Humsafar bhai & Reformist bhaiyon nu imtihaan

[anajmi]

Ibrahim asks, will there be an Imam in my Zurriyat? Answer (Yes), but Zalims will never be the Imam.

Which word(s) in the ayah translates to Answer (Yes) ??

Everything you posted is completely illogical and displays your ignorance so I won't comment on it. Even your translation of the Quran is wrong.

[Adam]

Which word(s) in the ayah translates to Answer (Yes) ??

That's why its in brackets.

Ibrahim asks, will I have Imams in my Zurriyat
Allah Says : Zalimeens will no get it

[anajmi]

So Allah hasn't answered the Question in the affirmative as you people claim he does, right? Shame on you for manipulating the words of Allah to suit your idol worship.

[porus]

Adam,

I have already agreed with two propositions in my previous postings:

1. There can be a Zalim from dhurriyat of an Imam. But he can not be an Imam. That is in line with 2:124.

2. There can be Mushriks in ancestry of Imam. (Historical inference)

Bohras do not spew laanats on Mushriks qua Mushriks.

Both father and mother of Imams must be from dhurriyat of non-Zaalims. That is why Quran attaches so much importance to Maryam and Bohras attach similar importance to Fatima.

Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and all subsequent Imams have Abu Bakr's blood in their veins. (In modern parlance, they carry Abu Bakr's genes.)

Thus, Abu Bakr should not have laanats hurled at him. It is like you are spewing laanats against your own Imams!

In fact, spewing laanats as a religious ritual has nothing to recommend it. It is hatred wrapped up in religious ritual. All religious rituals should for glorification and worship of Allah alone.

[progticide]

In fact, spewing laanats as a religious ritual has nothing to recommend it.

Refer Holy Quran, Surah Al Hijr, Ayat 34-35 [15:34-35]

This should correct your misconception. Henceforth, hope you would not comment on the practice of invoking Laanat.

[porus]

In fact, spewing laanats as a religious ritual has nothing to recommend it.

Refer Holy Quran, Surah Al Hijr, Ayat 34-35 [15:34-35]

This should correct your misconception. Henceforth, hope you would not comment on the practice of invoking Laanat.

Dai-worshipping mushrik quoting Quran to justify shirk!!

Nay, mushrik is claiming Allah is engaging in a religious ritual. And he will do what Allah Himself is doing. Well then, create the universe like Allah did.

[progticide]

Refer Holy Quran, Surah Al Hijr, Ayat 34-35 [15:34-35]

This should correct your misconception. Henceforth, hope you would not comment on the practice of invoking Laanat.

Dai-worshipping mushrik quoting Quran to justify shirk!!

Nay, mushrik is claiming Allah is engaging in a religious ritual. And he will do what Allah Himself is doing. Well then, create the universe like Allah did.

Prof. POO,
The biggest sign of a loser is that when you can't prove your point or refute others claim through facts and evidence, get into personal attack with third-class irrelevant comments and remarks, just as you are currently doing above.

Your boys are watching your miserable behaviour and consistently-degrading performance on this forum.

[Adam]

@PORUS

Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and all subsequent Imams have Abu Bakr's blood in their veins. (In modern parlance, they carry Abu Bakr's genes.)
Thus, Abu Bakr should not have laanats hurled at him. It is like you are spewing laanats against your own Imams!

Imamat from the Father is Imam to Imam.
Through the MUMINAH mother, her parents may have "others" blood.
Abu Bakrs issues are his own.
ولا ترز وازرة وزر اخرى

@PORUS - In reply to Progticides answer

Dai-worshipping mushrik quoting Quran to justify shirk!!
Nay, mushrik is claiming Allah is engaging in a religious ritual. And he will do what Allah Himself is doing. Well then, create the universe like Allah did.

Are you saying that only Allah can pray La'nat?
Or are you saying that La'nat shouldn't be said for anyone?

La'nat is a part of Islamic Dawoodi Bohra beliefs of Baraat. So live with it

The word La'nat has appeared in the Quran 40 times.

