when they passed through Al-Hijr, the dwellings of the people of Thamud, "Do not go without weeping to the places of burial of those who are undergoing torment. But if you cannot weep, then do not enter these places lest what befell them should befall you."

Etiquette of Visiting Graves
From Fiqh-us-Sunnah No.4.83a

Whoever pays a visit to a grave should face the deceased, greet him, and supplicate for him. On this subject we find the following: Buraidah reported: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, taught us that when we visited graves we should say, 'Peace be upon you, O believing men and women, O dwellers of this place. Certainly, Allah willing, we will join you. You have preceded us and we are to follow you. We supplicate to Allah to grant us and you security'.'' (Reported by Muslim, Ahmad, and others)

Ibn 'Abbas reported: "Once the Prophet, peace be upon him, passed by graves in Madinah. He tumed his face toward them saying: 'Peace be upon you, O dwellers of these graves. May Allah forgive you and us. You have preceded us, and we are following your trail'." (Tirmidhi)

'Aishah said: "Every time it was my turn to be with the Prophet, peace be upon him, toward the end of the night, he would go out to the cemetery of al-Baqi' and would say,

'Peace be upon you, O abode of believers. What you were promised will come to pass tomorrow at a fixed time. We shall, Allah willing, soon join you. O Allah! Grant forgiveness to the people who are buried in al-Baqi' al-Gharqad',' (Muslim)

'Aishah also reported: "I asked: 'what should I say when I pass by a graveyard, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, 'Say, "Peace be upon the believing men and women dwelling here. May Allah grant mercy to those who have preceded us and those who are to follow them. Certainly, Allah willing, we will join you"'."

What some people do, like wiping hands over the graves and tombs, kissing them, and circumambulating around them are abominable innovations. Such things should not be done, for they are unlawful. These things are permissible, however, if performed in relation with the House of Allah, the Ka'abah, for Allah has so honored it. The grave of the Prophet, peace be upon him, cannot be considered a similar case, nor the tomb of a saint. All good comes from adherence to his example whereas all evil flows from innovating new things in religion.

Ibn al-Qayyim said: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, visited the graves to supplicate for their inhabitants, and to seek mercy and forgiveness of Allah for them. Contrary to this, the pagans supplicated to the dead, swearing by them, asking them for their needs, and seeking their support and help. Such pagan practices are in conflict with the guidance of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and his teachings about the Oneness of Allah and about the manner of supplicating for Allah's mercy for the dead. The people who do such things are guilty of polytheism; they are indulging in sin, and bringing evil to the deceased. They may be divided into three categories: those who supplicate for the deceased, those who supplicate through the deceased, and the third who supplicate to the deceased. They think that making supplications by a grave is better than in a mosque. For anyone who looks to the guidance of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and his Companions, the distinction between the two cited positions is fairly obvious."

Etiquette of Visiting the Prophet's Mosque and Grave
From Fiqh-us-Sunnah No.5.133

1) It is recommended that one should approach the Prophet's Mosque calmly and with composure. One should wear perfume, put on a nice clean dress and enter the mosque with the right foot, and say, A'udhu billahil 'azeem wa bi-wajhihil kareem wa sultanihilqadeem minashaitanir rajeem. Bismillah, Allahumma salli 'ala Muhammadin wa aalihi wa sallam, Allahummaghfir li zunubi waftah li abwaba rahmatika. "I seek refuge with Allah the Supreme with His Noble Face and with His Eternal Dominion from the accursed devil. In the Name of Allah O Allah! Bless Mohammad his family and his followers. O Allah! Forgive my sins and open doors of Your mercy for me."

