Imams do not not know Ghayb

[humanbeing]

HA HA HA !! Some one is getting paranoid ! Scared in the Pants !!

Forget any sunni-wahabi community ! Kothari community will be the first to hack into this site.

Hey forum members, this guy is surely a Kothari agent. He is threatening this site with what his employers can do !!

[Al Zulfiqar]

admin,

progticide's comments definitely constitute a veiled but obvious threat and should be investigated and preventive measures put in place. i'm sure that safeguards are already in place, but we can see how the DABR's (dawoodi abde bohra regressives) are getting panic attacks already. a fire has been lit under their bottoms.

"someone's gonna get hurt pretty bad... " russel peters.

[ghulam muhammed]

By the way, where is the kothar defender, Adam ? It seems that Nahjul Balagha was too difficult for him to understand and defend.

[Al Zulfiqar]

By the way, where is the kothar defender, Adam ? It seems that Nahjul Balagha was too difficult for him to understand and defend.

he has gone to "celebrate maatam"... in the words of one his asslickers....

[Hussain_KSA]

First I was indirectly threatened to be hacked by Saudi Governement or security agencies, now it is said that some extermists group may try to hurt modrator, Admin, Women and children of Proggys.

My question is that why only proggys? Said Fatimi liturature and books are being followed by Ismiali Nizari (Khoja) Dawoodi, Suleimani, Alwi, Mehdi baughwals so list goes on.

First of all no one (mainstream muslim community) care for this tiny sect and certain recent acts by some individual has damaged the reputation of communty badly, Secondly as many abdes have said that proggys doesn't look like momins sans STD so the chances are bright the the wrath of common people would be on dawoodi bohras only (if ever happend)

We reformist are used to such threats and even more so we dont care for this. History has witeness many attrocities on us whenever the time come we know to defend ourselves.

[Hussain_KSA]

Many times some seasonal visitors come and asks about our beliefs, sources etc. Some of them are trained in Kothar and some of them who are betrayers ( who studies it without raza and than discussed it over here I consider such people a "reformist"). They think that only Kothar and Jamia have authority over religious books. While according to an index of Jamia Saifia library some books are missing which is available in Institute of Ismili studies (London) these books were donated by two families during last decade.

When some one ask about our sources and books we think it is better to upload on this forum to rest the all quarries. Some of these books are being translated and published by IIS. London. However I agree that books on Taweel and other secrets like Imamat and cyclation of time etc still remain secret.

I would like the get the feed back of members about their views.

[SBM]

However I agree that books on Taweel and other secrets like Imamat and cyclation of time etc still remain secret

Hussain Bhai
Any special reason why they should stay secret?. Ilm is like flowing water if it flows it remains fresh but it gets collected in a Pond it starts stinking.
By the same logic Kothari Goons for ages had been saying that the translation and understanding of Quran should remain secret and only few selected one should know about. They are doing the same in secret SABAK what can be so secret about Religion, In my humble opinion Islam is very transparent religion and learning about it gives better understanding of our daily life.
I know Regressives will be jumping up and down and tell us that we are not scholar or smart enough to understand the Tawil and my answer what other better way to learn then to open it up for scholarly debate ( a la Porus-GM- YOU-may be Doctor and others) and educating the masses here.

[porus]

First I was indirectly threatened to be hacked by Saudi Governement or security agencies, now it is said that some extermists group may try to hurt modrator, Admin, Women and children of Proggys.

I am assuming you are referring to threats from Progticide. While his identity remains a secret, I am assuming that the Administrators of this site are vigilant and have taken steps to guard against mischief makers.

Personally, I think that Progticide is a paper tiger.

When some one ask about our sources and books we think it is better to upload on this forum to rest the all quarries. Some of these books are being translated and published by IIS. London. However I agree that books on Taweel and other secrets like Imamat and cyclation of time etc still remain secret.

I would like the get the feed back of members about their views.

A great deal of information on Ismaili Tawil and Cyclical Time is now in public domain. Hence I do not believe that it should remain secret.

Once the books become readily available to all and sundry, multiple interpretations, not all agreeing with official Bohra views, are bound to spring forth. This is a threat to power of those who would keep this knowledge secret. However, we can see that there is an even greater threat to their power due to lack of accountability and the cultivation an un-Islamic personality cult. This threat has nothing to do with 'secret' knowledge, which only a tiny minority would be interested in or would have the time to study. Most are interested only in bread and butter issues.

I am completely in favor of distributing books as widely as possible both to this site and other sites like IIS to be freely available for download and also to individuals via e-mails to multiple domains, especially in Western democracies.. This way knowledge would spread with minimal danger of it being traced for removal by cultists.

[anajmi]

Personally, I think that Progticide is a paper tiger.

I think he is nothing more than an asswipe.