Instances where even "others" pray La'nat (along with Allah)
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَآ أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ ٱلْبَيِّنَٰتِ وَٱلْهُدَىٰ مِنۢ بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّٰهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِى ٱلْكِتَٰبِ ۙ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ ٱللَّٰعِنُونَ 2:159
إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ تَابُوا۟ وَأَصْلَحُوا۟ وَبَيَّنُوا۟ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ أَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَأَنَا ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ
2|161|إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ وَمَاتُوا۟ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةُ ٱللَّهِ وَٱلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
3|87|أُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ جَزَآؤُهُمْ أَنَّ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةَ ٱللَّهِ وَٱلْمَلَٰٓئِكَةِ وَٱلنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
Even the Anbiyas pray La'nat
5|78|لُعِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِنۢ بَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ عَلَىٰ لِسَانِ دَاوُۥدَ وَعِيسَى ٱبْنِ مَرْيَمَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا۟ وَّكَانُوا۟ يَعْتَدُونَ
33|68|رَبَّنَآ ءَاتِهِمْ ضِعْفَيْنِ مِنَ ٱلْعَذَابِ وَٱلْعَنْهُمْ لَعْنًۭا كَبِيرًۭا
24|23|إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ ٱلْمُحْصَنَٰتِ ٱلْغَٰفِلَٰتِ ٱلْمُؤْمِنَٰتِ لُعِنُوا۟ فِى ٱلدُّنْيَا وَٱلْءَاخِرَةِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌۭ
If La'nat can be recited for the above, then 1 2 3, and the murderes of the Panjatan can surely be.


La'nat is a part of Islamic beliefs.

[anajmi]

La'nat is a part of Islamic Dawoodi Bohra beliefs of Baraat. So live with it

Well, that is the problem with the Dawoodi Bohra beliefs. They are idiotic and those of us who do not want to live with this crap have decided to become progressives.

Now let us consider the ayah that Adam quotes and see how it incriminates him, his dai and the other abde idiots on this forum

2:159
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَى مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَـئِكَ يَلعَنُهُمُ اللّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

BEHOLD, as for those who suppress aught of the evidence of the truth and of the guidance which We have bestowed from on high, after We have made it clear unto mankind through the divine writ - these it is whom God will reject, and whom all who can judge will reject.

Who are the people who hide knowledge that Allah has revealed from on high? Who has hidden books and knowledge and claim that this knowledge cannot be shared openly? It is the Dawoodi Bohra Dai and his minions. These are the people whom God will reject and whom all who can judge will reject. Case closed!!

Now let us look at 2:160
إِلَّا ٱلَّذِينَ تَابُوا۟ وَأَصْلَحُوا۟ وَبَيَّنُوا۟ فَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ أَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَأَنَا ٱلتَّوَّابُ ٱلرَّحِيمُ
Excepted, however, shall be they that repent, and put themselves to rights, and make known the truth: and it is they whose repentance I shall accept-for I alone am the Acceptor of Repentance, the Dispenser of Grace.

So, unless the bohras repent, put themselves right and reveal everything that they have hidden, they will be punished.

[anajmi]

Also, we need to remember that sending Laanats on others through code words is not the mark of courage but the mark of cowardice. One abde idiot posted earlier that he spat on the graves of the first three khalifas of Islam. We should ask him if he has the courage to spit on any muslim alive, who considers those khalifas the greatest sahaba of the prophet (saw). He will probably shit in his pants before he spits on someone who can actually respond. This sending of laanats actually doesn't bother me in the least. Send as many laanats as you can because it doesn't affect the khalifas. If you read the history of Hazrat Utham and his last days you will realize that he was under the protection of Hazrat Ali and his two sons who were ready to lay down their lives for him. These abde idiots are nothing but a bunch of brain washed morons who will say laanat on Gabbar Singh if their Dai tells them to!!

[ghulam muhammed]

One abde idiot posted earlier that he spat on the graves of the first three khalifas of Islam. We should ask him if he has the courage to spit on any muslim alive, who considers those khalifas the greatest sahaba of the prophet (saw). He will probably shit in his pants before he spits on someone who can actually respond.

Bro anajmi,

Actually he shits in his pants even whilst viewing posts from porus as he has got a terrible complex/porus phobia. Hence he refers to porus as "Poo" which is actually the sound that emanates from his backside whenever he sees porus anywhere around !! He only forgets to add "rrrr" to "poo".

[porus]

Adam,

I have already agreed with two propositions in my previous postings:

1. There can be a Zalim from dhurriyat of an Imam. But he can not be an Imam. That is in line with 2:124.

2. There can be Mushriks in ancestry of Imam. (Historical inference)

Bohras do not spew laanats on Mushriks qua Mushriks.

I want to clarify that Mushriks in the above post are those in history of early Islam who were made aware of revelation but chose to remain idol-worshipers.

Those who were unaware of revelation cannot be termed Mushriks but simply Non-Muslims. So, please read the above as:

"2. There can be non-Muslims in ancestry of Imam. (Historical inference)

Bohras do not spew laanats on non-Muslims qua non-Muslims."