2) It is also recommended to go first to the raudah (According to a hadith , raudah (literally, a garden) is the space in the Prophet's mosque between his grave and his pulpit. As is stated in the hadith below. The Prophet (peace be upon him) died in his house, and that is where he was buried) and offer there two rak'ahs as greetings to the Mosque with calm and humility.
3) After this one should head toward the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him) face it, and with the back to the Qiblah, give greetings of peace to the Prophet (peace be upon him), saying: Assalamu 'alaika ya rasulallah. Assalamu 'alaika ya nabiyallah. Assalamu 'alaika ya khiyrata khalqillah min khalqihi. Assalamu 'alaika ya khaira khalqillah. Assalamu 'alaika ya habiballah. Assalamu 'alaika ya sayyidil mursaleen. Assalamu 'alaika ya rasullallah rabal 'alameen. Assalamu 'alaika ya qa 'idal ghirril muhajjaleen. Ash-hadu alla-ilaha illallah, wa ash-hadu annaka 'abduhu wa rasuluhu wa ameen uhu wa khiyratuhu min khcllyihi, wa ash-hadu annaka qad ballaghtar rasalata wa addaital amanata wa nasahtal ummata wa jahdta fillahi haqa jihadihi. "Peace be on you, O the Messenger of Allah. Peace be on you, O, the Prophet of Allah. Peace be on you, O, the chosen one of Allah's creation. Peace be on you, O, the beloved one of Allah. Peace be on you, O, the Chief of the Messengers of (Allah). Peace be on you, O, the Messenger of the Lord of the universe. Peace be on you, O, the Chief of the unique generation. I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and I bear witness that you are His slave, messenger, trustee, and the chosen one of His creation. I bear witness that you indeed delivered the message (of Allah). Discharged your trust, counseled the Muslim community, and strove hard for the cause of Allah."
4) Now moving about a yard to the right, the visitor should offer his greetings to Abu Baker As-Siddiq, and then moving further another yard in the same direction, offer greetings to 'Umar bin Al-Khattab.
5) Then facing the direction of Qiblah the visitor should supplicate for himself, his family, friends, relatives, and the rest of the Muslims, and then leave.
6) A visitor should not raise his voice more than needed to hear himself. The people in charge should prevent others from raising their voices gently and politely.

It is reported that 'Umar bin Al-Khattab saw two men raising their voices in the Mosque of the Prophet (peace be upon him). At this he told them, "Had I known that you are from this city, I would have punished you."

Abu Daw'ud reported from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "Do not turn your houses into graves, nor make my grave a place of festivity. Send your greetings upon me, for your greetings are conveyed to me wherever you are." Abdullah bin Hasan saw a man frequenting the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and making supplications there. Thereupon he told him, O, so and so, the Prophet (peace be upon him) has said, 'Do not make my grave a place of festivity. but send your greetings upon me from wherever you happen to be, for your greetings are conveyed to me.' (In this respect) there is no difference between you and a man from (a distant country like) Andalusia."

Plastering of Graves or Building on them.

From Fiqh-us-Sunnah No.4.83

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) forbade that the graves should be plastered, or they be used as sitting places (for the people), or a building should be built over them.
(Muslim No. 478)

Prohibition of Sitting, Leaning, and Walking on Graves

From Fiqh-us-Sunnah No.4.71

It is not permissible to sit on a grave, or lean on it, or walk over it. This is based on a hadith reported by 'Amr bin Hazm who said: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, saw me leaning on a grave, so he said: 'Do not harm the dweller in this grave or do not harm him.''' (Reported by Ahmad, who considers its chain of narrators as sound) Abu Hurairah reported: "The Prophet, peace be upon him, said: 'It is better for you to sit on a glowing coal that burns through your clothes to your skin than to sit on a grave.'' (Reported by Ahmad, Muslim, Abu Daw'ud, Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah) In the opinion of Ibn Hazm this statement amounts to an outright prohibition because of the warning contained in it. He said this is the opinion of a group of the early Muslims of whom Abu Hurairah is one.

The majority of scholars hold that such an act is merely disapproved. An-Nawawi said: "Ash-Shafi'i (See Al-Shafi'i's work Al-Umm) and the companions mentioned in various narrations disapprove of sitting on a grave, holding it to be makruh tahrimi, (Makruh is divided into makruh tahrimi "that which is nearly unlawful without it being actually so," and makruh tanzihi "that which approaches the lawful.") a term well-known to jurists. The majority of scholars including An-Nakha'i, Al-Laith, Ahmad, and Daw 'ud hold this view. They also disapprove of reclining or leaning on a grave."
Ibn 'Umar, Abu Hanifah, and Malik are of the opinion that it is permissible to sit on a grave. Malik said: "We think that prohibition of sitting and leaning on graves means prohibition of using them to answer the call of nature.'' (Al-Muwatta) He cited a weak hadith in this regard. Ahmad considers the interpretation of Malik weak and said: "This is not an argument." An-Nawawi said that this interpretation is weak or false. Likewise, Ibn Hazm regards it invalid for a number of reasons. This difference of opinion concerns sitting on graves. However, there is agreement among the jurists, however, that sitting on the graves to answer the call of nature is unlawful. The jurists also agree on the permissibility of walking over graves if necessary, when for instance, there is no other way of reaching the grave of one's dear one.