Knowledge that is not open for scrutiny is knowledge that is not worth seeking. I have said this before. The mother of all books, the Quran is open to scrutiny by all and sundry and a lot of people have written a lot about it. Same is the case with the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). If your the knowledge in these books is so shallow that you need to prevent them from being scrutinzed, then you shouldn't be staking your hereafter on such knowledge.

[SBM]

For All Regressive please read the following (Life of Prophet)
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=7012

[Hussain_KSA]

Porus,
I have sent you the book "Cyclical time and Ismaili Gnosis" in pdf version. You owe me some $

[porus]

Porus,
I have sent you the book "Cyclical time and Ismaili Gnosis" in pdf version. You owe me some $

Thank you very much Hussain bhai. I owe you more than "some $". Jazakallah.

[JC]

Forget Ghayb or not, there are NO IMAMS .........!!!!!!!! they themselves are GHAYB...

[accountability]

Porus: pl elobrate

in one of the post on this thread some one brought up the ownership of religion.he said that dai does not need followers, but followers need dai or haq na saheb. he went on to say, it is upon dai to accept some one's following. this is a totally new concept in religion. before coming to this post, i tried to find example in any religion, whose caretaker (pope, dalai lama, swami, ayatollahs, imams, sajjada nasheens makhdooms, adam smith, mormorns, later day saints and archbishop) has ever claimed the ownership of religion. Dai as such is not founder of the religion, he is by all means a summoner to the religion he is entrusted to, which he himself claims to be in touch with. A summoner does not have the right to refuse the followship if offered in sincerity. By refusing to accept misaq or followship he will be negating his own status as summoner.

our own books, daim ul islam and others do not give any guidance regarding conduct of daiship in seclusive period, where imam is hidden. it is being argued that in absence of imam dai automatically assumes the privilages of imam. that is not so in case of daim ul islam. non of the book that we follow for fiqah refrence gives any prefrence to dai over an ordinary misaq giver to imam where in present or seclusion. Dais were dismissed by imams for not following his orders. as daim is silent on daiship in seclusion, we may assume that dai's of seclusion have equivelent status as of dais in obvious. to claim superiority for present dais over dais in presence is not validated by any of our books.

in our case our learned jamia ustaads claims on the basis of irrelevent narrations. according to daim, imams have never claimed infalibility, but here it is claimed for dai without any solid refrence from any of our refrence books. well i must admit that it is rather complicated for me to understand. so porus i come to you to seek our salvation.

[anajmi]

he said that dai does not need followers, but followers need dai or haq na saheb. he went on to say, it is upon dai to accept some one's following. this is a totally new concept in religion.

This is not a new concept. This is the primary concept in Islam with regards to Allah. Allah does not need our worship. We need Allah. Bohras being idol worshippers and mushriks, have applied this concept to the Dai. This only goes to prove that the Dawoodi Bohras are on the path to kufr.

[accountability]

you are right anajmi, Allah does not need our worship, it is us who need to pray to him for our own salvation. But i was talking about in terms of so called human caretakers and custodians of religion. This is the first time that caretakers are claiming ownership of religion. Even Prophet has never said this, he has always referred to Allah as sole proprieter of religion.

[porus]

accountability,

While Islam is not 'owned' by anyone, people readily offer themselves in body, soul and wealth to their leaders. You have heard Bohras proclaiming the Dai to be their 'jaan ane maal na malik".

In this day and age you instinctively recoil against this notion. However, Quran and Bohra deeni books are of no help to you. Quran may talk about equality in afterlife but clearly allows slavery and inequality among men and women. In addition, it allows inequality of wealth and proclaims that Allah has raised some above others and how some may serve others. See, especially, 43:32.

While Fatimid books do not say anything about Dai ul-Mutlaq, books by Duaat raise his position high enough to make his status indistinguishable from that of Prophet, Ali and Imams. That is why abdes on this board will quote ayats of the Quran and chapters from deeni books relating to behavior in front of the Prophet/Imams to justify identical behavior in front of the Dai.

Thus your religion gives absolute authority, religious and temporal, to the Dai, all justified by scriptures.

There are not enough knowledgeable people with contrary view to challenge this state of affairs and the Daawat set-up does not allow for checks and balances with regard to the function of the Dai.

In other words, Dai can say yea or nay to you about anything whatever, including accepting you or rejecting you or your misaaq. As Adam has pointed out, if you disagree with what the Dai says and does, you are not a Bohra.

Imagine Bohradom as a castle. You may have heard about how fabulously happy people are inside and may want to get in.

If you are outside and happy, you should familiarize yourself with the story of Dr. Faustus before seeking entry.

If you had once been inside and want to get back in because people you love are inside, you are likely to sell your soul despite the fact that you are out because you were unhappy inside.