[ghulam muhammed]

GulamCould you please quote due references specifying the exact faitimid text/literature which subscribes to all of the above.
Daimul Islam, Uyoon al Akbar & Shar al Akhbar

There are plenty of cases wherein the quran is quoted but the interpretations are distorted hence kindly provide specific quotes from the above mentioned books in order to understand its true implications.

[porus]

I would like to comment on each of the ayat that Adam has posted to justify his cursing as a fundamental Bohra religious ritual. I will handle one ayat at a time in each post.

2:159 refers to those who would conceal revelation. On them is laanat of Allah and of laa’inoon.

(We need to know who laa’inoon are. For Bohras it is them.)

Now Abu Bakr and Umar were instrumental in preserving the Quran. So they cannot be accused of suppressing it. We have to look for another track for Bohras to justify cursing Abu Bakr.

According to Bohras, we can find it in his refusal to swear allegiance to Ali as the successor of Muhammad. It is a matter of debate why Muslims did not rise up against Abu Bakr to demand Ali’s investiture as Khalifa. However, according to Bohras, it appears that all Muslims in Madina suppressed that revelation and therefore they should all be cursed.

What is even more problematic is why Ali did not come out and say Abu Bakr’s investiture is against revelation. Remember, Ali was foremost in making sure that all Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman kept strictly within the confines of the Quran.

(Abu Bakr, along with Muhammad, is the progenitor of all Ismaili Imams. In cursing Abu Bakr, Bohras curse a forefather of their Imams!)

[ghulam muhammed]

"Hypocrisy" and "Double Standards" is deep rooted in the present dai and his abde followers. While they will make sure that lanats are showered on 3 khalifas and ummul mumenin punctually and religiously at every given occassion, they will spare no efforts in luring and felicitating the idol worshippers and arch enemies of ummah, the YAZID of today, Narendra Modi, L.K.Advani and Bal Thackerey. No wonder their alleged Islamic beliefs are viewed with suspicion !!

[porus]

I would like to comment on each of the ayat that Adam has posted to justify his cursing as a fundamental Bohra religious ritual. I will handle one ayat at a time in each post.

Now to ayat 2:161.

2:161 states that laanat of Allah, Malaa'ikat, and mankind is on those who are Kafirs, that is, those who conceal and reject revelation and die as Kafirs.

Again, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were instrumental in preserving the Quran and publishing it as we know it today. So this ayat cannot be used to send laanat on them.

However, Bohras believe that they conspired to suppress Allah's revelation that Ali is to be the successor of Muhammad. If succession of Ali is a revelation, it is not specified clearly in the Quran. However, some say that the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum was witnessed by nearly 70,000 Muslims. None of these raised voice against Abu Bakr's investiture? Were these people Muslims at all? If not, then they were Kafirs. Maybe Bohras should send laanat on all those who assembled at Ghadeer to listen to Prophet too!

That is a matter of historical interpretation. Can Abu Bakr be accused of being a Kafir or a Mushrik and invite laanat in accordance with 2:161? Clearly not.

(Abu Bakr, along with Muhammad, is the progenitor of all Ismaili Imams. In cursing Abu Bakr, Bohras curse a forefather of their Imams!)

[Muslim First]

Curse

Sunan of Abu-Dawud
No. 2406
Narrated AbuDharr

If anyone says in the morning: "O Allah! whatever oath I take, whatever word I speak, and whatever vow I take, Thine will precedes all that: whatever Thou willeth, occurs, and whatever Thou dost not will, dost not occur. O Allah! Pardon me and disregard me for it. O Allah! Whomsoever Thou sendest thine blessing, to him my blessing is due, and whomsoever thou cursest, to him my curse is due, “. Exemption from it will be granted to him that day.

No. 2304
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

Something of her was stolen, and she began to curse him (i.e. the thief). The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not lessen his sin.

No. 2302
Narrated Samurah ibn Jundub

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Do not invoke Allah's curse, Allah's anger, or Hell.

Shahih Muslim Hadeeth
No.861
Narrated Awf ibn Malik

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: The best of your rulers are those whom you love and who love you, who invoke God's blessings upon you and you invoke His blessings upon them. And the worst of your rulers are those whom you hate and who hate you and whom you curse and who curse you. It was asked (by those present): Shouldn't we overthrow them with the help of the sword? He said: No, as long as they establish prayer among you. If you then find anything detestable in them, you should hate their administration, but do not withdraw yourselves from their obedience.

No.1192
Narrated AbuHurayrah

It was said to Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) Invoke curse upon the polytheists, whereupon he said: I have not been sent as the invoker of curse, but "I have been sent as mercy."