.

[Muslim First]

.

what you are saying finally is that the quran should not be taken on face value that there are hidden meanings in each and every sentence of the whole quran,and thats the taawil---

Hasy Gorgy Piggy and Porus

It has been 1400+ years since birth of Islam. Your Imaams (20+ of them), 52 Dais and countless saints had plety of time of putting Taawil of on paper. Show me where can I find it?

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

.
Oops!

Typo: It should read "Hay Frogy Piggy"
.

[pro_pig]

muslim first
do u know who is your daddy is?

[porus]

MF,

All that you know about Quran is taawil, someone's interpretation. You have absolutely no direct access to God's word.

Think, how do you know how to prounonce the words of the Quran. You are only imitating others. How do you know Quran's words mean this and that. Because someone interpretaed them for you.

You are almost entirely a slave of others when it comes to interpreting God's word.

When you have emptied your mind of all this and removed arrogance from yourself (a certain knowledge that only you are right), you will be ready to take first steps in taawil. You will then see the futility of written words.

While some taawil is available in written form, it is really dead because taawil requires dynamism of a conversation. I will not discuss taawil with you on this board.

[anajmi]

porus,

First, your belief is very important in the discussion that we are having because you represent the text book definition of a hypocrite.

According to Merriam Webster - Hypocrite

1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

You have clearly stated that you do not believe in Allah, heaven or hell or in the unseen as far as the spritual is concerned. According to you, the quran was written by a human without any divine inspiration. Now, when someone like you who dwells only on taawil, which would have no basis without divinity, it is pure hypocrisy and fitna.

I believe every ayah in the quran has a hidden meaning. I just won't dwell on the hidden meanings cause it does not matter to me. I don't care if a yellow cow was born or if Jibraeel painted one to test the jews, or if a yellow cow actually means Imam Hussein.

Maybe by asking the jews to find a yellow cow Allah was testing them and then by mentioning it in the quran he is testing us.

Besides, I believe Allah created the universe. Do you think it is difficult for me to believe that he can lift a mountain without tying my brains in a knot about Hanuman swallowing the sun?

I would be willing to read newton about gravity, I just wouldn't be interested in hearing or reading about gravity from you!!

All that you know about Quran is taawil, someone's interpretation. You have absolutely no direct access to God's word.

I would agree with you since you do not believe the quran to be God's word in anycase. Besides you entire argument is not worth commenting on, but I will in anycase. When a child is born, he knows nothing, he learns only by imitating others.

wodfmwe09243nkglk;ow weporwer092 weilwefnjwe wekwjer3-5-lwkjef welkrweril.

Get the taawil of that - that is purely from me, haven't imitated anybody else!!

[anajmi]

It's a good thing you brought up the story of the yellow cow as it makes things a bit more clear.

See there is a simple lesson in that story. Do not ask too many questions. The more you ask, the more difficult your task becomes. If the jews had just listened to Musa (as) and sacrificed a cow, without asking him about the color, they wouldn'tve had to go looking for a yellow cow which I am assuming would've been difficult for them to find.

However, since I believe in Allah I believe that a yellow cow can very well exist.

You however, do not believe in Allah and since you haven't seen a yellow cow, it becomes impossible for you to believe that one can exist. So it becomes an obsession, a compulsion, for you to find the perceived hidden meaning behind the yellow cow which sends you looking for taawil.

Now I learned all that from the quran without even going into taawil. Allah teaches whom he wills and others, he sends around in circles chasing their own tails.

[porus]

anajmi,

Good response.

So you will not dwell on 'hidden meanings'. I am not sure if I ever stated that taawil means "hidden meanings". If I did, that was an error. Unlike you. I do not think there are any hidden meanings in Quran. Ayats may be unclear to me, but that is a measure of my understanding or lack of it. We may close this debate now and you can declare yourself victorious. I will keep chasing my tail.


Hypocrite - (as it relates to this discussion) pretends to be a believer and is not. I do not pretend to be a believer.