[Al Zulfiqar]

a slave absolutely abhors his slavery. the daily beatings, torture, whippings, being used and abused, the mental and spiritual torment, humiliation and degradation. but he takes solace in the company of his fellow slaves among whom he takes comfort as being soulmates, of being fellow travellers in the same boat, the sense of familiarity and camaraderie, which curiously grows stronger, the more humiliation and pain he suffers.

if this slave manages to escape because he is so angry and unhappy, he soon misses his fellow slaves with whom he had grown so close and his daily routine with them, no matter how painful and undignified.

the only thing that would prevent this slave from re-joining his former slaves would have to be his fierce sense of freedom and his self-respect above everything else. if that trounces his loneliness and aching heart which pines for his fellow human beings who have been reduced to worse than animals, then he will revel in his new found dignity and self-worth.

if he goes back, he knows he will have reduced his stature in his own eyes and dug an even deeper hole for himself. this is what is happening to abde bohras on a daily basis and esp. to those who come back, shamefacedly and with their tails slunk between their bent legs.

[Adam]

What's interesting is the people getting all excited about these books are not even Dawoodi Bohras.
Nice post Progticide.
To the "OPPOSITION", since you all will be getting all these books soon, you better read up on how the TRUE Dawoodi Bohras are supposed to seek Ilm, and its system. And almost every book (names have been mentioned on this thread) will have the command to seek "IZN" ie RAZA by the author himself. So, if you don't even respect the mere "request/command" of the author, that shows what you truly believe in.

[Adam]

@PORUS
All what I quoted are infact what Syedna Qazi Noman has already clarified.
That's if you care to read his books and understand it correctly.

[anajmi]

Ilm from Allah is better than ilm from humans that is of no use to anybody because you need the author's permission to read. This kind of ilm is pretend ilm. The author knows this. That is why he needs to protect it from people who will rip it to shreds. Ilm from Allah is available freely for anyone who wants to receive it. And that is the best ilm.

[porus]

@PORUS
All what I quoted are infact what Syedna Qazi Noman has already clarified.
That's if you care to read his books and understand it correctly.

Adam,

First, we could do worse than ignore Wahhabi hecklers who echo centuries of Western scholarship of the Quran in denying any mystical or philosophical significance of the content of Quran. In this, until recently, Westerners have completely ignored contributions of the Muslim gnostics in which major contributions have been made by the Shia both Ithnasharis and Ismaili. Westerners, or Orientalists, are just beginning to discover this knowledge. And they are making it available even if Bohra clergy wishes to hide it.

Just like in the past, gnosis or haqaaiq has been subject to attack and its promulgators have been subject to extreme persecution. That is the prime reason why they hid their speculations from everyone except the initiates.

However, modern age is fundamentally different due to global internet revolution. All this knowledge continues to be made available for all. Of course, there is a danger that it will be misinterpreted. In that case it is the responsibility of people like you to offer corrections instead of just saying that the interpretation is wrong.

It will be difficult, almost impossible, to stop the spread of knowledge. You will then lose people to alternative interpretations.

I would advise you to watch the 4-part Youtube video referenced elsewhere on this forum about a Bohra who converted to Ithna-asharism. His primary argument was that he did not get any knowledge when he asked and that is why he left the Bohraism. He did not complain about accountability or corruption like proggies do. I do not agree with his reason for changing his religion. He wanted to remain within the religion he was familiar with.

But there is far more information on Chrisrtianity on the internet. So.....

[anajmi]

In that case it is the responsibility of people like you to offer corrections instead of just saying that the interpretation is wrong.

All that great knowledge from great gnostics and haqaiqis is what? All that mystical and philosophical content of the Quran leads to what?You need to do sajda to the Dai and that he is infallible. ANd mustawda and mustaqar Imams. Great knowledge indeed!! Ignore the hecklers so you can perform idol worship in peace without being persecuted. But first, tell me who you follow!!

And how can I forget Venus descending on the house of Ali??

[accountability]

thankyou porus.
I am still at loss to understand why does any one need infalibility. if people die and live the same way as humans do, then they are human. Humans are just inteligent species, who unlike other tend to walk straight and on two feet. Human are vulnerable to every and any thing. whoever you are, if you are living with human qualities, you are human, you fall sick, you feel pain, you are happy, you are sad, you are alive one moment and dead other moment. This has happened to all and sundry. Even to prophets and messengers of God, if they were human, they lived like human and died like human. Humans do err, you know what, you just ate something last night mistakenly, this morning it is terrible. Did this happen to prophets, of course it did. Did messengers ever got fever. I bet every now and then. Homo sapiens have strolled earth for more than hundered thousand years. Biblical histroy puts adam some 10 milleniums past. Our known history goes back to almost the same age. But who were they, living in caves, wearing only skin, oh they just learned to start a bonfire. They looked like humans, walking straight on two feet. but that is way past ten milleniums.

when did we first taste apple, oh no historical record. infalable prophet just made a mistake, he ate what, Apple. Our infalable father was very much falable, and luckily he fell for apple. A very correct mistake, isn't it, an apple a day keeps doctor away.