No.1191
Narrated AbudDarda

When it was night AbdulMalik got up and called for the servant. It seemed as if he (the servant) was late (in responding to his call), so he (AbdulMalik) invoked curse upon him, and when it was morning Umm Darda' said to him: I heard you cursing your servant during the night when you called him, and she said: I heard AbudDarda' as saying that Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: The invoker of curse would neither be intercessor nor witness on the Day of Resurrection.

No.1190
Narrated AbuHurayrah

Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: It does not seem proper for Siddiq that he should be an invoker of curse. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of AbuKurayb with the same chain of transmitters.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A believer does not taunt, curse, abuse or talk indecently.
Transmitted by Tirmidhi. No.544

[Muslim First]

porus
However, Bohras believe that they conspired to suppress Allah's revelation that Ali is to be the successor of Muhammad. If succession of Ali is a revelation, it is not specified clearly in the Quran. However, some say that the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum was witnessed by nearly 70,000 Muslims. None of these raised voice against Abu Bakr's investiture? Were these people Muslims at all? If not, then they were Kafirs. Maybe Bohras should send laanat on all those who assembled at Ghadeer to listen to Prophet too!

If succession of Ali is a revelation, it is not specified clearly in the Quran.
If vilayat was to be foundation of Islam then why this onmmission?

However, some say that the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum was witnessed by nearly 70,000 Muslims. None of these raised voice against Abu Bakr's investiture? Were these people Muslims at all? If not, then they were Kafirs
Sunni view of Ghadeer-e-Khum
http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/ ... dir-khumm/

[porus]

I would like to comment on each of the ayat that Adam has posted to justify his cursing as a fundamental Bohra religious ritual. I will handle one ayat at a time in each post.

Now to ayat 3:87.

3:87 states that "Their reward is that the laanat of Allah, Malaa'ikat and the whole of mankind is upon them."

To whom does the pronoun 'their' refer? For that you have to read ayat 3:86. It refers to those who broke faith with Rasulullah and turned away from the scripture that was revealed to him. (This is a case of an abde quoting ayat out of context)

Did Abu Bakr turn away from revelation? Clearly no. He preserved it. So again, Bohras can only point to succession of Abu Bakr against Ali, which they consider a revelation. However they cannot point to anything within the written Quran that Abu Bakr turned against. So clearly, 3:87 cannot be used to send laanat to Abu Bakr.

(Abu Bakr, along with Muhammad, is the progenitor of all Ismaili Imams. In cursing Abu Bakr, Bohras curse a forefather of their Imams!)

[Muslim First]

porus
However, some say that the event of Ghadeer-e-Khum was witnessed by nearly 70,000 Muslims. None of these raised voice against Abu Bakr's investiture?

Here is account of last day of Prophet SAW, I transcribed from:
Sirat_Ibn_Hisham
Page 286
Last paragraph

Abdullah Ibn Abbas Said that on the same day Ali Ibn Talib went out to people after being with the Prophet SAW, so they asked him how the Prophet SAW was doing. “Thanks to Allah, he has recovered” he replied. Al-Abbas took him by the hand saying, “O Ali, I swear by Allah that I can tell it is death in the Prophet SAW‘s face, as I used to see in the faces of the sons of Abdul-Muttalib. So let us go to the Prophet SAW. In case that authority is to be within us, we will know it, and in case it is to be with others we will ask him to enjoin the people to treat us well,” Ali said, “By Allah, I will not do so. If it is refrained from us, the Prophet SAW none after him will give it to us.” The Prophet SAW died when the noon heat of that day increased.

My comment:
If Prophet SAW had appointed Hz Ali as Imam at Gadhir Khum, why whole Madina did not know about it?
Maulana Burhan appointed Maulai Mufaddal as 53rd dai and every Bohra Men, Womwn and child knows about it.

[porus]

Brother Muslim First,

Adam has not used the episode of Ghadeer or succession to Rasulullah as justification for invoking laanat on Abu Bakr. He has used the Quran to do so.

My intention here is limited. That is to show that Adam and other abdes are not justified in cursing Abu Bakr by citing the Quran.

While Adam has not used the Ghadeer episode as his ammunition, I wonder if he will use it to justify cursing a forefather of his Imams.

In most cases, Quran uses laanats on people in the past, that is, it is doing so as part of an exemplary history lesson. I have yet to come across an ayat which commands or encourages Muslims to send curses in the same way that it commands prayers and zakaat. For example, could an ayat similar to ayat 2:3 be found that would say:

"al-ladheena yuminoona bil ghaybi, wa yuqimoonaa salaata........wa ya'lanu (curse) al-kafiroon"?