[porus]

anajmi,

I believe, without proof, that universe operates in accordance with certain laws. These laws are not violated by Will of God. What appears miraculous to us is that we do not currently have the knowledge of the laws governing that event.

So the event described in 2:73 just does not make sense to me. Allah resurrects a dead person by having it hit by a piece of a yellow cow!

But for believers, all things are possible for Allah.

[porus]

This is my final post on this issue.

I need to make distinction between baatin and taawil. Some say ayats have baatin (hidden meaning). Taawil is the process of returning to the essence of Existence using scriptures. The word taawil is derived from awwal, meaning One, or in this case, Unity.

[porus]

Different issue. Since you never tire of calling me a hypocrite and kafir.

You broke covenant with Imam and are going to hell. As my wife constantly points out to me. "Why do you deny Allah's wisdom in making you take birth in a Bohra family? And what makes you think you are better than Imams and Duaat?".

I have yet to find a satisfactory response to that.

[anajmi]

I do not think there are any hidden meanings in Quran. Ayats may be unclear to me, but that is a measure of my understanding or lack of it.

Again, that is simply because you do not believe in the quran to be the word of God. So if we take the divinity out of it, then if things are not clear to you, then that would be either because the author didn't know how to write or the reader doesn't know how to read - as you correctly pointed out.

[anajmi]

Taawil is the process of returning to the essence of Existence using scriptures.

Do you think 1400 years from now some other porus will be reading Harry Potter and trying to return to the essence of Existence using it? What would you think of him?

[anajmi]

So the event described in 2:73 just does not make sense to me. Allah resurrects a dead person by having it hit by a piece of a yellow cow!

See, Allah didn't need the yellow cow to resurrect a dead person. He could've done it with a grey cow or a blue one too. He didn't even need a cow. I think the reason it was done that way was simply to separate out people like you from people like me.

Now I would love to understand the essence of existence that you might've gathered or discovered or understood from the story of the yellow cow. Maybe on a different thread?

And thanks for explaining the difference between taawil and baatin. Things are a lot more clear now

[Final Destination]

Pro frog you are a world class prick! If you are so firm in your beleif then how come you landed up on this site??
Iam sure there's an insect (KEEDA) in your mind that you are getting inquisitive but you fear the most is your society.
People like you are Blind faith fanatic! Am sure you fear Mola more than Allah!

[Final Destination]

(For anything, they instantly utter "Maulani dua si" where is Allah? the creator of this Universe? Lost!!!)
Like minded excuse me Id wish to correct you here. You can not put Allah in Mola's place because Allah Almighty gives and doesn't need to do Doa. So of course you have to credit someone for his Doa that you have been on the winning edge. So it can be your folks friends Dai Mazoon etc,,..
Yes but always credit Allah and thank Him for what he gives and then give credit for one who prays for you.
But what to do..the people are programmed to say Mola first then Allah!

[Humsafar]

To take back this discussion to where it started: interpretation of the Qaran. So anajmi you admit that there cannot be just one, single, absolute interpretation of the Quran. From the discussion of ayahs which Porus and I cited, it is clear that most ayahs are allegorical and their meaning and interpretation are not obvious unless one brings one's understanding and context to it. Your interpretation is bound to be different from mine, that is why imposing the Wahhabi template on Islam is wrong and unreasonable.

It's no use saying "since you don't believe it to be the word of God it shouldn't matter to you". By the same token your belief in God and his authorship of the Quran does not give you the licence to justify every absurdity by saying that God must have meant this or God must have meant that, He is testing the jews and He is testing you. That's plain evasion. You can't have it both ways. As Porus said, let's discuss the Quran on it own merits, on it's own terms. And don't be in a rush to declare yourself "victorious" which I admit is easy for you because you don't have to "prove" anything. Your presume to know God's mind and seem to speak on his behalf.

[porus]

Humsafar,

I wonder if anyone on this board learns anything about Quran from anajmi.

Personally, I find his unrestrained fanaticism quite off-putting.

God bends the laws of universe to entertain a fanatic's fantasies about the "truth" of his, and only his scripture. If a yellow cow appeared in Ramayana, he would mock it.

I start from the premise that whatever or whoever, God, if you like, has set up the universe and does not change its laws to suit a whim of a fanatic. Einstein said it more succinctly and eloquently. "God does not play dice with the universe."

So, he can have his victory, and I, a respite.