[Al Zulfiqar]

it is human tendency to put past well-loved figures on a pedestal and worship them or elevate them to such an extent that they assume superhuman qualities and proportions.

all the prophets that lived and all the imams were all made of flesh and bones. they must have been the best among men of their times in their character, integrity and actions, but they were still human. religions have tried to make sense of them and their legacies by building up imaginative fables, legends and stories embellished over centuries, every generation and every reciter adding his own 2 cents and 'interpretations', much like the events of kerbala have been adorned and decorated with incongrous and impossible details - the baar ragdas, hussain conversing with jibraeel, his horse neighing and talking, and most recently the 'new fact' of a child appearing in hussain's lap at the time of shahadat etc etc.

for those weak and accepting of heart and mind, these stories actually seem believable, but for those who strive to discern with their intellect, most of these fables seem amusing and a reflection of human gullibility, confusion and innocence. on the one hand they are a telling commentary on the state of human nature but on the other hand they also say much about the cunning, guile and evil intent of those who recite such highly charged stories to manipulate, provoke and exploit the gullible. this is basically what our clergy do, led by example from the top to psychologically brainwash the community and cement their own 'divine' status.

i firmy believe that prophets were completely ordinary human beings who did extraordinary things in their lives. that simple fact in itself makes them worth emulating and following, not all this crap about miracles and superhuman things falsely attributed to them.

[porus]

accountability,

Of course, there is a view supported by some Sunni authorities that Prophets were infallible only in offering religious guidance. In other matters, they were as fallible as you and I.

However, there is a problem with this view and that is to do with the integrity of scriptures like the Quran.

Quran mentions that Prophets have been granted 'isma' or inerrancy and are models for others to follow. In addition, the Quran mentions that Panjatan have the distinction of having all 'rijs' or unbelief removed from them and that they have been 'purified'.

With these qualities, they must be assumed to have abided in Allah all the time and would not have made errors that could be emulated or copied by others. In other words Allah's command to follow them would become questionable.

This is a question entirely of faith and belief. If you believed that Prophet erred then you cannot be certain that Quran is not in error. In that case you will have to abandon your belief that it is from Allah.

No doubt, Infallibility of a human is extremely difficult to accept and, if you are of an intellectual bent, it will severely test your faith.

Why did Muhammad marry Aaisha? Why did Ali make peace with Muawiya? Why did Hasan abdicate to Muawiyah? Why did Husain go to Karbala? Despite Shia explanations of divine nature of their decisions, lingering questions continue to vex us?

[ghulam muhammed]

Why did Muhammad marry Aaisha? Why did Ali make peace with Muawiya? Why did Hasan abdicate to Muawiyah? Why did Husain go to Karbala? Despite Shia explanations of divine nature of their decisions, lingering questions continue to vex us?

This is exactly what I have been asking all the time. The shias/DBs claim the Prophet (s.a.w.), Mola Ali (a.s.) and Panjatan Pak (a.s.) to be infallible and yet slyly accuse them of erring when their hidden agendas are at stake. There is a saying "Ek jhoot chhupane ke liye 100 jhoot bolne padte hai".

[anajmi]

If you believed that Prophet erred then you cannot be certain that Quran is not in error. In that case you will have to abandon your belief that it is from Allah.

You pick up right where you left off don't you? Still stuck in the same circular logic that I thought I had gotten you out of!! Some people just deserve to get vexed.

The Quran is not from the prophet (saw), it is from Allah. There is no need to believe in him to be infallible to believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah. Even porus agreed to this only a couple of days back!! Only Allah is infallible. And since Quran is the word of Allah, it cannot be in error!!

Remember, Allah sent the Quran to the prophet (saw) via Jibraeel (as). If we are to follow this circular logic of infallibility, then Jibraeel would have to be infallible too. Does the Quran talk about Jibraeel (as) being "purified"? Or are all angels infallible according to taawil? And we haven't even gotten to Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Uthman who are responsible for the current Quran.

Why did Muhammad marry Aaisha?

We believe that the prophet (saw) married Hazrat Aaisha because it was the command of Allah. Allah states in the Quran that the prophet (saw) doesn't do anything out of his own will!!

Everything else was just politics.

There!! That should clear it up for those that are not inclined towards idol worship.

[accountability]

Thankyou agains Sirs.
I better take the weekend off, I have some mistakes to make.

[Al Zulfiqar]

if you make mistakes, then just like syedna, you are INFALLIBLE!