[ozmujaheed]

A whole topic discussing that cursing and hatred is core to the faith ? Why is it we are so preoccupied by this negativity. Curse this one and curse that one.
Abdes proudly stating and barat is part of their Deen.

Have you noticed that what appeals to a non Muslim about Sunni led message, Equality, non superstition, faith in a nonform super force that is Allah , practicality of the Islamic rituals,

While fatimid is based on rivalry, exile, blind faith, monarchy, human worship, sacrifice...the exact opposite?

[porus]

Abdes proudly stating and barat is part of their Deen.

It is instructive to ponder over the first few verses of the Surat al-Tawba (sura 9), which abdes claim is their justification for baraat from those who would not worship their Dai and his family.

ayat 1 declares that Allah and his messenger have annulled the treaty they had with Mushriks.

ayat 2 announces that treaty will hold for 4 months

ayat 3 states that on the day of Hajj* (when the Sura was first conveyed to Muslims by Ali ibn Abi Talib in Masjid al-Haram in Kaaba), an opportunity is given to Mushriks to repent.

Here we have a situation where Mushriks are issuing 'baraat' against those who see problems with those performing sujood to humans. That is quite a reversal of a history lesson from the Quran.

And what of its use in justifying laanat against Abu Bakr?

* When the sura was revealed, Rasulullah had charged Abu Bakr to lead the Hajj and also to proclaim the sura on the day of Hajj. However, Rasulullah was later commanded that only Ali can proclaim it. He therefore asked Ali to catch up with Abu Bakr and inform him of the decision. Abu Bakr said that he would follow Allah and his Messenger without question and handed over the right to proclaim the Sura to Ali. It was Ali that announced the Sura on the day of Hajj. However Abu Bakr retained the responsibility for being in overall charge of Hajj.

Here we have an instance, concerning revelation of the surat al-Tawba, of Abu Bakr showing total devotion to Allah and Rasulullah and, ironically, it is the same sura that abdes use to justify cursing the forefather of their Imams.

[level_headed]

Prophet(SAW) was describing the day of resurrection where a group of people would be brought close to him. He would recognize them as his sahabas and they would be led to the fire. When the Prophet would ask that they were his sahabas and what wrong did they do. He would be told that they turned renegade after you departed

[Muslim First]

Prophet(SAW) was describing the day of resurrection where a group of people would be brought close to him. He would recognize them as his sahabas and they would be led to the fire. When the Prophet would ask that they were his sahabas and what wrong did they do. He would be told that they turned renegade after you departed

Reference please

[Adam]

The above ayats prove
1. La'nat is the act of Allah (also) - If you think its hatred, then you're going against the act of Allah.
2. Anbya and people pray La'nat.
3. La'nat on Kafirs and Zalims

Whoever we pray la'nat on, we consider them Kafirs and Zalims.

[anajmi]

However, Rasulullah was later commanded that only Ali can proclaim it. He therefore asked Ali to catch up with Abu Bakr and inform him of the decision.

And what was the reason for this change? The prophet (saw) was told that such an announcement, unless made by a family member of the leader will not hold much water amongst the Arabs. Hence Hazrat Ali was asked to make this announcement.

Whoever we pray la'nat on, we consider them Kafirs and Zalims.

As has been shown time and time again, what you consider is irrelevant, unIslamic and against the Quran. Much evidence has been provided but you continue and prefer to be a mushrik who follows a mushrik while rejecting the truth.

[Muslim First]

The above ayats prove
1. La'nat is the act of Allah (also) - If you think its hatred, then you're going against the act of Allah.
2. Anbya and people pray La'nat.
3. La'nat on Kafirs and Zalims
Whoever we pray la'nat on, we consider them Kafirs and Zalims.

La'anat is a hateful act therefore it is not prayer.
You do not pray La'anat, you just say it,
Anajmi
Adam is Feet kissing. Grave and and human worshipping abde.
La'nat is 8the foundation of Shia Islam. You cannot change his mind.

[Hanif]

9. Fatimi Dawat consider Imam Tayyeb (A) as the true Imam and send "Lanat" on his enemies (Isnashari Imams after Hazrat Moosa Kazim) - do you and the Reform Movement do the same?

How about the Nizari Imams? Do you send lanat on them too?

[ghulam muhammed]

Abdes and their masters are only capable of sending lanats to the ones who have passed away like the 3 khalifas and yazid but their hypocricy and double standards is at full display when they drape shawls and felicitate the yazids of today like Narendra Modi, L.K.Advani and Bal Thackerey.