[anajmi]

porus, humsafar,

So anajmi you admit that there cannot be just one, single, absolute interpretation of the Quran.

I admit no such thing. I just admit that there are more than one interpretation of the quran. Hopefully, you are smart enough to understand the difference.

From the discussion of ayahs which Porus and I cited, it is clear that most ayahs are allegorical and their meaning and interpretation are not obvious unless one brings one's understanding and context to it.

So what is your understanding and context behind the ayah of the yellow cow?

It's no use saying "since you don't believe it to be the word of God it shouldn't matter to you".

And why not? You don't believe in it to be the word of God. So how can I have a discussion about what God might've meant when he asked the jews to find a yellow cow when according to you, this particular incident is a piece of fiction and whoever in his right mind tries to find the meaning behind what happens in a piece of fiction?

For eg - Can I have a discussion with you about what Harry Potter was thinking when he fought Voldermort? Wouldn't it be stupid?

By the same token your belief in God and his authorship of the Quran does not give you the licence to justify every absurdity by saying that God must have meant this or God must have meant that, He is testing the jews and He is testing you.

What absurdity are you talking about over here? I think you are loosing your mind.

That's plain evasion. You can't have it both ways. As Porus said, let's discuss the Quran on it own merits, on it's own terms.

I am not sure what you mean by - discuss the quran on it's own merits, on it's own terms. Do you want to begin the discussion by assuming that the quran was written by a human and then evaluate the ayahs to see if a human could've written them without divine inspiration? I can do that. Should I select the ayah or will you?

And don't be in a rush to declare yourself "victorious" which I admit is easy for you because you don't have to "prove" anything.

I have been on this board for over 6 years now and I don't think I have seen any proof from either of you for any of your claims, so I think we should drop this.

Your presume to know God's mind and seem to speak on his behalf.

I thought we were all allowed to have our own interpretations weren't we?

[anajmi]

I wonder if anyone on this board learns anything about Quran from anajmi.

They certainly won't be learning anything about it from you. And that is because you won't teach anything to anybody and that is because you wouldn't want anybody to imitate you right?

Personally, I find his unrestrained fanaticism quite off-putting.

yeah, I do that to people. And all I am doing is just defending my religion, my book and my God from attacks. Not that they need me to.

God bends the laws of universe to entertain a fanatic's fantasies about the "truth" of his, and only his scripture. If a yellow cow appeared in Ramayana, he would mock it.

C'mon porus, you don't expect me to believe in the Ramayan just because I believe in the quran do you? That would be really stupid, because the very reason I don't believe in the Ramayan is that I believe in the quran. So yes, if a yellow cow appeared in Ramayan, I would mock it, cause I don't believe Ram has the power to create one!!

I start from the premise that whatever or whoever, God, if you like, has set up the universe and does not change its laws to suit a whim of a fanatic.

All the miracles quoted in the quran actually did not happen just because now I believe that they happened? And because I believe that they happened, they could not have happened because God wouldn't want to change the laws of the universe so that I can believe in him? I think you need to go back into hibernation. I may be really putting you off over there.

Einstein said it more succinctly and eloquently. "God does not play dice with the universe."

I am not sure if you understand the context behind that quote of Einstein.

[Average Bohra]

Pretzel logic; your analagy to Harry Potter is at best idiotic, unless you are conceding that Quran is fiction as well. I commend Humsafar and Porus at even attempting reason and debate in spite of such nonsense as the very reason I don't believe in the Ramayan is that I believe in the quran. So yes, if a yellow cow appeared in Ramayan, I would mock it, cause I don't believe Ram has the power to create one!!

Such ignorance begs an analogy from Harry Potter to repudiate it; not fact. Frankly, Muslims don't give a damn about the Yellow Cow, or anything else in the Quran other than the ritualistic, showy, easy to display acts such as the Pillars, throwing rocks and kissing stones. It makes it easy to be a Muslim because others can witness those acts which is the primary objective. Everything else is secondary even if they happen to understand it. It is unimportant as long as it does not require rote or ostentation. The focus is on the display not the substance. It cloaks the insecurity of a tender mind.

[anajmi]

Average Moron,

You should not try to understand my analogies. Just count the number of my posts.

post number - 4092.

[Average Bohra]

Congratulations ! This has been your only factual post thus far. Keep it up.

Harry Potter will be proud of you....